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Post by jmike on Sept 4, 2019 10:03:09 GMT -5
You haven't proven anything. You have made irrelevant tangential comments. The interior OL needs to be better for any weapon to matter. If the Giants improve it will be because of improved play there more than any other position on offense. We could have Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Jerry Rice, Barry Sanders, Jay Novecek and Dan Marino out there and if the interior OL continues to play as we've seen for the last half dozen years, the team and offense will still be bad. How long were you waiting to crack Jay Novecek into a conversation? Haven’t heard that name in sometime, great tight end.. Just who I thought of off the top of my head.
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Post by jmike on Sept 4, 2019 10:04:29 GMT -5
Having trouble following here. What guy are we getting?????? A WR? Sorry if I missed it. Yeah..legit dynamic type guy Will they be on sale in the spring? Hard too keep up with the season promotions.
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Post by giantlegacy on Sept 4, 2019 10:05:04 GMT -5
Yeah..legit dynamic type guy Will they be on sale in the spring? Hard too keep up with the season promotions. Draft
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Post by jmike on Sept 4, 2019 10:12:51 GMT -5
Will they be on sale in the spring? Hard too keep up with the season promotions. Draft Ah, so you support the positional drafting over BPA with high picks? It is a popular thing, not criticizing, just disagree with the philosophy. Particularly with how poorly it worked out under Reese/Ross. Though it could be that the philosophy wasn't the problem as much as their talent evaluation. I can think of few instances where this worked out long term for a team. Or any really. I wouldn't get your hopes up, because it does not seem to me that DG ascribes to this method. However, with only 2 drafts here so far and only a few in Carolina, it is hard to say for sure.
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Post by bigblueones on Sept 4, 2019 10:17:33 GMT -5
Having trouble following here. What guy are we getting?????? A WR? Sorry if I missed it. Yeah..legit dynamic type guy Oh, I thought you were talking about a SPECIFIC WR LEGIT TYPE OF GUY in next years draft (insert eye roll here....). I agree, we need that, until then we just will have to try to make due with what we have. Legacy, who will be our leading receiver? Tate, Shepard or Engram? Just curious who you think, I think it will be Engram.
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Post by giantlegacy on Sept 4, 2019 10:18:25 GMT -5
Ah, so you support the positional drafting over BPA with high picks? It is a popular thing, not criticizing, just disagree with the philosophy. Particularly with how poorly it worked out under Reese/Ross. Though it could be that the philosophy wasn't the problem as much as their talent evaluation. I can think of few instances where this worked out long term for a team. Or any really. I wouldn't get your hopes up, because it does not seem to me that DG ascribes to this method. However, with only 2 drafts here so far and only a few in Carolina, it is hard to say for sure. I'm all about BPA to be honest... And where I think we will be picking(10-15 )WR probably would be in play as BPA next year in the 1st w rounds .. Gettleman also has a history of prioritizing high impact players in the 1st 2 rounds going back to Carolina (Benjamin,Funchess,McCaffrey and Barkley here )knowing he can get good o linemen mid rounds.
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Post by Parademon1 on Sept 4, 2019 10:21:09 GMT -5
Unless they can control the weather it'll be tough to do what Tennessee did. This had nothing to do with the weather,people need to stop with the weather excuse to justify having low standards for our recieving group Their scheme took away everything Shurmer wants to do and were able to run blitz out of their mid level zone. And Shurmer slept all off season & didn't devise a way to counter what Tenn did to them? And hate to break it, but bad weather can play a role in a team getting shutout or being held to less than what they avg in non bad weather games. The Saints put up way more pts in the dome than they do on the rd & when playing in late Nov/Dec rd games in cold weather cities, put up even less. Brees is a future HOFer & one of the best to ever throw the ball, but playing his entire career in the perfect weather of 72' degree sunny SD & then the perfect conditions in an indoor stadium, helped him put up the #s he has. Had he played for cold weather teams like NY,NE/Philly/Wash/Chi/GB & played 50% or more of his games in cold weather cities, I really don't think he would have the stats he does.
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Post by giantlegacy on Sept 4, 2019 10:21:32 GMT -5
Yeah..legit dynamic type guy Oh, I thought you were talking about a SPECIFIC WR LEGIT TYPE OF GUY in next years draft (insert eye roll here....). I agree, we need that, until then we just will have to try to make due with what we have. Legacy, who will be our leading receiver? Tate, Shepard or Engram? Just curious who you think, I think it will be Engram. Barkley If I had my way it would be Engram and then Ellison because that means we have established a devastating 12 formation that would force defenses to have to respect 2 legit recievers at TE,which to date no defensive scheme has been able to stop
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Post by IrishMike on Sept 4, 2019 10:29:45 GMT -5
I DO NOT agree with you in any way that this offense is fine or going to be good enough without a legit outside threat to take players out of the box and to be good enough to compensate for a young defense that will struggle You just put words in my mouth DO NOT ****ing put words in my mouth You started off saying that teams will study the Tennessee game and just copy what they did and shut us down. I said I don't think teams will be able to shut us down by copying Tennessee, clearly you agree since you think we will score 21-23. Thanks for agreeing with me.
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Post by IrishMike on Sept 4, 2019 10:30:46 GMT -5
And Shurmer slept all off season & didn't devise a way to counter what Tenn did to them? And hate to break it, but bad weather can play a role in a team getting shutout or being held to less than what they avg in non bad weather games. The Saints put up way more pts in the dome than they do on the rd & when playing in late Nov/Dec rd games in cold weather cities, put up even less. Brees is a future HOFer & one of the best to ever throw the ball, but playing his entire career in the perfect weather of 72' degree sunny SD & then the perfect conditions in an indoor stadium, helped him put up the #s he has. Had he played for cold weather teams like NY,NE/Philly/Wash/Chi/GB & played 50% or more of his games in cold weather cities, I really don't think he would have the stats he does. Are you sure? I never heard of weather effecting outdoor sports before.
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Post by giantlegacy on Sept 4, 2019 10:40:09 GMT -5
I DO NOT agree with you in any way that this offense is fine or going to be good enough without a legit outside threat to take players out of the box and to be good enough to compensate for a young defense that will struggle You just put words in my mouth DO NOT ****ing put words in my mouth You started off saying that teams will study the Tennessee game and just copy what they did and shut us down. I said I don't think teams will be able to shut us down by copying Tennessee, clearly you agree since you think we will score 21-23. Thanks for agreeing with me. STOP ****ING PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH I DO NOT IN ANY ****ING WAY AGREE WITH YOU you are starting to resemble an A hole now
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Post by Miked1958 on Sept 4, 2019 13:20:02 GMT -5
I will go the opposite of you at 6-10. To many question marks on defense. Lots of bodies at WR but no star or stars. And until the giants prove otherwise expect the opposing defenses to put an extra man in the box to help keep Barkley in check. Yes the was 8 games lost by 1 score last year. You say they can turn 5 of those into wins. I say most of those games turn to 2 score+ losses because i feel they are just a lot less experienced in a lot of areas compared to last year However i feel the youth movement will help them become a better team that will grow and gell and learn to win together Daniel Jones gets them to the 9/10 wins u speak of next year then from there 11 & 13 wins and beyond with a few more good drafts and tweaks in FA Yeah unfortunately unlike the past 15 or so years(2017 being the exception)if we get down 2 scores early its over.or if we give up 24 or more.. Not enough firepower to keep up with what will probably be a really young talent defense but going through growing pains this year Yes people forget that last year you had some experience on D before they got rid of Snacks, Vernon and let Collins go for nothing They may not have been all pro but experienced and not making rookie mistakes which we will see alot of this year. Snacks was a great run stopper and i wish they kept him. Could of used him Sunday now that Elliott got his new deal. O Line much improved as we all saw in preseason that should help eli with a little extra time for the inexperienced WRs to get open
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Sept 4, 2019 14:28:45 GMT -5
Ah, so you support the positional drafting over BPA with high picks? It is a popular thing, not criticizing, just disagree with the philosophy. Particularly with how poorly it worked out under Reese/Ross. Though it could be that the philosophy wasn't the problem as much as their talent evaluation. I can think of few instances where this worked out long term for a team. Or any really. I wouldn't get your hopes up, because it does not seem to me that DG ascribes to this method. However, with only 2 drafts here so far and only a few in Carolina, it is hard to say for sure. I think teams draft for a combination of skill and need all of the time. And for most teams, and in most drafts, there will generally be a couple of comparably graded out prospects that fill some kind of need when it's their turn to draft. It's quite often that we see the "best player" in the draft not drafted even in the top 3 spots due to positional value and team need.
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Sept 4, 2019 14:33:23 GMT -5
Oh, I thought you were talking about a SPECIFIC WR LEGIT TYPE OF GUY in next years draft (insert eye roll here....). I agree, we need that, until then we just will have to try to make due with what we have. Legacy, who will be our leading receiver? Tate, Shepard or Engram? Just curious who you think, I think it will be Engram. Barkley If I had my way it would be Engram and then Ellison because that means we have established a devastating 12 formation that would force defenses to have to respect 2 legit recievers at TE,which to date no defensive scheme has been able to stop That's an interesting take, but really only the Pats, for like 1 season, really ever implemented such an offense. Maybe PHI would do so this year? Teams have really moved heavily to 3 WR sets. Seems like TEs are becoming less of receiving threats as teams would rather use faster and shiftier RBs to attack the short middle than TEs.
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Post by giantlegacy on Sept 4, 2019 14:41:38 GMT -5
Barkley If I had my way it would be Engram and then Ellison because that means we have established a devastating 12 formation that would force defenses to have to respect 2 legit recievers at TE,which to date no defensive scheme has been able to stop That's an interesting take, but really only the Pats, for like 1 season, really ever implemented such an offense. Maybe PHI would do so this year? Teams have really moved heavily to 3 WR sets. Seems like TEs are becoming less of receiving threats as teams would rather use faster and shiftier RBs to attack the short middle than TEs. Philly's run in 2017 was powered by Ertz and Selik both being huge threats in the passing game that it made Foles job easy and opened up their running game (it's quite ironic that New England was done in by their own base offense,of course Belichick being obstinate in not playing Butler also helped in their demise) The 12 formation with 2 legit recieving threats as TEs has been the only time tested personal package that cannot be defended and can be used in any era of football..even today's modern style with air raid and RPO concepts . The Chiefs actually use the 12 quits a bit and watch the Vikings this year with Irv Smith jr and Rudolph. There is zero chance of being predictable heavy 12 and you can have a very balanced and explosive offense that can do anything and morph instantly style wise and back again..
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Sept 4, 2019 15:55:21 GMT -5
That's an interesting take, but really only the Pats, for like 1 season, really ever implemented such an offense. Maybe PHI would do so this year? Teams have really moved heavily to 3 WR sets. Seems like TEs are becoming less of receiving threats as teams would rather use faster and shiftier RBs to attack the short middle than TEs. Philly's run in 2017 was powered by Ertz and Selik both being huge threats in the passing game that it made Foles job easy and opened up their running game (it's quite ironic that New England was done in by their own base offense,of course Belichick being obstinate in not playing Butler also helped in their demise) The 12 formation with 2 legit recieving threats as TEs has been the only time tested personal package that cannot be defended and can be used in any era of football..even today's modern style with air raid and RPO concepts . The Chiefs actually use the 12 quits a bit and watch the Vikings this year with Irv Smith jr and Rudolph. There is zero chance of being predictable heavy 12 and you can have a very balanced and explosive offense that can do anything and morph instantly style wise and back again.. I know that was the thinking when they brought in Engram to pair with Ellison. That we could line in in a 12 formation and it was balanced between run and pass. I it's benefits over an 11 personnel is over stated though. While it's true that you technically should have better run options out of a 12 formation, since you have a better blocker with the second TE, you are also taking a lot of speed off the field as well. Also, I think for most defenses, it is easier for them to guard a teams' #2 TE than it is for them to cover a true slot receiver. It all depends on the personnel that you have. I don't think it's so much that either formation is easier or harder to defend, as much as teams having certain personnel packages that are just difficult for defenses to match-up against. PHI certainly has the personnel to go this route, and maybe we do as well (may have to during the time Tate is suspended). But I don't see a team like DAL taking Randal Cobb off the field to put in Jarwin Blake, or the Rams to take Cooper Kupp off the field to put in whoever their back-up TE is.
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Post by jjhall91 on Sept 4, 2019 16:22:10 GMT -5
I took the over when Vegas gave 6-10+-. I don't feel 7-9 is out of the question. I'm banking on Eli being more effective with an improved OL.
I'm inclined to agree with Marcus Spears' assessment of the Giants. He said he didn't look for the Giants to make the playoffs, however he felt they were going to "sneak up" on a few of the better teams and have at least a couple upsets. He also said the Giants' WRs were more capable than most think. He added a team with Saquon Barkley shouldn't be overlooked.
As is the case most of the time, the effectiveness of the QB will be the determining factor.
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Post by Roswell on Sept 4, 2019 19:32:51 GMT -5
9-7 Giants do not play a lot of teams with elite QBs. The breaks that haven’t gone their way in the last few years will finally even out. They have a great kicker. If they, by some miracle, win in Dallas, they could find themselves 4-0. Barkley is the greatest thing since Swiss cheese. And lastly, they no longer have number 74 starting at tackle... cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*C89VqmUcGW8RTt0R4m8cYQ.gif
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Post by jax5338 on Sept 4, 2019 20:26:38 GMT -5
Head: 7-9
Heart: 10-6
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Post by giants8493 on Sept 4, 2019 21:44:21 GMT -5
6-10 Change in the QB mid season, complete lack of top WR talent, porous defense but we play a "lighter" schedule so we will add some Ws. The first point is potentially speculation. There are only like 5 or 6 teams with top WR talent or else it wouldn't be top WR and defense should be better at least then that year in the secondary which is relevant. It sounds like you are trying to find excuses to be pessimistic. Why not just be optimistic?
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Post by allnygin on Sept 5, 2019 2:32:31 GMT -5
9-7 Giants do not play a lot of teams with elite QBs. The breaks that haven’t gone their way in the last few years will finally even out. They have a great kicker. If they, by some miracle, win in Dallas, they could find themselves 4-0. Barkley is the greatest thing since Swiss cheese. And lastly, they no longer have number 74 starting at tackle... cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*C89VqmUcGW8RTt0R4m8cYQ.gifLMAO that gif is perfect.. Wow you just can't make that shit up, how is he still even in the league at this point is beyond me.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Sept 5, 2019 5:39:16 GMT -5
6-10 Change in the QB mid season, complete lack of top WR talent, porous defense but we play a "lighter" schedule so we will add some Ws. The first point is potentially speculation. There are only like 5 or 6 teams with top WR talent or else it wouldn't be top WR and defense should be better at least then that year in the secondary which is relevant. It sounds like you are trying to find excuses to be pessimistic. Why not just be optimistic? The first is definitely not pure speculation, its an educated guess based on where we are right now. Its going to happen sooner rather than later. You will see. DJ definitely is not sitting all season. The sooner he gets in the better. 5 or 6 teams have a top WR? Im not talking about elite WR, Im talking a top WR for their team. Ours is Sterling Shepard right now, and probably Tate when he returns. Those are solid slot WRs. You call me out for being speculative, then drop the "we should be better than last year on defense" comment. Why? Our secondary is a bunch of young guys who barely played outside of JJ and Bethea. Very young secondary, lack of pass rush, no legit LBs.... Sorry, maybe better than last year, but that isnt saying much. And of course, I PRAY Im wrong. Why so pessimistic? Maybe the 28-58 record we have had the past 6 years? I turned more optimistic on DJ when I actualy saw him play because he played much better than I thought he would , regardless of preseason or not. So once I see improvement in our team, Ill start being more optimistic and put on my homer glasses. Until then, we are a bad football team.
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Post by giants8493 on Sept 5, 2019 6:20:53 GMT -5
The first point is potentially speculation. There are only like 5 or 6 teams with top WR talent or else it wouldn't be top WR and defense should be better at least then that year in the secondary which is relevant. It sounds like you are trying to find excuses to be pessimistic. Why not just be optimistic? The first is definitely not pure speculation, its an educated guess based on where we are right now. Its going to happen sooner rather than later. You will see. DJ definitely is not sitting all season. The sooner he gets in the better. 5 or 6 teams have a top WR? Im not talking about elite WR, Im talking a top WR for their team. Ours is Sterling Shepard right now, and probably Tate when he returns. Those are solid slot WRs. You call me out for being speculative, then drop the "we should be better than last year on defense" comment. Why? Our secondary is a bunch of young guys who barely played outside of JJ and Bethea. Very young secondary, lack of pass rush, no legit LBs.... Sorry, maybe better than last year, but that isnt saying much. And of course, I PRAY Im wrong. Why so pessimistic? Maybe the 28-58 record we have had the past 6 years? I turned more optimistic on DJ when I actualy saw him play because he played much better than I thought he would , regardless of preseason or not. So once I see improvement in our team, Ill start being more optimistic and put on my homer glasses. Until then, we are a bad football team. If the Giants are winning games Jones will continue to sit. Shepard and tate are at worst above average wrs. Two above average wrs plus a top receiving te = a better receiving core then most teams. There is absolutely no way that DeAndre baker and Bethea are worse then bw webb and Curtis Reilly. These are some of the worst football players I've ever seen. This might be the safest projection of all time!!!
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Post by TCHOF on Sept 5, 2019 6:52:43 GMT -5
6-10 Change in the QB mid season, complete lack of top WR talent, porous defense but we play a "lighter" schedule so we will add some Ws. I went 7-9, but based upon your football evaluation track record, I just bet my home and my kids’ college funds on the Giants to make the playoffs
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Post by IrishMike on Sept 5, 2019 9:53:19 GMT -5
With all due respect to this post , If I could predict the future it would be a effing lottery ticket!! With all due respect to your post lottery tickets don't predict the future...
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Post by TheAnalyst on Sept 5, 2019 10:19:36 GMT -5
6-10 Change in the QB mid season, complete lack of top WR talent, porous defense but we play a "lighter" schedule so we will add some Ws. I went 7-9, but based upon your football evaluation track record, I just bet my home and my kids’ college funds on the Giants to make the playoffs Do it. Your kids would probably be better off not going to college anyway if the apple didnt fall far from the tree...
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Post by TCHOF on Sept 5, 2019 10:34:32 GMT -5
I went 7-9, but based upon your football evaluation track record, I just bet my home and my kids’ college funds on the Giants to make the playoffs Do it. Your kids would probably be better off not going to college anyway if the apple didnt fall far from the tree... Now, now ... no need to take your lack of football knowledge out on my children.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Sept 5, 2019 10:38:00 GMT -5
Do it. Your kids would probably be better off not going to college anyway if the apple didnt fall far from the tree... Now, now ... no need to take your lack of football knowledge out on my children.
Man... you are relentless. Ill give you that. Can we shake hands now?
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Post by TCHOF on Sept 5, 2019 10:47:17 GMT -5
Now, now ... no need to take your lack of football knowledge out on my children.
Man... you are relentless. Ill give you that. Can we shake hands now? Of course ... you know I'm just busting you ...
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Post by McCherry on Sept 5, 2019 11:15:14 GMT -5
That's a great point. 10 points to whomever can figure out who Flowers thought he was supposed to block on that play.
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