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Post by nysports98 on Aug 5, 2018 10:20:00 GMT -5
It boils down quite simply.........SB was not the draft pick this poster wanted. Therefore, anything short of a championship is a bust. Meanwhile, there is no guarantee that HIS pick would win a championship had the Giants picked him, but the "bust label" would not apply. lol - you've traditionally reached with this subjective and self serving summarization of what others post. It boils down to your own opinion which isn't even close to matching the reasoning why others post what they do. |
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Post by Roosevelt on Aug 5, 2018 10:24:03 GMT -5
Bart's best point IMO is the Giants have to win a Championship. Not a playoff game, a Championship. Otherwise, they blew a perfect opportunity to make a smooth transition from a Great Qb to likely a good one. It is a QB league. Win a Championship or, IMO, the Giants blew it. I don't care about a fantasy player or any other excuse. Bart made some interesting observations and we need to hope he’s wrong about them. |
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Post by nysports98 on Aug 5, 2018 10:26:13 GMT -5
AGREE + 100%
This team hasn't won a playoff game in 6 years, won only 3 games last season, has a ton of cash allocated to a QB who is 37 years old and had the #2 pick overall. That's the perfect foundation for rebuild IMO. Get my cheaper QB young QB, draft linemen, find myself a less costly HB and have more cap dollars. To me, that's a game plan beyond the immediate future. The way the Giants went about it, I'd say that's a short term plan and a much higher risk/gamble.
I agree with this completely as well. But they didn’t do this and that fact that they didn’t doesn’t mean the opposite guarantees any kind of success least of all a championship.
I don't like the risk. Somewhere during the injuries, Mac drama, etc I think the mediocre and very questionable decision making by Eli was lost. I hope I'm wrong yet it wouldn't surprise me if Eli is public enemy #1 come Oct.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Aug 5, 2018 10:26:25 GMT -5
AGREE + 100%
This team hasn't won a playoff game in 6 years, won only 3 games last season, has a ton of cash allocated to a QB who is 37 years old and had the #2 pick overall. That's the perfect foundation for rebuild IMO. Get my cheaper QB young QB, draft linemen, find myself a less costly HB and have more cap dollars. To me, that's a game plan beyond the immediate future. The way the Giants went about it, I'd say that's a short term plan and a much higher risk/gamble.
I agree with this completely as well. But they didn’t do this and that fact that they didn’t doesn’t mean the opposite guarantees any kind of success least of all a championship. they needed picks so they could start to get out from under the many contracts that are saying this team downcut of the 200 mill crew snacks is the only guy that has performed up to his contract,Jenkens did for one year OV has been decent but not top five,hopefully the new scheme will help I'm rich his potential, the QB is not the only big contract in need of attention,I think Shurmer believes in Webb or at least that they can win with him in the future |
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Post by nysports98 on Aug 5, 2018 10:30:28 GMT -5
Bart's best point IMO is the Giants have to win a Championship. Not a playoff game, a Championship. Otherwise, they blew a perfect opportunity to make a smooth transition from a Great Qb to likely a good one. It is a QB league. Win a Championship or, IMO, the Giants blew it. I don't care about a fantasy player or any other excuse. Bart made some interesting observations and we need to hope he’s wrong about them.
I think many fans felt this way before Scott even mentioning anything. I'm no fan of Scott as he's a strange fella IMO. I'm not concerned about Barkley's mentality on a short yardage situation, etc. I think he'll be great. The risk however based on the reasons mentioned. I'm concerned.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Aug 5, 2018 10:31:27 GMT -5
I agree with this completely as well. But they didn’t do this and that fact that they didn’t doesn’t mean the opposite guarantees any kind of success least of all a championship.
I don't like the risk. Somewhere during the injuries, Mac drama, etc I think the mediocre and very questionable decision making by Eli was lost. I hope I'm wrong yet it wouldn't surprise me if Eli is public enemy #1 come Oct.
He has been public enemy #1 since he was drafted, don't know about you but if they can protect him and run the ball I hope and believe he can still win, but I wouldn't pass judgement by outcome of what happens in the first couple games. |
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Post by nysports98 on Aug 5, 2018 10:37:28 GMT -5
I don't like the risk. Somewhere during the injuries, Mac drama, etc I think the mediocre and very questionable decision making by Eli was lost. I hope I'm wrong yet it wouldn't surprise me if Eli is public enemy #1 come Oct.
He has been public enemy #1 since he was drafted, don't know about you but if they can protect him and run the ball I hope and believe he can still win, but I wouldn't pass judgement by outcome of what happens in the first couple games. Oh please, Mac and Reese were public enemy #1. Like I posted, somewhere between in the injuries and drama I think many forgot how mediocre, inconsistent and how many questionable decisions/throws Eli has made.
We defended Eli since he was drafted against the fickle who attacked him relentlessly. The Giants blew it with Eli for years as they managed to build Archie Manning's Saints around him. Now he's 37 and the org decided to build around a 37 year old coming off a 3 win season. That's risky.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Aug 5, 2018 10:39:30 GMT -5
Bart's best point IMO is the Giants have to win a Championship. Not a playoff game, a Championship. Otherwise, they blew a perfect opportunity to make a smooth transition from a Great Qb to likely a good one. It is a QB league. Win a Championship or, IMO, the Giants blew it. I don't care about a fantasy player or any other excuse. Bart made some interesting observations and we need to hope he’s wrong about them. the biggest issue i had with what Bart said is that he didn't really delve into Barkely's whole game he seems to be more in the mold of Ladanian Tomlinson the Bart seemed to want to focus on the power game if you can jump cut and accelerate off it why go for 2 extra when he might get ten extra, and in the receiving game it's been a while since there has been a back that can run the route tree and be as affective as a wideout. |
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Post by nysports98 on Aug 5, 2018 10:40:55 GMT -5
It's about CHAMPIONSHIPS not stats. It's a QB league and when you pass on a QB with a 37 yr old QB who hasn't had a playoff win in 6 years you better win a Championship if you pass on a QB.
IF NONE OF THEM WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP THEN IT DOESN'T MATTER,easy thats all I'm saying,I wouldn't have drafted a QB but I might have traded the pick they had a ton to do and the picks would have come in handy.
I understand, and if teams with the best HB were winning Super Bowls I'd feel better.
Last I checked, Morris, Andersson, Meggett, Jacobs and Bradshaw weren't the best HB's and we've seen a lot of HB's drafted high who never won any Championships. We see it year after year.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Aug 5, 2018 10:45:05 GMT -5
He has been public enemy #1 since he was drafted, don't know about you but if they can protect him and run the ball I hope and believe he can still win, but I wouldn't pass judgement by outcome of what happens in the first couple games. Oh please, Mac and Reese were public enemy #1. Like I posted, somewhere between in the injuries and drama I think many forgot how mediocre, inconsistent and how many questionable decisions/throws Eli has made.
We defended Eli since he was drafted against the fickle who attacked him relentlessly. The Giants blew it with Eli for years as they managed to build Archie Manning's Saints around him. Now he's 37 and the org decided to build around a 37 year old coming off a 3 win season. That's risky.
I agree it's risky but so is drafting these young bucks, as far as JR and BM go and even more so Marc Ross I would like to just move on,think wether the giants did or didn't draft a QB they are pointed in a better direction now and a building from the inside out the way most successful teams do. |
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Post by nysports98 on Aug 5, 2018 10:45:58 GMT -5
Bart made some interesting observations and we need to hope he’s wrong about them. the biggest issue i had with what Bart said is that he didn't really delve into Barkely's whole game he seems to be more in the mold of Ladanian Tomlinson the Bart seemed to want to focus on the power game if you can jump cut and accelerate off it why go for 2 extra when he might get ten extra, and in the receiving game it's been a while since there has been a back that can run the route tree and be as affective as a wideout.
Bart's a weird fella. The list of cringe worthy things he says is pretty long.
With so many comparing Barkley to Sanders I kept saying Tomlinson. Every play Tomlinson gained yardage. Barkley could be that type of player.
I cringe though when I recall the Chargers. Rivers, Tomlinson, Gates, Jackson, solid OL good defense and they won nothing. Heck, the Jets beat them with Sanchez. It's like these teams with stars at the skill positions result in diminishing returns come playoff time. They're amazing and then come playoff time the magic is gone.
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Post by Roosevelt on Aug 5, 2018 10:46:53 GMT -5
Bart made some interesting observations and we need to hope he’s wrong about them. the biggest issue i had with what Bart said is that he didn't really delve into Barkely's whole game he seems to be more in the mold of Ladanian Tomlinson the Bart seemed to want to focus on the power game if you can jump cut and accelerate off it why go for 2 extra when he might get ten extra, and in the receiving game it's been a while since there has been a back that can run the route tree and be as affective as a wideout. Good points, although I have heard people discuss how NFL players will take his juke to the outside away from him. We’re going to have to wait and see I guess. But I think your point about receiving will be a huge upside for us as long as Eli is sharp. |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Aug 5, 2018 10:51:28 GMT -5
IF NONE OF THEM WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP THEN IT DOESN'T MATTER,easy thats all I'm saying,I wouldn't have drafted a QB but I might have traded the pick they had a ton to do and the picks would have come in handy.
I understand, and if teams with the best HB were winning Super Bowls I'd feel better.
Last I checked, Morris, Andersson, Meggett, Jacobs and Bradshaw weren't the best HB's and we've seen a lot of HB's drafted high who never won any Championships. We see it year after year.
I believe it all goes hand in hand to me it starts up front so that your HB can do what needs to be done chew clock, if he's big and fast with good OL that is gonna open the passing game if he can catch even better, problem we will have you can't judge a back or QB for that matter until you have competent blockers in front of them, that has been the Giants biggest issue the last 5 years, they drafted 2nd best guard in the draft and the best running back they are trying to fix it. |
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Post by Roosevelt on Aug 5, 2018 10:54:52 GMT -5
Bart made some interesting observations and we need to hope he’s wrong about them.
I think many fans felt this way before Scott even mentioning anything. I'm no fan of Scott as he's a strange fella IMO. I'm not concerned about Barkley's mentality on a short yardage situation, etc. I think he'll be great. The risk however based on the reasons mentioned. I'm concerned.
I was referring to his comments from a defensive player’s perspective. I’m not going to worry about us not drafting a QB at this stage because that ship sailed and Shurmur keeps saying Eli looks like he’s got years left. |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Aug 5, 2018 10:56:23 GMT -5
the biggest issue i had with what Bart said is that he didn't really delve into Barkely's whole game he seems to be more in the mold of Ladanian Tomlinson the Bart seemed to want to focus on the power game if you can jump cut and accelerate off it why go for 2 extra when he might get ten extra, and in the receiving game it's been a while since there has been a back that can run the route tree and be as affective as a wideout. Good points, although I have heard people discuss how NFL players will take his juke to the outside away from him. We’re going to have to wait and see I guess. But I think your point about receiving will be a huge upside for us as long as Eli is sharp. Yea I have read that think the thought process will be to keep him in the triangle, no back ever gets away with all the things that made them spectacular in college, even Zeke he's good but wonder if he played his first few years behind the Giants OL,if he would be getting the bust label, hard to believe he could be as productive without one of the top three OLs in the league. |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Aug 5, 2018 11:02:16 GMT -5
the biggest issue i had with what Bart said is that he didn't really delve into Barkely's whole game he seems to be more in the mold of Ladanian Tomlinson the Bart seemed to want to focus on the power game if you can jump cut and accelerate off it why go for 2 extra when he might get ten extra, and in the receiving game it's been a while since there has been a back that can run the route tree and be as affective as a wideout.
Bart's a weird fella. The list of cringe worthy things he says is pretty long.
With so many comparing Barkley to Sanders I kept saying Tomlinson. Every play Tomlinson gained yardage. Barkley could be that type of player.
I cringe though when I recall the Chargers. Rivers, Tomlinson, Gates, Jackson, solid OL good defense and they won nothing. Heck, the Jets beat them with Sanchez. It's like these teams with stars at the skill positions result in diminishing returns come playoff time. They're amazing and then come playoff time the magic is gone.
As the old saying goes defense wins championships Giants in 07 Ravens even tho I hate it in 2000,get to the playoffs and pretenders are sent home pretty quick gotta be physical and really sound on defense to win in the post season, if a team can rush the passer consistently game over. |
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Post by nysports98 on Aug 5, 2018 11:03:13 GMT -5
I think many fans felt this way before Scott even mentioning anything. I'm no fan of Scott as he's a strange fella IMO. I'm not concerned about Barkley's mentality on a short yardage situation, etc. I think he'll be great. The risk however based on the reasons mentioned. I'm concerned.
I was referring to his comments from a defensive player’s perspective. I’m not going to worry about us not drafting a QB at this stage because that ship sailed and Shurmur keeps saying Eli looks like he’s got years left. Yeah, that ship did sail and the one in the port is battleship with and All-World Receiver, an HB which was apparently "touched by God", a heck of a weapon at TE, some nice complimentary weapons like Shepherd and QB with a decade and a half experience who raised by a QB father and can always speak to his HOF brother. If this battleship can't win then God help them. No excuses |
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Post by Fletch842 on Aug 5, 2018 11:39:40 GMT -5
I was referring to his comments from a defensive player’s perspective. I’m not going to worry about us not drafting a QB at this stage because that ship sailed and Shurmur keeps saying Eli looks like he’s got years left. Yeah, that ship did sail and the one in the port is battleship with and All-World Receiver, an HB which was apparently "touched by God", a heck of a weapon at TE, some nice complimentary weapons like Shepherd and QB with a decade and a half experience who raised by a QB father and can always speak to his HOF brother. If this battleship can't win then God help them. No excuses as long as the line can put up a half decent showing, I agree with you here. As we know, you live/die in the trenches. |
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Post by Sarcasman on Aug 5, 2018 11:59:50 GMT -5
It's about CHAMPIONSHIPS not stats. It's a QB league and when you pass on a QB with a 37 yr old QB who hasn't had a playoff win in 6 years you better win a Championship if you pass on a QB.
IF NONE OF THEM WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP THEN IT DOESN'T MATTER,easy thats all I'm saying,I wouldn't have drafted a QB but I might have traded the pick they had a ton to do and the picks would have come in handy. Even if one of them does, it likely doesn’t matter. He - whomever this mystery QB is - will likely not be the difference between his team winning a championship or not. Again, I’m playing devils advocate here but for all the whining I’m reading here about this, I’ve yet to see anyone dispute the conclusions with facts. That’s not not to say there isn’t validity to the theory I believe it’s sound. But that’s all it is, a theory. And a theory that hasn’t been proven in practice. Architects draw plenty of designs that look great on paper, thankfully most engineers mofidy them for use in reality before building. |
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Post by Roosevelt on Aug 5, 2018 12:01:34 GMT -5
He has been public enemy #1 since he was drafted, don't know about you but if they can protect him and run the ball I hope and believe he can still win, but I wouldn't pass judgement by outcome of what happens in the first couple games. Oh please, Mac and Reese were public enemy #1. Like I posted, somewhere between in the injuries and drama I think many forgot how mediocre, inconsistent and how many questionable decisions/throws Eli has made.
We defended Eli since he was drafted against the fickle who attacked him relentlessly. The Giants blew it with Eli for years as they managed to build Archie Manning's Saints around him. Now he's 37 and the org decided to build around a 37 year old coming off a 3 win season. That's risky.
It doesn’t matter who’s at QB, the Giants clearly needed to upgrade their Oline and their RB positions. |
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Post by Sarcasman on Aug 5, 2018 12:08:47 GMT -5
I agree with this completely as well. But they didn’t do this and that fact that they didn’t doesn’t mean the opposite guarantees any kind of success least of all a championship.
I don't like the risk. Somewhere during the injuries, Mac drama, etc I think the mediocre and very questionable decision making by Eli was lost. I hope I'm wrong yet it wouldn't surprise me if Eli is public enemy #1 come Oct.
I hear ya. The risk/reward on this was a low percentage trade. I didn’t like it either but the FO and ownership has made it clear that they don’t give a crap about what I think. |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Aug 5, 2018 12:11:50 GMT -5
IF NONE OF THEM WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP THEN IT DOESN'T MATTER,easy thats all I'm saying,I wouldn't have drafted a QB but I might have traded the pick they had a ton to do and the picks would have come in handy. Even if one of them does, it likely doesn’t matter. He - whomever this mystery QB is - will likely not be the difference between his team winning a championship or not. Again, I’m playing devils advocate here but for all the whining I’m reading here about this, I’ve yet to see anyone dispute the conclusions with facts. That’s not not to say there isn’t validity to the theory I believe it’s sound. But that’s all it is, a theory. And a theory that hasn’t been proven in practice. Architects draw plenty of designs that look great on paper, thankfully most engineers mofidy them for use in reality before building. this is true we saw trent differ win we saw peyton manning win when he no longer had the arm strength or accuracy, it's not always one way. |
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Post by Sarcasman on Aug 5, 2018 12:17:53 GMT -5
I was referring to his comments from a defensive player’s perspective. I’m not going to worry about us not drafting a QB at this stage because that ship sailed and Shurmur keeps saying Eli looks like he’s got years left. Yeah, that ship did sail and the one in the port is battleship with and All-World Receiver, an HB which was apparently "touched by God", a heck of a weapon at TE, some nice complimentary weapons like Shepherd and QB with a decade and a half experience who raised by a QB father and can always speak to his HOF brother. If this battleship can't win then God help them. No excuses I don’t know, winning championships is hard. It’s like you’re describing the Chargers or Falcons above and what have they ever won? That Charger team was stacked with talent for years and never won anything and the Falcons remain so and have nothing to show for it. In my opinion championships are won in the trenches offensive and defensive lines, and the Giants are still deficient there. |
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Merc
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Post by Merc on Aug 5, 2018 12:33:36 GMT -5
Yeah, that ship did sail and the one in the port is battleship with and All-World Receiver, an HB which was apparently "touched by God", a heck of a weapon at TE, some nice complimentary weapons like Shepherd and QB with a decade and a half experience who raised by a QB father and can always speak to his HOF brother. If this battleship can't win then God help them. No excuses I don’t know, winning championships is hard. It’s like you’re describing the Chargers or Falcons above and what have they ever won? That Charger team was stacked with talent for years and never won anything and the Falcons remain so and have nothing to show for it. In my opinion championships are won in the trenches offensive and defensive lines, and the Giants are still deficient there. We need to see this Oline against other teams. Then we will be able to determine any deficiencies. For all we know, Bettcher's D may be the best in the league. Thursday is the first test. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2018 12:39:34 GMT -5
I watched 'em. There were some interesting points made but ultimately it's just talk. I can see why folks don't want to dabble in the negative, as there is nothing to be done about it now. But the reality is that the pick can absolutely turn out to be a miss. Hope not, but it's a possibility. I don't think the pick will be a miss, and I don't think Barkley will be a bust, or taken too high. I think the hype for his rookie season needs to be tapered down because right now it's through the roof and if things don't go well immediately it could cause a stir of attention that absolutely can affect a player mentally. These are real human beings we are talking about. Fan hype fuels media and vice versa. Let's just be realistic. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2018 12:50:38 GMT -5
It boils down quite simply.........SB was not the draft pick this poster wanted. Therefore, anything short of a championship is a bust. Meanwhile, there is no guarantee that HIS pick would win a championship had the Giants picked him, but the "bust label" would not apply. lol - you've traditionally reached with this subjective and self serving summarization of what others post. It boils down to your own opinion which isn't even close to matching the reasoning why others post what they do. lol.....seriously? Let me lay down some knowledge for you. Outside of posting only actual stats, EVERYTHING is subjective. The point I was making is that, until proven wrong, people are in love with their own opinions. Even when faced with logical counter arguments, or even FACTS, they hold tightly to their beliefs. You set an arbitrary goal that YOU deemed fair and logical. Several of us disagree and I am merely questioning your reasoning. There is no way to prove your opinion right or wrong. So the logical process is to question how you came to this conclusion. In order for your logic to compute, every player we didn't draft would have to be put on the same scale. Therefore, whoever wins a championship made the right draft choice and all others were busts. I don't know what SB is going to in the NFL.....but certainly you cannot deny that IF he becomes what we all hope he's hyped to be, but NEVER wins a championship that he's a bust or a bad pick. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2018 12:54:00 GMT -5
He has been public enemy #1 since he was drafted, don't know about you but if they can protect him and run the ball I hope and believe he can still win, but I wouldn't pass judgement by outcome of what happens in the first couple games. Oh please, Mac and Reese were public enemy #1. Like I posted, somewhere between in the injuries and drama I think many forgot how mediocre, inconsistent and how many questionable decisions/throws Eli has made.
We defended Eli since he was drafted against the fickle who attacked him relentlessly. The Giants blew it with Eli for years as they managed to build Archie Manning's Saints around him. Now he's 37 and the org decided to build around a 37 year old coming off a 3 win season. That's risky.
Who is and would be the starter for the season, barring injury, regardless of who we drafted. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2018 13:25:59 GMT -5
I didn't hear anyone saying this about Ezekiel Elliott. The entire sports media crowned him a god before he played his first game. Some of these commentators have an obvious bias. There was certainly a lot of hype for Zeke, but it's the Cowboys, everything overblown. With O-line they had the hype was merited, that was a big part of it. Thing with Zeke is his game was clearly translatable to the NFL, because he runs between the tackles as well as he can bounce outside, he likes to initiate contact, and can catch. He's an every down back. The hype on Barkley imo is beyond what Zeke saw. We do not have the O-line they had when Zeke was drafted. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2018 13:30:27 GMT -5
I watched 'em. There were some interesting points made but ultimately it's just talk. I can see why folks don't want to dabble in the negative, as there is nothing to be done about it now. But the reality is that the pick can absolutely turn out to be a miss. Hope not, but it's a possibility. "Ultimately it's just talk" Really? I didn't know this. Wait, where am I? This is a FAN MESSAGE BOARD, I thought. |
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Post by nick030567 on Aug 5, 2018 13:30:46 GMT -5
Of course he's hyped. He's extraordinary. Those guys are some of the biggest hype-rs and flip-floppers in the sports media. One day a certain player is the next LT or Brady; then he has a bad game and they're another Ryan Leaf in the eyes of the reactionary and melodramatic sports media.
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