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Post by allnygin on Dec 14, 2021 22:22:27 GMT -5
In short he talks about how he likes how some of the players on their current roster may have been "outcasts" or after thoughts by other teams that didn't really want them and that over the years they've had many that produced very well in that situation with that type of chip on their sholder.
He then narrows it out specifically and calls out each of their current lineman blocking for him by first and last name and then says alot of these guys were undrafted, drafted late or not guys who were thought of that would be contributers to their football team, but that they've been playing really well... and it makes me cringe as a giants fan.. how does that line look a million times better than ours?
Is it coaching, is it Rodgers can just help out what should be a below average oline bc he's so good. Its not secret to us we've had players here on the o-lines here go on and have better careers elsewhere once they left, flowers, pugh, look at zietler with the ravens. WHY CAN"T THIS TEAM figure out the o-line.. it really makes you wonder wtf is going on here.
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Post by Martin on Dec 14, 2021 22:39:10 GMT -5
Maybe the Giants don't evaluate talent very well. I don't know.....
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Post by OrangeGiant on Dec 15, 2021 7:17:27 GMT -5
It's an interesting question. Look at Flowers specifically. He was a disaster as a Tackle, everyone could see that. But did they even once try him at Guard? Many thought he was best suited to be a Guard, even before he was drafted. Look at him now.
Maybe it's a question of a player taking longer to develop or mature as a person and player. Maybe a lot of it has to do with how good the other players around you are. Look at Zeitler, he didn't look this good with the Giants last year, and our OL was terrible. Now he hasn't allowed a sack in how many snaps?
You can't keep relying on Top 10 draft picks to build your OL. You need to hit on late round picks and free agency too. This team has done neither.
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mendy
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Post by mendy on Dec 15, 2021 8:20:26 GMT -5
It's an interesting question. Look at Flowers specifically. He was a disaster as a Tackle, everyone could see that. But did they even once try him at Guard? Many thought he was best suited to be a Guard, even before he was drafted. Look at him now. Maybe it's a question of a player taking longer to develop or mature as a person and player. Maybe a lot of it has to do with how good the other players around you are. Look at Zeitler, he didn't look this good with the Giants last year, and our OL was terrible. Now he hasn't allowed a sack in how many snaps? You can't keep relying on Top 10 draft picks to build your OL. You need to hit on late round picks and free agency too. This team has done neither. Flowers very rarely has a one on one situation in the WFT Offense. It's not like the Giants didn't give him a shot as did Jacksonville ,he is on his second stint in Washington |
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Post by jb456 on Dec 15, 2021 8:53:54 GMT -5
In short he talks about how he likes how some of the players on their current roster may have been "outcasts" or after thoughts by other teams that didn't really want them and that over the years they've had many that produced very well in that situation with that type of chip on their sholder. He then narrows it out specifically and calls out each of their current lineman blocking for him by first and last name and then says alot of these guys were undrafted, drafted late or not guys who were thought of that would be contributers to their football team, but that they've been playing really well... and it makes me cringe as a giants fan.. how does that line look a million times better than ours? Is it coaching, is it Rodgers can just help out what should be a below average oline bc he's so good. Its not secret to us we've had players here on the o-lines here go on and have better careers elsewhere once they left, flowers, pugh, look at zietler with the ravens. WHY CAN"T THIS TEAM figure out the o-line.. it really makes you wonder wtf is going on here. Isn't Flowers a horrible example? Isn't he on his 4th team? Went to Washington 1 year, then to Miami and then back to Washington? Also, Zeitler was a pure cap casualty. Everyone knew he was the best Olineman but the coaches foolishly thought they could coach the trash they had up... |
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Post by OrangeGiant on Dec 15, 2021 8:57:32 GMT -5
It's an interesting question. Look at Flowers specifically. He was a disaster as a Tackle, everyone could see that. But did they even once try him at Guard? Many thought he was best suited to be a Guard, even before he was drafted. Look at him now. Maybe it's a question of a player taking longer to develop or mature as a person and player. Maybe a lot of it has to do with how good the other players around you are. Look at Zeitler, he didn't look this good with the Giants last year, and our OL was terrible. Now he hasn't allowed a sack in how many snaps? You can't keep relying on Top 10 draft picks to build your OL. You need to hit on late round picks and free agency too. This team has done neither. Flowers very rarely has a one on one situation in the WFT Offense. It's not like the Giants didn't give him a shot as did Jacksonville ,he is on his second stint in Washington I'm not saying they should have kept Flowers, just that they never even tried him at Guard...ever. It sounds like they want to try Peart at Guard, as he has looked awful at Tackle. He can't even beat out Solder. At least they seem like they want to try to exhaust all chances with him, something they really never did with Flowers. |
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mendy
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Post by mendy on Dec 15, 2021 9:08:08 GMT -5
In short he talks about how he likes how some of the players on their current roster may have been "outcasts" or after thoughts by other teams that didn't really want them and that over the years they've had many that produced very well in that situation with that type of chip on their sholder. He then narrows it out specifically and calls out each of their current lineman blocking for him by first and last name and then says alot of these guys were undrafted, drafted late or not guys who were thought of that would be contributers to their football team, but that they've been playing really well... and it makes me cringe as a giants fan.. how does that line look a million times better than ours? Is it coaching, is it Rodgers can just help out what should be a below average oline bc he's so good. Its not secret to us we've had players here on the o-lines here go on and have better careers elsewhere once they left, flowers, pugh, look at zietler with the ravens. WHY CAN"T THIS TEAM figure out the o-line.. it really makes you wonder wtf is going on here. Isn't Flowers a horrible example? Isn't he on his 4th team? Went to Washington 1 year, then to Miami and then back to Washington? Also, Zeitler was a pure cap casualty. Everyone knew he was the best Olineman but the coaches foolishly thought they could coach the trash they had up... I forgot about Miami . |
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Post by myronguyton on Dec 15, 2021 9:18:25 GMT -5
Maybe the Giants don't evaluate talent very well. I don't know..... I could be wrong, but I really believe chemistry is a bigger issue than talent for the Giants offense. |
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Post by idkaname on Dec 15, 2021 9:23:19 GMT -5
In short he talks about how he likes how some of the players on their current roster may have been "outcasts" or after thoughts by other teams that didn't really want them and that over the years they've had many that produced very well in that situation with that type of chip on their sholder. He then narrows it out specifically and calls out each of their current lineman blocking for him by first and last name and then says alot of these guys were undrafted, drafted late or not guys who were thought of that would be contributers to their football team, but that they've been playing really well... and it makes me cringe as a giants fan.. how does that line look a million times better than ours? Is it coaching, is it Rodgers can just help out what should be a below average oline bc he's so good. Its not secret to us we've had players here on the o-lines here go on and have better careers elsewhere once they left, flowers, pugh, look at zietler with the ravens. WHY CAN"T THIS TEAM figure out the o-line.. it really makes you wonder wtf is going on here. this post explains why success in the NFL is so hard for any position/unit/player…there’s many factors that help/hurt. Scheme, talent, health, position (right or left side can make or break certain players), city, motivation, weather, even dumb luck. Now it’s my opinion that a coach is responsible for developing and ACTING on putting a majority of these pieces of the puzzle together…even more so, ADJUSTING to what does and doesn’t work and gradually IMPROVING the state of the team. All the above capitalized words in the latter part of my response are exactly what Judge doesn’t do and why he will never be a successful coach until he (one more for the hell of it) LEARNS. His demise has been stubbornness. So far that’s the only trait he and coughlin share but as we know coughlin dropped his guard, became vulnerable as a person, and the rest is history….can judge do the same ? That’s up to him. |
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Post by idkaname on Dec 15, 2021 9:27:18 GMT -5
Maybe the Giants don't evaluate talent very well. I don't know..... I could be wrong, but I really believe chemistry is a bigger issue than talent for the Giants offense. absolutely. I forgot to include this in my post but this is probably the biggest factor we’ve been lacking especially on the oline. The reason the 07-08 lines were so good is because they played together for a long time (in nfl standards anyway) chemistry is the factor that kills the teams that go crazy in free agency. Communication is key and chemistry allows for it on almost a subconscious level |
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Post by myronguyton on Dec 15, 2021 9:42:35 GMT -5
I could be wrong, but I really believe chemistry is a bigger issue than talent for the Giants offense. absolutely. I forgot to include this in my post but this is probably the biggest factor we’ve been lacking especially on the oline. The reason the 07-08 lines were so good is because they played together for a long time (in nfl standards anyway) chemistry is the factor that kills the teams that go crazy in free agency. Communication is key and chemistry allows for it on almost a subconscious level Exactly....and speaking of a great qb like Rodgers, great qbs have a knack for elevating the offense around them and improving chemistry through leadership. It's like having an extra coach on the field. That has been one of my biggest knocks on DJ now in his 3rd season. He doesn't seem to elevate anyone around him, and doesn't seem adept at playing the game within the game. That and his inability to stay on the field are his two biggest weaknesses in my opinion. The physical abilities and work ethic are there. No 'it' factor though. |
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Post by snyder55 on Dec 15, 2021 10:12:43 GMT -5
In short he talks about how he likes how some of the players on their current roster may have been "outcasts" or after thoughts by other teams that didn't really want them and that over the years they've had many that produced very well in that situation with that type of chip on their sholder. He then narrows it out specifically and calls out each of their current lineman blocking for him by first and last name and then says alot of these guys were undrafted, drafted late or not guys who were thought of that would be contributers to their football team, but that they've been playing really well... and it makes me cringe as a giants fan.. how does that line look a million times better than ours? Is it coaching, is it Rodgers can just help out what should be a below average oline bc he's so good. Its not secret to us we've had players here on the o-lines here go on and have better careers elsewhere once they left, flowers, pugh, look at zietler with the ravens. WHY CAN"T THIS TEAM figure out the o-line.. it really makes you wonder wtf is going on here. this post explains why success in the NFL is so hard for any position/unit/player…there’s many factors that help/hurt. Scheme, talent, health, position (right or left side can make or break certain players), city, motivation, weather, even dumb luck. Now it’s my opinion that a coach is responsible for developing and ACTING on putting a majority of these pieces of the puzzle together…even more so, ADJUSTING to what does and doesn’t work and gradually IMPROVING the state of the team. All the above capitalized words in the latter part of my response are exactly what Judge doesn’t do and why he will never be a successful coach until he (one more for the hell of it) LEARNS. His demise has been stubbornness. So far that’s the only trait he and coughlin share but as we know coughlin dropped his guard, became vulnerable as a person, and the rest is history….can judge do the same ? That’s up to him. Judge seems to show a strong ego during interviews and if so then those types of people are very slow to admit a mistake and that leaves them open too repeating those mistakes... |
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Post by allnygin on Dec 15, 2021 10:32:55 GMT -5
It's an interesting question. Look at Flowers specifically. He was a disaster as a Tackle, everyone could see that. But did they even once try him at Guard? Many thought he was best suited to be a Guard, even before he was drafted. Look at him now. Maybe it's a question of a player taking longer to develop or mature as a person and player. Maybe a lot of it has to do with how good the other players around you are. Look at Zeitler, he didn't look this good with the Giants last year, and our OL was terrible. Now he hasn't allowed a sack in how many snaps? You can't keep relying on Top 10 draft picks to build your OL. You need to hit on late round picks and free agency too. This team has done neither. Flowers very rarely has a one on one situation in the WFT Offense. It's not like the Giants didn't give him a shot as did Jacksonville ,he is on his second stint in Washington When did the giants EVER really give him a shot to play Guard and develop as a guard which most people knew he was more cut out for? The giants stubbornley left him at LT which is fine thats what they wanted to develop him as, but he's done quite well with the skins now that they have him in a position that he's better suited for.. certainly better than our will hernandez or whoever the **** else we sent out there at gaurd every sunday. |
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Post by allnygin on Dec 15, 2021 10:34:00 GMT -5
In short he talks about how he likes how some of the players on their current roster may have been "outcasts" or after thoughts by other teams that didn't really want them and that over the years they've had many that produced very well in that situation with that type of chip on their sholder. He then narrows it out specifically and calls out each of their current lineman blocking for him by first and last name and then says alot of these guys were undrafted, drafted late or not guys who were thought of that would be contributers to their football team, but that they've been playing really well... and it makes me cringe as a giants fan.. how does that line look a million times better than ours? Is it coaching, is it Rodgers can just help out what should be a below average oline bc he's so good. Its not secret to us we've had players here on the o-lines here go on and have better careers elsewhere once they left, flowers, pugh, look at zietler with the ravens. WHY CAN"T THIS TEAM figure out the o-line.. it really makes you wonder wtf is going on here. Isn't Flowers a horrible example? Isn't he on his 4th team? Went to Washington 1 year, then to Miami and then back to Washington? Also, Zeitler was a pure cap casualty. Everyone knew he was the best Olineman but the coaches foolishly thought they could coach the trash they had up... No, actually not really at least imo. Flowers has done well at Guard and seems to have found his niche. He probably would be out of the league if teams kept him at tackle. He's been a better gaurd than any of the garbage we shuffle out there weeek after week. I'm not a huge PFF guy but since its so easily accessible ... Flowers is rated at a 71 Hernandez a 55. I didn't need PFF for that bc I have eyes, however I don't watch as much Redskins as I do Giants so, it was a quick source to back up the context. Maybe the giants should've given him a real shot at devloping as a gurad since it was clear he'd never develop into a LT |
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Post by hadenough on Dec 15, 2021 11:18:07 GMT -5
It's coaching, QB, and offensive scheme.
If you look at the best QBs, they all do a few things very well....get rid of the ball quickly and sense the rush.
Our QBs have been Eli and Jones. They are horrible avoiding the rush.
And our offensive scheme doesn't get the ball out as quickly as other offenses. Even when Gilbride was here, his era didn't end great because he couldn't adjust his scheme to get the ball out quicker.
So, yes...our olinemen don't seem to improve...that's coaching. Our scheme doesn't necessarily allow us to get the ball out quickly. And our QBs (regardless what you think about Eli) have been nothing but average for many, many years.
They all play into it.
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Post by Fletch842 on Dec 15, 2021 11:35:33 GMT -5
Flowers very rarely has a one on one situation in the WFT Offense. It's not like the Giants didn't give him a shot as did Jacksonville ,he is on his second stint in Washington When did the giants EVER really give him a shot to play Guard and develop as a guard which most people knew he was more cut out for? The giants stubbornley left him at LT which is fine thats what they wanted to develop him as, but he's done quite well with the skins now that they have him in a position that he's better suited for.. certainly better than our will hernandez or whoever the **** else we sent out there at gaurd every sunday. none of us know the dynamic in the locker room. Perhaps they wanted him to, but he refused. He did give up on the season before it ended if memory serves. Not saying that this is the case either, but none of us know what actually occurred that last season. |
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te88
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Post by te88 on Dec 15, 2021 11:44:18 GMT -5
The Giants are a stubborn and stupid organization that doesn't know how to evaluate or develop offensive linemen. Period.
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Post by Zimonami on Dec 15, 2021 11:55:24 GMT -5
Flowers very rarely has a one on one situation in the WFT Offense. It's not like the Giants didn't give him a shot as did Jacksonville ,he is on his second stint in Washington I'm not saying they should have kept Flowers, just that they never even tried him at Guard...ever. It sounds like they want to try Peart at Guard, as he has looked awful at Tackle. He can't even beat out Solder. At least they seem like they want to try to exhaust all chances with him, something they really never did with Flowers. There were a lot of peeps on here who suggested they try Flowers at guard... but it never happened. He had slow feet, like Solder, and couldn't keep up with an edge rusher that would just blow by him on the outside. You don't have that happen at guard. We should have tried there before giving up on him. It doesn't solve the problem at left tackle, but he'd be a whole lot better than Hernandez and Skura at guard, and that would be one less position player we have to find for next year. |
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Post by McCherry on Dec 15, 2021 12:00:55 GMT -5
I'm not saying they should have kept Flowers, just that they never even tried him at Guard...ever. It sounds like they want to try Peart at Guard, as he has looked awful at Tackle. He can't even beat out Solder. At least they seem like they want to try to exhaust all chances with him, something they really never did with Flowers. There were a lot of peeps on here who suggested they try Flowers at guard... but it never happened. He had slow feet, like Solder, and couldn't keep up with an edge rusher that would just blow by him on the outside. You don't have that happen at guard. We should have tried there before giving up on him. It doesn't solve the problem at left tackle, but he'd be a whole lot better than Hernandez and Skura at guard, and that would be one less position player we have to find for next year. Regardless of how Flowers has played, he's switched teams every offseason since he left here for a reason. As he did with the Giants, Flowers comes with a host of other problems. I do not miss this guy. |
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Post by OrangeGiant on Dec 15, 2021 12:29:10 GMT -5
I'm not saying they should have kept Flowers, just that they never even tried him at Guard...ever. It sounds like they want to try Peart at Guard, as he has looked awful at Tackle. He can't even beat out Solder. At least they seem like they want to try to exhaust all chances with him, something they really never did with Flowers. There were a lot of peeps on here who suggested they try Flowers at guard... but it never happened. He had slow feet, like Solder, and couldn't keep up with an edge rusher that would just blow by him on the outside. You don't have that happen at guard. We should have tried there before giving up on him. It doesn't solve the problem at left tackle, but he'd be a whole lot better than Hernandez and Skura at guard, and that would be one less position player we have to find for next year. Yes, he was constantly beaten to the outside almost every time. He usually wasn't bull rushed and over powered as much, he just had poor lateral movement on the edge. Again, I'm not saying we should have kept him, rumors were he had attitude issues as well. But when you draft a player that high, one would think you would try every option for him to succeed. Maybe it would have worked out, maybe not. |
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Post by jb456 on Dec 15, 2021 13:47:45 GMT -5
Isn't Flowers a horrible example? Isn't he on his 4th team? Went to Washington 1 year, then to Miami and then back to Washington? Also, Zeitler was a pure cap casualty. Everyone knew he was the best Olineman but the coaches foolishly thought they could coach the trash they had up... No, actually not really at least imo. Flowers has done well at Guard and seems to have found his niche. He probably would be out of the league if teams kept him at tackle. He's been a better gaurd than any of the garbage we shuffle out there weeek after week. I'm not a huge PFF guy but since its so easily accessible ... Flowers is rated at a 71 Hernandez a 55. I didn't need PFF for that bc I have eyes, however I don't watch as much Redskins as I do Giants so, it was a quick source to back up the context. Maybe the giants should've given him a real shot at devloping as a gurad since it was clear he'd never develop into a LT I see what your saying but my point was that Flowers wasn't ever likely to succeed here. Some players need a change of scenery (in his case 4) and a realization that if he didn't improve, he would be out of the league. He was a guard on two teams before he came back to Washington and they both of those teams let him go. The Giants were never going to continue paying the guy as a top 10 pick when he was a developmental player for 2 additional teams (that let him go) before he hit his stride.... |
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Post by allnygin on Dec 15, 2021 14:11:37 GMT -5
No, actually not really at least imo. Flowers has done well at Guard and seems to have found his niche. He probably would be out of the league if teams kept him at tackle. He's been a better gaurd than any of the garbage we shuffle out there weeek after week. I'm not a huge PFF guy but since its so easily accessible ... Flowers is rated at a 71 Hernandez a 55. I didn't need PFF for that bc I have eyes, however I don't watch as much Redskins as I do Giants so, it was a quick source to back up the context. Maybe the giants should've given him a real shot at devloping as a gurad since it was clear he'd never develop into a LT I see what your saying but my point was that Flowers wasn't ever likely to succeed here. Some players need a change of scenery (in his case 4) and a realization that if he didn't improve, he would be out of the league. He was a guard on two teams before he came back to Washington and they both of those teams let him go. The Giants were never going to continue paying the guy as a top 10 pick when he was a developmental player for 2 additional teams (that let him go) before he hit his stride.... I don't really believe in the "whole change of scenery" unless an organization has failed a player, a. giving up on them to fast b.player doesn't feel confident the team is doing whatever they can to get the player to succeed. yada yada.. it all falls back on the giants.. not flowers. and if recent history has anything to say about it.. history is on flowers side.. bc a he's better elsewhere and b. they can't seem to develop anyone outside of Thomas so far, and that's bc he was a given when they drafted him 4th overall. I also wanted flowers out of here, but everyone I mean basically everyone fans, media, said try him out at guard WAY earlier than when he left the team.. He was developmental bc yeah it takes work to play a guard position when you're use to LT and he was raw at that. The giants should've known after his second season LT wasn't EVER in his cards.. but the rest is history. There's a big issue with Giants and development and with scouting bc you can't be this bad overall and not be able to fix an oline for 10 years without significant contributions from both and maybe even bad QB play mixed in as well |
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Post by jb456 on Dec 15, 2021 14:35:41 GMT -5
I see what your saying but my point was that Flowers wasn't ever likely to succeed here. Some players need a change of scenery (in his case 4) and a realization that if he didn't improve, he would be out of the league. He was a guard on two teams before he came back to Washington and they both of those teams let him go. The Giants were never going to continue paying the guy as a top 10 pick when he was a developmental player for 2 additional teams (that let him go) before he hit his stride.... I don't really believe in the "whole change of scenery" unless an organization has failed a player, a. giving up on them to fast b.player doesn't feel confident the team is doing whatever they can to get the player to succeed. yada yada.. it all falls back on the giants.. not flowers. and if recent history has anything to say about it.. history is on flowers side.. bc a he's better elsewhere and b. they can't seem to develop anyone outside of Thomas so far, and that's bc he was a given when they drafted him 4th overall. I also wanted flowers out of here, but everyone I mean basically everyone fans, media, said try him out at guard WAY earlier than when he left the team.. He was developmental bc yeah it takes work to play a guard position when you're use to LT and he was raw at that. The giants should've known after his second season LT wasn't EVER in his cards.. but the rest is history. There's a big issue with Giants and development and with scouting bc you can't be this bad overall and not be able to fix an oline for 10 years without significant contributions from both and maybe even bad QB play mixed in as well I'm not of the opinion that the Giants have let many successful players go. Not to many teams would get the blessing from their front office to move a top 10 pick (that was slated to be their future LT) to play as a developmental guard. I actually think a majority of us wanted to see Flowers as a guard but as I mentioned before, how many teams would draft a player in the top 10 and then move him to guard and hope he develops in a few years? Pugh was a solid player but battled with injuries. If I recall correctly, Pugh struggled for a few years after he left the Giants as well. Zeitler was the consensus best player on the Oline (wasn't developed by the Giants) and was a pure cap casualty. To my point, Andrew's seems to be coming along fine, Gates was developing fine (until injury) and he was a later round pick. I wouldn't think you would see later round picks develop if a team has problems developing players at a position. To me, the biggest problems have are: Drafting poorly, poor free agent acquisitions and of course, injuries. Now, a good amount of these injuries are happening with players that were drafted with injury history and FA with injury history. This is a poorly run team with DG taking the most blame (he was here the longest) followed up by Judge, Graham and Jason Garrett (fired). DG had several interviews where he mentioned that he went out and tried to get the players that the coaches wanted. The Giants current coaches had a significant amount of input in all of the Draft picks and FA acquisitions for the last few years. This is why I don't understand why so many on this board are giving Judge a pass. Judge has a large responsibility for all of the players that were added for the last 2 years. How are those players working out? Yeah, I want me some more of that.... |
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Post by myronguyton29 on Dec 15, 2021 14:41:00 GMT -5
In short he talks about how he likes how some of the players on their current roster may have been "outcasts" or after thoughts by other teams that didn't really want them and that over the years they've had many that produced very well in that situation with that type of chip on their sholder. He then narrows it out specifically and calls out each of their current lineman blocking for him by first and last name and then says alot of these guys were undrafted, drafted late or not guys who were thought of that would be contributers to their football team, but that they've been playing really well... and it makes me cringe as a giants fan.. how does that line look a million times better than ours? Is it coaching, is it Rodgers can just help out what should be a below average oline bc he's so good. Its not secret to us we've had players here on the o-lines here go on and have better careers elsewhere once they left, flowers, pugh, look at zietler with the ravens. WHY CAN"T THIS TEAM figure out the o-line.. it really makes you wonder wtf is going on here. something is terribly terribly wrong and broken bro and that shit has better be much much better for 2022 that's all I can say; if not then the franchise just needs to be BURNT AND DESTROYED!!! |
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Post by dvision on Dec 15, 2021 14:42:10 GMT -5
No, actually not really at least imo. Flowers has done well at Guard and seems to have found his niche. He probably would be out of the league if teams kept him at tackle. He's been a better gaurd than any of the garbage we shuffle out there weeek after week. I'm not a huge PFF guy but since its so easily accessible ... Flowers is rated at a 71 Hernandez a 55. I didn't need PFF for that bc I have eyes, however I don't watch as much Redskins as I do Giants so, it was a quick source to back up the context. Maybe the giants should've given him a real shot at devloping as a gurad since it was clear he'd never develop into a LT I see what your saying but my point was that Flowers wasn't ever likely to succeed here. Some players need a change of scenery (in his case 4) and a realization that if he didn't improve, he would be out of the league. He was a guard on two teams before he came back to Washington and they both of those teams let him go. The Giants were never going to continue paying the guy as a top 10 pick when he was a developmental player for 2 additional teams (that let him go) before he hit his stride.... One of those 2 teams that let him go felt good enough about him to make a trade to bring him back... he was the highest graded lineman on Miami last season and while that's not saying much they traded him to clear up Cap space... |
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Post by myronguyton29 on Dec 15, 2021 14:44:15 GMT -5
In short he talks about how he likes how some of the players on their current roster may have been "outcasts" or after thoughts by other teams that didn't really want them and that over the years they've had many that produced very well in that situation with that type of chip on their sholder. He then narrows it out specifically and calls out each of their current lineman blocking for him by first and last name and then says alot of these guys were undrafted, drafted late or not guys who were thought of that would be contributers to their football team, but that they've been playing really well... and it makes me cringe as a giants fan.. how does that line look a million times better than ours? Is it coaching, is it Rodgers can just help out what should be a below average oline bc he's so good. Its not secret to us we've had players here on the o-lines here go on and have better careers elsewhere once they left, flowers, pugh, look at zietler with the ravens. WHY CAN"T THIS TEAM figure out the o-line.. it really makes you wonder wtf is going on here. this post explains why success in the NFL is so hard for any position/unit/player…there’s many factors that help/hurt. Scheme, talent, health, position (right or left side can make or break certain players), city, motivation, weather, even dumb luck. Now it’s my opinion that a coach is responsible for developing and ACTING on putting a majority of these pieces of the puzzle together…even more so, ADJUSTING to what does and doesn’t work and gradually IMPROVING the state of the team. All the above capitalized words in the latter part of my response are exactly what Judge doesn’t do and why he will never be a successful coach until he (one more for the hell of it) LEARNS. His demise has been stubbornness. So far that’s the only trait he and coughlin share but as we know coughlin dropped his guard, became vulnerable as a person, and the rest is history….can judge do the same ? That’s up to him. And it's crazy those are the things that Judge said he would be and do different when he got here, the missing things that we hadn't had and he sure has not delivered at all!!! |
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Post by myronguyton29 on Dec 15, 2021 14:45:34 GMT -5
absolutely. I forgot to include this in my post but this is probably the biggest factor we’ve been lacking especially on the oline. The reason the 07-08 lines were so good is because they played together for a long time (in nfl standards anyway) chemistry is the factor that kills the teams that go crazy in free agency. Communication is key and chemistry allows for it on almost a subconscious level Exactly....and speaking of a great qb like Rodgers, great qbs have a knack for elevating the offense around them and improving chemistry through leadership. It's like having an extra coach on the field. That has been one of my biggest knocks on DJ now in his 3rd season. He doesn't seem to elevate anyone around him, and doesn't seem adept at playing the game within the game. That and his inability to stay on the field are his two biggest weaknesses in my opinion. The physical abilities and work ethic are there. No 'it' factor though. exactly fellow Myron |
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Post by jb456 on Dec 15, 2021 15:58:56 GMT -5
I see what your saying but my point was that Flowers wasn't ever likely to succeed here. Some players need a change of scenery (in his case 4) and a realization that if he didn't improve, he would be out of the league. He was a guard on two teams before he came back to Washington and they both of those teams let him go. The Giants were never going to continue paying the guy as a top 10 pick when he was a developmental player for 2 additional teams (that let him go) before he hit his stride.... One of those 2 teams that let him go felt good enough about him to make a trade to bring him back... he was the highest graded lineman on Miami last season and while that's not saying much they traded him to clear up Cap space... I trying to but I don't see it. You are saying that Flowers was a cap casualty in Miami after he was cut by the Giants and then cut by Washington the next year? How much was the guy making? |
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Post by allnygin on Dec 15, 2021 16:08:12 GMT -5
I don't really believe in the "whole change of scenery" unless an organization has failed a player, a. giving up on them to fast b.player doesn't feel confident the team is doing whatever they can to get the player to succeed. yada yada.. it all falls back on the giants.. not flowers. and if recent history has anything to say about it.. history is on flowers side.. bc a he's better elsewhere and b. they can't seem to develop anyone outside of Thomas so far, and that's bc he was a given when they drafted him 4th overall. I also wanted flowers out of here, but everyone I mean basically everyone fans, media, said try him out at guard WAY earlier than when he left the team.. He was developmental bc yeah it takes work to play a guard position when you're use to LT and he was raw at that. The giants should've known after his second season LT wasn't EVER in his cards.. but the rest is history. There's a big issue with Giants and development and with scouting bc you can't be this bad overall and not be able to fix an oline for 10 years without significant contributions from both and maybe even bad QB play mixed in as well I'm not of the opinion that the Giants have let many successful players go. Not to many teams would get the blessing from their front office to move a top 10 pick (that was slated to be their future LT) to play as a developmental guard. I actually think a majority of us wanted to see Flowers as a guard but as I mentioned before, how many teams would draft a player in the top 10 and then move him to guard and hope he develops in a few years? Pugh was a solid player but battled with injuries. If I recall correctly, Pugh struggled for a few years after he left the Giants as well. Zeitler was the consensus best player on the Oline (wasn't developed by the Giants) and was a pure cap casualty. To my point, Andrew's seems to be coming along fine, Gates was developing fine (until injury) and he was a later round pick. I wouldn't think you would see later round picks develop if a team has problems developing players at a position. To me, the biggest problems have are: Drafting poorly, poor free agent acquisitions and of course, injuries. Now, a good amount of these injuries are happening with players that were drafted with injury history and FA with injury history. This is a poorly run team with DG taking the most blame (he was here the longest) followed up by Judge, Graham and Jason Garrett (fired). DG had several interviews where he mentioned that he went out and tried to get the players that the coaches wanted. The Giants current coaches had a significant amount of input in all of the Draft picks and FA acquisitions for the last few years. This is why I don't understand why so many on this board are giving Judge a pass. Judge has a large responsibility for all of the players that were added for the last 2 years. How are those players working out? Yeah, I want me some more of that.... I agree. The original premise of this post was that its cringe worthy that the packers have a makeshift oline of players that should not be anywhere near as good as they are.. no continuity, no pedigree patchwork players and they are succeeding with Rodgers, he brings this up. Its crazy that after 10 years the giants can't even come close to the packers worst... This organization is a cluster **** from top to bottom but also peart - has been failed to this point Leumiex - was garabge one of the worst rated guards no reason to think he'd be any better this season Hernandez - has declined since his rookie year |
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Post by Zimonami on Dec 15, 2021 16:56:11 GMT -5
this post explains why success in the NFL is so hard for any position/unit/player…there’s many factors that help/hurt. Scheme, talent, health, position (right or left side can make or break certain players), city, motivation, weather, even dumb luck. Now it’s my opinion that a coach is responsible for developing and ACTING on putting a majority of these pieces of the puzzle together…even more so, ADJUSTING to what does and doesn’t work and gradually IMPROVING the state of the team. All the above capitalized words in the latter part of my response are exactly what Judge doesn’t do and why he will never be a successful coach until he (one more for the hell of it) LEARNS. His demise has been stubbornness. So far that’s the only trait he and coughlin share but as we know coughlin dropped his guard, became vulnerable as a person, and the rest is history….can judge do the same ? That’s up to him. And it's crazy those are the things that Judge said he would be and do different when he got here, the missing things that we hadn't had and he sure has not delivered at all!!! After 2 years coaching special teams and linebackers in college he was a special teams coach at New England for 8 years. At the ripe old age of 39 he came to the Giants organization as a raw, rookie HC. And, after all that 'experience', especially in evaluating college talent for an entire Pro team's myriad positions you guys think he should be held accountable for the draft in 2020 along with the scouts and DG? As with everything else he has to handle as a rookie HC, JJ has a lot of learning and experience to gain before I'm going to roast him too much about anything that's totally new to him. It's the price you pay when you hire a 39 year old first time HC. |
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