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Post by bringsimmsback on Apr 7, 2020 23:04:57 GMT -5
True but I think OTs get paid less than edge guys of equal status - and often overpaid even when not of equal status. I also think that if both are of equal talent, I want the OT over the edge rusher. Bobby freaking heart got a 3 year $16 million dollar deal for goodness sake. I mean jeeze. The giants only gave Fleming $4 million so I'm not actually expecting anything from him. My apologies but I'm not getting your point.
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Post by jb456 on Apr 7, 2020 23:31:19 GMT -5
Bobby freaking heart got a 3 year $16 million dollar deal for goodness sake. I mean jeeze. The giants only gave Fleming $4 million so I'm not actually expecting anything from him. My apologies but I'm not getting your point. He is a 27 year old JAG who can't get muster a better contract than 1 year 3.4 Million in an Oline starved league. Does this help?
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Post by fifthavephil on Apr 7, 2020 23:35:18 GMT -5
Isaiah Wilson can be had at number two. He is not. a LT , but should be able to handle RT. A. Jackson, could be available at two, but could go lower first round. Jackson, will turn 21 yrs old May 17th. I don’t know if he is a day one starter. Another , RT is Lucas Niang ( TCU ) should go in the second round. Remember, any OT Giants draft will compete for RT , pick four or thirty - six . Just imagine TEM and Phil guiding our team? So, what are you trying to say ?
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Post by bringsimmsback on Apr 8, 2020 1:31:59 GMT -5
My apologies but I'm not getting your point. He is a 27 year old JAG who can't get muster a better contract than 1 year 3.4 Million in an Oline starved league. Does this help? No. It doesn't.
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 8, 2020 5:03:46 GMT -5
If we go D in round 1 (several options there) then it will depend heavily who is there in round 2. Center is a bigger need this year than OT. We do not have a Center. Cam Fleming can start at RT if we need. IMO if we don't go OT in round 2 it's very possible, even likely, that Center has higher value/grades in round 2 and we take a Center not a OT (although I really like Jones and Jackson). That leaves us taking an OT in round 3-4 depending on the value. WR should have plenty of value as well so it'll be interesting.
I don't think enough people are realizing (glad TEM pointed it out) that Cam Fleming was a major signing for us. Not a great player but two staffs (Pats and Boys) on this team now worked with him and were willing to pay him $3.5m for this year. No back up OTs get signed for that much from the numbers I have seen. So he is at the very least brought in to compete for a starting job. He also gives us the option if we do end up with a 1st round OT then we could possibly cut Solder for the extra money and have the rookie and Fleming start.
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Post by TEM on Apr 8, 2020 6:41:44 GMT -5
Isaiah Wilson can be had at number two. He is not. a LT , but should be able to handle RT. A. Jackson, could be available at two, but could go lower first round. Jackson, will turn 21 yrs old May 17th. I don’t know if he is a day one starter. Another , RT is Lucas Niang ( TCU ) should go in the second round. Remember, any OT Giants draft will compete for RT , pick four or thirty - six . Just imagine TEM and Phil guiding our team? If you are going to bust balls about the draft this time of the year. Use the megaphone to make your voice loud and clear. thegiantsboard.proboards.com/thread/6154/mock-draft-contest-2020If you believe you know what the FO will do better than Phil and myself or anyone . Take your chances with the rest of us. Do a mock
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Post by giants8493 on Apr 8, 2020 7:43:57 GMT -5
Bobby freaking heart got a 3 year $16 million dollar deal for goodness sake. I mean jeeze. The giants only gave Fleming $4 million so I'm not actually expecting anything from him. My apologies but I'm not getting your point. Bobby Hart is awful. And people are relying on Fleming, who has a legitimate chance of being worse to be the answer at rt. This is a problem. If you have any skill at all you would make at least 5 mil per year as an nfl tackle. My point is that even bad olinemen can get paid really well. And if you are an experienced tackle and still can't get a decent contract then this is concerning to me.
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Post by bringsimmsback on Apr 8, 2020 7:49:32 GMT -5
My apologies but I'm not getting your point. Bobby Hart is awful. And people are relying on Fleming, who has a legitimate chance of being worse to be the answer at rt. This is a problem. If you have any skill at all you would make at least 5 mil per year as an nfl tackle. My point is that even bad olinemen can get paid really well. And if you are an experienced tackle and still can't get a decent contract then this is concerning to me. Thanks for clarifying. What you say is true, of course, but my point was that it seems pass rushers get paid even more, especially at the upper end of the talent pool.
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Post by giants8493 on Apr 8, 2020 7:55:32 GMT -5
Bobby Hart is awful. And people are relying on Fleming, who has a legitimate chance of being worse to be the answer at rt. This is a problem. If you have any skill at all you would make at least 5 mil per year as an nfl tackle. My point is that even bad olinemen can get paid really well. And if you are an experienced tackle and still can't get a decent contract then this is concerning to me. Thanks for clarifying. What you say is true, of course, but my point was that it seems pass rushers get paid even more, especially at the upper end of the talent pool. no problem. I would think that just the highest end would get paid more. Oline gets paid more for being average. There are more competent pass rushers then there are pass blockers so it is simply supply and demand.
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Post by bavarobeast on Apr 8, 2020 9:26:01 GMT -5
There is no denying Chase Young is quite a specimen and no I’m not saying we should pass on him - but........ A quick look at his production from his last 3 games of 2019. The 3 biggest games of the season. Michigan - OSU’s biggest rivalry game. He was held in check by Jon Runyon - a late round draft projection. Runyon got some help with chips on occasion but that’s not something unique in the game of football so let’s not use that as an excuse. Runyon handled Young one on one also. Young had no tackles - NO SACKS in a huge game for the Buckeyes. Wisconsin - Big 10 Championship - 6 tackles - NO SACKS Clemson - College Playoff - 2 tackles NO SACKS 3 biggest games of the year. 8 tackles - NO SACKS Check out how Michigan neutralized Young below. Just food for thought because it’s not gonna get any easier for Young in the NFL. wolverineswire.usatoday.com/2020/02/27/michigan-football-jon-runyan-jr-nfl-combine-ohio-state-chase-young/
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Post by bringsimmsback on Apr 8, 2020 9:29:15 GMT -5
Thanks for clarifying. What you say is true, of course, but my point was that it seems pass rushers get paid even more, especially at the upper end of the talent pool. no problem. I would think that just the highest end would get paid more. Oline gets paid more for being average. There are more competent pass rushers then there are pass blockers so it is simply supply and demand. Perhaps, I'm not going to act like I've done a careful study but Fackrell, at least, suggests otherwise 🙂
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Post by jb456 on Apr 8, 2020 9:43:51 GMT -5
He is a 27 year old JAG who can't get muster a better contract than 1 year 3.4 Million in an Oline starved league. Does this help? No. It doesn't. 27 years old is prime age in the NFL. Average to bellow average Oline get paid a lot more than this and with the new CBA, salaries are increasing. Please explain how this concept is confusing.
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 8, 2020 9:50:54 GMT -5
Judging a player's skill based on his salary is a mistake. The fact people would be "excited" if we paid Fleming $10m per year confuses me.
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Post by jb456 on Apr 8, 2020 10:23:03 GMT -5
If we go D in round 1 (several options there) then it will depend heavily who is there in round 2. Center is a bigger need this year than OT. We do not have a Center. Cam Fleming can start at RT if we need. IMO if we don't go OT in round 2 it's very possible, even likely, that Center has higher value/grades in round 2 and we take a Center not a OT (although I really like Jones and Jackson). That leaves us taking an OT in round 3-4 depending on the value. WR should have plenty of value as well so it'll be interesting. I don't think enough people are realizing (glad TEM pointed it out) that Cam Fleming was a major signing for us. Not a great player but two staffs (Pats and Boys) on this team now worked with him and were willing to pay him $3.5m for this year. No back up OTs get signed for that much from the numbers I have seen. So he is at the very least brought in to compete for a starting job. He also gives us the option if we do end up with a 1st round OT then we could possibly cut Solder for the extra money and have the rookie and Fleming start. NFL teams don't let even average Oline walk unless they are asking for stupid money. A 1 year $3.4M contract at 27 years old (Prime age in NFL) is 100% a prove it contract. 3.4M is bottom 3rd starting money and when you consider that many of those players who are getting paid less are playing under their rookie contract (1st contract) and the new CBA has increased salaries, the dollars and length of this contract is very telling. Fleming may very well start for the Giants but he is not even an average NFL center. With that said, the Giants needed to sign someone and this was an important signing.
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 8, 2020 10:34:34 GMT -5
NFL teams don't let even average Oline walk unless they are asking for stupid money. Yes they do. All the time actually. Especially when you are the Cowboys and just paid Zeke, all your starting OL and now your QB and WR and some pass rusher from his couch lol. They don't have money. Also they didn't have a choice, he isn't a slave. Perhaps he wanted to play for our staff because he knows them.
Bottom line is he worked with the Pats and Cowboys, the coaches making up our staff and these guys wanted him. I will trust their judgement until he proves otherwise.
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Post by giants8493 on Apr 8, 2020 10:57:06 GMT -5
no problem. I would think that just the highest end would get paid more. Oline gets paid more for being average. There are more competent pass rushers then there are pass blockers so it is simply supply and demand. Perhaps, I'm not going to act like I've done a careful study but Fackrell, at least, suggests otherwise 🙂 well Bobby heart was my example. And the fact that golden is still available with no one wanting clowney also pushed me to think that. But yeah I also am not interested in a real study. Doesn't really matter players get what their agent gets for them
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Post by jb456 on Apr 8, 2020 11:33:08 GMT -5
NFL teams don't let even average Oline walk unless they are asking for stupid money. Yes they do. All the time actually. Especially when you are the Cowboys and just paid Zeke, all your starting OL and now your QB and WR and some pass rusher from his couch lol. They don't have money. Also they didn't have a choice, he isn't a slave. Perhaps he wanted to play for our staff because he knows them.
Bottom line is he worked with the Pats and Cowboys, the coaches making up our staff and these guys wanted him. I will trust their judgement until he proves otherwise.
Dallas has plenty of Money. They have $17.5 Million in cap space and that includes the $11M cap hit from Frederick (Which comes off the books next year). They really know how to manage their cap. Bottom line is the Giants have a bad Oline and defense. The two aren't mutually exclusive...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 12:00:58 GMT -5
The fact people would be "excited" if we paid Fleming $10m per year confuses me. The fact people would be "excited" if we played Fleming as a starting tackle confuses me 75th tackle among 85 qualifying tackles. Allowed 9 pressures on only 136 passing attempts in 2018 ...13 pressures on 234 in 2019 Video analysis suggests the 4 million a bit steep. On the plus side, sounds like the perfect Solder compliment. ...57 pressures in 684
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Post by giantlegacy on Apr 8, 2020 12:49:58 GMT -5
The fact people would be "excited" if we paid Fleming $10m per year confuses me. The fact people would be "excited" if we played Fleming as a starting tackle confuses me 75th tackle among 85 qualifying tackles. Allowed 9 pressures on only 136 passing attempts Video analysis suggests the 4 million a bit steep. On the plus side, sounds like the perfect Solder compliment. Yet there are people that are perfectly OK with those 2 as our starters
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Post by bringsimmsback on Apr 8, 2020 14:59:20 GMT -5
27 years old is prime age in the NFL. Average to bellow average Oline get paid a lot more than this and with the new CBA, salaries are increasing. Please explain how this concept is confusing. How the point connected to my discussion on the upper-end salaries of pass-rushers compared to upper-end salaries of OTs was what confused me originally and the person who initially responded to me clarified that already. Thanks for trying to help, though.
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Post by bringsimmsback on Apr 8, 2020 15:02:17 GMT -5
The fact people would be "excited" if we paid Fleming $10m per year confuses me. The fact people would be "excited" if we played Fleming as a starting tackle confuses me 75th tackle among 85 qualifying tackles. Allowed 9 pressures on only 136 passing attempts in 2018 ...13 pressures on 234 in 2019 Video analysis suggests the 4 million a bit steep. On the plus side, sounds like the perfect Solder compliment. ...57 pressures in 684 I'm not crazy about Fleming myself (though I was a few years ago when he was last on the open market). I would have preferred to bring Remmers back. With his back and limited success away from Schumer, however, I ain't ready to take to the streets over it.
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 8, 2020 15:57:55 GMT -5
Yes they do. All the time actually. Especially when you are the Cowboys and just paid Zeke, all your starting OL and now your QB and WR and some pass rusher from his couch lol. They don't have money. Also they didn't have a choice, he isn't a slave. Perhaps he wanted to play for our staff because he knows them.
Bottom line is he worked with the Pats and Cowboys, the coaches making up our staff and these guys wanted him. I will trust their judgement until he proves otherwise.
Dallas has plenty of Money. They have $17.5 Million in cap space and that includes the $11M cap hit from Frederick (Which comes off the books next year). They really know how to manage their cap. Bottom line is the Giants have a bad Oline and defense. The two aren't mutually exclusive... Of course they are not mutually exclusive, I've said that over and over. I'm responding to your post about "teams not letting average OL go", which is false for the reasons I listed. He has a choice in the matter, his coaches just left, no one wants to pay a back up OT $3.5m+. They have $17.5m in space but still need to make a deal with Dak which will be pricey.
Paying Fleming $3.5m would make him the 13th highest paid player on their team. They are not going to do that for a back up OL.
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 8, 2020 16:00:47 GMT -5
The fact people would be "excited" if we played Fleming as a starting tackle confuses me Just so you know this is why I blocked you. You constantly make things up. No one is excited to have Fleming as the starting OT.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 16:15:29 GMT -5
The fact people would be "excited" if we played Fleming as a starting tackle confuses me Just so you know this is why I blocked you. You constantly make things up. No one is excited to have Fleming as the starting OT.
Stop peeping at me....I enjoy your posts so I will not block you, amusing as to how often you are covering your tracks to "be right" ...since when are you people? Are the people you refer to in anyone in particular?...as per the norm, you left that part out...cherry picking quotes and posts again. This is your quote I responded to Are you yourself making something up? Who wants to pay Fleming 10 million? What People? Seems you are doing exactly the same as I posted to you...suggesting people.
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Post by jb456 on Apr 8, 2020 16:51:43 GMT -5
Dallas has plenty of Money. They have $17.5 Million in cap space and that includes the $11M cap hit from Frederick (Which comes off the books next year). They really know how to manage their cap. Bottom line is the Giants have a bad Oline and defense. The two aren't mutually exclusive... Of course they are not mutually exclusive, I've said that over and over. I'm responding to your post about "teams not letting average OL go", which is false for the reasons I listed. He has a choice in the matter, his coaches just left, no one wants to pay a back up OT $3.5m+. They have $17.5m in space but still need to make a deal with Dak which will be pricey.
Paying Fleming $3.5m would make him the 13th highest paid player on their team. They are not going to do that for a back up OL.
Actually, the $17.5M already includes Dak's tag of $29M but he may actually get a few million more if they sign him. Also, Fleming needs a lot of work to get up to average. I think he is bottom 10 in all tackles (Like 90 of them) or worse. Remmers is an upgrade to this guy. Fleming has been in the league for 6 years and the last 2 of those years have been under the same Oline coach that he has with the Giants (Columbo). So don't expect any improvement from this guy with the Giants Coaching staff because he didn't improve with the same staff when he was with the Cowboys. As you pointed out, and I agree, money alone doesn't mean anything but if you factor the players ability (which has been bottom of the barrel (Gives up ridiculous amount of pressures), the probability that he will improve, Low (since he has been in the league for 6 years, last 2 under the same coached he will have in 2020), and the money he is being paid (Low, 1 year prove it deal of $3.4M in his prime). All of these factors lead many of us to believe that he is a JAG. Believe me bro, I would love Fleming to be average but there is no evidence to even support that outcome. I want to be wrong and will gladly eat a dump truck full of crow so the Giants can improve this year. I sick of this crappy football...
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 8, 2020 17:06:07 GMT -5
Are you yourself making something up? Who wants to pay Fleming 10 million? What People? Seems you are doing exactly the same as I posted to you...suggesting people. So why not just say that instead of being passive aggressive. My post was in direct response to a poster basing a players skill level on their salary. We both know that is not a good judge. Eli Manning is the highest paid QB ever. That line of thinking would lead to people being more excited if we signed a "high dollar" free agent.
Glad you enjoy my posts though.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 17:13:48 GMT -5
Are you yourself making something up? Who wants to pay Fleming 10 million? What People? Seems you are doing exactly the same as I posted to you...suggesting people. So why not just say that instead of being passive aggressive. My post was in direct response to a poster basing a players skill level on their salary. We both know that is not a good judge. Eli Manning is the highest paid QB ever. That line of thinking would lead to people being more excited if we signed a "high dollar" free agent.
Glad you enjoy my posts though.
Come back Mikey...I miss arguing with you.
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 8, 2020 17:24:35 GMT -5
So why not just say that instead of being passive aggressive. My post was in direct response to a poster basing a players skill level on their salary. We both know that is not a good judge. Eli Manning is the highest paid QB ever. That line of thinking would lead to people being more excited if we signed a "high dollar" free agent.
Glad you enjoy my posts though.
Come back Mikey...I miss arguing with you.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 17:26:33 GMT -5
Come back Mikey...I miss arguing with you. ItalianMike?
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Post by IrishMike on Apr 8, 2020 17:31:57 GMT -5
You're such a Clown ey.....
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