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Post by giantlegacy on Apr 9, 2020 9:57:28 GMT -5
Yeah it's an interesting call and I'm glad I'm not making it. But I dont know if I buy the idea that the only way Simmons is valuable is to design an entire defense around him. Hes an incredibly fast LB who appears to be able to make plays sideline to sideline, can tackle, cover, and rush the passer. Who cant use a player like that? Agreed. My hesitation is that I'm not a scout, so I can't really evaluate his play (or the play of any of these prospects) to the level that a scout can. I watch games like a fan. Watching Simmons as a fan, he looks great to me …. He was a good college player So.was Tim Tebow (though living in Tampa if you dared to even utter the truth that he wouldn't be the greatest qb of all time like all the Tebow Twats said he would be down here ...which I was right about..you got death threats...which is why I grew to resent him...had he played for another team I probably would have enjoyed him more) |
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Post by bluebuddha on Apr 9, 2020 11:38:17 GMT -5
That's it. It's actually my favorite Giants podcast. Just finished listening.Going to listen to some other episodes. Interesting Sy is leaning at Ot round 1, Edge round 2 and center round 3 if he was drafting. Thinks center is a big weak point on the team currently. His Guards and Center write up is out today on BBI. He ranks really differ a lot from this board. |
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Post by TCHOF on Apr 9, 2020 11:55:36 GMT -5
That's it. It's actually my favorite Giants podcast. Just finished listening.Going to listen to some other episodes. Interesting Sy is leaning at Ot round 1, Edge round 2 and center round 3 if he was drafting. Thinks center is a big weak point on the team currently. His Guards and Center write up is out today on BBI. He ranks really differ a lot from this board. Thanks - I'm going to check it out. UPDATE: His rankings certainly don't track what I've seen out there …. |
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 12, 2020 8:42:52 GMT -5
What if the game plan(s) dont have him as multiple often enough? What does that mean?
Also are you asking what if our coaches use their player wrong? Well in that case we are Fd. That goes for any player. If our coaches are trying to force round pegs into square holes this staff won't last long. Luckily they specifically said they don't operate that way.
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 12, 2020 8:50:41 GMT -5
Fair point. Do you want a guy though who has to have an entire defense built around him to be successful (if this is even true)? What if he gets hurt, is suspended, stinks, etc.? I find this debate fascinating. I lean OL in the first, but can see the argument for Simmons. I've heard people say this before and think it is kind of silly honestly. If all you did was have Simmons play LB and cover TEs he would absolutely have success. He might have better coverage ability than any LB in the NFL.
I think to maximize him as a player you build a system around him, you line him up all over, you disguise your coverages and blitz schemes, you confuse your opponent. That's how you get the most out of him. The real question is do you think our current staff would bring this kid in and not try to maximize him?
It is a great debate when people stay logical and civil. We need an OT, there are a bunch of good OTs; we need a coverage LB there are a few of them.
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Post by GameTime on Apr 12, 2020 9:03:29 GMT -5
What if the game plan(s) dont have him as multiple often enough? What does that mean?
Also are you asking what if our coaches use their player wrong? Well in that case we are Fd. That goes for any player. If our coaches are trying to force round pegs into square holes this staff won't last long. Luckily they specifically said they don't operate that way.
playing devil's advocate........ Simmons is perceived to be a jack of all trades and needs be used often is varying roles. Basically the D has to be a well oiled machine to allow one player to free lance. The Giants D is an "unknown" in almost every aspect. Not saying the coaches cant get it done but do you build around a Simmons type player or do you add him to a D that is already on its way up and looking for a key piece? if they pick Simmns at 4 I wont be upset I just think it can be better spent on a top OT. I am all for drafting a player that you need AND rate highly. |
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 12, 2020 9:08:12 GMT -5
playing devil's advocate........ Simmons is perceived to be a jack of all trades and needs be used often is varying roles. Basically the D has to be a well oiled machine to allow one player to free lance. The Giants D is an "unknown" in almost every aspect. Not saying the coaches cant get it done but do you build around a Simmons type player or do you add him to a D that is already on its way up and looking for a key piece? if they pick Simmns at 4 I wont be upset I just think it can be better spent on a top OT. I am all for drafting a player that you need AND rate highly. If we don't go Simmons in round 1 I think we need to go with a coverage LB in round 2 anyway.
This is pretty much the same thing with Barkley (or any of the top modern RBs). You need to use them to the best of their ability. Same with Simmons. I don't want a coach that doesn't try to do that. Luckily we have one.
Nothing wrong with OT but we won't be skipping on Simmons because he is "too multiple", which is exactly what our coach specifically said he wants. If we go OT it's because that OT was rated as highly (or close) to Simmons. Another thing to consider is Graham has the most multiple look D in the league last year apparently. I think we are a good fit.
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Post by GameTime on Apr 12, 2020 9:17:18 GMT -5
playing devil's advocate........ Simmons is perceived to be a jack of all trades and needs be used often is varying roles. Basically the D has to be a well oiled machine to allow one player to free lance. The Giants D is an "unknown" in almost every aspect. Not saying the coaches cant get it done but do you build around a Simmons type player or do you add him to a D that is already on its way up and looking for a key piece? if they pick Simmns at 4 I wont be upset I just think it can be better spent on a top OT. I am all for drafting a player that you need AND rate highly. If we don't go Simmons in round 1 I think we need to go with a coverage LB in round 2 anyway.
This is pretty much the same thing with Barkley (or any of the top modern RBs). You need to use them to the best of their ability. Same with Simmons. I don't want a coach that doesn't try to do that. Luckily we have one.
Nothing wrong with OT but we won't be skipping on Simmons because he is "too multiple", which is exactly what our coach specifically said he wants. If we go OT it's because that OT was rated as highly (or close) to Simmons. Another thing to consider is Graham has the most multiple look D in the league last year apparently. I think we are a good fit.
point being that if Simmons cant be multiple because of an overall poor D then what good is he? Can he play just "one" position? Like I said.....devil's advocate. Do you build around and unproven rookie? |
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Post by Kase1 on Apr 12, 2020 9:18:58 GMT -5
Just heard David Syvertsen, aka Sy'56 on the Giants Insider podcast. Some of his points: Simmons is a guy that is ranked so highly because of his versatility, but he is only above average at each role he plays - ILB, Edge Rusher, S. He likes Wirfs the best out of the tackles. Can definitely play LT. Sees him playing RT for a year to get his NFL legs under him and then moving to LT in 2021 when Solder is gone. He thinks that the Giants signed Toilolo because they expect to play a young OT and it would be a big help to the young guy to have Toilolo line up next to him. He had questions about Andrew Thomas' effort. Said that when he gives effort he is excellent, but he does not always give effort. Said that he is similar to Ereck Flowers as a prospect in that way. Interesting stuff …. Anyone that compares Thomas to Flowers is a bafoon and has no idea what theyre looking at. Thomas (like Wills) is a master technician, while Flowers didnt learn hand placement til last year. |
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 12, 2020 10:08:52 GMT -5
point being that if Simmons cant be multiple because of an overall poor D then what good is he? Can he play just "one" position? Like I said.....devil's advocate. Do you build around and unproven rookie? Building around an unproven rookie? Well we did draft an unproven QB last year. Like someone else said we are not drafting him for 1 year.
Yes, he can play just "one" position. He can come in and just be an outstanding coverage LB if that's what you want. But we won't not use him in multiple roles just because the rest of our D is poor. That's kind of silly if you ask me. You put him wear we need him to be successful. The Miami Dolphins had pretty much no talent last year and had one of the most "multiple" defenses in the league.
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 12, 2020 10:10:35 GMT -5
Anyone that compares Thomas to Flowers is a bafoon and has no idea what theyre looking at. Thomas (like Wills) is a master technician, while Flowers didnt learn hand placement til last year. I like Thomas but calling him a master technician is a bit of a stretch man.
Anyway, they were comparing his EFFORT to that of Flowers.
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Post by DandyDon on Apr 12, 2020 10:17:55 GMT -5
If we don't go Simmons in round 1 I think we need to go with a coverage LB in round 2 anyway.
This is pretty much the same thing with Barkley (or any of the top modern RBs). You need to use them to the best of their ability. Same with Simmons. I don't want a coach that doesn't try to do that. Luckily we have one.
Nothing wrong with OT but we won't be skipping on Simmons because he is "too multiple", which is exactly what our coach specifically said he wants. If we go OT it's because that OT was rated as highly (or close) to Simmons. Another thing to consider is Graham has the most multiple look D in the league last year apparently. I think we are a good fit.
point being that if Simmons cant be multiple because of an overall poor D then what good is he? Can he play just "one" position? Like I said.....devil's advocate. Do you build around and unproven rookie? As I mentioned in another thread, you arent drafting the guy at 4 just for this year. And I struggle to believe that a player with his skillset wont help this D, even if he is played mostly as a regular LB who can cover. This isnt saying I think we have to draft him. Just that some of the arguments against it are silly, IMO. |
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Post by bluebuddha on Apr 12, 2020 10:22:46 GMT -5
Just heard David Syvertsen, aka Sy'56 on the Giants Insider podcast. Some of his points: Simmons is a guy that is ranked so highly because of his versatility, but he is only above average at each role he plays - ILB, Edge Rusher, S. He likes Wirfs the best out of the tackles. Can definitely play LT. Sees him playing RT for a year to get his NFL legs under him and then moving to LT in 2021 when Solder is gone. He thinks that the Giants signed Toilolo because they expect to play a young OT and it would be a big help to the young guy to have Toilolo line up next to him. He had questions about Andrew Thomas' effort. Said that when he gives effort he is excellent, but he does not always give effort. Said that he is similar to Ereck Flowers as a prospect in that way. Interesting stuff …. Anyone that compares Thomas to Flowers is a bafoon and has no idea what theyre looking at. Thomas (like Wills) is a master technician, while Flowers didnt learn hand placement til last year. I don't know if you actually read it but he compared Thomas work ethic to Flowers. Other than that he said he would be the top tackle from this draft. |
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Post by GameTime on Apr 12, 2020 10:37:16 GMT -5
point being that if Simmons cant be multiple because of an overall poor D then what good is he? Can he play just "one" position? Like I said.....devil's advocate. Do you build around and unproven rookie? Building around an unproven rookie? Well we did draft an unproven QB last year. Like someone else said we are not drafting him for 1 year.
Yes, he can play just "one" position. He can come in and just be an outstanding coverage LB if that's what you want. But we won't not use him in multiple roles just because the rest of our D is poor. That's kind of silly if you ask me. You put him wear we need him to be successful. The Miami Dolphins had pretty much no talent last year and had one of the most "multiple" defenses in the league.
Potential franchise QBs are whole different mindset when drafting, developing etc IMO you cant compare that at all to any other position. Just my 2 cents on that. As previously stated I would not be opposed to if they drafted Simmons. I get it. Also I am not trying to convince you that Simmons is the "wrong" pick at 4. I still like an OT at 4....thats all. No matter what happens the Giants have to get better on both sides of the ball and how they actually do that remains to be seen. Either way the OL has to do better, Jones has to take the next step, Barkley has to used/play better, the D has to get to at least the middle of the pack success wise. By success I mean limiting the number of points the other team scores. How and if they do that will be fun to watch for sure. |
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Post by GameTime on Apr 12, 2020 10:42:48 GMT -5
point being that if Simmons cant be multiple because of an overall poor D then what good is he? Can he play just "one" position? Like I said.....devil's advocate. Do you build around and unproven rookie? As I mentioned in another thread, you arent drafting the guy at 4 just for this year. And I struggle to believe that a player with his skillset wont help this D, even if he is played mostly as a regular LB who can cover. This isnt saying I think we have to draft him. Just that some of the arguments against it are silly, IMO. to me, developing a young potential franchise QB, takes priority over everything. Now how they do that is subjective of course. Do you do it with a more stout OL. Or do you help the kid by making he D better by getting him the ball back as many times during the game? By limiting the opposing O to under 20+ points every game? Having a Giants O that can score 25+ points a game. So many things. Of course its a combination of things. Looking forward to seeing how they do it. I like the new fresh infix of coaching staff and ultimately players too. |
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 12, 2020 11:03:44 GMT -5
Potential franchise QBs are whole different mindset when drafting, developing etc IMO you cant compare that at all to any other position. Just my 2 cents on that. As previously stated I would not be opposed to if they drafted Simmons. I get it. Also I am not trying to convince you that Simmons is the "wrong" pick at 4. I still like an OT at 4....thats all. No matter what happens the Giants have to get better on both sides of the ball and how they actually do that remains to be seen. Either way the OL has to do better, Jones has to take the next step, Barkley has to used/play better, the D has to get to at least the middle of the pack success wise. By success I mean limiting the number of points the other team scores. How and if they do that will be fun to watch for sure. Time will tell. Like DandyDon said I just think the things some people say against Simmons are kind of silly. One guy said he doesn't have good instincts then admitted to only watching 1 game of his lmao. Another guy thinks he will be a CB. Another guy thinks if you want Simmons then you don't care if the OL sucks. It's really just kind of crazy. I don't care if people want an OT at 4, we really need one, I just wish the odd ball knocks on Simmons would stop. You obviously are not in that list of crazy people.
IMO take the player that is the best. If it's close then you take the OT. I also think it will be Simmons that is rated the highest by us and I don't think it will be close. I could be 100% wrong though.
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Post by Kase1 on Apr 12, 2020 11:14:55 GMT -5
Anyone that compares Thomas to Flowers is a bafoon and has no idea what theyre looking at. Thomas (like Wills) is a master technician, while Flowers didnt learn hand placement til last year. I like Thomas but calling him a master technician is a bit of a stretch man.
Anyway, they were comparing his EFFORT to that of Flowers.
OK, LOL, maybe Master Technician was a stretch, but he is the most technically sound up there with Wills |
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 12, 2020 11:16:49 GMT -5
I like Thomas but calling him a master technician is a bit of a stretch man.
Anyway, they were comparing his EFFORT to that of Flowers.
OK, LOL, maybe Master Technician was a stretch, but he is the most technically sound up there with Wills Fair enough haha. I'm a fan of Thomas, but I think we end up with his teammate. |
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Post by Fletch842 on Apr 12, 2020 11:36:42 GMT -5
OK, LOL, maybe Master Technician was a stretch, but he is the most technically sound up there with Wills Fair enough haha. I'm a fan of Thomas, but I think we end up with his teammate. You think we're picking Fromm?????  |
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 12, 2020 11:45:06 GMT -5
Fair enough haha. I'm a fan of Thomas, but I think we end up with his teammate. You think we're picking Fromm????? LOL, Fromm was the QB I would want if we didn't get Jones. But I think we end up with Isaiah Wilson. |
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