Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2020 16:00:10 GMT -5
I thought he may get $15 mil the day we traded for him and felt like he would be worth it. Based on what I've read of what he does against the run and with getting pressure on the QB from up the middle, I think he makes the entire defense better without looking flashy himself. He is a top 5 player against the run and a top 10 player when it comes to impacting the QB. For those who insist on getting a bargain and confident he won't get $15mil on the open market, transition tag him and let him walk if he gets past $12 million. For my part, he will be a bargain at 15 million in a few years, so I say sign him. Since he is a young, high character guy from all accounts, front load a 5-year deal to make CAP management easier down the road. Are you Leonard Williams??
|
|
|
Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 10, 2020 16:13:33 GMT -5
Then where were Tomlinson and Lawrence? Lawrence played the 5, 3 and 1...Tomlinson played the 3 and 1, BJ played the 5 and 3. That's not to say that any one of them couldnt play any other position, but those were outliers rather the their primary positions (i.e. once in a great while you would see tomlinson or Williams @ the 5, etc..) This is a futile exercise they can sign Williams and he will be stellar against the run and moving the QB. It won't matter what he does because this isn't about what is right and wrong it is about the GM, The whining will never end even if they turn it around this year and Williams plays great for them. They act like the organization never took risks before thats all they did with for years with the Hosely's and Austins of the world.
|
|
|
Post by lt56 on Feb 10, 2020 16:13:52 GMT -5
It would suck wasting a 3rd Round Pick away on a guy you knew was going to ask for A LOT of Money and especially if you had no intentions on paying him big money. NO he is not taking a discount nor should he take a discount and fans as well as GM's need to stop expecting and asking players to take a damn discount considering how much money this damn league makes. These players are not going to do it and I don't blame them. Sound like even Tom Brady is saying enough is enough with the discounts and being paid the 13th Highest Paid QB in the NFL and is looking to cash out and get the most money he can get By the way, $15 Million is the Discount Rate actually if you go look at the going rate for TOP Interior Defensive Lineman... overthecap.com/position/interior-defensive-line/Williams is asking for Jurrell Casey money which would put him at 7th or 8th Highest Paid Interior Defensive Lineman I think that is more than FAIR actually (not saying the Giants should give it to him). I like Dexter Lawrence, Tomlinson and I still like BJ Hill Potential despite his 2nd Year Slump. So if they don't pay him the Giants Defensive Line should still be good but they will need to figure out a way to recoup that 3rd Round Pick maybe trading out of that #4 Pick and getting more picks Giants are going to have to pay some people, our fans have Panic Attacks when it comes to playing players lol but they have the Cap Space now so lets calm down. Eli, Beckham, JPP and whoever else are official off the books now so we're looking at a Estimated: $61,887,217 overthecap.com/salary-cap-space/ and this is before the Cap Increase that happens every year
|
|
|
Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 10, 2020 16:20:42 GMT -5
I don't care so much about that. I think if your looking at it from a football point of view Williams makes the guys around him better and made the defense better. They haven't had a unit you could say does something good in years he changed that for the DL very good against the run and moving the QB constantly. I say keep him and pay a lower value target like fowler and line him up with Xman and Carter. Half this board still wines about getting rid of Harrison. It's natural that they'd hate Williams and demand he be paid less than the guy he is better and younger than. It's funny DG looks like a genius Harrison didn't have a good year and got paid.
|
|
|
Post by Sarcasman on Feb 10, 2020 16:29:29 GMT -5
Half this board still wines about getting rid of Harrison. It's natural that they'd hate Williams and demand he be paid less than the guy he is better and younger than. It's funny DG looks like a genius Harrison didn't have a good year and got paid. It depends on the lens one uses. Some would have you believe that he was a cornerstone a solid defense that became crappy after he and other notables like Vernon, Apple etc were let go. Obviously you can buy replacements for that lens in any boardwalk funhouse.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2020 16:39:14 GMT -5
I thought he may get $15 mil the day we traded for him and felt like he would be worth it. Based on what I've read of what he does against the run and with getting pressure on the QB from up the middle, I think he makes the entire defense better without looking flashy himself. He is a top 5 player against the run and a top 10 player when it comes to impacting the QB. For those who insist on getting a bargain and confident he won't get $15mil on the open market, transition tag him and let him walk if he gets past $12 million. For my part, he will be a bargain at 15 million in a few years, so I say sign him. Since he is a young, high character guy from all accounts, front load a 5-year deal to make CAP management easier down the road. Are you Leonard Williams?? His agent..
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2020 16:42:52 GMT -5
I don't care so much about that. I think if your looking at it from a football point of view Williams makes the guys around him better and made the defense better. They haven't had a unit you could say does something good in years he changed that for the DL very good against the run and moving the QB constantly. I say keep him and pay a lower value target like fowler and line him up with Xman and Carter. Half this board still wines about getting rid of Harrison. It's natural that they'd hate Williams and demand he be paid less than the guy he is better and younger than. That's the catch that these fans aren't understanding.. I tried to explain and show these fans that he's going to be making at least 13 million a year minimum and they didn't believe me while claiming he's going to get around 10 million at the most..
|
|
|
Post by Morehead State on Feb 10, 2020 16:45:05 GMT -5
Lawrence played the 5, 3 and 1...Tomlinson played the 3 and 1, BJ played the 5 and 3. That's not to say that any one of them couldnt play any other position, but those were outliers rather the their primary positions (i.e. once in a great while you would see tomlinson or Williams @ the 5, etc..) This is a futile exercise they can sign Williams and he will be stellar against the run and moving the QB. It won't matter what he does because this isn't about what is right and wrong it is about the GM, The whining will never end even if they turn it around this year and Williams plays great for them. They act like the organization never took risks before thats all they did with for years with the Hosely's and Austins of the world. Yes of course...there is always "they" out there. It's never a discussion about football. It's not about wanting to have the best team. If "they" disagree with you, "they" MUST have ulterior motives.
It just can't be an honest disagreement. It's really about Jayron Hosely and Marvin Austin.
|
|
|
Post by ocgiant on Feb 10, 2020 16:50:33 GMT -5
Loser either way but I would not overpay him Take the hit, keep the money and move on I'd be OK paying him up to about $9-$10M a year. Above that you gotta let him walk. Let's nor lose our heads here, Harrison is getting what? $11M $12M and Williams is better, full stop. That said, he ain't $15m worth. When he first came over to the Giants I was under the impression that Williams liked it on the Giants team and would like to stay with the Giants long term, Just don't know if he likes the Giants $5mil worth to stay? It seesaws back and forth... since then if you don't sign him there is now another position to fill. Ideally, he tests open market and does not get any $15mil offers and signs with the Giants more reasonably priced as you said for $9 - $10mil I think the Giants have learned from overpaying FAs
|
|
|
Post by DandyDon on Feb 10, 2020 17:28:05 GMT -5
I don't care so much about that. I think if your looking at it from a football point of view Williams makes the guys around him better and made the defense better. They haven't had a unit you could say does something good in years he changed that for the DL very good against the run and moving the QB constantly. I say keep him and pay a lower value target like fowler and line him up with Xman and Carter. Half this board still wines about getting rid of Harrison. It's natural that they'd hate Williams and demand he be paid less than the guy he is better and younger than. And half the board never wants to pay anyone, ever. It's almost like they're paying them out of their own pockets.
|
|
|
Post by IrishMike on Feb 10, 2020 18:46:09 GMT -5
I agree. I think our pass rush can keep getting better with them gaining experience. I think their ceiling is probably about where Golden is, which is fine. We don't have that Strahan potential for 20 sacks / 100+ sack career type guy and I don't think we get him this year. Think Xman has a chance depending on the strength he adds, he has the moves and tools but I think he is a full 3 year project. He will produce don't get me wrong but he will still grow. Much like Carter did last year his first year starting he was a different player by the end of the year and hopefully he keeps progressing through this his 3rd season. I agree. I'm not giving up on X or Carter. I think they can contribute. We don't need 15-20 sacks from them (that would be great though). If we can get to the 5-10 range from each of them it would go a long way. Add in Golden as well.
|
|
|
Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 10, 2020 19:39:54 GMT -5
Think Xman has a chance depending on the strength he adds, he has the moves and tools but I think he is a full 3 year project. He will produce don't get me wrong but he will still grow. Much like Carter did last year his first year starting he was a different player by the end of the year and hopefully he keeps progressing through this his 3rd season. I agree. I'm not giving up on X or Carter. I think they can contribute. We don't need 15-20 sacks from them (that would be great though). If we can get to the 5-10 range from each of them it would go a long way. Add in Golden as well. they had 5.5 and 5 last year to goldens 10.
|
|
|
Post by IrishMike on Feb 10, 2020 19:44:00 GMT -5
A third round pick is a pick in the 3rd round. The way it written was ambiguous. It's not ambiguous when you have only one 3rd round pick.
You seriously going to die on this hill?
When it is worded "a 2020 third round pick" then it is ambiguous. This has happened in the past. None of us will know for sure until comp picks are awarded.
|
|
|
Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 10, 2020 19:47:17 GMT -5
This is a futile exercise they can sign Williams and he will be stellar against the run and moving the QB. It won't matter what he does because this isn't about what is right and wrong it is about the GM, The whining will never end even if they turn it around this year and Williams plays great for them. They act like the organization never took risks before thats all they did with for years with the Hosely's and Austins of the world. Yes of course...there is always "they" out there. It's never a discussion about football. It's not about wanting to have the best team. If "they" disagree with you, "they" MUST have ulterior motives.
It just can't be an honest disagreement. It's really about Jayron Hosely and Marvin Austin.
Nah I just think it's funny how it's Dave this Dave that lol. It took 2 years for DAVE to clean up the mess he was hired to cleanup thats cutting or not resigning a losing aging over paid roster and getting the cap back . now the hard part starts finishing up a complete rebuild offense defense and special teams which is done. I have no problems with people who disagree with my opinion and respect theirs but when it's the same blather over and over and more times then not it gets shot down it's comical.
|
|
|
Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 10, 2020 19:54:40 GMT -5
It's funny DG looks like a genius Harrison didn't have a good year and got paid. It depends on the lens one uses. Some would have you believe that he was a cornerstone a solid defense that became crappy after he and other notables like Vernon, Apple etc were let go. Obviously you can buy replacements for that lens in any boardwalk funhouse. Guess that lens missed the 2017 season when they were one of the worst defenses in the NFL if not worst. Were fighting one another harder then the opponent. Not one Giant let go has shined to the point of saying boy he could help not Richberg or Pugh or any of the three you mentioned or Collins. I think fun house is the perfect analogy. Williams is just the next attraction.
|
|
|
Post by TCHOF on Feb 10, 2020 20:16:39 GMT -5
It's not ambiguous when you have only one 3rd round pick.
You seriously going to die on this hill?
When it is worded "a 2020 third round pick" then it is ambiguous. This has happened in the past. None of us will know for sure until comp picks are awarded. When has this happened in the past? Dan Duggan of the Athletic actually responded to this issue and said that it was 100% the Giants 3rd rounder (pick no. 68) that was traded. Why wouldn’t the Giants have clarified this after they have been getting flamed everywhere for giving up pick #68?
|
|
|
Post by Delicreep on Feb 10, 2020 20:24:56 GMT -5
Half this board still wines about getting rid of Harrison. It's natural that they'd hate Williams and demand he be paid less than the guy he is better and younger than. And half the board never wants to pay anyone, ever. It's almost like they're paying them out of their own pockets. I know if I were GM everyone I sign would be happy to take the league minimum, and every dollar more than that enrages me and shows how incompetent DG is.
|
|
|
Post by TCHOF on Feb 10, 2020 20:26:48 GMT -5
And half the board never wants to pay anyone, ever. It's almost like they're paying them out of their own pockets. I know if I were GM everyone I sign would be happy to take the league minimum, and every dollar more than that enrages me and shows how incompetent DG is. They should all sign one-year “show me” deals.
|
|
|
Post by Delicreep on Feb 10, 2020 20:30:07 GMT -5
I know if I were GM everyone I sign would be happy to take the league minimum, and every dollar more than that enrages me and shows how incompetent DG is. They should all sign one-year “show me” deals. OK...serious question: forget about the Giants trading for Williams and pretend he is about to become a free agent - what would be your guestimate for the annual salary he gets on the open market? OK...not serious, but legitimate.
|
|
|
Post by ThatGuyRich on Feb 10, 2020 21:14:17 GMT -5
Personally I feel Williams would be a solid player on the DLine. But lets see what happens in FA ? Who knows if we can find any top player who even wants to come to a perennial loser. We probably have to overpay whoever we sign to come here. The last 3 years we average a 4-12 record. We might be lucky to talk anyone into believing this 3rd coaching regime in the last 4 years is the one to hitch your wagon to. You all might be damn glad if we could talk Williams into staying here. I never agree with this take on FA. With very few exceptions, these guys go where they can get the most money. I don't disagree with what you say. Thus all the fuss about overpaying Williams. That's why I said we probably overpay whoever we bring in here. It's the only leverage a losing organization can offer.
|
|
|
Post by Delicreep on Feb 10, 2020 21:19:37 GMT -5
I never agree with this take on FA. With very few exceptions, these guys go where they can get the most money. I don't disagree with what you say. Thus all the fuss about overpaying Williams. That's why I said we probably overpay whoever we bring in here. It's the only leverage a losing organization can offer. In the real world, the entire history of Free Agency is overpaying for a guy. For many posters here, it's a time when a real GM can bring a player to his knees at the bargaining table and get a great bargain.
|
|
|
Post by IrishMike on Feb 10, 2020 21:35:40 GMT -5
When it is worded "a 2020 third round pick" then it is ambiguous. This has happened in the past. None of us will know for sure until comp picks are awarded. When has this happened in the past? Dan Duggan of the Athletic actually responded to this issue and said that it was 100% the Giants 3rd rounder (pick no. 68) that was traded. Why wouldn’t the Giants have clarified this after they have been getting flamed everywhere for giving up pick #68? I'm not going to lie, I have no idea but apparently me and TEM read the same article. It was actually posted here, I can't remember the trade example they cited though.
I am personally not a fan of the trade but I don't think it is as bad as some people are making it. If he walks we lose a 5th round pick and gain a 3rd round comp pick next year. Had we signed him in free agency and not traded for him it would have cost us any possible comp picks for next year. Now it's not looking like we will lose enough this year to gain any comp picks next year, but no way to know that 6 months ago.
All that said we will really have to wait until next year to see if this trade was worth it or not. How many comp free agents we lose/gain this year will have a big impact. If we re-sign him and he's a stud no one will care about giving up some picks. Wouldn't be the first time people crushed DG only to eat their words.
|
|
|
Post by TCHOF on Feb 10, 2020 21:39:31 GMT -5
They should all sign one-year “show me” deals. OK...serious question: forget about the Giants trading for Williams and pretend he is about to become a free agent - what would be your guestimate for the annual salary he gets on the open market? OK...not serious, but legitimate. Something a little south of $13M per year?
|
|
|
Post by Delicreep on Feb 10, 2020 21:59:16 GMT -5
OK...serious question: forget about the Giants trading for Williams and pretend he is about to become a free agent - what would be your guestimate for the annual salary he gets on the open market? OK...not serious, but legitimate. Something a little south of $13M per year? Given the history of Free Agency, that sounds right to me. And I think we both agree it's more than teams want to pay for him, it's the reality of the situation. So my guess for the Gints will be between $13.7 and $14.3: a 5% to 10% up charge...call it an idiot tax. I can live with it, but I am sure there are a handful of posters who will see that as the end of the world.
|
|
|
Post by DandyDon on Feb 10, 2020 22:10:46 GMT -5
I don't disagree with what you say. Thus all the fuss about overpaying Williams. That's why I said we probably overpay whoever we bring in here. It's the only leverage a losing organization can offer. In the real world, the entire history of Free Agency is overpaying for a guy. For many posters here, it's a time when a real GM can bring a player to his knees at the bargaining table and get a great bargain. Bring a player to his knees? Nice...
|
|
|
Post by Delicreep on Feb 10, 2020 22:19:07 GMT -5
In the real world, the entire history of Free Agency is overpaying for a guy. For many posters here, it's a time when a real GM can bring a player to his knees at the bargaining table and get a great bargain. Bring a player to his knees? Nice... I get the impression many here would start negotiations with a well laid out argument about how the player really isn't worth much.
|
|
|
Post by Sarcasman on Feb 10, 2020 23:20:14 GMT -5
Half this board still wines about getting rid of Harrison. It's natural that they'd hate Williams and demand he be paid less than the guy he is better and younger than. That's the catch that these fans aren't understanding.. I tried to explain and show these fans that he's going to be making at least 13 million a year minimum and they didn't believe me while claiming he's going to get around 10 million at the most.. The market is the market. I don't love the guy 13m a year worth, do you? Do you think Gettelman is guessing that the market isn't going to be there for Williams at $12m+? Maybe because he was seen as a first round disappointment? It'd be a nice read if he calls it but that is probably giving him too much credit.
|
|
|
Post by Sarcasman on Feb 10, 2020 23:23:39 GMT -5
Bring a player to his knees? Nice... I get the impression many here would start negotiations with a well laid out argument about how the player really isn't worth much. Isn't that an arbitration hearing?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2020 7:55:36 GMT -5
That's the catch that these fans aren't understanding.. I tried to explain and show these fans that he's going to be making at least 13 million a year minimum and they didn't believe me while claiming he's going to get around 10 million at the most.. The market is the market. I don't love the guy 13m a year worth, do you? Do you think Gettelman is guessing that the market isn't going to be there for Williams at $12m+? Maybe because he was seen as a first round disappointment? It'd be a nice read if he calls it but that is probably giving him too much credit. I'm not a fan of paying him more than 8-10 million a year but like you said the market is the market. I would over spend on a RT or maybe a center since those players always need time to adjust to the NFL.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2020 8:06:02 GMT -5
When has this happened in the past? Dan Duggan of the Athletic actually responded to this issue and said that it was 100% the Giants 3rd rounder (pick no. 68) that was traded. Why wouldn’t the Giants have clarified this after they have been getting flamed everywhere for giving up pick #68? I'm not going to lie, I have no idea but apparently me and TEM read the same article. It was actually posted here, I can't remember the trade example they cited though.
I am personally not a fan of the trade but I don't think it is as bad as some people are making it. If he walks we lose a 5th round pick and gain a 3rd round comp pick next year. Had we signed him in free agency and not traded for him it would have cost us any possible comp picks for next year. Now it's not looking like we will lose enough this year to gain any comp picks next year, but no way to know that 6 months ago.
All that said we will really have to wait until next year to see if this trade was worth it or not. How many comp free agents we lose/gain this year will have a big impact. If we re-sign him and he's a stud no one will care about giving up some picks. Wouldn't be the first time people crushed DG only to eat their words.
If they don't use the FA money they freed up then this plans of theirs is a terrible. So with that said I don't know of a scenario where they spend all their FA money but still get awarded a draft pick for Williams.. Do you know what players they can sign but still retain that Williams comp pick?? I think they will lose the chance to be awarded that pick since they must spend some of this extra cap space..
|
|