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Post by Morehead State on Mar 14, 2020 15:54:05 GMT -5
Williams is essentially a decent run stopper who doesn't get to the QB. AKA...dime a dozen.
Brown may be a top 15 talent, but he just another run stopping DT....or which there are many....just like Williams. His position of importance is way down the list. Someone may take him early but he could drop because he doesn't get to the QB.
Back to our guy.......In a redraft..Williams probably doesn't go in the 1st round. Guys who don't get to the QB are very common.
Is that what your extensive film study telling you. Must have been watching the wrong guy he is around the QB harassing and moving him off his spot all the time. I they don't sign him someone like the Pats will and it will hurt this defense big time. He's one notch above "just a guy" in my view. He most certainly is not a disrupter in the offensive backfield. There is a reason the Jets were happy to dump him.
D linemen who actual GET to the QB are valuable. I just don't see it with this kid. And I certainly didn't see him around the ball a lot in the 8 games he played with us.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 14, 2020 16:21:08 GMT -5
Is that what your extensive film study telling you. Must have been watching the wrong guy he is around the QB harassing and moving him off his spot all the time. I they don't sign him someone like the Pats will and it will hurt this defense big time. He's one notch above "just a guy" in my view. He most certainly is not a disrupter in the offensive backfield. There is a reason the Jets were happy to dump him.
D linemen who actual GET to the QB are valuable. I just don't see it with this kid. And I certainly didn't see him around the ball a lot in the 8 games he played with us.
You do know that he was one of the top DTs at pressuring the QB right? Now that didn't result in many sacks but he also had LBs that couldn't cover and DBs that didn't know who to cover. I'm not saying he is great but he is a solid player for sure.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 14, 2020 16:30:40 GMT -5
Is that what your extensive film study telling you. Must have been watching the wrong guy he is around the QB harassing and moving him off his spot all the time. I they don't sign him someone like the Pats will and it will hurt this defense big time. He's one notch above "just a guy" in my view. He most certainly is not a disrupter in the offensive backfield. There is a reason the Jets were happy to dump him.
D linemen who actual GET to the QB are valuable. I just don't see it with this kid. And I certainly didn't see him around the ball a lot in the 8 games he played with us.
He had a ton of hits and pressures in the 8 games he was here. I know you don't think so but he is a really good player second tier and with what Donald got second tier is 12 to 15 mill Jones is gonna break the market again.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 15, 2020 9:14:34 GMT -5
He's one notch above "just a guy" in my view. He most certainly is not a disrupter in the offensive backfield. There is a reason the Jets were happy to dump him.
D linemen who actual GET to the QB are valuable. I just don't see it with this kid. And I certainly didn't see him around the ball a lot in the 8 games he played with us.
He had a ton of hits and pressures in the 8 games he was here. I know you don't think so but he is a really good player second tier and with what Donald got second tier is 12 to 15 mill Jones is gonna break the market again. That would be money poorly spent by us. If you're right and I'm sure you are, we need to stay away.
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Post by TEM on Mar 15, 2020 9:20:14 GMT -5
He had a ton of hits and pressures in the 8 games he was here. I know you don't think so but he is a really good player second tier and with what Donald got second tier is 12 to 15 mill Jones is gonna break the market again. That would be money poorly spent by us. If you're right and I'm sure you are, we need to stay away. Everyone is on to your game. You are going to disagree with anything the GM does good or bad. LOL
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 15, 2020 9:25:01 GMT -5
That would be money poorly spent by us. If you're right and I'm sure you are, we need to stay away. Just curious. Who do you think we should try to sign to help improve our pass rush?
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 15, 2020 9:28:01 GMT -5
That would be money poorly spent by us. If you're right and I'm sure you are, we need to stay away. Everyone is on to your game. You are going to disagree with anything the GM does good or bad. LOL Stick with the arguments my friend. If the Giants are going to spend 12 to $15MM on a D lineman, he better be able to get to the QB.
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Post by TEM on Mar 15, 2020 9:34:42 GMT -5
Everyone is on to your game. You are going to disagree with anything the GM does good or bad. LOL Stick with the arguments my friend. If the Giants are going to spend 12 to $15MM on a D lineman, he better be able to get to the QB. thegiantsboard.proboards.com/thread/6027/leonard-williams-iq-test?page=4Post 95 . It is a good explanation of the responsibilities if a 3-4 DE.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 15, 2020 9:41:04 GMT -5
That would be money poorly spent by us. If you're right and I'm sure you are, we need to stay away. Just curious. Who do you think we should try to sign to help improve our pass rush? Real dynamic pass rushers are rarely allowed to leave their teams. The pickings are probably going to be slim. I think the draft will be the best place to find them.
Guys like Leonard Williams are traded for mid round picks. Guys who don't get to the QB. Linval is a better player than Williams and he was released. Guys who get to the QB?....Much more hard to find.
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Post by Fletch842 on Mar 15, 2020 9:47:15 GMT -5
Everyone is on to your game. You are going to disagree with anything the GM does good or bad. LOL Stick with the arguments my friend. If the Giants are going to spend 12 to $15MM on a D lineman, he better be able to get to the QB. I think with the current salaries, 12 1 15 no longer gets you a pass rushing specialist. To me that is exactly where Williams should slot. He's a really solid 3 down lineman, great against the run, and creates pressure. If he had 7 - 8 more sacks each year he would certainly be one of the 20+ guys.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 15, 2020 9:50:07 GMT -5
Just curious. Who do you think we should try to sign to help improve our pass rush? Real dynamic pass rushers are rarely allowed to leave their teams. The pickings are probably going to be slim. I think the draft will be the best place to find them.
Guys like Leonard Williams are traded for mid round picks. Guys who don't get to the QB. Linval is a better player than Williams and he was released. Guys who get to the QB?....Much more hard to find.
Very true but it does not answer the question. You don't want to spend money on Williams, so which pass rusher should we spend money on to help our pass rush?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2020 9:50:28 GMT -5
Teams can use only one tag again. Giants have to Monday 11:59 am to use either the franchise or transition tag on Leonard Williams.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 15, 2020 9:52:03 GMT -5
Stick with the arguments my friend. If the Giants are going to spend 12 to $15MM on a D lineman, he better be able to get to the QB. I think with the current salaries, 12 1 15 no longer gets you a pass rushing specialist. To me that is exactly where Williams should slot. He's a really solid 3 down lineman, great against the run, and creates pressure. If he had 7 - 8 more sacks each year he would certainly be one of the 20+ guys. D linemen who DON'T get to the QB shouldn't get that much though.
I would expect that they will at least consider franchising Williams, but they will try to do it as a DT. He's said already that he will file a grievance if they did.
I think franchising him at either position is a mistake but saving face may be a motivation. There are so many other places to focus our resources.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 15, 2020 9:52:39 GMT -5
Stick with the arguments my friend. If the Giants are going to spend 12 to $15MM on a D lineman, he better be able to get to the QB. I think with the current salaries, 12 1 15 no longer gets you a pass rushing specialist. To me that is exactly where Williams should slot. He's a really solid 3 down lineman, great against the run, and creates pressure. If he had 7 - 8 more sacks each year he would certainly be one of the 20+ guys. Agreed. I also think he will have more sacks when our LBs and DBs can cover a little bit better. We were absolutely horrendous last year in coverage. He won't be a 20 sack guy but I think he can reach that 7 sack range which was the high end for him early in his career.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 15, 2020 9:53:18 GMT -5
Teams can use only one tag again. Giants have to Monday 11:59 am to use either the franchise or transition tag on Leonard Williams. Did they approve the CBA yet? One tag is only if the new CBA is approved.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 15, 2020 9:54:04 GMT -5
Real dynamic pass rushers are rarely allowed to leave their teams. The pickings are probably going to be slim. I think the draft will be the best place to find them.
Guys like Leonard Williams are traded for mid round picks. Guys who don't get to the QB. Linval is a better player than Williams and he was released. Guys who get to the QB?....Much more hard to find.
Very true but it does not answer the question. You don't want to spend money on Williams, so which pass rusher should we spend money on to help our pass rush? We have no idea who will be available. Ask me when all the franchise tags have been announced. But either way, I doubt we will overpay for a guy like Shaq Barrett (who would probably be tagged anyway). So we may or may not even have an opportunity to sign a good pass rusher. That doesn't mean we should overpay for a guy who can't get to the QB.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 15, 2020 9:54:43 GMT -5
Teams can use only one tag again. Giants have to Monday 11:59 am to use either the franchise or transition tag on Leonard Williams. Did they approve the CBA yet? One tag is only if the new CBA is approved. Yes they did. One tag only.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 15, 2020 9:55:50 GMT -5
We have no idea who will be available. Ask me when all the franchise tags have been announced. But either way, I doubt we will overpay for a guy like Shaq Barrett (who would probably be tagged anyway). So we may or may not even have an opportunity to sign a good pass rusher. That doesn't mean we should overpay for a guy who can't get to the QB.
Well right now Ngague and Barrett are not available. So judging based on who the free agents are right now who would you target to improve our pass rush?
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 15, 2020 10:18:17 GMT -5
We have no idea who will be available. Ask me when all the franchise tags have been announced. But either way, I doubt we will overpay for a guy like Shaq Barrett (who would probably be tagged anyway). So we may or may not even have an opportunity to sign a good pass rusher. That doesn't mean we should overpay for a guy who can't get to the QB.
Well right now Ngague and Barrett are not available. So judging based on who the free agents are right now who would you target to improve our pass rush? As I said. Good pass rushers are hard to find. Probably have to solidify our D backfield and enhance our talent in the draft.
Are you suggesting that since few pass rushers may be available in free agency we should overpay for a guy who isn't a good pass rusher?
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 15, 2020 10:31:53 GMT -5
That would be money poorly spent by us. If you're right and I'm sure you are, we need to stay away. Everyone is on to your game. You are going to disagree with anything the GM does good or bad. LOL This does seem to be where this is going with MS.I just don't know if he is doing it to bust em off on people. or does the dismissal of JR still sting him.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 15, 2020 10:36:17 GMT -5
Everyone is on to your game. You are going to disagree with anything the GM does good or bad. LOL This does seem to be where this is going with MS.I just don't know if he is doing it to bust em off on people. or does the dismissal of JR still sting him. So it''s your view that we should pay Leonard Williams $12 to $15MM per year? Instead of attacking other posters....maybe you all can actually stick to the topic at hand.
My view is that those resources are better used for other needs than another D lineman who can't get to the QB. Not sure what that has to do with Jerry Reese......but go for it if it makes you feel better.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2020 10:45:07 GMT -5
The new "projected" price to tag a DT is 16.1 million. Not confirmed.
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Post by DandyDon on Mar 15, 2020 10:53:00 GMT -5
The market determines what players are worth. This overpaying idea is silly.
Transition tag him and find out what he is worth.
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Post by Fletch842 on Mar 15, 2020 11:08:00 GMT -5
I think with the new CBA being approved they only have the standard franchise tag this off-season. No transition.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 15, 2020 11:17:01 GMT -5
This does seem to be where this is going with MS.I just don't know if he is doing it to bust em off on people. or does the dismissal of JR still sting him. So it''s your view that we should pay Leonard Williams $12 to $15MM per year? Instead of attacking other posters....maybe you all can actually stick to the topic at hand.
My view is that those resources are better used for other needs than another D lineman who can't get to the QB. Not sure what that has to do with Jerry Reese......but go for it if it makes you feel better.
The problem here is you dismiss Williams as if he didn't help the defense he did and opened things up for other players as I said he is back there moving the QB hitting the QB doesn't matter they don't sign him they will have to either sign or draft someone else he will get his money from smart team like the Pats who will know what to do with him.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 15, 2020 11:18:16 GMT -5
I think with the new CBA being approved they only have the standard franchise tag this off-season. No transition. It's not like the old rules where they can use one or the other not both.
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Post by Fletch842 on Mar 15, 2020 11:22:25 GMT -5
I think with the new CBA being approved they only have the standard franchise tag this off-season. No transition. It's not like the old rules where they can use one or the other not both. That's my understanding, been listening to them on tv the last hour or two. I could be wrong, certainly won't be the first time...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2020 11:34:14 GMT -5
He'll want more than that, not worth it. On another subject, I may sound stupid but cut of Solder saves $6.5 million on cap but leaves 13 million in dead cap. He's been awful, Jones needs a big time LT.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 15, 2020 11:49:59 GMT -5
It's not like the old rules where they can use one or the other not both. That's my understanding, been listening to them on tv the last hour or two. I could be wrong, certainly won't be the first time... Think they can use a tag only one but there choice either franchise or transition.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 15, 2020 11:50:01 GMT -5
As I said. Good pass rushers are hard to find. Probably have to solidify our D backfield and enhance our talent in the draft.
Are you suggesting that since few pass rushers may be available in free agency we should overpay for a guy who isn't a good pass rusher?
First let's agree that you always "overpay" for free agents. Second you need to acknowledge that pass rush is not determined by sacks and that Williams had more QB pressures than any other DT (according to PFF, #6 by other people) . He actually is good at rushing the passer, just didn't get the sacks. This is of course as a DT, he is not a DE/OLB. Of the top 55 pass rushers in the league only 6 of them are DTs...Leonard Williams is one of them. I'm not saying we should pay him as a DE but certainly as one of the top pass rushing DTs that can also stop the run.
Now I agree with you that not many pass rushers are out there in free agency or the draft. It's a very down year for that. Bringing him and Golden back is going to be the best we can do unfortunately. If your plan is to just solidify our backfield that's all good but who is going to rush the passer?
Complaining about a player is 1 thing but at least have an alternative that you would prefer...unless of course you just want to complain no matter what the GM does.
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