|
Post by Kase1 on Aug 20, 2019 17:17:20 GMT -5
I think we are going to have a VERY good defense in a year or 2.
This upcoming season, I see us having alot of learning experiences. We have all 1st or 2nd year players other than Bethea, Ogletree, and Golden starting. The potential is TOTALLY there, but id 'pump the breaks' before claiming we have a top defense in 2019.
As long as they show improvement as the season wears on, I'll be happy
|
|
|
Post by giantlegacy on Aug 20, 2019 17:18:57 GMT -5
Let me ask you (and when I mean you I mean everyone,I just happen to be quoting you) Does anyone actually expect the pass rush to be any worse than the previous years? I'd rather give all the kids (with the 2 plug in stop gaps Golden and Martin)a chance to at the very least improve on our pass rush and at a fraction of what we were paying others,setting a baseline for our unit and seeing if we need to spend a major resource next offseason I think they will be mediocre at best. At the end of the day talent trumps all, and we don’t have the horses to say for a fact right now they will be improved. Next year they better invest heavily in improving the pass rush. We won two titles in ‘07,’11 with guys who can get after the QB. Let me ask you this as well I see an eerie similarity between our pass rushers and our recievers in that both position groups are quite similar in the way that there are a lot of ??s on how good both units are and both have a lot of youth and unproven players and the ones that we have haven't been anything more than above average for a year or 2 at best. Not trying to hijack this but to me this is exactly the reason we are a 6-10 team and both correlate in a way. Its interesting that people who say we are deficient on one side are more than happy with the other side,and vice a versa. I'm letting this play out before I say we need a massive upgrade (and both sides) and let the kids play and hopefully develop
|
|
|
Post by giantlegacy on Aug 20, 2019 17:21:42 GMT -5
I think we are going to have a VERY good defense in a year or 2. This upcoming season, I see us having alot of learning experiences. We have all 1st or 2nd year players other than Bethea, Ogletree, and Golden starting. The potential is TOTALLY there, but id 'pump the breaks' before claiming we have a top defense in 2019. As long as they show improvement as the season wears on, I'll be happy Yep 2020 is the target year It's going to be frustrating early when we can't make a key stop or we have to win shootouts ake we don't have the firepower to match... Again I tend to think the defense starts to come together right at the time Jones starts to really get in an groove and we actually this year get a preview of 2020 ..
|
|
|
Post by Kruunch on Aug 20, 2019 17:24:33 GMT -5
I think they will be mediocre at best. At the end of the day talent trumps all, and we don’t have the horses to say for a fact right now they will be improved. Next year they better invest heavily in improving the pass rush. We won two titles in ‘07,’11 with guys who can get after the QB. Let me ask you this as well I see an eerie similarity between our pass rushers and our recievers in that both position groups are quite similar in the way that there are a lot of ??s on how good both units are and both have a lot of youth and unproven players and the ones that we have haven't been anything more than above average for a year or 2 at best. Not trying to hijack this but to me this is exactly the reason we are a 6-10 team and both correlate in a way. Its interesting that people who say we are deficient on one side are more than happy with the other side,and vice a versa. I'm letting this play out before I say we need a massive upgrade (and both sides) and let the kids play and hopefully develop This team has question marks across the board. Outside of Barkley what position can anyone feel like we have a strength over an opponent? I still believe in having g a good pass rush and running the ball are key to winning in this league. Of course the QB play is very crucial, but it has been proven time and time again run the ball and get after the QB you will win more than you lose.
|
|
|
Post by GameTime on Aug 20, 2019 17:28:49 GMT -5
Let me ask you this as well I see an eerie similarity between our pass rushers and our recievers in that both position groups are quite similar in the way that there are a lot of ??s on how good both units are and both have a lot of youth and unproven players and the ones that we have haven't been anything more than above average for a year or 2 at best. Not trying to hijack this but to me this is exactly the reason we are a 6-10 team and both correlate in a way. Its interesting that people who say we are deficient on one side are more than happy with the other side,and vice a versa. I'm letting this play out before I say we need a massive upgrade (and both sides) and let the kids play and hopefully develop This team has question marks across the board. Outside of Barkley what position can anyone feel like we have a strength over an opponent? I still believe in having g a good pass rush and running the ball are key to winning in this league. Of course the QB play is very crucial, but it has been proven time and time again run the ball and get after the QB you will win more than you lose. Long Snapper Kicker Punter
|
|
|
Post by giantlegacy on Aug 20, 2019 17:40:17 GMT -5
Let me ask you this as well I see an eerie similarity between our pass rushers and our recievers in that both position groups are quite similar in the way that there are a lot of ??s on how good both units are and both have a lot of youth and unproven players and the ones that we have haven't been anything more than above average for a year or 2 at best. Not trying to hijack this but to me this is exactly the reason we are a 6-10 team and both correlate in a way. Its interesting that people who say we are deficient on one side are more than happy with the other side,and vice a versa. I'm letting this play out before I say we need a massive upgrade (and both sides) and let the kids play and hopefully develop This team has question marks across the board. Outside of Barkley what position can anyone feel like we have a strength over an opponent? I still believe in having g a good pass rush and running the ball are key to winning in this league. Of course the QB play is very crucial, but it has been proven time and time again run the ball and get after the QB you will win more than you lose. If you can't pass the ball you can't run it.Period. All these "run heavy" teams(run heavy these days still means passing more than 50% of the time )can because they have legit passing attacks that open up the underbelly of the defense. Both your superbowl contestants last year ran it in the playoffs because teams were frightened of their passing attacks and rightfully exploited this . The titans proved what happens when teams don't respect your passing attack because you dont have one last game of the year vs the Colts,and when a team like this gets down by 2 scores against a team that can light it up passing AND can run it its over...
|
|
|
Post by TEM on Aug 20, 2019 18:32:55 GMT -5
Bettcher's blitzing is "exotic", and he likes bringing pressure from the secondary and other odd angles. DLaw up front is a game changer to me, and if he's a 2+ down lineman and stays healthy that's going to disrupt many pockets. That's going to free up lanes for the other guys and I think we're in for feast/famine with this group early. The will make mistakes, missed assignments and such, but also their athleticism will come through on drive stoppers and TOs. I am actually anticipating quite a few more defensive highlights from this group this year. That is is whole stick . He could not do it last season . What his specialty was suppose to be, and he did not deliver, . The difference is in AZ he had a stud DE in Chandler Jones that The OC had to contend with . IMO: that is what freed up his Exotic Packages. Without that pass rusher his blitz shots were duds,
|
|
|
Post by TEM on Aug 20, 2019 18:36:19 GMT -5
We have no one on our Defense that can be claimed to be a top of the heap Defensive player in the league. Most teams have at least one 1. Seems like a big heap lol. Exactly I want to see if this DC can use what he has and win .
|
|
|
Post by TEM on Aug 20, 2019 18:41:02 GMT -5
We have no one on our Defense that can be claimed to be a top of the heap Defensive player in the league. Most teams have at least one 1. To tell you the truth I could not even tell you who the best player on this defense is. Maybe Ogletree? This Defense will come down to this. How inventive the DC is a utilizing the skills of the 11 on the field. The 3 you mentioned had a combined total of 13 sacks last year, 4 4 and 5.5 All of these guys alone had 13 or more. Aaron Donald LAR 21 J.J. Watt Hou 16 Chis Jones KC 15 Danielle Hunter MIN 15 Von Miller DEN 15 Myles Garrett CLE 14 Frank Clark SEA 14 Dee Ford KC 14 Chandler Jones ARI 13 Ryan Kerrigan WAS 13 T.J. Watt PIT 13 Khalil Mack CHI 13 Jason Pierre-Paul***** TB 13 Here is the rest of the list of players with double Digit sacks DeForest Buckner SF 12 Bradley Chubb DEN 12 Cameron Jordan NO 12 Calais Campbell JAX 11 Fletcher Cox PHI 11 Kyler Fackrell GB 11 Demarcus Lawrence DAL11 Jarran Reed SEA 11 Geno Atkins CIN 10 Yannick Ngakoue JAX 10 Here are guys with more then 6 Mario Addison CAR 9 Denico Autry IND 9 Michael Bennett PHI 9 Jadeveon Clowney HOU 9 Justin Houston KC 9 Za'Darius Smith BAL 9 Jonathan Allen WAS 8 Carlos Dunlap CIN 8 Cameron Heyward PIT 8 Sheldon Rankins NO 8 Trey Flowers NE 8 Akiem Hicks CHI 8 Matthew Ioannidis WAS 8 Romeo Okwara**** DET 8 Henry Anderson NYJ 7 Jurrell Casey TEN 7 Jerry Hughes BUF 7 Melvin Ingram LAC 7 Jordan Jenkins NYJ 7 Matt Judon BAL 7 Devon Kennard*** DET 7 Darius Leonard IND 7 Takkarist McKinley ALT 7 Terrell Suggs BAL 7 Olivier Vernon**** CLE 7 We are not even in ball park in individual sack production I hope it is not be those 3 guys that are counted on to hold the egg basket. It better be all 11 on the field playing at a high level . Because if they "all" don't. It will be a long season. Only 1 of the players you listed with 10 or more sacks made it to the SB. I think our team, as a whole, needs to get to the 40 range to be respectable. Between the new players we've added and a second year in Bettcher's system, I think we'll get there. I think the improved secondary, especially, will make that doable because we should be less vulnerable to quick slant and over the middle passes that saved our opponents on third down in the past - more of those routes will be covered giving us more of a chance to get to the QB on those downs. Roughly a 1/2 sack a game will do it. I hope you are correct because What I witnessed form Our starting front 7 so far this preseason is a continuation of what his system produces last season. Don't get me wrong . i do not think it is lack of talent .I believe it is the DC abilities to understand what he has and how to get the most out of that. Where I think the problem was last season. 40? I will be surprised if we match what we did last season. I think or O has the ability to be good. Like I said if all 11 on the field on D are not playing at high level . It will be a long season for them .
|
|
|
Post by piddy283 on Aug 20, 2019 19:08:25 GMT -5
Bettcher's blitzing is "exotic", and he likes bringing pressure from the secondary and other odd angles. DLaw up front is a game changer to me, and if he's a 2+ down lineman and stays healthy that's going to disrupt many pockets. That's going to free up lanes for the other guys and I think we're in for feast/famine with this group early. The will make mistakes, missed assignments and such, but also their athleticism will come through on drive stoppers and TOs. I am actually anticipating quite a few more defensive highlights from this group this year. This. I feel the folks who complained about this pick didn't actually watch Lawrence play. The kid is a monster and isn't just a "run stuffing" NT. He consistently collapses the pocket in the passing game and demands double teams. His presence alone should have a positive effect on the entire defense. TEM - Nice research on the sacks. I don't know if we have that player on our roster at this time, but I'm also not sure it's needed. As desertash mentions, and as I alluded to earlier, Bettcher's scheme is just different than what most of us seem to be used to. Blitzes will come from everywhere, and our DB's are going to be active. We may have 8 people with 5+ sacks, rather than 1 or 2 guys with double digit sacks. I could be wrong, but I think our defense is going to be real fun to watch this year.
|
|
|
Post by giantlegacy on Aug 20, 2019 19:28:29 GMT -5
Bettcher's blitzing is "exotic", and he likes bringing pressure from the secondary and other odd angles. DLaw up front is a game changer to me, and if he's a 2+ down lineman and stays healthy that's going to disrupt many pockets. That's going to free up lanes for the other guys and I think we're in for feast/famine with this group early. The will make mistakes, missed assignments and such, but also their athleticism will come through on drive stoppers and TOs. I am actually anticipating quite a few more defensive highlights from this group this year. This. I feel the folks who complained about this pick didn't actually watch Lawrence play. The kid is a monster and isn't just a "run stuffing" NT. He consistently collapses the pocket in the passing game and demands double teams. His presence alone should have a positive effect on the entire defense. TEM - Nice research on the sacks. I don't know if we have that player on our roster at this time, but I'm also not sure it's needed. As desertash mentions, and as I alluded to earlier, Bettcher's scheme is just different than what most of us seem to be used to. Blitzes will come from everywhere, and our DB's are going to be active. We may have 8 people with 5+ sacks, rather than 1 or 2 guys with double digit sacks. I could be wrong, but I think our defense is going to be real fun to watch this year. Betcher is going to move all 3 d linemen around like pieces,they probably find the weak link on the line of scrimmage and put Lawrence there which now forces drama up front .. The goal is for as few guys up front to at the very least stalemate the 5 o linemen,because in this case even a stalemate isn't win for our defense provided the 2nd level players correctly read and react to what's going on and play fundamentally sound
|
|
|
Post by TEM on Aug 20, 2019 19:41:44 GMT -5
Bettcher's blitzing is "exotic", and he likes bringing pressure from the secondary and other odd angles. DLaw up front is a game changer to me, and if he's a 2+ down lineman and stays healthy that's going to disrupt many pockets. That's going to free up lanes for the other guys and I think we're in for feast/famine with this group early. The will make mistakes, missed assignments and such, but also their athleticism will come through on drive stoppers and TOs. I am actually anticipating quite a few more defensive highlights from this group this year. This. I feel the folks who complained about this pick didn't actually watch Lawrence play. The kid is a monster and isn't just a "run stuffing" NT. He consistently collapses the pocket in the passing game and demands double teams. His presence alone should have a positive effect on the entire defense. TEM - Nice research on the sacks. I don't know if we have that player on our roster at this time, but I'm also not sure it's needed. As desertash mentions, and as I alluded to earlier, Bettcher's scheme is just different than what most of us seem to be used to. Blitzes will come from everywhere, and our DB's are going to be active. We may have 8 people with 5+ sacks, rather than 1 or 2 guys with double digit sacks. I could be wrong, but I think our defense is going to be real fun to watch this year. Believe me I want to be wrong with I what I think about The DC's system . The blitz did not work last year . I am not a fan of the whim and a prayer Defense. When it does not work and there is no plan B, (a tried and true QB planter) It fails miserably. He had plan B in AZ. He had no plan B last season. The result is: What we got was what we witnessed.
|
|
|
Post by giantlegacy on Aug 20, 2019 19:43:54 GMT -5
This. I feel the folks who complained about this pick didn't actually watch Lawrence play. The kid is a monster and isn't just a "run stuffing" NT. He consistently collapses the pocket in the passing game and demands double teams. His presence alone should have a positive effect on the entire defense. TEM - Nice research on the sacks. I don't know if we have that player on our roster at this time, but I'm also not sure it's needed. As desertash mentions, and as I alluded to earlier, Bettcher's scheme is just different than what most of us seem to be used to. Blitzes will come from everywhere, and our DB's are going to be active. We may have 8 people with 5+ sacks, rather than 1 or 2 guys with double digit sacks. I could be wrong, but I think our defense is going to be real fun to watch this year. Believe me I want to be wrong with I what I think about The DC's system . The blitz did not work last year . I am not a fan of the whim and a prayer Defense. When it does not work and there is no plan B, (a tried and true QB planter) It fails miserably. He had plan B in AZ. He had no plan B last season. The result is: What we got is what we witnessed. He also never had anyone as bad as Curtis Riley in Arizona either..
|
|
|
Post by TEM on Aug 20, 2019 19:49:32 GMT -5
Believe me I want to be wrong with I what I think about The DC's system . The blitz did not work last year . I am not a fan of the whim and a prayer Defense. When it does not work and there is no plan B, (a tried and true QB planter) It fails miserably. He had plan B in AZ. He had no plan B last season. The result is: What we got is what we witnessed. He also never had anyone as bad as Curtis Riley in Arizona either.. Come on What did CR have to do the with the inept ( all season ) ability for his exotic blitz packages to work? I can tell you why . It is because he did not have Chandler Jones on the end of the line.
|
|
|
Post by piddy283 on Aug 20, 2019 19:55:02 GMT -5
Bettcher's blitzing is "exotic", and he likes bringing pressure from the secondary and other odd angles. DLaw up front is a game changer to me, and if he's a 2+ down lineman and stays healthy that's going to disrupt many pockets. That's going to free up lanes for the other guys and I think we're in for feast/famine with this group early. The will make mistakes, missed assignments and such, but also their athleticism will come through on drive stoppers and TOs. I am actually anticipating quite a few more defensive highlights from this group this year. That is is whole stick . He could not do it last season . What his specialty was suppose to be, and he did not deliver, . The difference is in AZ he had a stud DE in Chandler Jones that The OC had to contend with . IMO: that is what freed up his Exotic Packages. Without that pass rusher his blitz shots were duds, The "shtick" was we were trimming the fat in 2018, and didn't have the talent or depth to run Bettcher's defense properly. There were glaring holes in every unit of the defense. It is what it is. When comparing the 2018 and 2019 depth charts, the improvement in overall talent and depth at every position is evident. I see no regression at any position........ 2018 vs. 2019: - LDE: Hill vs. Hill
- NT: Tomlinson vs. Tomlinson
- RDE: Mauro/Wynn vs. Lawrence
- SAM: Martin vs. Martin/Golden
- SILB: Ogletree/Davis vs. Ogletree/Goodson
- RILB: Goodson/Stupar vs. Davis/Connelly
- WLB: Vernon vs. Carter/XImines
- LCB: Webb vs. Baker
- SS: Collins vs. Peppers
- FS: Riley vs. Bethea
- RCB: Jenkins vs. Jenkins
Even the positions I believe pushed, the ones not in bold, can be considered improvements because these players have another year of experience under their belts. Again, I'm excited to watch our defense. I think they, and the Giants as an overall team, turn heads this season.
|
|
|
Post by GameTime on Aug 20, 2019 19:56:01 GMT -5
on paper......Betcher has better talent to work with over all. I also think the talent for the non starters and package players may be elevated as well.
Also you count on players taking their game to the next level. It doesnt always happen but you have to count on it.
|
|
|
Post by TEM on Aug 20, 2019 20:08:18 GMT -5
That is is whole stick . He could not do it last season . What his specialty was suppose to be, and he did not deliver, . The difference is in AZ he had a stud DE in Chandler Jones that The OC had to contend with . IMO: that is what freed up his Exotic Packages. Without that pass rusher his blitz shots were duds, The "shtick" was we were trimming the fat in 2018, and didn't have the talent or depth to run Bettcher's defense properly. There were glaring holes in every unit of the defense. It is what it is. When comparing the 2018 and 2019 depth charts, the improvement in overall talent and depth at every position is evident. I see no regression at any position........ 2018 vs. 2019: - LDE: Hill vs. Hill
- NT: Tomlinson vs. Tomlinson
- RDE: Mauro/Wynn vs. Lawrence
- SAM: Martin vs. Martin/Golden
- SILB: Ogletree/Davis vs. Ogletree/Goodson
- RILB: Goodson/Stupar vs. Davis/Connelly
- WLB: Vernon vs. Carter/XImines
- LCB: Webb vs. Baker
- SS: Collins vs. Peppers
- FS: Riley vs. Bethea
- RCB: Jenkins vs. Jenkins
Even the positions I believe pushed, the ones not in bold, can be considered improvements because these players have another year of experience under their belts. Again, I'm excited to watch our defense. I think they, and the Giants as an overall team, turn heads this season. I do not see it that way. We let Kennard walk and brought in Matrin and an additional 21 Defensive players . We traded JPP for nothing because OV fit as the WIL . After the season OV was no longer a system fit? That Defense was "built to win" last season. I do not buy into that BS, all of a sudden it wasn't and needed to be reassembled again .This the 2nd year the entire Defense is being retooled.I have never seen a DC get away with complete Rebuilds in subsequent years. Never ever : Not since I have been watching football, It is a carrot on a stick system . This guy has been given more latitude than the Space station.
|
|
|
Post by GameTime on Aug 20, 2019 20:13:23 GMT -5
The "shtick" was we were trimming the fat in 2018, and didn't have the talent or depth to run Bettcher's defense properly. There were glaring holes in every unit of the defense. It is what it is. When comparing the 2018 and 2019 depth charts, the improvement in overall talent and depth at every position is evident. I see no regression at any position........ 2018 vs. 2019: - LDE: Hill vs. Hill
- NT: Tomlinson vs. Tomlinson
- RDE: Mauro/Wynn vs. Lawrence
- SAM: Martin vs. Martin/Golden
- SILB: Ogletree/Davis vs. Ogletree/Goodson
- RILB: Goodson/Stupar vs. Davis/Connelly
- WLB: Vernon vs. Carter/XImines
- LCB: Webb vs. Baker
- SS: Collins vs. Peppers
- FS: Riley vs. Bethea
- RCB: Jenkins vs. Jenkins
Even the positions I believe pushed, the ones not in bold, can be considered improvements because these players have another year of experience under their belts. Again, I'm excited to watch our defense. I think they, and the Giants as an overall team, turn heads this season. I do not see it that way. We let Kannard walk and brought in Matrin and an additional 21 Defensive players . We traded JPP for nothing because OV fit as the WIL . After the season OV was no longer a system fit? That Defense was "built to win" last season. I do not buy into that BS, all of a sudden it wasn't and needed to be reassembled again .This the 2nd year the entire Defense is being retooled.I have never seen a DC get away with complete Rebuilds in subsequent years. Never ever : Not since I have been watching football, It is a carrot on a stick system . This guy has been given more latitude than the Space station. you make it sound like he has been terrible for 4 or 5 years.
|
|
|
Post by piddy283 on Aug 20, 2019 20:13:58 GMT -5
The "shtick" was we were trimming the fat in 2018, and didn't have the talent or depth to run Bettcher's defense properly. There were glaring holes in every unit of the defense. It is what it is. When comparing the 2018 and 2019 depth charts, the improvement in overall talent and depth at every position is evident. I see no regression at any position........ 2018 vs. 2019: - LDE: Hill vs. Hill
- NT: Tomlinson vs. Tomlinson
- RDE: Mauro/Wynn vs. Lawrence
- SAM: Martin vs. Martin/Golden
- SILB: Ogletree/Davis vs. Ogletree/Goodson
- RILB: Goodson/Stupar vs. Davis/Connelly
- WLB: Vernon vs. Carter/XImines
- LCB: Webb vs. Baker
- SS: Collins vs. Peppers
- FS: Riley vs. Bethea
- RCB: Jenkins vs. Jenkins
Even the positions I believe pushed, the ones not in bold, can be considered improvements because these players have another year of experience under their belts. Again, I'm excited to watch our defense. I think they, and the Giants as an overall team, turn heads this season. I do not see it that way. We let Kannard walk and brought in Matrin and an additional 21 Defensive players . We traded JPP for nothing because OV fit as the WIL . After the season OV was no longer a system fit? That Defense was "built to win" last season. I do not buy into that BS, all of a sudden it wasn't and needed to be reassembled again .This the 2nd year the entire Defense is being retooled.I have never seen a DC get away with complete Rebuilds in subsequent years. Never ever : Not since I have been watching football, It is a carrot on a stick system . This guy has been given more latitude than the Space station. So you don't see improvement vs. last year? If not, we simply disagree.
|
|
|
Post by TEM on Aug 20, 2019 20:17:26 GMT -5
I do not see it that way. We let Kannard walk and brought in Matrin and an additional 21 Defensive players . We traded JPP for nothing because OV fit as the WIL . After the season OV was no longer a system fit? That Defense was "built to win" last season. I do not buy into that BS, all of a sudden it wasn't and needed to be reassembled again .This the 2nd year the entire Defense is being retooled.I have never seen a DC get away with complete Rebuilds in subsequent years. Never ever : Not since I have been watching football, It is a carrot on a stick system . This guy has been given more latitude than the Space station. So you don't see improvement vs. last year? If not, we simply disagree. What do you have to judge improvement by? A 2nd rebuild in 2 seasons. What i see is more of the same so far. No pass rush, and or starting front 7 getting ran trough . What am I missing that you see?
|
|
|
Post by piddy283 on Aug 20, 2019 20:57:12 GMT -5
So you don't see improvement vs. last year? If not, we simply disagree. What do you have to judge improvement by? A 2nd rebuild in 2 seasons. What i see is more of the same so far. No pass rush, and or starting front 7 getting ran trough . What am I missing that you see? With respect, apparently a lot...... Our DL is improved with Lawrences' presence alone. We now have 3 legit players across the DL. All well above 300lbs. All offering versatility. Lawrence demands double teams on every play. Hill and Tomlinson could use one more often than not. Not everyone can be double teamed, so these guys will see more 1x1's than they should. This opens up everything behind them. Benefiting from the improved DL, and because of the revamp in youth, talent and competition, our LB's will also be better this year. To summarize..... ...Martin now has Golden/XMan to compete with...... ...We now have 4 players, competing for the two ILB positions. 3 previous starters, and 1 promising rookie ...Vernon is gone...so is his contract and lack of dependability. All signs point to Carter taking a step forward. Golden/XMan both have the athleticism to make an impact and both should be an asset on passing downs. .......may the best LB's win. Those who lose out will be solid depth and will provide a proper rotation depending on the situation. We haven't had proper competition or a proper rotation in years. Our DB's......well, this should be pretty straight forward so I won't go into too much detail. The only "loss" is Collins, but I don't see it as a loss. Peppers, at worst, is a push since Collins couldn't cover or stay healthy. I can understand those who disagree here, though. Either way, we also brought back Jenkins, improved every CB position, and added a veteran FS. To me, the improvement is clear. I'm not sure how one can disagree.
|
|
|
Post by bluesanta on Aug 21, 2019 5:28:09 GMT -5
Let me ask you (and when I mean you I mean everyone,I just happen to be quoting you) Does anyone actually expect the pass rush to be any worse than the previous years? I'd rather give all the kids (with the 2 plug in stop gaps Golden and Martin)a chance to at the very least improve on our pass rush and at a fraction of what we were paying others,setting a baseline for our unit and seeing if we need to spend a major resource next offseason I think they will be mediocre at best. At the end of the day talent trumps all, and we don’t have the horses to say for a fact right now they will be improved. Next year they better invest heavily in improving the pass rush. We won two titles in ‘07,’11 with guys who can get after the QB. You can never say anything as fact during a preseason. But, we know for a fact that last year our passrush was anemic. The guys we had in the premier passrush positions were not getting the job done. Specifically, I am talking about Vernon. He was even when healthy, which was rare, he never really garnered enough attention from offenses for them to consider altering protection packages in any way. In his 3 years in NY he averaged 7.3 sacks per year. While I do think he is a decent player, and this number doesnt tell the whole story, if the guy playing that position isnt making offenses aware of him, then the rest of our passrush is going to suffer too because offenses are able to use TEs and backs to pick up extra blitzers. Last year, Vernon played 60% of defensive snaps, garnering 7 sacks, 5 TFL, and 30 tackles. Carter, on the other hand, played 40% of snaps as a rookie with 4 sacks,7 TFL, and 30 tackles as well as 4 passes defended. It is important when comparing these 2 to note that many of LC's snaps were not just as a passrusher. Unlike Vernon, Carter was asked to drop back and play different positions as a rookie. As stats go, Carter was a much more productive player per snap than Vernon was as a passrusher and an all around player. This is why I cant buy into the excuse of injuries as Vernon's main problem. Even when healthy he was outproduced by Carter on a per snap basis. Above you said "we don’t have the horses to say for a fact right now they will be improved." To this, I disagree especially with regards to passrush. I am not saying we will suddenly be the 86 Giants again, but if we stay healthy then I think indications are that we will be improved. The only sack production we lost was Vernon's 7.3 sacks per year(7 last year.) I think between the maturation of Carter, Hill, Tomlinson and the addition of Xman, Golden, and Lawrence expecting to replace and improve upon the lost 7 sacks provided by Vernon is pretty reasonable. Especially when you consider that Carter was in fact a more effective passrusher last year when to consider how effective he was per snap compared to Vernon.
|
|
|
Post by giantlegacy on Aug 21, 2019 5:46:20 GMT -5
I think they will be mediocre at best. At the end of the day talent trumps all, and we don’t have the horses to say for a fact right now they will be improved. Next year they better invest heavily in improving the pass rush. We won two titles in ‘07,’11 with guys who can get after the QB. You can never say anything as fact during a preseason. But, we know for a fact that last year our passrush was anemic. The guys we had in the premier passrush positions were not getting the job done. Specifically, I am talking about Vernon. He was even when healthy, which was rare, he never really garnered enough attention from offenses for them to consider altering protection packages in any way. In his 3 years in NY he averaged 7.3 sacks per year. While I do think he is a decent player, and this number doesnt tell the whole story, if the guy playing that position isnt making offenses aware of him, then the rest of our passrush is going to suffer too because offenses are able to use TEs and backs to pick up extra blitzers. Last year, Vernon played 60% of defensive snaps, garnering 7 sacks, 5 TFL, and 30 tackles. Carter, on the other hand, played 40% of snaps as a rookie with 4 sacks,7 TFL, and 30 tackles as well as 4 passes defended. It is important when comparing these 2 to note that many of LC's snaps were not just as a passrusher. Unlike Vernon, Carter was asked to drop back and play different positions as a rookie. As stats go, Carter was a much more productive player per snap than Vernon was as a passrusher and an all around player. This is why I cant buy into the excuse of injuries as Vernon's main problem. Even when healthy he was outproduced by Carter on a per snap basis. Above you said "we don’t have the horses to say for a fact right now they will be improved." To this, I disagree especially with regards to passrush. I am not saying we will suddenly be the 86 Giants again, but if we stay healthy then I think indications are that we will be improved. The only sack production we lost was Vernon's 7.3 sacks per year(7 last year.) I think between the maturation of Carter, Hill, Tomlinson and the addition of Xman, Golden, and Lawrence expecting to replace and improve upon the lost 7 sacks provided by Vernon is pretty reasonable. Especially when you consider that Carter was in fact a more effective passrusher last year when to consider how effective he was per snap compared to Vernon. I keep saying that the D line is going to free up the edge guys and blitzers to attack the offense in general if they at the very least hold the mine of scrimmage to a stalemate,and even get some push back....eventually.. People again want instant gratification but reality is that because of the vast turnover it's going to take a while unfortunately,but when it does we are really going to like this defense a lot
|
|
|
Post by IrishMike on Aug 21, 2019 5:50:17 GMT -5
He also never had anyone as bad as Curtis Riley in Arizona either.. Come on What did CR have to do the with the inept ( all season ) ability for his exotic blitz packages to work? I can tell you why . It is because he did not have Chandler Jones on the end of the line. Are you saying Bettcher was only successful because of Chandler Jones?
|
|
|
Post by TEM on Aug 21, 2019 6:06:35 GMT -5
What do you have to judge improvement by? A 2nd rebuild in 2 seasons. What i see is more of the same so far. No pass rush, and or starting front 7 getting ran trough . What am I missing that you see? With respect, apparently a lot...... Our DL is improved with Lawrences' presence alone. We now have 3 legit players across the DL. All well above 300lbs. All offering versatility. Lawrence demands double teams on every play. Hill and Tomlinson could use one more often than not. Not everyone can be double teamed, so these guys will see more 1x1's than they should. This opens up everything behind them. Benefiting from the improved DL, and because of the revamp in youth, talent and competition, our LB's will also be better this year. To summarize..... ...Martin now has Golden/XMan to compete with...... ...We now have 4 players, competing for the two ILB positions. 3 previous starters, and 1 promising rookie ...Vernon is gone...so is his contract and lack of dependability. All signs point to Carter taking a step forward. Golden/XMan both have the athleticism to make an impact and both should be an asset on passing downs. .......may the best LB's win. Those who lose out will be solid depth and will provide a proper rotation depending on the situation. We haven't had proper competition or a proper rotation in years. Our DB's......well, this should be pretty straight forward so I won't go into too much detail. The only "loss" is Collins, but I don't see it as a loss. Peppers, at worst, is a push since Collins couldn't cover or stay healthy. I can understand those who disagree here, though. Either way, we also brought back Jenkins, improved every CB position, and added a veteran FS. To me, the improvement is clear. I'm not sure how one can disagree. You have me mistaken . We do not lack talent. We did not last season. I believe we lack a DC that knows how to use it. I would not believe this, if our Defense showed any sings of improvement last season. All season it was the same. McAdoo type, doing that same thing over and over with the same results.
|
|
|
Post by TEM on Aug 21, 2019 6:18:24 GMT -5
Come on What did CR have to do the with the inept ( all season ) ability for his exotic blitz packages to work? I can tell you why . It is because he did not have Chandler Jones on the end of the line. Are you saying Bettcher was only successful because of Chandler Jones? Has he been able to generate a pass rush without a DE of his caliber? No matter who he rotated in and out . The results were the same. I heard a lot of Hype about out outside rushers and blitz system last season and our run defense. Both sucked as I said. It was inconsequential who he had in the front 7 , It was not lack of talent , it is the system. His Blitz sachems demands a plan B. (a true double digit pass rusher) Because as it did last season when it fails. He has no other answer to fix what is broken.
|
|
|
Post by TEM on Aug 21, 2019 6:21:57 GMT -5
Why I believe it will have to come down to Bettcher utilizing the skills of all 11 on the field, and placing them in a position to succeed. If all 11 on the field are not optimally tuned. It is not going to go well. I agree ,the sad thing is that will be ignored.Like the last half of last season. I am not confident he can.
|
|
|
Post by IrishMike on Aug 21, 2019 6:31:25 GMT -5
It was not lack of talent , it is the system. So what talented pass rusher did he have last year?
Do you know that he had a successful defense without Chandler Jones in it as well?
|
|
|
Post by TEM on Aug 21, 2019 6:55:28 GMT -5
It was not lack of talent , it is the system. So what talented pass rusher did he have last year?
Do you know that he had a successful defense without Chandler Jones in it as well?
You miss the point. We had enough talent to run his blitz system . It sucked , it most likely sucked in AZ . He has Jones to bail his inept system out . He does not have that now. His main problem is; As with McAdoo he has no answer on how to adjust his system to compensate if it fails. Here is the time line and the facts. We a good Core of a 4-3 . Need some secondary help and some depth pass rushers. He came in and tore it down to almost nothing . Brought in 22 new Defensive players the fit his system. Built a unit that was a we can win with this defense. Now he has tore it down for the second straight year. Brought in a new bunch of fit his system players. His system sucks. I have been watching football for a long time . I have never ever ever seen a DC tare down a Defense 2 years in a row. Almost every player . Who has ever done that? This I am sure of; this is not the Giants second year in his system. For most of the players it is the first. last year we has JJ. LC Goodson , OV and Tomlinson. Not cut from Spags. Every other player was new, This year we have JJ Tomlinson Ogletree (Martin I think he gets cut) Carter, Hill. From las year. Goodson is going to get cut. And a few rotation guys MaCintosh.... I do not see how anyone is not questioning this? Why does this guy have to rebuild an entire D for the second year in a row when it was suppose to be a defense full of players that fit his system and could win. What is his excuse going to be at the end of this season?
|
|
|
Post by piddy283 on Aug 21, 2019 6:57:18 GMT -5
So you don't see improvement vs. last year? If not, we simply disagree. On paper I do.To me it is the question can the DC take the potential on paper and put it on the field,I hope so and want it but haven't seen anything that leads me to that he can. Exactly. The overall talent is better this year, and the talent is in line with how Bettcher apparently prefers to play. Let's see what Bettcher can do now that he has personnel more in line with his scheme.
|
|