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Post by giantbob71 on Apr 17, 2024 13:37:47 GMT -5
I can't get on board with this train of thought. 2 hypotheticals.... 1. The same GM that gave a bad QB $160 million, is the same GM that picks the next QB, who ends up being a bust. 2. A new GM picks the next Mahomes/Burrow/Allen. Which one would "speed up the rebuild process?" It's damn sure not #1! Didn't we learn from Gettleman? A bad GM, given more time, just digs a deeper hole. We're Giants fans though...so you have to believe everyone is "The Man For The Job!", watch them fail, then tell everyone how you knew they sucked all along. Where are all the Gettleman defenders now? Who and when are you bringing in a new GM with the draft a few weeks away? Gettleman certainly did not help the Giants and left a mess that needed to be cleaned up. Can’t say Schoen is bad GM at this point, so I believe he gets 2 years to get the Giants back on the right track I'm not saying that Schoen should've been replaced this year...just not on board with the thought that he should get 4 years just because Gettleman got 4 years. If this team doesn't improve this year, Schoen should be shown the door. What issues does this team have that are still related to Gettleman? Jones is a Schoen issue now, Waller?...Schoen. Bad Oline?...Schoen. Blaming DG for this current mess is lazy. Schoen has created multiple problems on his own. Schoen is probably approaching wasting $150-200 million, on bad contracts/trades/draft picks, over 2 years, what would it take for you to think he's failing at his job? This roster is worse than it was last year, and the only hope to fix it, is to trade away next year's draft picks.
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Post by bluebuddha on Apr 17, 2024 13:43:04 GMT -5
How many playoff games has he won? you right we got a bargain with DJ and his one playoff win. Maybe we can double his contract with 2 playoff wins.
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Post by Nick6475 on Apr 17, 2024 13:49:31 GMT -5
I don't think it is a long list, but here are my three reasons. 1) Alt has only played LT. Using the #6 pick to play him at another position is not a good investment. 2) One of Neal/Eleumanor/Runyan will have to be depth which is good, but it's expensive depth. 3) That is a lot of money to invest in the OL and this could cause the Giants issues of lack of resources at other positions down the road. Thanks for the attempt but I find these excuses pretty weak. So many times college oline players are drafted and required to play a different spot or "projected" to play a different spot in the NFL but now it's bad to do with Alt. It's like nobody wants to admit that both Neal and Thomas are injury prone which trumps any of these excuses. Those are all fair points. I don't know the first thing about switching from one side to the other so maybe it's not as big a risk as I think, but it's still not his natural position so there is some risk involved. At #6, Schoen should be looking to avoid risk, not add to it.
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Post by Danke Schoen on Apr 17, 2024 13:54:27 GMT -5
Imagine if John Lynch was on such a short leash?
Or was shit canned after trading three first round picks to move up for Trey Lance?
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Post by inthezone on Apr 17, 2024 13:56:59 GMT -5
Thanks for the attempt but I find these excuses pretty weak. So many times college oline players are drafted and required to play a different spot or "projected" to play a different spot in the NFL but now it's bad to do with Alt. It's like nobody wants to admit that both Neal and Thomas are injury prone which trumps any of these excuses. Those are all fair points. I don't know the first thing about switching from one side to the other so maybe it's not as big a risk as I think, but it's still not his natural position so there is some risk involved. At #6, Schoen should be looking to avoid risk, not add to it. Schoen better have his focus on fixing the oline this season. He does have to hit on this pick and selecting the 4th QB seems a lot more of a risk then the best LT. In a few more days we will see how the draft ends up.
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Post by jimmieray on Apr 17, 2024 13:57:17 GMT -5
It's a compilation of what others here have posted, I don't watch college but respect and try to learn from you guys: A team can't repeatedly spend value draft capital over a short time at a single position, unless it's a QB. Neal's draft capital dictates that he deserves more time to work things out at RT, and not be "wasted" as just a Guard. Alt (I believe) has only played LT, there's no absolute guarantee he will adapt well to RT, and his draft value at #6 should not be spent for a RT. Our current roster is below average at QB and WR, with no difference makers that most other teams carry. Again, what I've read and considered to be real concerns. But if they did take Alt, I wouldn't get upset and would look forward to the results. Thanks for the response but this isn't a long list. It's wild how so many have decided Jones was a bad decision but want to keep putting Neal out there. It also seems that many college LT come into the NFL and play other positions their 1st season before being put at the LT spot so maybe my memory is wrong for the 1st time but this whole can't play another position on the oline is weak BS. So many times you can read a scouting report of a college oline player that claims they are more suited for a different position then they played in college. I didn't get into the whole need to grab a QB this draft (again, I don't follow college) or how injury prone (hard to dispute) and bad (I still support him) Jones is. Or even how there's difference maker WRs available. It could be much longer list. And I'm fine with Alt, but don't need to get into it with others who are adamant (and against Jones since day 1) about a new QB. I'm not here to prove I'm always right.
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Post by Danke Schoen on Apr 17, 2024 13:58:15 GMT -5
How many playoff games has he won? JFC lol Tim Tebow won a playoff game. Mark Sanchez won four playoff games. Stop clinging to, and regurgitating, bullshit.
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Post by inthezone on Apr 17, 2024 14:00:10 GMT -5
Imagine if John Lynch was on such a short leash? Or was shit canned after trading three first round picks to move up for Trey Lance? They haven't won the Super Bowl. Just saying.
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Post by inthezone on Apr 17, 2024 14:04:17 GMT -5
Thanks for the response but this isn't a long list. It's wild how so many have decided Jones was a bad decision but want to keep putting Neal out there. It also seems that many college LT come into the NFL and play other positions their 1st season before being put at the LT spot so maybe my memory is wrong for the 1st time but this whole can't play another position on the oline is weak BS. So many times you can read a scouting report of a college oline player that claims they are more suited for a different position then they played in college. I didn't get into the whole need to grab a QB this draft (again, I don't follow college) or how injury prone (hard to dispute) and bad (I still support him) Jones is. Or even how there's difference maker WRs available. It could be much longer list. And I'm fine with Alt, but don't need to get into it with others who are adamant (and against Jones since day 1) about a new QB. I'm not here to prove I'm always right.Not sure where any of this came from and I'm not trying to prove you wrong. You made a comment and I asked for a better explanation that. You aren't able to give it which doesn't matter either way and I'm sorry if it bothered you I did dispute the couple of your reasons you gave. You were the one who responded to me claiming my choice was a bad one with Alt so Jones has nothing to do with this.
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Post by jimmieray on Apr 17, 2024 14:20:18 GMT -5
I didn't get into the whole need to grab a QB this draft (again, I don't follow college) or how injury prone (hard to dispute) and bad (I still support him) Jones is. Or even how there's difference maker WRs available. It could be much longer list. And I'm fine with Alt, but don't need to get into it with others who are adamant (and against Jones since day 1) about a new QB. I'm not here to prove I'm always right.Not sure where any of this came from and I'm not trying to prove you wrong. You made a comment and I asked for a better explanation that. You aren't able to give it which doesn't matter either way and I'm sorry if it bothered you I did dispute the couple of your reasons you gave. You were the one who responded to me claiming my choice was a bad one with Alt so Jones has nothing to do with this. I thought I responded to Ranger about most here saying Alt is not the right player at this juncture. You could do a search for me ever saying someone here is wrong about football, and it will come up blank. If Alt is your guy, I will celebrate that if he's picked, with you and the 4 other members that stay on this board after that.
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Post by grayphoenix on Apr 17, 2024 14:24:42 GMT -5
Jones played what, 5 games behind a historically awful O-line before getting hurt? And now we're supposed to fire the GM?
Most ppl were pretty happy when we won that playoff game and signed Jones to his contract. And then after 5 games of mostly lying on his back it's a fireable offense? Not saying Jones is the answer at QB, but he sure has been the subject of a whole lot of revisionist history.
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Post by inthezone on Apr 17, 2024 14:31:27 GMT -5
Not sure where any of this came from and I'm not trying to prove you wrong. You made a comment and I asked for a better explanation that. You aren't able to give it which doesn't matter either way and I'm sorry if it bothered you I did dispute the couple of your reasons you gave. You were the one who responded to me claiming my choice was a bad one with Alt so Jones has nothing to do with this. I thought I responded to Ranger about most here saying Alt is not the right player at this juncture. You could do a search for me ever saying someone here is wrong about football, and it will come up blank. If Alt is your guy, I will celebrate that if he's picked, with you and the 4 other members that stay on this board after that.That's a great response! Yes you did respond to Rangers claiming there was a long list why he's a bad choice. My mistake.
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Post by myronguyton29 on Apr 17, 2024 14:49:29 GMT -5
I bet it's WR and if anything go back up to get a qb if they want a qb Draft a WR at #6 and then move up for one?? move up in the 2nd depending on if Penix is still there. Not sure I'd want to do that with Nix
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Post by Rangers13 on Apr 17, 2024 14:56:07 GMT -5
Draft a WR at #6 and then move up for one?? move up in the 2nd depending on if Penix is still there. Not sure I'd want to do that with Nix I think they go earlier but if the do trade up, what are your trading for? The third string QB? Red shirt and then? When do you train him?
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Post by myronguyton29 on Apr 17, 2024 15:04:37 GMT -5
move up in the 2nd depending on if Penix is still there. Not sure I'd want to do that with Nix I think they go earlier but if the do trade up, what are your trading for? The third string QB? Red shirt and then? When do you train him? well i don't like any of the qb's that will involve us going up from 6 and frankly Penix might be the only one literally there to go up into the 2nd or heck even late first to get but might still cost too much. Anyone else not worth it IMO......
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Post by Fletch842 on Apr 17, 2024 15:12:42 GMT -5
I think they go earlier but if the do trade up, what are your trading for? The third string QB? Red shirt and then? When do you train him? well i don't like any of the qb's that will involve us going up from 6 and frankly Penix might be the only one literally there to go up into the 2nd or heck even late first to get but might still cost too much. Anyone else not worth it IMO...... my guess is that both Nix and Penix go in the 1st (Personally I'd take Penix over Nix), and even if one of them makes it into the 2nd, I would not spend picks to move up. Just not that enamoured with any of the QB prospects to do that this year.
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Post by Nick6475 on Apr 17, 2024 15:15:57 GMT -5
well i don't like any of the qb's that will involve us going up from 6 and frankly Penix might be the only one literally there to go up into the 2nd or heck even late first to get but might still cost too much. Anyone else not worth it IMO...... my guess is that both Nix and Penix go in the 1st (Personally I'd take Penix over Nix), and even if one of them makes it into the 2nd, I would not spend picks to move up. Just not that enamoured with any of the QB prospects to do that this year. Putting a lefty QB (Penix) behind that OL is just mean.
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Post by myronguyton29 on Apr 17, 2024 15:17:33 GMT -5
my guess is that both Nix and Penix go in the 1st (Personally I'd take Penix over Nix), and even if one of them makes it into the 2nd, I would not spend picks to move up. Just not that enamoured with any of the QB prospects to do that this year. Putting a lefty QB (Penix) behind that OL is just mean. yeah that's the only thing in having to shift your Oline and make plans for that left handed qb so then there's that..........
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Post by giantbob71 on Apr 17, 2024 15:21:44 GMT -5
Imagine if John Lynch was on such a short leash? Or was shit canned after trading three first round picks to move up for Trey Lance? Comparing Lynch to Schoen is like comparing DJ to Montana. One, or even a couple misses, and Schoen wouldn't be on the hot seat...dude has missed on 75%+ of his moves. Lynch has built a perennial SB contender, Schoen has (probably...time will tell) made the roster worse, following one of the worst GMs in NFL history. 2022 was mostly DG guys, and the more Schoen churns the roster, the worse it looks. This another 6 year plan?
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Post by inconvenientruth on Apr 17, 2024 15:24:40 GMT -5
He's had two seasons, were they supposed to fire him because Jones was injured? Nah, you see, Burrows is hurt, but no one is questioning his worth. Why? because he's a talented QB who has a track record of above average QB production. Jones was a bad signing, bad production, and serial killer eyes. Can't we just embrace this as a fan base and move on? It was an emotional decision, we got it wrong. OP mentions a GM that thinks this is unique (it is).
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Post by inconvenientruth on Apr 17, 2024 15:29:50 GMT -5
He says the following: "It is really unusual because most of us won't ever get a second chance like that. You know when you make a decision like that — drafting a quarterback high or signing one to a huge deal — it's either going to get you a new contract someday or it'll get you fired. It's the biggest decision you can make, and most places don't let you make it twice." 1. He never never drafted Jones 2. He didn’t go shopping on the open market for a QB Jones was in the unique position to get drafted, had multiple coaches, on his 2nd GM and the entire organization has been upside down. They declined his 5th yr option and it didn’t appear to make much sense to go shopping for QBs who didn’t seem to workout elsewhere. Jones questionable health is in question as much as his ability now. This draft, could quickly be it for this bunch. Go QB and miss they’re dead and pass on a QB and stick with Jones who isn’t good or healthy they might be dead. is drafting Jones at #6 in 2019, a bigger blunder than giving him $80MM guaranteed when you had the option of letting him walk? I get the 2019, to a degree. Schoen negotiated against himself and got it wrong. Not sure why this error is so hard for Giants fans to admit.
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Post by Rangers13 on Apr 17, 2024 15:46:36 GMT -5
1. He never never drafted Jones 2. He didn’t go shopping on the open market for a QB Jones was in the unique position to get drafted, had multiple coaches, on his 2nd GM and the entire organization has been upside down. They declined his 5th yr option and it didn’t appear to make much sense to go shopping for QBs who didn’t seem to workout elsewhere. Jones questionable health is in question as much as his ability now. This draft, could quickly be it for this bunch. Go QB and miss they’re dead and pass on a QB and stick with Jones who isn’t good or healthy they might be dead. is drafting Jones at #6 in 2019, a bigger blunder than giving him $80MM guaranteed when you had the option of letting him walk? I get the 2019, to a degree. Schoen negotiated against himself and got it wrong. Not sure why this error is so hard for Giants fans to admit. did you read everything I wrote? And if you have been following you should know where I stand
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Post by Fletch842 on Apr 17, 2024 15:50:16 GMT -5
Putting a lefty QB (Penix) behind that OL is just mean. yeah that's the only thing in having to shift your Oline and make plans for that left handed qb so then there's that.......... Take Fuaga in the first (he's a beast, and a natural right tackle) and Penix with our pick in the 2nd (not that he'll last that long) and problem solved...
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Post by inconvenientruth on Apr 17, 2024 15:53:18 GMT -5
is drafting Jones at #6 in 2019, a bigger blunder than giving him $80MM guaranteed when you had the option of letting him walk? I get the 2019, to a degree. Schoen negotiated against himself and got it wrong. Not sure why this error is so hard for Giants fans to admit. did you read everything I wrote? And if you have been following you should know where I stand I know where you stand. We're more/less in line. Moreso a conversation for the group. Is the 2019 decision to draft Jones worse than the 2023 decision to double down on the sunk cost? I believe Schoen did worse than Getty here. Which for most GMs in NFL history, means you're shit outta luck.
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Post by Nick6475 on Apr 17, 2024 16:19:08 GMT -5
did you read everything I wrote? And if you have been following you should know where I stand I know where you stand. We're more/less in line. Moreso a conversation for the group. Is the 2019 decision to draft Jones worse than the 2023 decision to double down on the sunk cost? I believe Schoen did worse than Getty here. Which for most GMs in NFL history, means you're shit outta luck. Both were clearly bad decisions but I still think the Getty one was worse. I think the 2023 decision was more complicated than you state above. Clearly 2022 was a mirage and as a fan it is very easy to say "Hey, just don't sign Jones and go with some random FA at QB! You can suck next year and get your future QB in next year's draft!" But if your Schoen and Daboll coming off a year where the Giants not only made the playoffs for the first time in 6 years, but won a game for the first time in over a decade. Daboll gets COY and Jones actually looks relatively decent compared to his past seasons. Again, their FIRST chance as a GM/HC, you expect them to go up to Mara and say, "Ehhh, let's rebuild with a new QB." That is a ginormous risk to take in your first year in your dream job. If that fails, Shoen is never getting another GM job or it's going to take him years to rebuild his reputation.
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Post by inconvenientruth on Apr 17, 2024 16:26:44 GMT -5
I know where you stand. We're more/less in line. Moreso a conversation for the group. Is the 2019 decision to draft Jones worse than the 2023 decision to double down on the sunk cost? I believe Schoen did worse than Getty here. Which for most GMs in NFL history, means you're shit outta luck. Both were clearly bad decisions but I still think the Getty one was worse. I think the 2023 decision was more complicated than you state above. Clearly 2022 was a mirage and as a fan it is very easy to say "Hey, just don't sign Jones and go with some random FA at QB! You can suck next year and get your future QB in next year's draft!" But if your Schoen and Daboll coming off a year where the Giants not only made the playoffs for the first time in 6 years, but won a game for the first time in over a decade. Daboll gets COY and Jones actually looks relatively decent compared to his past seasons. Again, their FIRST chance as a GM/HC, you expect them to go up to Mara and say, "Ehhh, let's rebuild with a new QB." That is a ginormous risk to take in your first year in your dream job. If that fails, Shoen is never getting another GM job or it's going to take him years to rebuild his reputation. I don't even think random was the answer, Tyrod would have been a fine QB as a bridge, until we find our guy. $40MM versus $6MM for no material change in outcome. Both were injury risks I would have taken the $40MM and re-invested it in our roster, around Tyrod, until we found our QB. To me, its an opportunity cost game. If Schoen/Daboll knew that Jones needed support to function as a QB, how do we afford it? while giving him near 20% of the cap. It was bad process, but not a bad process you cant come back from. Daboll won Coach of The Year, largely, because everyone knew we won with a bad QB. If we had a top-10 QB, Daboll doesn't win COTY Was there some ego involed from Daboll/Schoen? I dont see what they saw. And they competed against themselves!
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Post by Nick6475 on Apr 17, 2024 16:38:41 GMT -5
Both were clearly bad decisions but I still think the Getty one was worse. I think the 2023 decision was more complicated than you state above. Clearly 2022 was a mirage and as a fan it is very easy to say "Hey, just don't sign Jones and go with some random FA at QB! You can suck next year and get your future QB in next year's draft!" But if your Schoen and Daboll coming off a year where the Giants not only made the playoffs for the first time in 6 years, but won a game for the first time in over a decade. Daboll gets COY and Jones actually looks relatively decent compared to his past seasons. Again, their FIRST chance as a GM/HC, you expect them to go up to Mara and say, "Ehhh, let's rebuild with a new QB." That is a ginormous risk to take in your first year in your dream job. If that fails, Shoen is never getting another GM job or it's going to take him years to rebuild his reputation. I don't even think random was the answer, Tyrod would have been a fine QB as a bridge, until we find our guy. $40MM versus $6MM for no material change in outcome. Both were injury risks I would have taken the $40MM and re-invested it in our roster, around Tyrod, until we found our QB. To me, its an opportunity cost game. If Schoen/Daboll knew that Jones needed support to function as a QB, how do we afford it? while giving him near 20% of the cap. It was bad process, but not a bad process you cant come back from. Daboll won Coach of The Year, largely, because everyone knew we won with a bad QB. If we had a top-10 QB, Daboll doesn't win COTY Was there some ego involed from Daboll/Schoen? I dont see what they saw. And they competed against themselves! You are right, that would have been the way to go, not arguing that. It's more around how it's hard to predict how you would react to circumstances you are not in. Similar to pretending you win the lottery, I would hope I was smart with the money and allocated it well, but I have no idea how I would actually react because I've never been in that situation. I'll also add that success (however it may be obtained) in the NFL is extremely difficult. When it happens, you build on it, you don't tear it down.
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Post by ocgiant on Apr 17, 2024 17:09:18 GMT -5
Who and when are you bringing in a new GM with the draft a few weeks away? Gettleman certainly did not help the Giants and left a mess that needed to be cleaned up. Can’t say Schoen is bad GM at this point, so I believe he gets 2 years to get the Giants back on the right track I'm not saying that Schoen should've been replaced this year...just not on board with the thought that he should get 4 years just because Gettleman got 4 years. If this team doesn't improve this year, Schoen should be shown the door. What issues does this team have that are still related to Gettleman? Jones is a Schoen issue now, Waller?...Schoen. Bad Oline?...Schoen. Blaming DG for this current mess is lazy. Schoen has created multiple problems on his own. Schoen is probably approaching wasting $150-200 million, on bad contracts/trades/draft picks, over 2 years, what would it take for you to think he's failing at his job? This roster is worse than it was last year, and the only hope to fix it, is to trade away next year's draft picks. On the contary, I do agree Schoen own's all of it and he is cleaning it up (dealt with roster & dead money etc.) as best he could/can so yes he's made some mistakes (do does every GM) but you fail to point out the good things he as done. The Giants have been bad for what a decade? It does not turn around overnight as fans have witnessed. Unfortunately, it's not on a time table you care for. There is the DJ out clause after '24 so least Schoen had that foresight and Mara likes DJ too, Waller deal did not pan out since he's probably not coming back (his personnel decisions go both ways). The O-Line looks like it can be average this year and that unamazingly will be an improvement. So to me, Schoen has done enough to be the GM and I am good with it. You do not like Schoen, it's okay, I see it differently.
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Post by Danke Schoen on Apr 17, 2024 17:18:42 GMT -5
Imagine if John Lynch was on such a short leash? Or was shit canned after trading three first round picks to move up for Trey Lance? Comparing Lynch to Schoen is like comparing DJ to Montana. One, or even a couple misses, and Schoen wouldn't be on the hot seat...dude has missed on 75%+ of his moves. Lynch has built a perennial SB contender, Schoen has (probably...time will tell) made the roster worse, following one of the worst GMs in NFL history. 2022 was mostly DG guys, and the more Schoen churns the roster, the worse it looks. This another 6 year plan? Comparing 2018 Lynch to Schoen. You know, their respective second years. Sorry if the obvious wasn’t clear.
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mendy
Starter
Posts: 3,922
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Post by mendy on Apr 17, 2024 18:09:45 GMT -5
Imagine if John Lynch was on such a short leash? Or was shit canned after trading three first round picks to move up for Trey Lance? Comparing Lynch to Schoen is like comparing DJ to Montana. One, or even a couple misses, and Schoen wouldn't be on the hot seat...dude has missed on 75%+ of his moves. Lynch has built a perennial SB contender, Schoen has (probably...time will tell) made the roster worse, following one of the worst GMs in NFL history. 2022 was mostly DG guys, and the more Schoen churns the roster, the worse it looks. This another 6 year plan? Yeah they love Lynch(LOL)
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