|
Post by vinnie on Apr 17, 2024 10:27:43 GMT -5
I can’t wait to hear the discussion next year about how many future first round picks we’ll have to give up just to step up to the plate for a QB, let alone take a swing at one, when this year we’re already at the plate. Everyone pretty much acknowledges that at least half of all QB’s taken in the first round will be a bust so they don’t want the Giants to risk takin one with the 6th pick with a stud WR there and they don’t want the Giants to give up future picks to move up and get one. In all probability we’ll be taking the exact same risk on drafting a QB next year but will have to give up much, much, much more. So when exactly do you guys plan on addressing the QB? Do you think we should just throw away valuable 2nd and 3d round picks on a QB that has less than a 5-10% chance of becoming a starter? Are you relying on finding the next Purdy, Romo or Brady? I don’t understand the logic of not wanting to get a QB now because it’s a big risk but wanting to wait another year when that same risk will cost you that many more picks, and I guarantee you, this roster will still need a lot of work next year and we’ll want those picks. The problem with a lot of fans is that they would rather wallow in mediocrity than take a chance at being good (or at least functional). By not taking a chance nothing will change. I think that attitude permeates the FO of this team. Until I see otherwise that will be my pov. This perfectly describes Jerry Jones, just stay relevant, but after 30 years of mediocrity and three 12 win seasons in a row, even most of their fans have had it and want to blow it all up, especially with Dak.
|
|
|
Post by vinnie on Apr 17, 2024 10:30:37 GMT -5
Just in case anyone missed my prior ~10-15 posts about Maye, beginning while he was in college, put me on record as him being a bust or average AT BEST (I’ll go with 15% chance he’ll be average; 100% chance he’ll be average or worse). If we draft him, and I do think Schoen likes him the most, then hopefully someone will pull this post up in 2-3 years to call me out for being dead wrong. I would gladly welcome it. I would beg for it, I will even quote myself if no one else does. Sorry for my long response on that other post but I didn’t see this when I drafted that book. This was a huge part of the point Im making. If we passed over Maye at 6 it doesn’t sound like you’d be pissed. Neither would I. I’d feel the same way if they draft a QB. JUST BE RIGHT. I don’t think we can afford a boom/bust pick at 6. Pick whomever your scouts are saying is as sure thing a pick as you have seen. We need at starter who turns ou and makes a big difference in games. It really doesn’t matter what position they play. If you don’t have someone like that available at 6, ESPECIALLY if there’s a QB on the board, then absolutely rip off some other GM who is saviour shopping. Picks are more chances at getting your scouting right. JS won’t be fired until 25 anyway. Use the whole clock. Lol, no problem, it was a good post and I replied with my own lengthy post before I saw this I always respond in order of my notifications before reading all of them.
|
|
|
Post by McCherry on Apr 17, 2024 10:37:00 GMT -5
my point isn’t that you skip QB because the risk is too great. If you’re scouting team is really excited about a QB, then go get him. I don’t get the “we better take a QB” opinion. That’s the equivalent of “you better find a wife this month”. Can you? Of course. Does it make sense to say “it better be now”? That’s entirely dependent on the candidates. So the fair point of “when will we be in a better position to take a QB” is still dependent on what we think of the candidates. You’re right, if we win more games the cost of acquiring the draft position to pick a rockstar QB gets more expensive. No argument from me on that. But my general opinion is too many teams are saviour hunting and i think it’s a waste of time and resources. The cost benefit analysis of it is horrible. Discounting rookies, looking at QBs with a minimum of two seasons under their belt, how many teams in the NFl have a QB that can beat the Chiefs? Maybe 4? I think Allen can, but hasn’t yet and I don’t know if he ever will. So what’s the point of sticking with Allen if realistically he can’t win Buffalo a championship? To boil down a post that’s too long to begin with. I think the goal should be to find a good enough QB. Finding a GOAT is pure ass luck in my opinion coupled with having the perfect mix of coaching and roster (and in some cases corresponding divisional incompetence) to have the right environment to grow a GOAT. The only way these good but not great teams can acquire a Mahomes is to become horrible and then get lucky. The other alternative is to try and get lucky staying “good enough” long enough that luck helps you win from that position. Either way, luck is a huge component of championships. So if we pick a QB at 6, or move up and grab one, I’ll be waiting to see how it turns out. If we don’t pick a QB, even if ones available at at 6 I won’t be disappointed. I don’t see building a championship team conventionally. And in fact when you’re rooting for a team in the league with a potential GOAT QB playing somewhere else, you have to envision a different way of developing and winning a championship. You’re not going to out-Mahomes Mahomes. Nice response and very legitimate points. I guess part of my point of getting a QB this year, or next, is that I don’t see Jones as the answer, even if we build up the team around him. After this year, unless he suddenly turns into an All Pro, I don’t think his production (or lack thereof) will be worth what they pay him and I also think it can be replicated by most, if not all, of these rookies, including Maye who I don’t like. I think we would be better off with a QB on a rookie deal and spending the money we would have paid Jones on other positions of need, and there’s plenty. The risk of the rookie being worse than Jones is minimal IMO and is worth a shot. Add in the risk of Jones getting hurt again and cashing in on that injury clause and it would be catastrophic. We can’t keep kicking the Jones can down the road as his cap hit gets higher and higher but his play is the same or slightly better. He needs to be MUCH better than anything we’ve seen. Some people put him on a pedestal for the 2022 season, by most starting QB standards it was still pretty pathetic but for Jones it was considered great. This experiment needs to end. 6 f’in years and fundamentally he really hasn’t improved on anything, Dabs just covered up his weaknesses until other teams figured it out hence ending the 2022 season by winning 3 of the last 9 games. I agree Vin. I put the odds of us coming out of this draft without a QB at 0%. It would be the end of Schoen and Daboll's future. And pretty much the Giants. It's just a question of who and what we give up.
|
|
|
Post by vinnie on Apr 17, 2024 10:51:51 GMT -5
Nice response and very legitimate points. I guess part of my point of getting a QB this year, or next, is that I don’t see Jones as the answer, even if we build up the team around him. After this year, unless he suddenly turns into an All Pro, I don’t think his production (or lack thereof) will be worth what they pay him and I also think it can be replicated by most, if not all, of these rookies, including Maye who I don’t like. I think we would be better off with a QB on a rookie deal and spending the money we would have paid Jones on other positions of need, and there’s plenty. The risk of the rookie being worse than Jones is minimal IMO and is worth a shot. Add in the risk of Jones getting hurt again and cashing in on that injury clause and it would be catastrophic. We can’t keep kicking the Jones can down the road as his cap hit gets higher and higher but his play is the same or slightly better. He needs to be MUCH better than anything we’ve seen. Some people put him on a pedestal for the 2022 season, by most starting QB standards it was still pretty pathetic but for Jones it was considered great. This experiment needs to end. 6 f’in years and fundamentally he really hasn’t improved on anything, Dabs just covered up his weaknesses until other teams figured it out hence ending the 2022 season by winning 3 of the last 9 games. I agree Vin. I put the odds of us coming out of this draft without a QB at 0%. It would be the end of Schoen and Daboll's future. And pretty much the Giants. It's just a question of who and what we give up. I dunno Mike, I’ve said this once before, I’m not a conspiracy theorist and I’m not saying Mara is directly involved in all the decision making (or any of it) but the only way I don’t see them getting a QB is if Mara and Schoen had a “handshake” deal that Schoen will roll with DJ this year and if he doesn’t work out then him and Dabs will still keep their jobs and can draft a QB next year. I know it sounds a little far fetched and I know Mara said he’s staying out of it but we also know Mara loves DJ and wants to seem him succeed and be the Giants answer at QB (can’t believe he’s already going on 6 years though). Like you, I don’t think Schoen would hitch his career to Jones this year without Mara’s blessing that he won’t get fired if it doesn’t work out. Should…scratch that, WILL be interesting.
|
|
|
Post by McCherry on Apr 17, 2024 11:14:45 GMT -5
I agree Vin. I put the odds of us coming out of this draft without a QB at 0%. It would be the end of Schoen and Daboll's future. And pretty much the Giants. It's just a question of who and what we give up. I dunno Mike, I’ve said this once before, I’m not a conspiracy theorist and I’m not saying Mara is directly involved in all the decision making (or any of it) but the only way I don’t see them getting a QB is if Mara and Schoen had a “handshake” deal that Schoen will roll with DJ this year and if he doesn’t work out then him and Dabs will still keep their jobs and can draft a QB next year. I know it sounds a little far fetched and I know Mara said he’s staying out of it but we also know Mara loves DJ and wants to seem him succeed and be the Giants answer at QB (can’t believe he’s already going on 6 years though). Like you, I don’t think Schoen would hitch his career to Jones this year without Mara’s blessing that he won’t get fired if it doesn’t work out. Should…scratch that, WILL be interesting. Mara is already on the record endorsing the idea of drafting a QB and has publicly given Schoen full authority to do it. There is no chance he privately forbid Schoen to draft a QB. It would completely undermine Schoen's authority and no GM would stand for that. Mara isn't stupid. I still like DJ too and he'll get another chance. But there is a durability concern that can't be ignored. And Lock is not a serious option as a starter.
|
|
|
Post by glorydays on Apr 17, 2024 11:15:39 GMT -5
Hello everyone. I'm new to the board and am excited to share opinions on our Giants. I wanna thank the mods for accepting me to join the group and for creating such a good looking and organized site. I voted for "ROLL THE DICE and trade back". By the wording I can tell that the OP, or anyone who thinks trading back for additional high picks is risky, does not like this option. Let me just say: based on draft picks "success/failure stats" isn't any pick ROLLING THE DICE? Do we not have a better chance of hitting on starters that would fill needs or upgrade positions, by having more chances than just one, even if that one pick is rated a little higher? Thank you all.
|
|
|
Post by TEM on Apr 17, 2024 11:18:25 GMT -5
Hello everyone. I'm new to the board and am excited to share opinions on our Giants. I wanna thank the mods for accepting me to join the group and for creating such a good looking and organized site. I voted for "ROLL THE DICE and trade back". By the wording I can tell that the OP, or anyone who thinks trading back for additional high picks is risky, does not like this option. Let me just say: based on draft picks "success/failure stats" isn't any pick ROLLING THE DICE? Do we not have a better chance of hitting on starters that would fill needs or upgrade positions, by having more chances than just one, even if that one pick is rated a little higher? Thank you all. Welcome to the board. Or the nuthouse. Whatever you choose to call it.
|
|
|
Post by piddy283 on Apr 17, 2024 12:05:12 GMT -5
I can’t wait to hear the discussion next year about how many future first round picks we’ll have to give up just to step up to the plate for a QB, let alone take a swing at one, when this year we’re already at the plate. Everyone pretty much acknowledges that at least half of all QB’s taken in the first round will be a bust so they don’t want the Giants to risk takin one with the 6th pick with a stud WR there and they don’t want the Giants to give up future picks to move up and get one. In all probability we’ll be taking the exact same risk on drafting a QB next year but will have to give up much, much, much more. So when exactly do you guys plan on addressing the QB? Do you think we should just throw away valuable 2nd and 3d round picks on a QB that has less than a 5-10% chance of becoming a starter? Are you relying on finding the next Purdy, Romo or Brady? I don’t understand the logic of not wanting to get a QB now because it’s a big risk but wanting to wait another year when that same risk will cost you that many more picks, and I guarantee you, this roster will still need a lot of work next year and we’ll want those picks. +1. I'll take it a step further and say that drafting a QB isn't nearly as risky as it was a few years ago. These 4-5 year setbacks teams go through stem from the fact that QBs are given longer leashes than other positions. It doesn't make sense to me.
If a QB hasn't proven himself by the end of his 2nd season, move on. There's no reason why a franchise QB should need longer than that in today's NFL. If they do, then they're likely not an actual franchise QB and they're likely not going to be worth the huge contract they'll end up demanding if they do have a decent season or two.
This game has become completely catered to the offense and there are more capable QBs available each off-season than ever before. There is no reason why anyone should worry about the risk involved with drafting a QB these days because it's minimal.
|
|
|
Post by Nite on Apr 17, 2024 12:31:45 GMT -5
The problem with a lot of fans is that they would rather wallow in mediocrity than take a chance at being good (or at least functional). By not taking a chance nothing will change. I think that attitude permeates the FO of this team. Until I see otherwise that will be my pov. This perfectly describes Jerry Jones, just stay relevant, but after 30 years of mediocrity and three 12 win seasons in a row, even most of their fans have had it and want to blow it all up, especially with Dak. Well they kick our ass on a continuous basis and make the playoffs on a continuous basis. They have accomplished waaay more than what we do. Their team is better and have a shot at a championship almost on a yearly basis. I would take that 'mediocrity' over our version
|
|
|
Post by cdngfan on Apr 17, 2024 12:40:18 GMT -5
my point isn’t that you skip QB because the risk is too great. If your scouting team is really excited about a QB, then go get him. I don’t get the “we better take a QB” opinion. That’s the equivalent of “you better find a wife this month”. Can you? Of course. Does it make sense to say “it better be now”? That’s entirely dependent on the candidates. So the fair point of “when will we be in a better position to take a QB” is still dependent on what we think of the candidates. You’re right, if we win more games the cost of acquiring the draft position to pick a rockstar QB gets more expensive. No argument from me on that. But my general opinion is too many teams are saviour hunting and i think it’s a waste of time and resources. The cost benefit analysis of it is horrible. Discounting rookies, looking at QBs with a minimum of two seasons under their belt, how many teams in the NFl have a QB that can beat the Chiefs? Maybe 4? I think Allen can, but hasn’t yet and I don’t know if he ever will. So what’s the point of sticking with Allen if realistically he can’t win Buffalo a championship? To boil down a post that’s too long to begin with. I think the goal should be to find a good enough QB. Finding a GOAT is pure ass luck in my opinion coupled with having the perfect mix of coaching and roster (and in some cases corresponding divisional incompetence) to have the right environment to grow a GOAT. The only way these good but not great teams can acquire a Mahomes is to become horrible and then get lucky. The other alternative is to try and get lucky staying “good enough” long enough that luck helps you win from that position. Either way, luck is a huge component of championships. So if we pick a QB at 6, or move up and grab one, I’ll be waiting to see how it turns out. If we don’t pick a QB, even if ones available at at 6 I won’t be disappointed. I don’t see building a championship team conventionally. And in fact when you’re rooting for a team in the league with a potential GOAT QB playing somewhere else, you have to envision a different way of developing and winning a championship. You’re not going to out-Mahomes Mahomes. Nice response and very legitimate points. I guess part of my point of getting a QB this year, or next, is that I don’t see Jones as the answer, even if we build up the team around him. After this year, unless he suddenly turns into an All Pro, I don’t think his production (or lack thereof) will be worth what they pay him and I also think it can be replicated by most, if not all, of these rookies, including Maye who I don’t like. I think we would be better off with a QB on a rookie deal and spending the money we would have paid Jones on other positions of need, and there’s plenty. The risk of the rookie being worse than Jones is minimal IMO and is worth a shot. Add in the risk of Jones getting hurt again and cashing in on that injury clause and it would be catastrophic. We can’t keep kicking the Jones can down the road as his cap hit gets higher and higher but his play is the same or slightly better. He needs to be MUCH better than anything we’ve seen. Some people put him on a pedestal for the 2022 season, by most starting QB standards it was still pretty pathetic but for Jones it was considered great. This experiment needs to end. 6 f’in years and fundamentally he really hasn’t improved on anything, Dabs just covered up his weaknesses until other teams figured it out hence ending the 2022 season by winning 3 of the last 9 games. for Dabs and DJ it’s a 2 yr experiment and it’s ending. Jones absolutely has one last shot. But if his numbers aren’t much better than 2022 (meaning more yards, more TDs, minimal turnovers) then he won’t be playing by mid season. Jones’ value to JS is you don’t have to spend draft capital (your accurate original point) on a QB. Realistically you want Goff with legs. 3,700+ yards, 25+ TDs, 1/3rd or fewer T/O (including fumbles), without that he doesn’t have trade value and is a cap liability. A lot of fans are furious at JS for the contract but he’s got a cut-able contract for a reason. If he didn’t he’d be a $10 million cap hit and here for 5 years like Hurts. Last year proved they can be a competitive team without a traditional $40 yr QB. Even if they draft one (I think it’s 60/40 they do), I don’t think they do the traditional thing and throw him out there quick. I absolutely believe the story of Lock being sold on competing for the starter role and I’d bet a mortgage payment on him getting 6 starts minimum. Particularly if they draft JJ or Maye they won’t throw a rookie like that behind an o line that doesn’t look competent. I also think there’s at least one QB that they’ll leave on the board for a bunch of picks instead. JS has shown on multiple occasions he loves draft picks. Hell ride the QB fever wave to a boatload if he can.
|
|
|
Post by cdngfan on Apr 17, 2024 12:41:51 GMT -5
Sorry for my long response on that other post but I didn’t see this when I drafted that book. This was a huge part of the point Im making. If we passed over Maye at 6 it doesn’t sound like you’d be pissed. Neither would I. I’d feel the same way if they draft a QB. JUST BE RIGHT. I don’t think we can afford a boom/bust pick at 6. Pick whomever your scouts are saying is as sure thing a pick as you have seen. We need at starter who turns ou and makes a big difference in games. It really doesn’t matter what position they play. If you don’t have someone like that available at 6, ESPECIALLY if there’s a QB on the board, then absolutely rip off some other GM who is saviour shopping. Picks are more chances at getting your scouting right. JS won’t be fired until 25 anyway. Use the whole clock. Lol, no problem, it was a good post and I replied with my own lengthy post before I saw this I always respond in order of my notifications before reading all of them. great minds. I clearly just did the same thing.
|
|
|
Post by Nite on Apr 17, 2024 12:43:05 GMT -5
The problem with a lot of fans is that they would rather wallow in mediocrity than take a chance at being good (or at least functional). By not taking a chance nothing will change. I think that attitude permeates the FO of this team. Until I see otherwise that will be my pov. So are you extending JS contract if he picks a QB that tanks because he took a shot at being great? Do you not extend his contract because he took a WR? Are you firing him if he wins 10 games in 25 but doesn’t come close to a championship? Stop trying to be mediocre is a view from the comfort of our chairs where a big swing and a miss frankly doesn’t impact us at all. A big swing and a miss for a GM who has probably already had a big swing and a miss in DJ’s contract is most likely fatal. Unless you’re going to guarantee your GM a job, moving from horrible to mediocre is going to be what every GM strives for because it keeps them employed. I’m not disagreeing with you. But taking big chances to be great starts with ownership, not the GM. I don’t think we have that owner. That was sorta Dan Synder though. “Take huge improbable risks and make sure they turn out or you’re fired” was his management style. You didn't understand what I said. The problem is since you didn't understand you formulated a response on based things that you assumed I said or will say but didn't. I think I offended you lol.. The FO comment that triggered you was aimed at the residual Mara people there and of course Mara's 'non-interference' in football matters. No worries man, crack open a molsen and have a donut at Tim Horton's (or whatever passes for IHOP up there)..
|
|
|
Post by cdngfan on Apr 17, 2024 12:59:22 GMT -5
So are you extending JS contract if he picks a QB that tanks because he took a shot at being great? Do you not extend his contract because he took a WR? Are you firing him if he wins 10 games in 25 but doesn’t come close to a championship? Stop trying to be mediocre is a view from the comfort of our chairs where a big swing and a miss frankly doesn’t impact us at all. A big swing and a miss for a GM who has probably already had a big swing and a miss in DJ’s contract is most likely fatal. Unless you’re going to guarantee your GM a job, moving from horrible to mediocre is going to be what every GM strives for because it keeps them employed. I’m not disagreeing with you. But taking big chances to be great starts with ownership, not the GM. I don’t think we have that owner. That was sorta Dan Synder though. “Take huge improbable risks and make sure they turn out or you’re fired” was his management style. You didn't understand what I said. The problem is since you didn't understand you formulated a response on based things that you assumed I said or will say but didn't. I think I offended you lol.. The FO comment that triggered you was aimed at the residual Mara people there and of course Mara's 'non-interference' in football matters. No worries man, crack open a molsen and have a donut at Tim Horton's (or whatever passes for IHOP up there).. . If I misunderstood your point I’d be happy if you clarified. I usually agree with what you write on here so I’m genuinely interested. And we’re all drinking craft beer up here now. Molson is pretty pissed about it.
|
|
|
Post by BigBlueDog42 on Apr 17, 2024 13:06:17 GMT -5
Actually this makes more sense my issue is if 1 through 3 Caleb Daniels and Maye go not sure bout giving up capital for JJ he is young tho and can get better. I’ve watched enough tape of his good bad and ugly….he can be taught. All depends on what he’s actually thinking about during his meditation before games…if it’s about cheerleaders, being sacked or kegs of beer…we made a mistake. He is worth the dart ….IMHO of course I'm more worried about if teams force him to use his left side seems he has some issues there and from what I have seen not much touch but as you say he can learn and is known as a hard worker.
|
|
|
Post by vinnie on Apr 17, 2024 13:08:28 GMT -5
This perfectly describes Jerry Jones, just stay relevant, but after 30 years of mediocrity and three 12 win seasons in a row, even most of their fans have had it and want to blow it all up, especially with Dak. Well they kick our ass on a continuous basis and make the playoffs on a continuous basis. They have accomplished waaay more than what we do. Their team is better and have a shot at a championship almost on a yearly basis. I would take that 'mediocrity' over our version As of lately yes, the past 30 years, no. I guess they have a shot but not according to most of their fans as long as Dak is the QB. They haven’t advanced past the 2nd round since Dak has been their QB and the only time in the past ~28 years that they got the bye for having the best record in the conference is when we went to their house and beat them en route to the Super Bowl. Romo and Witten thought it would be a good idea to spend their week off in Cabo frolicking around in the waves with each other (and Jessica Simpson and Wittens wife IIRC) instead of studying game film of the teams they might be playing.
|
|
southerner
Starter
Bearer of Bad News
Posts: 4,216
|
Post by southerner on Apr 17, 2024 13:23:01 GMT -5
I can’t wait to hear the discussion next year about how many future first round picks we’ll have to give up just to step up to the plate for a QB, let alone take a swing at one, when this year we’re already at the plate. Everyone pretty much acknowledges that at least half of all QB’s taken in the first round will be a bust so they don’t want the Giants to risk takin one with the 6th pick with a stud WR there and they don’t want the Giants to give up future picks to move up and get one. In all probability we’ll be taking the exact same risk on drafting a QB next year but will have to give up much, much, much more. So when exactly do you guys plan on addressing the QB? Do you think we should just throw away valuable 2nd and 3d round picks on a QB that has less than a 5-10% chance of becoming a starter? Are you relying on finding the next Purdy, Romo or Brady? I don’t understand the logic of not wanting to get a QB now because it’s a big risk but wanting to wait another year when that same risk will cost you that many more picks, and I guarantee you, this roster will still need a lot of work next year and we’ll want those picks. No, taking the 4th or 5th highest QB with a top 10 pick is stupid…….you take a stud at some other position or better yet, trade down. If Danny Dimes still blows this year, the Giants will back in the top 5, maybe number 1 next for the new HC and GM to select a QB without a mountain of guaranteed money lost with the cutting of Jones.
|
|
|
Post by vinnie on Apr 17, 2024 14:54:23 GMT -5
I can’t wait to hear the discussion next year about how many future first round picks we’ll have to give up just to step up to the plate for a QB, let alone take a swing at one, when this year we’re already at the plate. Everyone pretty much acknowledges that at least half of all QB’s taken in the first round will be a bust so they don’t want the Giants to risk takin one with the 6th pick with a stud WR there and they don’t want the Giants to give up future picks to move up and get one. In all probability we’ll be taking the exact same risk on drafting a QB next year but will have to give up much, much, much more. So when exactly do you guys plan on addressing the QB? Do you think we should just throw away valuable 2nd and 3d round picks on a QB that has less than a 5-10% chance of becoming a starter? Are you relying on finding the next Purdy, Romo or Brady? I don’t understand the logic of not wanting to get a QB now because it’s a big risk but wanting to wait another year when that same risk will cost you that many more picks, and I guarantee you, this roster will still need a lot of work next year and we’ll want those picks. No, taking the 4th or 5th highest QB with a top 10 pick is stupid…….you take a stud at some other position or better yet, trade down. If Danny Dimes still blows this year, the Giants will back in the top 5, maybe number 1 next for the new HC and GM to select a QB without a mountain of guaranteed money lost with the cutting of Jones. Doubtful we’ll be back in the top 5, or even top 10. We won 5 games with back ups and the overall roster will be better this year. Not to mention, how often is the 1st, 2nd or 3rd QB that much better than the 4th or 5th and by who’s standards are you using? Mel Kiper, Walter Football, overall “consensus” who get it wrong more often than not? Funny how two years ago you claimed Jones would be benched by the 10th game, when in actuality the Giants got lucky and Jones helped beat one of the worst defenses in playoff history, but here we are two years later and now you’re claiming we’ll be picking in the top 5 with a better roster. Sorry chief, don’t see it happening. Make no mistake, I’m no Jones fan (the player, not the person) and I don’t think we’ll make the playoffs but I also don’t see us being in the bottom 5 teams in the league. Probably not even bottom 8-10, especially if we draft a stud WR.
|
|
|
Post by Nick6475 on Apr 17, 2024 14:56:22 GMT -5
I can’t wait to hear the discussion next year about how many future first round picks we’ll have to give up just to step up to the plate for a QB, let alone take a swing at one, when this year we’re already at the plate. Everyone pretty much acknowledges that at least half of all QB’s taken in the first round will be a bust so they don’t want the Giants to risk takin one with the 6th pick with a stud WR there and they don’t want the Giants to give up future picks to move up and get one. In all probability we’ll be taking the exact same risk on drafting a QB next year but will have to give up much, much, much more. So when exactly do you guys plan on addressing the QB? Do you think we should just throw away valuable 2nd and 3d round picks on a QB that has less than a 5-10% chance of becoming a starter? Are you relying on finding the next Purdy, Romo or Brady? I don’t understand the logic of not wanting to get a QB now because it’s a big risk but wanting to wait another year when that same risk will cost you that many more picks, and I guarantee you, this roster will still need a lot of work next year and we’ll want those picks. No, taking the 4th or 5th highest QB with a top 10 pick is stupid…….you take a stud at some other position or better yet, trade down. If Danny Dimes still blows this year, the Giants will back in the top 5, maybe number 1 next for the new HC and GM to select a QB without a mountain of guaranteed money lost with the cutting of Jones. Just because the QB is the 4th/5th off the board does not mean he will end up as the 4th/5th best QB in this draft.
|
|
|
Post by IrishMike on Apr 17, 2024 16:22:07 GMT -5
my point isn’t that you skip QB because the risk is too great. If you’re scouting team is really excited about a QB, then go get him. I don’t get the “we better take a QB” opinion. That’s the equivalent of “you better find a wife this month”. Can you? Of course. Does it make sense to say “it better be now”? That’s entirely dependent on the candidates. So the fair point of “when will we be in a better position to take a QB” is still dependent on what we think of the candidates. You’re right, if we win more games the cost of acquiring the draft position to pick a rockstar QB gets more expensive. No argument from me on that. But my general opinion is too many teams are saviour hunting and i think it’s a waste of time and resources. The cost benefit analysis of it is horrible. Discounting rookies, looking at QBs with a minimum of two seasons under their belt, how many teams in the NFl have a QB that can beat the Chiefs? Maybe 4? I think Allen can, but hasn’t yet and I don’t know if he ever will. So what’s the point of sticking with Allen if realistically he can’t win Buffalo a championship? To boil down a post that’s too long to begin with. I think the goal should be to find a good enough QB. Finding a GOAT is pure ass luck in my opinion coupled with having the perfect mix of coaching and roster (and in some cases corresponding divisional incompetence) to have the right environment to grow a GOAT. The only way these good but not great teams can acquire a Mahomes is to become horrible and then get lucky. The other alternative is to try and get lucky staying “good enough” long enough that luck helps you win from that position. Either way, luck is a huge component of championships. So if we pick a QB at 6, or move up and grab one, I’ll be waiting to see how it turns out. If we don’t pick a QB, even if ones available at at 6 I won’t be disappointed. I don’t see building a championship team conventionally. And in fact when you’re rooting for a team in the league with a potential GOAT QB playing somewhere else, you have to envision a different way of developing and winning a championship. You’re not going to out-Mahomes Mahomes. I hate the "when will we be in this position again" argument. First off if Jones fails, causing us to want to replace him we will be in this position again. More importantly though, Mahommes was the #10 pick, Allen was #7 and the third QB taken, Rodgers was 24th, Jackson was 32nd and the 5th QB taken. You don't have to be drafting top 2 to get an amazing QB.
And my final reason for hating that thought process is because Schoen and Daboll might not be here if we fail, so they definitely shouldn't be taking chances because of some perceived notion in the future. Take the player that gives us the best chance to win, don't force a pick.
|
|
|
Post by IrishMike on Apr 17, 2024 16:24:57 GMT -5
+1. I'll take it a step further and say that drafting a QB isn't nearly as risky as it was a few years ago. These 4-5 year setbacks teams go through stem from the fact that QBs are given longer leashes than other positions. It doesn't make sense to me.
If a QB hasn't proven himself by the end of his 2nd season, move on. There's no reason why a franchise QB should need longer than that in today's NFL. If they do, then they're likely not an actual franchise QB and they're likely not going to be worth the huge contract they'll end up demanding if they do have a decent season or two.
This game has become completely catered to the offense and there are more capable QBs available each off-season than ever before. There is no reason why anyone should worry about the risk involved with drafting a QB these days because it's minimal.
Good thing you're not running the Bills lol.
Honest question though, how many truly "capable" QBs do you think are in the league? It seems like you're saying there are tons of them, are you saying teams don't draft QB busts?
|
|
|
Post by Morehead State on Apr 17, 2024 17:02:30 GMT -5
+1. I'll take it a step further and say that drafting a QB isn't nearly as risky as it was a few years ago. These 4-5 year setbacks teams go through stem from the fact that QBs are given longer leashes than other positions. It doesn't make sense to me.
If a QB hasn't proven himself by the end of his 2nd season, move on. There's no reason why a franchise QB should need longer than that in today's NFL. If they do, then they're likely not an actual franchise QB and they're likely not going to be worth the huge contract they'll end up demanding if they do have a decent season or two.
This game has become completely catered to the offense and there are more capable QBs available each off-season than ever before. There is no reason why anyone should worry about the risk involved with drafting a QB these days because it's minimal.
Good thing you're not running the Bills lol.
Honest question though, how many truly "capable" QBs do you think are in the league? It seems like you're saying there are tons of them, are you saying teams don't draft QB busts?
Really? Josh Allen was 10-6. Had 29 total TD's against 9 picks. And a playoff appearance. Most teams would give their right arm for a second year like that. They knew exactly what they had by then.
|
|
|
Post by Nite on Apr 17, 2024 17:05:41 GMT -5
Well they kick our ass on a continuous basis and make the playoffs on a continuous basis. They have accomplished waaay more than what we do. Their team is better and have a shot at a championship almost on a yearly basis. I would take that 'mediocrity' over our version As of lately yes, the past 30 years, no. I guess they have a shot but not according to most of their fans as long as Dak is the QB. They haven’t advanced past the 2nd round since Dak has been their QB and the only time in the past ~28 years that they got the bye for having the best record in the conference is when we went to their house and beat them en route to the Super Bowl. Romo and Witten thought it would be a good idea to spend their week off in Cabo frolicking around in the waves with each other (and Jessica Simpson and Wittens wife IIRC) instead of studying game film of the teams they might be playing. They should bring back Romo ha ha ha
|
|
|
Post by vinnie on Apr 17, 2024 17:13:59 GMT -5
As of lately yes, the past 30 years, no. I guess they have a shot but not according to most of their fans as long as Dak is the QB. They haven’t advanced past the 2nd round since Dak has been their QB and the only time in the past ~28 years that they got the bye for having the best record in the conference is when we went to their house and beat them en route to the Super Bowl. Romo and Witten thought it would be a good idea to spend their week off in Cabo frolicking around in the waves with each other (and Jessica Simpson and Wittens wife IIRC) instead of studying game film of the teams they might be playing. They should bring back Romo ha ha ha Romo and Dak were cut from the same cloth. One was undrafted and another a 4th round pick, neither of whom Jerry wanted, they both put up great regular season stats and both choked when it mattered most. Although Romo did play better in the playoffs whereas Dak has almost single handily been the reason they’ve lost.
|
|
|
Post by Nite on Apr 17, 2024 17:19:57 GMT -5
You didn't understand what I said. The problem is since you didn't understand you formulated a response on based things that you assumed I said or will say but didn't. I think I offended you lol.. The FO comment that triggered you was aimed at the residual Mara people there and of course Mara's 'non-interference' in football matters. No worries man, crack open a molsen and have a donut at Tim Horton's (or whatever passes for IHOP up there).. . If I misunderstood your point I’d be happy if you clarified. I usually agree with what you write on here so I’m genuinely interested. And we’re all drinking craft beer up here now. Molson is pretty pissed about it. Craft beer, good call.... Wella I woulda splain' it more but you went fanboi spaz on me and I became disinclined.. Hoqever (and however) we both have the same opinion regarding the QB. Sooo here it goes; If the FO likes a QB enough in the 1st (or even 2nd rnd - but by then ur playing draft pic Russian roulette) you GO FOR IT. Doesn't matter if he is a 'franchise' or not if he can put points on the board on consistent basis then that is enough. It is a dire need unfortunately. Without a decent one we are spinning our wheels.. Dithering and dickering and being cute is what the Mara FO does and what a lot of the msb wants to do. Hence landing us in our current place. Hopefully Mara lets Schoen do his job w/o interfering, or subtle interference through the media or 'sitting in' on meetings
|
|
|
Post by Nite on Apr 17, 2024 17:22:25 GMT -5
They should bring back Romo ha ha ha Romo and Dak were cut from the same cloth. One was undrafted and another a 4th round pick, neither of whom Jerry wanted, they both put up great regular season stats and both choked when it mattered most. Although Romo did play better in the playoffs whereas Dak has almost single handily been the reason they’ve lost. Ok then my opinion is that they should extend Dak and give him a 85M /yr for 10 years..Then rehire Jason Garret with Joe Judge as his assistant
|
|
|
Post by vinnie on Apr 17, 2024 17:25:09 GMT -5
my point isn’t that you skip QB because the risk is too great. If you’re scouting team is really excited about a QB, then go get him. I don’t get the “we better take a QB” opinion. That’s the equivalent of “you better find a wife this month”. Can you? Of course. Does it make sense to say “it better be now”? That’s entirely dependent on the candidates. So the fair point of “when will we be in a better position to take a QB” is still dependent on what we think of the candidates. You’re right, if we win more games the cost of acquiring the draft position to pick a rockstar QB gets more expensive. No argument from me on that. But my general opinion is too many teams are saviour hunting and i think it’s a waste of time and resources. The cost benefit analysis of it is horrible. Discounting rookies, looking at QBs with a minimum of two seasons under their belt, how many teams in the NFl have a QB that can beat the Chiefs? Maybe 4? I think Allen can, but hasn’t yet and I don’t know if he ever will. So what’s the point of sticking with Allen if realistically he can’t win Buffalo a championship? To boil down a post that’s too long to begin with. I think the goal should be to find a good enough QB. Finding a GOAT is pure ass luck in my opinion coupled with having the perfect mix of coaching and roster (and in some cases corresponding divisional incompetence) to have the right environment to grow a GOAT. The only way these good but not great teams can acquire a Mahomes is to become horrible and then get lucky. The other alternative is to try and get lucky staying “good enough” long enough that luck helps you win from that position. Either way, luck is a huge component of championships. So if we pick a QB at 6, or move up and grab one, I’ll be waiting to see how it turns out. If we don’t pick a QB, even if ones available at at 6 I won’t be disappointed. I don’t see building a championship team conventionally. And in fact when you’re rooting for a team in the league with a potential GOAT QB playing somewhere else, you have to envision a different way of developing and winning a championship. You’re not going to out-Mahomes Mahomes. I hate the "when will we be in this position again" argument. First off if Jones fails, causing us to want to replace him we will be in this position again. More importantly though, Mahommes was the #10 pick, Allen was #7 and the third QB taken, Rodgers was 24th, Jackson was 32nd and the 5th QB taken. You don't have to be drafting top 2 to get an amazing QB.
And my final reason for hating that thought process is because Schoen and Daboll might not be here if we fail, so they definitely shouldn't be taking chances because of some perceived notion in the future. Take the player that gives us the best chance to win, don't force a pick.
Really, so if Jones sucks so bad there’s not a chance they could put in a back up QB (or two) that does better than him? I know, sounds crazy, doesn’t it? I like how you bring up all the exceptions the rule. Sure, there are QB’s to be found all over the draft (Dak was 4th round, Brady 6th, Romo undrafted) but those are by far the exceptions and not the rule. There was a great article on BBV not too long ago that showed the percentages of QB drafted in each round and how successful they end up being. It’s hard enough hitting on a good one in the first and the percentages drop dramatically after that. Lol, sure Mike, it’s so easy finding a franchise QB I’m surprised any team wastes a top 10 pick on one. Not to mention, Jones could suck balls (as usual) and we could still end up with a decent record to due the defense and or other players on offense. Yeah, we could be in this position again but your reasoning for that is greatly flawed. A lot more will have to go wrong than Jones just sucking, as if Dabs would keep him in all 17 games if he was that bad anyways.
|
|
|
Post by cdngfan on Apr 17, 2024 17:36:02 GMT -5
. If I misunderstood your point I’d be happy if you clarified. I usually agree with what you write on here so I’m genuinely interested. And we’re all drinking craft beer up here now. Molson is pretty pissed about it. Craft beer, good call.... Wella I woulda splain' it more but you went fanboi spaz on me and I became disinclined.. Hoqever (and however) we both have the same opinion regarding the QB. Sooo here it goes; If the FO likes a QB enough in the 1st (or even 2nd rnd - but by then ur playing draft pic Russian roulette) you GO FOR IT. Doesn't matter if he is a 'franchise' or not if he can put points on the board on consistent basis then that is enough. It is a dire need unfortunately. Without a decent one we are spinning our wheels.. Dithering and dickering and being cute is what the Mara FO does and what a lot of the msb wants to do. Hence landing us in our current place. Hopefully Mara lets Schoen do his job w/o interfering, or subtle interference through the media or 'sitting in' on meetings completely misinterpreted your point. We basically share the same opinion. Mea culpa.
|
|
|
Post by piddy283 on Apr 17, 2024 19:15:00 GMT -5
+1. I'll take it a step further and say that drafting a QB isn't nearly as risky as it was a few years ago. These 4-5 year setbacks teams go through stem from the fact that QBs are given longer leashes than other positions. It doesn't make sense to me.
If a QB hasn't proven himself by the end of his 2nd season, move on. There's no reason why a franchise QB should need longer than that in today's NFL. If they do, then they're likely not an actual franchise QB and they're likely not going to be worth the huge contract they'll end up demanding if they do have a decent season or two.
This game has become completely catered to the offense and there are more capable QBs available each off-season than ever before. There is no reason why anyone should worry about the risk involved with drafting a QB these days because it's minimal.
Good thing you're not running the Bills lol.
Honest question though, how many truly "capable" QBs do you think are in the league? It seems like you're saying there are tons of them, are you saying teams don't draft QB busts?
lol....touche.
In terms of the number of capable QBs there are in the league, you're correct. I think there are tons of them. Just did a quick search on the ol' Google and counted 26. There are obviously varying degrees of "capable," but I don't think I stretched too far for anyone....except maybe Browning. Dude looked real good though from what I recall.
That said, here's the list I came up with. It doesn't include some of the rookies from last year or some of the borderline players like Brissett, Darnold, and Mariota. It also doesn't include the 5+ QBs about to be drafted next week. Capable QBs: - Lamar Jackson
- Josh Allen
- Joe Burrow
- Jake Browning
- Deshaun Watson
- CJ Stroud
- Trevor Lawrence
- Patrick Mahomes
- Justin Herbert
- Tua Tagovailoa
- Aaron Rodgers
- Russell Wilson
- Justin Fields
- Kirk Cousins
- Kyler Murray
- Dak Prescott
- Jared Goff
- Jordan Love
- Matthew Stafford
- Derek Carr
- Daniel Jones
- Tyrod Taylor
- Jalen Hurts
- Brock Purdy
- Geno Smith
- Baker Mayfield
|
|
|
Post by OrangeGiant on Apr 17, 2024 19:36:52 GMT -5
They should bring back Romo ha ha ha Romo and Dak were cut from the same cloth. One was undrafted and another a 4th round pick, neither of whom Jerry wanted, they both put up great regular season stats and both choked when it mattered most. Although Romo did play better in the playoffs whereas Dak has almost single handily been the reason they’ve lost. I just had this conversation with a friend/Cowboys fan. Their careers, to this point are very similar. Great stats and regular season success...underperformed and very arguably choked in the playoffs. Dak will never win a SB, just like Romo.
|
|
|
Post by IrishMike on Apr 18, 2024 18:58:40 GMT -5
Good thing you're not running the Bills lol.
Honest question though, how many truly "capable" QBs do you think are in the league? It seems like you're saying there are tons of them, are you saying teams don't draft QB busts?
Really? Josh Allen was 10-6. Had 29 total TD's against 9 picks. And a playoff appearance. Most teams would give their right arm for a second year like that. They knew exactly what they had by then. Yeah, Allen had a 58 completion percentage and an 85 rating and was 29th in PFF rating (not buying into it, but many people do) and many people calling him a bust etc. It's in the eye of the beholder though, what is "proving himself"? What teams would want and what fans want/think are very different things.
|
|