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Post by Sarcasman on Nov 8, 2018 12:15:47 GMT -5
So you're telling me that if the Giants get their next QB over the next two years and him, OBJ, and Saquon spend years playing at a high level...this was still stupid? The other possibility is we did take a QB and they turned out great and we're a good team that way. More than one way to build a team. QBs come out every year and every year there's good ones and bad ones. Supposed weak QB classes produce great ones (Goff, Wentz), some supposed weak QB classes suck, strong QB classes flame out, and strong QB classes do great. you are forgetting the years now wasted. obj in his prime, and rookie qb growing pains, may take a year or so. Do years wasted count more for guys who have played on Super Bowl winning teams vs those who haven't? Certainly it would make sense since facing and conquering a challenge like that would indicate a likelihood of doing so again as opposed to those that have never done so. There must be a formula for that, right?
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Post by jaymas on Nov 8, 2018 12:53:07 GMT -5
8 games and this is a fact... already... Saquon Barkley is 2nd in yards rushing, for rookies, behind an undrafted Phillip Lindsay. Not saying Lindsay is better or anything, but can we slow down on crowning Barkley anything yet? He is a phenomenal talent, and we all know "with a better OL he would dominate more ect" but lets see where his running style takes us beyond more than 8 games before saying he is the best overall player in the draft. Just so I get this straight.....Giants fans can't crown Barkley yet after 8 games of actual NFL football but you can assuredly say that the NFL QB class of NEXT year isn't as good as last year or two years from now.....and that Herbert is the next Blake Bortles.....interesting. So no one is allowed to make assumptions except you? I also liked how you cherry picked Lindsey's numbers. Forgot to mention Barkley has played in one less game and still has 300 more all purpose yards but hey as we all know on here whatever fits your narrative. These draft debates are a riot because unless someone has a career ending injury you won't be able to truly quantify pick or non-pick until the end of the player's career. Prior to the Giants winning 2 SB's with Manning the prevailing opinion was the Chargers fleeced the Giants with their draft day trade. Just a perfect post.
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Post by Blue Hulk on Nov 8, 2018 13:14:35 GMT -5
I meant. If you wanted Barkley, then you better hope Herbert is Marino because we passed up on a smooth QB transition. Harder to find a good QB than a RB... But that would presume that more than one of the QBs last year will be the new Marino otherwise what you're saying makes no sense at all. So, since Mayfield was gone, who is the other QB from last year that is the next Marino? In the present, the top 3-4 QB’s are an improvement from a gun shy QB who makes business decisions when faced with a pass rush Eli is scared
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 17:08:08 GMT -5
In the present, the top 3-4 QB’s are an improvement from a gun shy QB who makes business decisions when faced with a pass rush Eli is scared Thanks for the news update. Your top "3-4QB's as you say are not playing behind this O line. I doubt any of them have been hit like Eli. I doubt you've watch all the Jet, Browns or Cardinals games to make this statement. Plus none of the other QBs are a statue like Eli so they move a way from sacks/hits. In other words the Jets oline isn't very good from what I've seen and I've seen Mayfield moving around a lot behind that oline.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2018 17:11:22 GMT -5
you are forgetting the years now wasted. obj in his prime, and rookie qb growing pains, may take a year or so. Years wasted? What years? We should have drafted a QB in 14? Wouldn't have OBJ...in 13? One full season removed from a SB win? If we draft one this year and he's good...we will have wasted 1 season, which may have been wasted anyway. Sounds more like you're frustrated with the roster decay over time from the last super bowl win and not the fact we didn't draft a QB this year, because that single decision has absolutely nothing to do with "wasting" years for the Giants or OBJ years. you are living through the wasted years now. we would be inserting the qb now as to get some growing pains over with. you said in your other post maybe this next draft or the one after, if this one we dont like a qb. then growing pains, this could be another 2 1/2 year process or more. so yes them not seeing eli was near done last season hurt the org and set us back.
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Post by Kase1 on Nov 8, 2018 18:08:25 GMT -5
To be honest, Herberts biggest weakness is his field vision and how he works through his progressions. Other than that he has alot of potential, he's got a good arm, he's very athletic, and has pretty decent accuracy. Im not a big Herbert guy but I would understand drafting him, just like i would understand NOT drafting him. He's got skill, but the way he stares down his target and usually tosses it after 1 read kind of irks me. I want a qb who can read the defense and see who the open man is then hit him, not just lock on to 1 guy and force it in no matter what
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Post by 3days on Nov 8, 2018 20:11:29 GMT -5
For what it is worth, Herbert is not the only QB that is worthy of a first rounder. The dude from NC State seems pretty good to me.
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Post by TCHOF on Nov 8, 2018 20:32:18 GMT -5
For what it is worth, Herbert is not the only QB that is worthy of a first rounder. The dude from NC State seems pretty good to me. He’s not a first rounder. Doesn’t have an NFL arm
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Post by jaymas on Nov 8, 2018 20:41:57 GMT -5
Years wasted? What years? We should have drafted a QB in 14? Wouldn't have OBJ...in 13? One full season removed from a SB win? If we draft one this year and he's good...we will have wasted 1 season, which may have been wasted anyway. Sounds more like you're frustrated with the roster decay over time from the last super bowl win and not the fact we didn't draft a QB this year, because that single decision has absolutely nothing to do with "wasting" years for the Giants or OBJ years. you are living through the wasted years now. we would be inserting the qb now as to get some growing pains over with. you said in your other post maybe this next draft or the one after, if this one we dont like a qb. then growing pains, this could be another 2 1/2 year process or more. so yes them not seeing eli was near done last season hurt the org and set us back. What if the QB is effective in part of his first year or mvp caliber in his 2nd like Wentz? What if the QB we drafted this year wasn't effective until the playoffs of his 4th full season like Eli? There are waaaaaaay too many variables to make these statements. Maybe I blame the FO last year for not making the offer sweet enough to get Mahomes? That would really have us set right now. Darn it Reese.
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Post by imgrate on Nov 8, 2018 21:08:53 GMT -5
All of you "Draft Barkley fans" had better pray that kid is the 2nd coming of Dan Marino or else the Barkley pick will look really foolish from QB hell Have a nice space carved out in my sig for you to tell us which of those young men we should have taken...now is your chance. Im not the guy you quoted, but predraft I said if they don't like a QB then trade back. A high paid running back doesn't do you any good. So, to not hedge my bet...I would have taken Darnold if no trade was available (or honestly denzel ward or a pass rusher, never a RB)
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Post by jaymas on Nov 8, 2018 21:13:19 GMT -5
Have a nice space carved out in my sig for you to tell us which of those young men we should have taken...now is your chance. Im not the guy you quoted, but predraft I said if they don't like a QB then trade back. A high paid running back doesn't do you any good. So, to not hedge my bet...I would have taken Darnold if no trade was available (or honestly denzel ward or a pass rusher, never a RB) Is he just a running back though? Or is he a multi dimensional threat that affects the game as much in the passing game as the running game?
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Post by imgrate on Nov 8, 2018 21:19:34 GMT -5
Im not the guy you quoted, but predraft I said if they don't like a QB then trade back. A high paid running back doesn't do you any good. So, to not hedge my bet...I would have taken Darnold if no trade was available (or honestly denzel ward or a pass rusher, never a RB) Is he just a running back though? Or is he a multi dimensional threat that affects the game as much in the passing game as the running game? He's a top running back getting paid as a top running back. Running backs don't win you super bowls. Marshawn Lynch is the only top 5 RB in any given year to win a super bowl in the last 10-15 years. Then look how teams do when they have a high paid RB on the team. AP, McCoy, Jamaal Charles, Davonte Freeman, all their teams struggled after paying them.
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Post by Sarcasman on Nov 9, 2018 2:07:51 GMT -5
But that would presume that more than one of the QBs last year will be the new Marino otherwise what you're saying makes no sense at all. So, since Mayfield was gone, who is the other QB from last year that is the next Marino? In the present, the top 3-4 QB’s are an improvement from a gun shy QB who makes business decisions when faced with a pass rush Eli is scared Yeah, but you can't draft 3 or 4 can you?
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Post by titowooten on Nov 9, 2018 2:23:38 GMT -5
All the top guys from last years class were touted as finished products ready to play in the NFL and all are struggling like you'd expect.
Only Rosen and Mayfield were considered "NFL Ready" by most analysts. Many said that Darnold would need time to adjust and to work on ball security which is exactly what we're seeing. Allen was also considered to be fairly raw but Buffalo's QB situtation is so dire that he is legitimately their best option when healthy. Also for everyone saying that these guys are busts already is ridiculous. Sure nobody is lighting the league on fire like Watson or Mahomes (2nd year but first year starter) but nobody thought Goff or Wentz would be MVP canddiates their first year in the league and I'm pretty sure we all remember how abysmal Eli's first season as a starter was. Maybe we did dodge a bullet by skipping QB this past draft and taking Barkley but for a GM who was so concerned about avoiding "quarterback hell" it seems that's where we're headed if we're not there already. None of the 2019 QBs are exactly can't miss prospects and if we wait until 2020 to grab one it's unlikely we'll have a top 5 draft pick again so we'd have to mortgage our future to get one of the top 2 or 3 guys.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 8:41:36 GMT -5
I doubt you've watch all the Jet, Browns or Cardinals games to make this statement. Plus none of the other QBs are a statue like Eli so they move a way from sacks/hits. In other words the Jets oline isn't very good from what I've seen and I've seen Mayfield moving around a lot behind that oline. You'ed be wrong. There is no avoiding the sacks our oline gives up. Jail break from all Directions LOL. Only thing to do is back pedal and throw it away.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 12:55:31 GMT -5
I doubt you've watch all the Jet, Browns or Cardinals games to make this statement. Plus none of the other QBs are a statue like Eli so they move a way from sacks/hits. In other words the Jets oline isn't very good from what I've seen and I've seen Mayfield moving around a lot behind that oline. You'ed be wrong. No I'm not.
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Post by jaymas on Nov 9, 2018 13:00:57 GMT -5
Is he just a running back though? Or is he a multi dimensional threat that affects the game as much in the passing game as the running game? He's a top running back getting paid as a top running back. Running backs don't win you super bowls. Marshawn Lynch is the only top 5 RB in any given year to win a super bowl in the last 10-15 years. Then look how teams do when they have a high paid RB on the team. AP, McCoy, Jamaal Charles, Davonte Freeman, all their teams struggled after paying them. You're just taking seemingly disparate variables and trying to tie them together with no proof of statistical significance.
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Post by jaymas on Nov 9, 2018 13:03:19 GMT -5
He's a top running back getting paid as a top running back. Running backs don't win you super bowls. Marshawn Lynch is the only top 5 RB in any given year to win a super bowl in the last 10-15 years. Then look how teams do when they have a high paid RB on the team. AP, McCoy, Jamaal Charles, Davonte Freeman, all their teams struggled after paying them. You're just taking seemingly disparate variables and trying to tie them together with no proof of statistical significance. Also, all of the running backs you mentioned we're significant contributors to playoff teams. And any struggles can most certainly be tied to other things that make more sense.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 14:03:23 GMT -5
All the top guys from last years class were touted as finished products ready to play in the NFL and all are struggling like you'd expect.
Only Rosen and Mayfield were considered "NFL Ready" by most analysts. Many said that Darnold would need time to adjust and to work on ball security which is exactly what we're seeing. Allen was also considered to be fairly raw but Buffalo's QB situtation is so dire that he is legitimately their best option when healthy. Also for everyone saying that these guys are busts already is ridiculous. Sure nobody is lighting the league on fire like Watson or Mahomes (2nd year but first year starter) but nobody thought Goff or Wentz would be MVP canddiates their first year in the league and I'm pretty sure we all remember how abysmal Eli's first season as a starter was. Maybe we did dodge a bullet by skipping QB this past draft and taking Barkley but for a GM who was so concerned about avoiding "quarterback hell" it seems that's where we're headed if we're not there already. None of the 2019 QBs are exactly can't miss prospects and if we wait until 2020 to grab one it's unlikely we'll have a top 5 draft pick again so we'd have to mortgage our future to get one of the top 2 or 3 guys. Why wasn't Darnold NFL ready? He threw 31 TD and 9 INT in 2016 and was talked about as being the #1 pick. It's 8 games in but I honestly feel like there are QB already like him and there will be more. Colleges are just not producing HOF caliber QB these days.
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Post by Morehead State on Nov 9, 2018 14:06:13 GMT -5
There is no avoiding the sacks our oline gives up. Jail break from all Directions LOL. Only thing to do is back pedal and throw it away. But when Eli was one of the least sacked QB's in the NFL you guys said that didn't mean anything.
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Post by brownelvis54 on Nov 9, 2018 14:53:16 GMT -5
This QB class reminds of the one where EJ Manuel was the first QB taken off the board. yuck
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 17:46:46 GMT -5
There is no avoiding the sacks our oline gives up. Jail break from all Directions LOL. Only thing to do is back pedal and throw it away. But when Eli was one of the least sacked QB's in the NFL you guys said that didn't mean anything. That's because he got rid of the ball quickly. This year he's been trying to hang in or the sacks come fast.
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