|
Post by EliDaGoat713 on Dec 30, 2019 15:31:36 GMT -5
One thing we have to worry about with Gettleman is that he's not known for being a big spender in free agency and we have a lot of cap space this off-season. uh... he has spent big in FA. They've just been absolute trash decisions. Like Soldier & Kalil in Carolina. I wish he could evaluate talent as well as he thinks. He signed Golden?
|
|
southerner
Starter
Bearer of Bad News
Posts: 4,226
|
Post by southerner on Dec 30, 2019 15:34:14 GMT -5
One thing we have to worry about with Gettleman is that he's not known for being a big spender in free agency and we have a lot of cap space this off-season. Good, I’m glad he isn’t a spendthrift like Reese.....there is no way he should just spend money or overpay free agents just because he has the funds. That approach accomplishes nothing but replicate the disaster that was Reese. Gettleman should acquire good players, hopefully younger and those that can supplicant the roster. Even if they are backup linemen or whatever. The Giants need to strengthen the overall team, not blow their wad on a couple of big name, overpAid free agents. Gettleman did do this at left tackle, simple because there was no one else out there and he had to do something to replace that massive Reese first round mistake at left tackle. I wish he had not done it, but it did give the Giants two years of breathing space. I suspect this offseason will be all about Oline and linebackers......but we will see.
|
|
|
Post by thetruth on Dec 30, 2019 15:35:11 GMT -5
How many GMs have his FA record? Hes horrible. Im glad he has the aid of the scouting department for the draft, though. I agree, I can't and would not attempt to defend his FA signings. But I also don't play it both ways. I wouldn't credit the scouting department for the draft and then singularly blame him for FA signings. That seems capricious. As per finding Giants. Thats how it works. GM typically only scouts first/second round picks. The scouting department typically runs the draft in the mid-rounds, the Marc Ross's if you will. Which makes me wonder about all the mid round gems DG has found, chances are he hasn't scouted them and with all the players in NCAA - that makes sense. However, I keep reading about how we have all this cap space, problem is DG has not historically made any good FA signings. You can go down his list. Particuarily on the OL: LT :Matt Kalil (Car), Nate Solder C: John Halapio RG: Omameh (Fluker went to SEA - he/was was quite a bit better) RT: Remmers LG Hernendez also did not look good at all this past year. Jury is out on him. Im not convinced Dave is the guy that should be in charge of spending this cap space. His history is what it is
|
|
|
Post by thetruth on Dec 30, 2019 15:36:58 GMT -5
uh... he has spent big in FA. They've just been absolute trash decisions. Like Soldier & Kalil in Carolina. I wish he could evaluate talent as well as he thinks. He signed Golden? To a one year prove it deal. He played well, didn't generate as much consistent pressure what was good in spurts. but now what? Sign him and Williams? That'll be ~$25-30 MM/year combined for two mediocre players. But, we'll give him the Golden signing, who else? his "bad" FA list is.. extensive
|
|
|
Post by Dogecoin on Dec 30, 2019 15:39:40 GMT -5
Signed TheAnalyst You ****ing schmuck. You only got a 1st and 3rd and J Peppers? WTF is wrong with this man!? Trade Odell and keep Eli?! Our rebuild just got extended until 2022. When you have supposedly active and involved owners why do you need a GM? All he does is come between a potential quality HC and the owner-managers.
|
|
|
Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 30, 2019 15:40:44 GMT -5
Gettleman has been flip flopping on the win now / rebuild strategy though. I dont know who that is either. Im not going to defend all of DG’s moves, he’s made his fair share of mistakes. Here’s what I would say He took the heat for signing and trading Beckham but I think that was above his pay grade. I think Mara wants to decide if he’s writing 90m in checks and was willing to take the money and cap hit because Beckham was acting like a horse’s ass. He drafted Jones. No more QB hell He drafted Barkley. Some would say that’s bad value. He was OROY last year and gained 1000 yards on a high ankle sprain with a bad Oline (which admittedly is on DG). I think Barkley is great. He’s had two of the most productive drafts that the Giants have had in the last 10 years. Essentially ask yourself if the core of the team is stronger now than the day he came in and I would say yes. The core is stronger. He’s made mistakes in FA and trades tho I think getting Williams, if he signs for a fair number, would be a good trade not a bad trade. Respectfully, I dont think a lot of what you just said is true. Yes he did take heat for trading Odell, some of it was the lame "We love Odell how could you" stuff. Some was the "Trading the best WR this team has ever seen talent wise, right after resigning him to a huge extension, and only getting "that" in return is not a good football decision". We paid $16m for him to play on the Browns this season. I expected more picks in return than just the 17 and the Browns later 3rd round pick. And I think if he actually took phones calls and was good at negotiating (which seems he lacks), he would get a better value IMO. Much like the No Phone Calls during drafting Barkley. The 2018 draft of his is starting to fall apart a bit. Go look back at it. Hernandez fell apart this season taking a huge step back. Cater and Hill seem to be invisible way too much. ect. This is why drafts cant be evaluated for a couple years after. Im not sure the "core" of the team is better. Jones is obviously the big key in all of this.
|
|
southerner
Starter
Bearer of Bad News
Posts: 4,226
|
Post by southerner on Dec 30, 2019 15:41:38 GMT -5
I agree, I can't and would not attempt to defend his FA signings. But I also don't play it both ways. I wouldn't credit the scouting department for the draft and then singularly blame him for FA signings. That seems capricious. As per finding Giants. Thats how it works. GM typically only scouts first/second round picks. The scouting department typically runs the draft in the mid-rounds, the Marc Ross's if you will. Which makes me wonder about all the mid round gems DG has found, chances are he hasn't scouted them and with all the players in NCAA - that makes sense. However, I keep reading about how we have all this cap space, problem is DG has not historically made any good FA signings. You can go down his list. Particuarily on the OL: LT :Matt Kalil (Car), Nate Solder C: John Halapio RG: Omameh (Fluker went to SEA - he/was was quite a bit better) RT: Remmers LG Hernendez also did not look good at all this past year. Jury is out on him. Im not convinced Dave is the guy that should be in charge of spending this cap space. His history is what it is Sorry, but you are wrong on this one..you should be thankful for Gettleman. You aren’t so you should just get used to accepting it until Gettleman retires.
|
|
|
Post by Roswell on Dec 30, 2019 15:42:01 GMT -5
99% of the guys who kill him for signing Solder were screaming for him to replace Flowers with an established battle tested OT.
Stewart and Omaneh were horrible signings but for not a lot of guaranteed money and he owned those pretty quickly.
Ogletree was a bad trade. Jury is out on Williams.
Letting Collins go for a 3rd comp pick instead of huge money was good
Trading Beckham and Vernon was outstanding moving forward. They took the cap hit in a obvious rebuild year.
Smith was a good TE pickup
The Slayton pick alone has been a revelation. Connelly looked good and Golden was a nice signing.
It’s a mixed bag with DG. He deserves a third year to finish what he started.
|
|
|
Post by thetruth on Dec 30, 2019 15:43:28 GMT -5
As per finding Giants. Thats how it works. GM typically only scouts first/second round picks. The scouting department typically runs the draft in the mid-rounds, the Marc Ross's if you will. Which makes me wonder about all the mid round gems DG has found, chances are he hasn't scouted them and with all the players in NCAA - that makes sense. However, I keep reading about how we have all this cap space, problem is DG has not historically made any good FA signings. You can go down his list. Particuarily on the OL: LT :Matt Kalil (Car), Nate Solder C: John Halapio RG: Omameh (Fluker went to SEA - he/was was quite a bit better) RT: Remmers LG Hernendez also did not look good at all this past year. Jury is out on him. Im not convinced Dave is the guy that should be in charge of spending this cap space. His history is what it is Sorry, but you are wrong on this one..you should be thankful for Gettleman. You aren’t so you should just get used to accepting it until Gettleman retires.
|
|
|
Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 30, 2019 15:45:48 GMT -5
99% of the guys who kill him for signing Solder were screaming for him to replace Flowers with an established battle tested OT. Right, but signing a Patriots OL with zero pro bowl recognition (I know, probowl is meaningless) to the highest OL contract in the history of the game is not exactly what I would call a smart move. Its like making the coordinators under Belichick your HC.
|
|
|
Post by vbgiantsfan on Dec 30, 2019 15:48:37 GMT -5
99% of the guys who kill him for signing Solder were screaming for him to replace Flowers with an established battle tested OT. Right, but signing a Patriots OL with zero pro bowl recognition (I know, probowl is meaningless) to the highest OL contract in the history of the game is not exactly what I would call a smart move. Its like making the coordinators under Belichick your HC. Yeah it's not th signing that I had a problem with, it's the absurd cap breaking amount he gave him. Yes we had to replace Flowers but cost has to factor in somewhere. For a guy like Gettleman who "makes the tough decisions" he really just mortgages the offense on the easiest decision he could make and it backfired spectacularly.
|
|
|
Post by Roswell on Dec 30, 2019 15:53:01 GMT -5
Right, but signing a Patriots OL with zero pro bowl recognition (I know, probowl is meaningless) to the highest OL contract in the history of the game is not exactly what I would call a smart move. Its like making the coordinators under Belichick your HC. Yeah it's not th signing that I had a problem with, it's the absurd cap breaking amount he gave him. Yes we had to replace Flowers but cost has to factor in somewhere. For a guy like Gettleman who "makes the tough decisions" he really just mortgages the offense on the easiest decision he could make and it backfired spectacularly. You’re right but if you offer less you probably lose the guy and, in retrospect, that would’ve been okay but remember how desperate the Giants were because of the way the prior GM drafted. Desperate measures for desperate times.
|
|
|
Post by Sarcasman on Dec 30, 2019 15:57:15 GMT -5
I agree, I can't and would not attempt to defend his FA signings. But I also don't play it both ways. I wouldn't credit the scouting department for the draft and then singularly blame him for FA signings. That seems capricious. As per finding Giants. Thats how it works. GM typically only scouts first/second round picks. The scouting department typically runs the draft in the mid-rounds, the Marc Ross's if you will. Which makes me wonder about all the mid round gems DG has found, chances are he hasn't scouted them and with all the players in NCAA - that makes sense. However, I keep reading about how we have all this cap space, problem is DG has not historically made any good FA signings. You can go down his list. Particuarily on the OL: LT :Matt Kalil (Car), Nate Solder C: John Halapio RG: Omameh (Fluker went to SEA - he/was was quite a bit better) RT: Remmers LG Hernendez also did not look good at all this past year. Jury is out on him. Im not convinced Dave is the guy that should be in charge of spending this cap space. His history is what it is Well that's a lot of speculation so you can bend it however you like. I'm not disagreeing about the FA opportunities, I don't like his FA signings either but I can't be so completely disingenuous as to trash a guy for the performance in one aspect of his job while crediting his staff but not him for the parts that work.
|
|
southerner
Starter
Bearer of Bad News
Posts: 4,226
|
Post by southerner on Dec 30, 2019 16:01:36 GMT -5
Signed TheAnalyst You ****ing schmuck. You only got a 1st and 3rd and J Peppers? WTF is wrong with this man!? Trade Odell and keep Eli?! Our rebuild just got extended until 2022. When you have supposedly active and involved owners why do you need a GM? All he does is come between a potential quality HC and the owner-managers. I assume you are being facetious here.
|
|
|
Post by moecoastie on Dec 30, 2019 16:03:20 GMT -5
NOT TODAY FOLKS! Keep dreaming!
|
|
southerner
Starter
Bearer of Bad News
Posts: 4,226
|
Post by southerner on Dec 30, 2019 16:16:02 GMT -5
The Gettleman haters are those that still think Odell Beckham is the NFL star that he thinks he is......fact is Odell isn’t worth it and his actual production has been, is, and will be mediocre. Now that Cleveland dumped their coach, look for Odell to be on another team next September as he takes his traveling clown show on the road again.
|
|
|
Post by thetruth on Dec 30, 2019 16:32:39 GMT -5
As per finding Giants. Thats how it works. GM typically only scouts first/second round picks. The scouting department typically runs the draft in the mid-rounds, the Marc Ross's if you will. Which makes me wonder about all the mid round gems DG has found, chances are he hasn't scouted them and with all the players in NCAA - that makes sense. However, I keep reading about how we have all this cap space, problem is DG has not historically made any good FA signings. You can go down his list. Particuarily on the OL: LT :Matt Kalil (Car), Nate Solder C: John Halapio RG: Omameh (Fluker went to SEA - he/was was quite a bit better) RT: Remmers LG Hernendez also did not look good at all this past year. Jury is out on him. Im not convinced Dave is the guy that should be in charge of spending this cap space. His history is what it is Well that's a lot of speculation so you can bend it however you like. I'm not disagreeing about the FA opportunities, I don't like his FA signings either but I can't be so completely disingenuous as to trash a guy for the performance in one aspect of his job while crediting his staff but not him for the parts that work. Its not speculation. "Finding Giants" was a mini doc featuring.. the New York Giants. We agree his FA is trash. It hard to argue otherwise. However, about his drafts though. What part of his first draft is looking good? I suppose Saquon is great. However, Hernendez? Carter? BJ Hill? Kyle Lauletta? He also took a supplemental CB in Sam Beal whos played 5 games? For all the credit this draft class gets it looks suspect right now. One should expect more from a draft class where we had the #2 pick. DG also traded a 3rd and 4th, both high draft picks for the.. opportunity to sign an DE that had 0.5 sacks this past year. Williams has all the leverage in that negotiation, and he will fleece DG. Last year he drafted Jones. That is why is still has a job right now. We need more of that but wouldn't exactly bet on that to occur.
|
|
|
Post by Roswell on Dec 30, 2019 17:27:32 GMT -5
Well that's a lot of speculation so you can bend it however you like. I'm not disagreeing about the FA opportunities, I don't like his FA signings either but I can't be so completely disingenuous as to trash a guy for the performance in one aspect of his job while crediting his staff but not him for the parts that work. Its not speculation. "Finding Giants" was a mini doc featuring.. the New York Giants. We agree his FA is trash. It hard to argue otherwise. However, about his drafts though. What part of his first draft is looking good? I suppose Saquon is great. However, Hernendez? Carter? BJ Hill? Kyle Lauletta? He also took a supplemental CB in Sam Beal whos played 5 games? For all the credit this draft class gets it looks suspect right now. One should expect more from a draft class where we had the #2 pick. DG also traded a 3rd and 4th, both high draft picks for the.. opportunity to sign an DE that had 0.5 sacks this past year. Williams has all the leverage in that negotiation, and he will fleece DG. Last year he drafted Jones. That is why is still has a job right now. We need more of that but wouldn't exactly bet on that to occur. He drafted more than just Jones last year. You can argue that the Giants had one of the best drafts in the NFL in 2019.
|
|
|
Post by FundamentallySoundJones on Dec 30, 2019 17:34:53 GMT -5
The Gettleman haters are those that still think Odell Beckham is the NFL star that he thinks he is......fact is Odell isn’t worth it and his actual production has been, is, and will be mediocre. Now that Cleveland dumped their coach, look for Odell to be on another team next September as he takes his traveling clown show on the road again.
|
|
|
Post by Sarcasman on Dec 30, 2019 17:47:24 GMT -5
Well that's a lot of speculation so you can bend it however you like. I'm not disagreeing about the FA opportunities, I don't like his FA signings either but I can't be so completely disingenuous as to trash a guy for the performance in one aspect of his job while crediting his staff but not him for the parts that work. Its not speculation. "Finding Giants" was a mini doc featuring.. the New York Giants. We agree his FA is trash. It hard to argue otherwise. However, about his drafts though. What part of his first draft is looking good? I suppose Saquon is great. However, Hernendez? Carter? BJ Hill? Kyle Lauletta? He also took a supplemental CB in Sam Beal whos played 5 games? For all the credit this draft class gets it looks suspect right now. One should expect more from a draft class where we had the #2 pick. DG also traded a 3rd and 4th, both high draft picks for the.. opportunity to sign an DE that had 0.5 sacks this past year. Williams has all the leverage in that negotiation, and he will fleece DG. Last year he drafted Jones. That is why is still has a job right now. We need more of that but wouldn't exactly bet on that to occur. I'm aware of the show, the speculation is in the drawing of biased conclusions from incomplete information.
|
|
|
Post by Dogecoin on Dec 30, 2019 17:52:33 GMT -5
When you have supposedly active and involved owners why do you need a GM? All he does is come between a potential quality HC and the owner-managers. I assume you are being facetious here. no, if he's preventing quality coaches from coming here (like some reports have stated) why keep him? why even have the position? if you're a bill bellichick why do you need a dave gettleman between you and the owners?
|
|
|
Post by Sarcasman on Dec 30, 2019 17:59:12 GMT -5
The Gettleman haters are those that still think Odell Beckham is the NFL star that he thinks he is......fact is Odell isn’t worth it and his actual production has been, is, and will be mediocre. Now that Cleveland dumped their coach, look for Odell to be on another team next September as he takes his traveling clown show on the road again. Beckham will be fine and I believe he'll be a top 10 WR in the league again before long. In fact, some here have speculated that his production would increase significantly once he was free of that albatross Manning. Y'know because that would really help make the Beckham saved Manning's career canard seem just a little less ridiculous. So I'm obviously eager to see that. IMO, just matching that production consistently would be quite a feat let alone significantly improving upon it but I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Right now the only facts in evidence are: 2014*- 8th 2015- 8th 2016 - 3rd 2017* - N/A 2018* - 15th 2019 - 18th *incomplete season games missed due to injury
|
|
|
Post by Sarcasman on Dec 30, 2019 18:03:10 GMT -5
I assume you are being facetious here. no, if he's preventing quality coaches from coming here (like some reports have stated) why keep him? why even have the position? if you're a bill bellichick why do you need a dave gettleman between you and the owners? I think it's because no one has actually stepped up to own the "he's preventing quality coaches from coming here" narrative. It seems like one of those made up things. No quotes supporting that, no one on the record stating it and then defending it......it's silly really. If someone can put some support or evidence around it, I guess it deserves consideration but it may be forever before we ever see that.
|
|
|
Post by thetruth on Dec 30, 2019 19:48:16 GMT -5
Its not speculation. "Finding Giants" was a mini doc featuring.. the New York Giants. We agree his FA is trash. It hard to argue otherwise. However, about his drafts though. What part of his first draft is looking good? I suppose Saquon is great. However, Hernendez? Carter? BJ Hill? Kyle Lauletta? He also took a supplemental CB in Sam Beal whos played 5 games? For all the credit this draft class gets it looks suspect right now. One should expect more from a draft class where we had the #2 pick. DG also traded a 3rd and 4th, both high draft picks for the.. opportunity to sign an DE that had 0.5 sacks this past year. Williams has all the leverage in that negotiation, and he will fleece DG. Last year he drafted Jones. That is why is still has a job right now. We need more of that but wouldn't exactly bet on that to occur. I'm aware of the show, the speculation is in the drawing of biased conclusions from incomplete information. I think the both of us, objectively feel that Dave's FA signings have been bad. As for his drafts, their successes/failures are yet to be seen. However, simply assuming he's had good drafts is also biased and based on incomplete information. So how we can use that as evidence to why he should stay? The questions all of this begs is... to what aspect of the DG experience do we remain so loyal?
|
|
|
Post by Sarcasman on Dec 30, 2019 22:57:11 GMT -5
I'm aware of the show, the speculation is in the drawing of biased conclusions from incomplete information. I think the both of us, objectively feel that Dave's FA signings have been bad. As for his drafts, their successes/failures are yet to be seen. However, simply assuming he's had good drafts is also biased and based on incomplete information. So how we can use that as evidence to why he should stay? The questions all of this begs is... to what aspect of the DG experience do we remain so loyal? That's fair. It's incomplete so it serves neither side. As far as he is concerned, he's here but it doesn't sound like his leash is very long. That could just be Mara noise, I guess we'll have to wait and see.
|
|
|
Post by vbgiantsfan on Dec 31, 2019 1:32:51 GMT -5
We could have had Aaron Donald! If JR had listened to McAdoo doobie doo doo, we would’ve traded up in draft and choose Patrick Mahomes. Oh my. We could’ve had Patrick Mahomes, Aaron Donald and kept JPP. Forces of nature over the horizon. This post just ruined my week. McAdoo for GM?
|
|
mj312
Special Teams
Posts: 1,131
|
Post by mj312 on Dec 31, 2019 8:58:37 GMT -5
DG should be gone with schurmer .. how great can his drafts be when we are 9-22 over 2 years with them.. I don’t care about all the analytics crap behind the scenes of its not working . The only way we can judge a GM or coach is wins - losses ..
|
|
southerner
Starter
Bearer of Bad News
Posts: 4,226
|
Post by southerner on Dec 31, 2019 9:29:48 GMT -5
DG should be gone with schurmer .. how great can his drafts be when we are 9-22 over 2 years with them.. I don’t care about all the analytics crap behind the scenes of its not working . The only way we can judge a GM or coach is wins - losses .. His drafts were great. Lots of good players, but when the entire roster needs replacement, it takes time to rebuild the entire team.
|
|
|
Post by DandyDon on Dec 31, 2019 9:37:29 GMT -5
99% of the guys who kill him for signing Solder were screaming for him to replace Flowers with an established battle tested OT. Right, but signing a Patriots OL with zero pro bowl recognition (I know, probowl is meaningless) to the highest OL contract in the history of the game is not exactly what I would call a smart move. Its like making the coordinators under Belichick your HC. What would you have done to address the LT position at the time?
|
|
|
Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 31, 2019 11:19:18 GMT -5
Right, but signing a Patriots OL with zero pro bowl recognition (I know, probowl is meaningless) to the highest OL contract in the history of the game is not exactly what I would call a smart move. Its like making the coordinators under Belichick your HC. What would you have done to address the LT position at the time? Since Im just a fan it wasnt my job to find us the best situation, Im not sure. I dont remember all the options that were available at the time. Could we have gotten another FA for much cheaper and about the same average at best production? Could we have traded some assets for another better LT? Could we have drafted better and found one? I do know one thing. Gettleman was in charge and knew all the options and chose to give Solder, an average player at best, the largest contract an OL ever got. So regardless of what other options we had, his choice did not work out.
|
|