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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2020 8:15:09 GMT -5
Lawrence played the 5, 3 and 1...Tomlinson played the 3 and 1, BJ played the 5 and 3. That's not to say that any one of them couldnt play any other position, but those were outliers rather the their primary positions (i.e. once in a great while you would see tomlinson or Williams @ the 5, etc..) This is a futile exercise they can sign Williams and he will be stellar against the run and moving the QB. It won't matter what he does because this isn't about what is right and wrong it is about the GM, The whining will never end even if they turn it around this year and Williams plays great for them. They act like the organization never took risks before thats all they did with for years with the Hosely's and Austins of the world. Nice make believe response to be followed up with whining post about people whining about the GM.. It works both ways so if you don't like what other fans opinion are then why are you "blathering over and over " about it. Kind of reminds me of the Xman and Carter discussions with you and the Irishman which I see they are now on a 3 year plan since the 1st two weren't good enough. lol
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 11, 2020 9:16:54 GMT -5
But he was a DE with us this year. OK I give up how does he differ from a 4-3 DT? To me they are one and the same. It depends on the percentage of snaps at tackle or end. As Morehead said he played DE in the 3-4 which as you stated is like a DT, because your OLBs are the edge players in the the odd man front, Williams snaps there will count as DE snaps. He did play the Nose and DT in the even front and nose in the odd front last but not least he played traditional DE also in the even front. all this said they will have to break it down and see where he spent the most time. In the end what I just gave you is where his value is he is good at every position in either front so a coach looking for versatility might like that. What I saw with Grahm in the film review in his defense he might have one guy with his hand in the dirt and the rest standing LB types so who knows what his value is to this DC I would think with his versatility it would be pretty high.
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Post by FundamentallySoundJones on Feb 11, 2020 9:30:46 GMT -5
I don't care so much about that. I think if your looking at it from a football point of view Williams makes the guys around him better and made the defense better. They haven't had a unit you could say does something good in years he changed that for the DL very good against the run and moving the QB constantly. I say keep him and pay a lower value target like fowler and line him up with Xman and Carter. Half this board still wines about getting rid of Harrison. It's natural that they'd hate Williams and demand he be paid less than the guy he is better and younger than. not 15mill per. I can see him getting a huge deal then dissappearing in games. What would the pats do?
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Post by Morehead State on Feb 11, 2020 9:45:52 GMT -5
Yes of course...there is always "they" out there. It's never a discussion about football. It's not about wanting to have the best team. If "they" disagree with you, "they" MUST have ulterior motives.
It just can't be an honest disagreement. It's really about Jayron Hosely and Marvin Austin.
Nah I just think it's funny how it's Dave this Dave that lol. It took 2 years for DAVE to clean up the mess he was hired to cleanup thats cutting or not resigning a losing aging over paid roster and getting the cap back . now the hard part starts finishing up a complete rebuild offense defense and special teams which is done. I have no problems with people who disagree with my opinion and respect theirs but when it's the same blather over and over and more times then not it gets shot down it's comical. So now we have a losing roster but they are paid appropriately?
Is that the goal.
But no worries my friend, with the new regime, headed by Joe Judge, we will win in 2020 despite Dave. (And I say "Dave" because I'm too impatient to type his whole name every time).
Joe is running this show now.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 11, 2020 10:12:00 GMT -5
Nah I just think it's funny how it's Dave this Dave that lol. It took 2 years for DAVE to clean up the mess he was hired to cleanup thats cutting or not resigning a losing aging over paid roster and getting the cap back . now the hard part starts finishing up a complete rebuild offense defense and special teams which is done. I have no problems with people who disagree with my opinion and respect theirs but when it's the same blather over and over and more times then not it gets shot down it's comical. So now we have a losing roster but they are paid appropriately?
Is that the goal.
But no worries my friend, with the new regime, headed by Joe Judge, we will win in 2020 despite Dave. (And I say "Dave" because I'm too impatient to type his whole name every time).
Joe is running this show now.
LOL 2 years if you can't get that then were good. I respect how you feel but he started with nothing. Unless you think we should have resigned Richberg Hurt again and not really all that good and Pugh who was never any good and has been healthy once or twice. I don't care who is running the show as long as we win but I think you might be mistaken think they are gonna do what Dave always did get the coaches the players they want and work closely with them to achieve that.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 11, 2020 10:13:35 GMT -5
Half this board still wines about getting rid of Harrison. It's natural that they'd hate Williams and demand he be paid less than the guy he is better and younger than. not 15mill per. I can see him getting a huge deal then dissappearing in games. What would the pats do? They will be the ones to sign him on the cheap and get a ton of production out him.
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Post by Morehead State on Feb 11, 2020 10:24:38 GMT -5
So now we have a losing roster but they are paid appropriately?
Is that the goal.
But no worries my friend, with the new regime, headed by Joe Judge, we will win in 2020 despite Dave. (And I say "Dave" because I'm too impatient to type his whole name every time).
Joe is running this show now.
LOL 2 years if you can't get that then were good. I respect how you feel but he started with nothing. Unless you think we should have resigned Richberg Hurt again and not really all that good and Pugh who was never any good and has been healthy once or twice. I don't care who is running the show as long as we win but I think you might be mistaken think they are gonna do what Dave always did get the coaches the players they want and work closely with them to achieve that. This is a new league. A league where teams can turn around in a year or two. I give Dave the credit for drafting Daniel Jones because I think he's our QB of the future. I blame him for drafting a RB with the 2nd pick in the draft. I consider him a good evaluator of talent but a poor builder of a football team. And this Leonard Williams trade? Oh my God what a stupid move.
But with free agency and the draft we can get this ship right for 2020. I think Dave had a huge hand in hiring Pat Shurmur....a yes man.
But now there is an independent HC who brings a completely different outlook. I expect a winner. I expect the playoffs and even a division title in 2020. Not because of Dave, but because FINALLY John Mara moved this team in a completely different direction with this head coach.
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Post by Bigjeep on Feb 11, 2020 10:33:02 GMT -5
Imagine if he resigns with the Jets for less because he liked it there! Would our GM look like a fool! The Jets GM might be arrested for robbery!
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Post by Morehead State on Feb 11, 2020 10:39:50 GMT -5
Imagine if he resigns with the Jets for less because he liked it there! Would our GM look like a fool! The Jets GM might be arrested for robbery! I said when we made the deal that the only way it makes sense is if we had the makings of an extension already in place. To give up those picks for a guy to play 8 weeks on a team already eliminated from the playoffs made no sense...... unless we knew we could keep him long term.
Just a dumb move as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 11, 2020 12:14:08 GMT -5
LOL 2 years if you can't get that then were good. I respect how you feel but he started with nothing. Unless you think we should have resigned Richberg Hurt again and not really all that good and Pugh who was never any good and has been healthy once or twice. I don't care who is running the show as long as we win but I think you might be mistaken think they are gonna do what Dave always did get the coaches the players they want and work closely with them to achieve that. This is a new league. A league where teams can turn around in a year or two. I give Dave the credit for drafting Daniel Jones because I think he's our QB of the future. I blame him for drafting a RB with the 2nd pick in the draft. I consider him a good evaluator of talent but a poor builder of a football team. And this Leonard Williams trade? Oh my God what a stupid move.
But with free agency and the draft we can get this ship right for 2020. I think Dave had a huge hand in hiring Pat Shurmur....a yes man.
But now there is an independent HC who brings a completely different outlook. I expect a winner. I expect the playoffs and even a division title in 2020. Not because of Dave, but because FINALLY John Mara moved this team in a completely different direction with this head coach.
I think they have stepped it up finally. But I still think that depending on what needs be done rebuilds are 3 to 5 years if you wanna start from scratch with young talent on rookie deals and reset your cap. If a team has some young talent in place like the Raiders did and san fran had some on the defensive side of the ball and some OL yes in three years maybe even 2 with cap and draft you can get it done. Think the Giants have stepped up their Analytics program and have changed the scouting department and grading system lets see how thei goes thats all I'm saying. Every team and GM have mistakes it's a matter of having less then more. So far he has not been wrong on letting people walk and trading them away also. I love the Judge hiring I like special teams coaches and thought our own McGaughy should have been considered.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 11, 2020 12:16:32 GMT -5
Imagine if he resigns with the Jets for less because he liked it there! Would our GM look like a fool! The Jets GM might be arrested for robbery! Imagine if he signs with us day after free agency starts giving the Jets only and 5th not a 4th 2 sides to every deal.
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Post by Sarcasman on Feb 11, 2020 12:20:03 GMT -5
LOL 2 years if you can't get that then were good. I respect how you feel but he started with nothing. Unless you think we should have resigned Richberg Hurt again and not really all that good and Pugh who was never any good and has been healthy once or twice. I don't care who is running the show as long as we win but I think you might be mistaken think they are gonna do what Dave always did get the coaches the players they want and work closely with them to achieve that. This is a new league. A league where teams can turn around in a year or two. I give Dave the credit for drafting Daniel Jones because I think he's our QB of the future. I blame him for drafting a RB with the 2nd pick in the draft. I consider him a good evaluator of talent but a poor builder of a football team. And this Leonard Williams trade? Oh my God what a stupid move.
But with free agency and the draft we can get this ship right for 2020. I think Dave had a huge hand in hiring Pat Shurmur....a yes man.
But now there is an independent HC who brings a completely different outlook. I expect a winner. I expect the playoffs and even a division title in 2020. Not because of Dave, but because FINALLY John Mara moved this team in a completely different direction with this head coach.
Are there really any teams that were as bad as the Giants were that turned around in one or two years? I don;t doubt that it's possible but I can't think of any and then ones I do think of I quickly realize they either 1) weren't that far off to begin with or 2) were actually rebuilding before the 1/2 year clock started
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2020 12:31:20 GMT -5
This is a new league. A league where teams can turn around in a year or two. I give Dave the credit for drafting Daniel Jones because I think he's our QB of the future. I blame him for drafting a RB with the 2nd pick in the draft. I consider him a good evaluator of talent but a poor builder of a football team. And this Leonard Williams trade? Oh my God what a stupid move.
But with free agency and the draft we can get this ship right for 2020. I think Dave had a huge hand in hiring Pat Shurmur....a yes man.
But now there is an independent HC who brings a completely different outlook. I expect a winner. I expect the playoffs and even a division title in 2020. Not because of Dave, but because FINALLY John Mara moved this team in a completely different direction with this head coach.
Are there really any teams that were as bad as the Giants were that turned around in one or two years? I don;t doubt that it's possible but I can't think of any and then ones I do think of I quickly realize they either 1) weren't that far off to begin with or 2) were actually rebuilding before the 1/2 year clock started Would the Cowboys, Colts and Jags count? Dak and the Ewok changed them from 4 wins to 12. Drafting Luck really changed that team and then they did it again by trading that pick with the Jets and made the playoffs .. The Jags played in the championship game after a few real bad seasons of course they suck again because they whiffed on the QB.. I didn't claim the 49ers but they did go from 4 wins to SB.
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Post by Morehead State on Feb 11, 2020 12:44:23 GMT -5
This is a new league. A league where teams can turn around in a year or two. I give Dave the credit for drafting Daniel Jones because I think he's our QB of the future. I blame him for drafting a RB with the 2nd pick in the draft. I consider him a good evaluator of talent but a poor builder of a football team. And this Leonard Williams trade? Oh my God what a stupid move.
But with free agency and the draft we can get this ship right for 2020. I think Dave had a huge hand in hiring Pat Shurmur....a yes man.
But now there is an independent HC who brings a completely different outlook. I expect a winner. I expect the playoffs and even a division title in 2020. Not because of Dave, but because FINALLY John Mara moved this team in a completely different direction with this head coach.
Are there really any teams that were as bad as the Giants were that turned around in one or two years? I don;t doubt that it's possible but I can't think of any and then ones I do think of I quickly realize they either 1) weren't that far off to begin with or 2) were actually rebuilding before the 1/2 year clock started The 2013 Chiefs went from 2-14 to 11-5 and a playoff birth in one season
The 2018 Texans went from 4-12 to 11-5 in one season and a playoff birth The 2005 Giants went from 6-10 to 11-5 in one season and a division championship.
These just off the top of my head and these are ONE season turn arounds.
Obviously the Niners went from 4-12 to the SB in one year.
Now we are in year 3 of our rebuild coming up.
I'm sure I can give you dozens of examples of 2 year turn arounds. Probably scores of three year turn arounds.
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Post by McCherry on Feb 11, 2020 12:47:59 GMT -5
This is a new league. A league where teams can turn around in a year or two. I give Dave the credit for drafting Daniel Jones because I think he's our QB of the future. I blame him for drafting a RB with the 2nd pick in the draft. I consider him a good evaluator of talent but a poor builder of a football team. And this Leonard Williams trade? Oh my God what a stupid move.
But with free agency and the draft we can get this ship right for 2020. I think Dave had a huge hand in hiring Pat Shurmur....a yes man.
But now there is an independent HC who brings a completely different outlook. I expect a winner. I expect the playoffs and even a division title in 2020. Not because of Dave, but because FINALLY John Mara moved this team in a completely different direction with this head coach.
Are there really any teams that were as bad as the Giants were that turned around in one or two years? I don;t doubt that it's possible but I can't think of any and then ones I do think of I quickly realize they either 1) weren't that far off to begin with or 2) were actually rebuilding before the 1/2 year clock started Think Bay Area.
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Post by Morehead State on Feb 11, 2020 12:51:41 GMT -5
Are there really any teams that were as bad as the Giants were that turned around in one or two years? I don;t doubt that it's possible but I can't think of any and then ones I do think of I quickly realize they either 1) weren't that far off to begin with or 2) were actually rebuilding before the 1/2 year clock started Think Bay Area. When I think of the Bay area all I think of are guys peeing on the sidewalks.
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Post by McCherry on Feb 11, 2020 12:54:21 GMT -5
When I think of the Bay area all I think of are guys peeing on the sidewalks. Like all of LA.
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Post by TCHOF on Feb 11, 2020 12:57:37 GMT -5
When I think of the Bay area all I think of are guys peeing on the sidewalks. ... and you're lucky if they're only peeing ....
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Post by Bigjeep on Feb 11, 2020 14:04:15 GMT -5
Imagine if he resigns with the Jets for less because he liked it there! Would our GM look like a fool! The Jets GM might be arrested for robbery! I said when we made the deal that the only way it makes sense is if we had the makings of an extension already in place. To give up those picks for a guy to play 8 weeks on a team already eliminated from the playoffs made no sense...... unless we knew we could keep him long term.
Just a dumb move as far as I'm concerned.
Still hard to believe he made that deal and Mara signed off on it!
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Post by Blue Hulk on Feb 11, 2020 16:21:17 GMT -5
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Post by Sarcasman on Feb 11, 2020 16:30:06 GMT -5
Are there really any teams that were as bad as the Giants were that turned around in one or two years? I don;t doubt that it's possible but I can't think of any and then ones I do think of I quickly realize they either 1) weren't that far off to begin with or 2) were actually rebuilding before the 1/2 year clock started Would the Cowboys, Colts and Jags count? Dak and the Ewok changed them from 4 wins to 12. Drafting Luck really changed that team and then they did it again by trading that pick with the Jets and made the playoffs .. The Jags played in the championship game after a few real bad seasons of course they suck again because they whiffed on the QB.. I didn't claim the 49ers but they did go from 4 wins to SB. Like all things football it's subjective so yeah..everybody counts all the time. Because it comes down to when you want to start counting. The media - not the facts - drives the narrative so if the Browns make the playoffs next year I'd fully expect folks to say it's because they signed Beckham. Or Mayfield. Doesn't matter who as longs it was a recent signing, that's close enough for the headline writers. Believe it or not, there actually are posters here that claim the 49ers turned around in two years and that it was all caused by signing the QB, lol.
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Post by Sarcasman on Feb 11, 2020 16:36:25 GMT -5
Are there really any teams that were as bad as the Giants were that turned around in one or two years? I don;t doubt that it's possible but I can't think of any and then ones I do think of I quickly realize they either 1) weren't that far off to begin with or 2) were actually rebuilding before the 1/2 year clock started The 2013 Chiefs went from 2-14 to 11-5 and a playoff birth in one season
The 2018 Texans went from 4-12 to 11-5 in one season and a playoff birth The 2005 Giants went from 6-10 to 11-5 in one season and a division championship.
These just off the top of my head and these are ONE season turn arounds.
Obviously the Niners went from 4-12 to the SB in one year.
Now we are in year 3 of our rebuild coming up.
I'm sure I can give you dozens of examples of 2 year turn arounds. Probably scores of three year turn arounds.
Since none of those teams were perennial bottom dwellers leading up to their miraculous turnarounds, I'l take that as a no. Same for SF obviously. No argument on three years, that ought to be long enough to get your team moving iin the right direction but as I said earlier, it depends on when you arbitrarily decide to start counting. That is a completely subjective metric. You can't even get people here to agree about when there Giants rebuild started.
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Post by Sarcasman on Feb 11, 2020 16:37:09 GMT -5
Are there really any teams that were as bad as the Giants were that turned around in one or two years? I don;t doubt that it's possible but I can't think of any and then ones I do think of I quickly realize they either 1) weren't that far off to begin with or 2) were actually rebuilding before the 1/2 year clock started Think Bay Area. Category 2.
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Post by Morehead State on Feb 11, 2020 16:50:22 GMT -5
The 2013 Chiefs went from 2-14 to 11-5 and a playoff birth in one season
The 2018 Texans went from 4-12 to 11-5 in one season and a playoff birth The 2005 Giants went from 6-10 to 11-5 in one season and a division championship.
These just off the top of my head and these are ONE season turn arounds.
Obviously the Niners went from 4-12 to the SB in one year.
Now we are in year 3 of our rebuild coming up.
I'm sure I can give you dozens of examples of 2 year turn arounds. Probably scores of three year turn arounds.
Since none of those teams were perennial bottom dwellers leading up to their miraculous turnarounds, I'l take that as a no. Same for SF obviously. No argument on three years, that ought to be long enough to get your team moving iin the right direction but as I said earlier, it depends on when you arbitrarily decide to start counting. That is a completely subjective metric. You can't even get people here to agree about when there Giants rebuild started. I would not characterize our team as a perennial bottom dweller. We DID make the playoffs in 2016.
And either way, it seems you are now moving the goal posts. Now the criteria of having to be a "perennial bottom dweller", however that is defined, is now added. And that way you can never lose, because you can claim...."look how long it took them to rebuild....they were bottom dwellers for so long".
Pretty cagey actually.
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Post by bringsimmsback on Feb 11, 2020 16:50:34 GMT -5
Well, the PFF expert was quoted as "hesitant" which is a little less concrete than the title suggests but I get the point. I keep saying transition tag him- let's all parties find out his true market value.
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Post by DandyDon on Feb 11, 2020 17:15:43 GMT -5
Well, the PFF expert was quoted as "hesitant" which is a little less concrete than the title suggests but I get the point. I keep saying transition tag him- let's all parties find out his true market value. I agree.
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Post by infinite420 on Feb 11, 2020 17:24:49 GMT -5
Well, the PFF expert was quoted as "hesitant" which is a little less concrete than the title suggests but I get the point. I keep saying transition tag him- let's all parties find out his true market value. Agreed, it pays him in the 12-13 range for one year, unless we get outbid in FA. He would be smart to forgo a million or two, to stay in NY for the supplemental sponsorship income he wont get anywhere else. I think they should pony up. Hes underrated, hes our best DT, and if we let him walk, what? We likely wont replace his production in FA. We have a ton of cap to spend. I have to imagine DG had him targeted in FA this offseason, even before the trade. Pay him, 5/65m likely gets the deal done.
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Post by McCherry on Feb 11, 2020 17:39:31 GMT -5
Well, the PFF expert was quoted as "hesitant" which is a little less concrete than the title suggests but I get the point. I keep saying transition tag him- let's all parties find out his true market value. Agreed, it pays him in the 12-13 range for one year, unless we get outbid in FA. He would be smart to forgo a million or two, to stay in NY for the supplemental sponsorship income he wont get anywhere else. I think they should pony up. Hes underrated, hes our best DT, and if we let him walk, what? We likely wont replace his production in FA. We have a ton of cap to spend. I have to imagine DG had him targeted in FA this offseason, even before the trade. Pay him, 5/65m likely gets the deal done. The annual breakdown is not as relevant as the structure. Contracts aren't paid out in equal parts, you want something with a high bonus/low cap hit the first few years, then backloaded into higher numbers that the player will likely never see. Everything with this team is about the next 3 years.
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Post by fifthavephil on Feb 11, 2020 18:46:13 GMT -5
As , I have posted prior Coach Judge , has seen Williams twice a year since , Williams enter the NFL. should, the Giants sign him at that rate . Judge, probably approved.
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Post by DandyDon on Feb 11, 2020 18:49:12 GMT -5
When I think of the Bay area all I think of are guys peeing on the sidewalks. Yeah, that never happens in NY...
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