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Post by McCherry on Apr 16, 2020 19:56:24 GMT -5
I think the Giants need a big body on the outside, maybe Chase Claypool from ND. Size is overated Speed,route running,post catch... Hight is a bonus Big body guys lose their ability to get seperation earlier as well and become useless This makes no sense, some of the top WR's in the NFL and this draft are big receivers that run a 4.4 or slower. I think its the other way around. Speed is less important than size because they're all fast. You get a player that's big and can run in the vicinity of 4.5, as opposed to past track stars like Carter and Moss. Again, we are not getting a slow receiver in this draft unless you consider 4.5 slow
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Receivers
Apr 16, 2020 20:12:40 GMT -5
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Post by giantlegacy on Apr 16, 2020 20:12:40 GMT -5
Size is overated Speed,route running,post catch... Hight is a bonus Big body guys lose their ability to get seperation earlier as well and become useless This makes no sense, some of the top WR's in the NFL and this draft are big receivers that run a 4.4 or slower. I think its the other way around. Speed is less important than size because they're all fast. You get a player that's big and can run in the vicinity of 4.5, as opposed to past track stars like Carter and Moss. Again, we are not getting a slow receiver in this draft unless you consider 4.5 slow And big body types don't have the route running nuances the mid sized and shorter guys are,which also affects seperation.. And many of the big bodied guys many are clamoring for ran well over 4.5... Sorry,the concept of a big chain moving possession reciever is dated,teams just stick their physical but slow corner on that guy and one on one taken out Modern nfl. Speed..more speed The 2 fastest offesnes in the NFL as per next Gen were in the super bowl(yep,between Sanders,Samuel's and the backs) Speed opens up the running game A plodding slow big guy covered 1 on on allows an extra person in the box.
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Receivers
Apr 16, 2020 21:34:35 GMT -5
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Post by cocktailkerry on Apr 16, 2020 21:34:35 GMT -5
I think the Giants need a big body on the outside, maybe Chase Claypool from ND. Size is overated Speed,route running,post catch... Hight is a bonus Big body guys lose their ability to get seperation earlier as well and become useless I implore you to rewatch the Giants Packers NFC Championship and Plaxico undress Al Harris and tell me again that size doesn't matter. In the NFL you have to get throws into tight windows. Big body guys make that easier on a QB, and the are better in the red zone as well. You are not always going to have a guy open in space. I do agree their shelf life may be a ltlle short because of their physicality but they mean a lot to an offense and especially to a young QB.
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Receivers
Apr 16, 2020 22:43:37 GMT -5
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Post by jaymas on Apr 16, 2020 22:43:37 GMT -5
Straight line 40 speed is the most overrated thing in the world, especially when we're talking about the difference between a 4.4 and a 4.5. A players hips, lateral quickness, change of direction ability, all more important raw characteristics.
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Receivers
Apr 16, 2020 22:54:40 GMT -5
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Post by giantlegacy on Apr 16, 2020 22:54:40 GMT -5
Size is overated Speed,route running,post catch... Hight is a bonus Big body guys lose their ability to get seperation earlier as well and become useless I implore you to rewatch the Giants Packers NFC Championship and Plaxico undress Al Harris and tell me again that size doesn't matter. In the NFL you have to get throws into tight windows. Big body guys make that easier on a QB, and the are better in the red zone as well. You are not always going to have a guy open in space. I do agree their shelf life may be a ltlle short because of their physicality but they mean a lot to an offense and especially to a young QB. Who was the big bodied reciever on the Chiefs? They let the TEs do the inside and red zone work Same with the 49ers TEs and the fullback For Every Plax you get 10 Ramses Bardens because they don't have the route running ability,sharpness to cuts,ect. The only guy with size I like is Mims because he has Randy Moss like traits ... I'll take a well rounded 6'1-6'2 guy or under that can run every route crisp,Crisp, seperation,blow the top off a defense and be sick with the ball every time
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Receivers
Apr 16, 2020 22:58:06 GMT -5
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Post by giantlegacy on Apr 16, 2020 22:58:06 GMT -5
Straight line 40 speed is the most overrated thing in the world, especially when we're talking about the difference between a 4.4 and a 4.5. A players hips, lateral quickness, change of direction ability, all more important raw characteristics. Not arguing that But a big guy often doesn't have the lateral quickness and those other things as well because of body type Lamb and Jeudy tested off the charts for all those things and 4.45 speed makes them frightening... But a lumbering 6'3 guy that runs a 4.6 and mediocre at best other traits.. BuT hE iS a BiG bOdY wE nEeD... Yeah For training camp fodder as an undrafted free agent
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Receivers
Apr 16, 2020 23:09:24 GMT -5
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Post by jaymas on Apr 16, 2020 23:09:24 GMT -5
Straight line 40 speed is the most overrated thing in the world, especially when we're talking about the difference between a 4.4 and a 4.5. A players hips, lateral quickness, change of direction ability, all more important raw characteristics. Not arguing that But a big guy often doesn't have the lateral quickness and those other things as well because of body type Lamb and Jeudy tested off the charts for all those things and 4.45 speed makes them frightening... But a lumbering 6'3 guy that runs a 4.6 and mediocre at best other traits.. BuT hE iS a BiG bOdY wE nEeD... Yeah For training camp fodder as an undrafted free agent Oh yeah, wasn't directed at you. Just a general statement. Don't care about size as much as those other factors. Nick's and oBJ were two of the best in traffic guys I've ever seen and they were 6ft 1 and 5ft 11. Wouldn't complain about a Calvin Johnson style unicorn or a tall Randy Moss speedster...but great height and an elite 40 time are not a prerequisite for me.
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Receivers
Apr 16, 2020 23:27:37 GMT -5
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Post by infinite420 on Apr 16, 2020 23:27:37 GMT -5
I implore you to rewatch the Giants Packers NFC Championship and Plaxico undress Al Harris and tell me again that size doesn't matter. In the NFL you have to get throws into tight windows. Big body guys make that easier on a QB, and the are better in the red zone as well. You are not always going to have a guy open in space. I do agree their shelf life may be a ltlle short because of their physicality but they mean a lot to an offense and especially to a young QB. Who was the big bodied reciever on the Chiefs? They let the TEs do the inside and red zone work Same with the 49ers TEs and the fullback For Every Plax you get 10 Ramses Bardens because they don't have the route running ability,sharpness to cuts,ect. The only guy with size I like is Mims because he has Randy Moss like traits ... I'll take a well rounded 6'1-6'2 guy or under that can run every route crisp,Crisp, seperation,blow the top off a defense and be sick with the ball every time Travis Kelce, Sammy Watkins? Both pretty good sized. Deebo Samuel is a brick house. I dont get your resistance to a "big" WR that doesnt run a 4.4. What traits does Mims have that a guy like Higgins doesnt? Im confused? Hopkins, Michael Thomas, Larry Fitz, Chad Johnson all ran 4.57s. None of those guys are "plodders" If you have size theres less need to be fast to seperate, your body does that for you if you know how to use it Cris Carter, Hakeem Nicks & Plax all ran 4.6s Anquan Boldin & Jerry Rice ran 4.7s. A guy like Laviska Shenault should beast out if guys like AJ Brown & Deebo Samuel have.
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Receivers
Apr 16, 2020 23:45:44 GMT -5
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Post by giantlegacy on Apr 16, 2020 23:45:44 GMT -5
Who was the big bodied reciever on the Chiefs? They let the TEs do the inside and red zone work Same with the 49ers TEs and the fullback For Every Plax you get 10 Ramses Bardens because they don't have the route running ability,sharpness to cuts,ect. The only guy with size I like is Mims because he has Randy Moss like traits ... I'll take a well rounded 6'1-6'2 guy or under that can run every route crisp,Crisp, seperation,blow the top off a defense and be sick with the ball every time Travis Kelce, Sammy Watkins? Both pretty good sized. Deebo Samuel is a brick house. I dont get your resistance to a "big" WR that doesnt run a 4.4. What traits does Mims have that a guy like Higgins doesnt? Im confused? Hopkins, Michael Thomas, Larry Fitz, Chad Johnson all ran 4.57s. None of those guys are "plodders" If you have size theres less need to be fast to seperate, your body does that for you if you know how to use it Cris Carter, Hakeem Nicks & Plax all ran 4.6s Anquan Boldin & Jerry Rice ran 4.7s. A guy like Laviska Shenault should beast out if guys like AJ Brown & Deebo Samuel have. Samuel's ran a sub 4.4 Kelce is a TE,like I suggested Brown a 4.5 Nicks lost his ability to separate after a few injuries Plax was a deep threat The guys you listed are unincorns Most big guys that are slow suck because they don't have good agility or lateral movement,can't get in and out of breaks sudden enough,ect.. Speed kills in the modern game,push the safeties back and it opens up everything else I see a lot of big bodied guys that dominated less athletic guys in college that will end up bottom of roster guys at best when they can't get seperation against even backups in preseason this year.. Give me a guy like Quez Watkins...better route runner already coming out than Slayton,same body type, same physical atributes..makes the contested catches.. You want a big bodied guy,trade Engram and draft a Colby Parkinson day 3 and have 2 6'6 guys that have athletic ability and can block inline,and do the "possession " type work underneath and in the red zone...and let Slayton and the other dynamic guy open things up just by their presence
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Post by infinite420 on Apr 16, 2020 23:56:44 GMT -5
Travis Kelce, Sammy Watkins? Both pretty good sized. Deebo Samuel is a brick house. I dont get your resistance to a "big" WR that doesnt run a 4.4. What traits does Mims have that a guy like Higgins doesnt? Im confused? Hopkins, Michael Thomas, Larry Fitz, Chad Johnson all ran 4.57s. None of those guys are "plodders" If you have size theres less need to be fast to seperate, your body does that for you if you know how to use it Cris Carter, Hakeem Nicks & Plax all ran 4.6s Anquan Boldin & Jerry Rice ran 4.7s. A guy like Laviska Shenault should beast out if guys like AJ Brown & Deebo Samuel have. Samuel's ran a sub 4.4 Kelce is a TE,like I suggested Brown a 4.5 Nicks lost his ability to separate after a few injuries Plax was a deep threat The guys you listed are unincorns Most big guys that are slow suck because they don't have good agility or lateral movement,can't get in and out of breaks sudden enough,ect.. Speed kills in the modern game,push the safeties back and it opens up everything else I see a lot of big bodied guys that dominated less athletic guys in college that will end up bottom of roster guys at best when they can't get seperation against even backups in preseason this year.. Give me a guy like Quez Watkins...better route runner already coming out than Slayton,same body type, same physical atributes..makes the contested catches.. You want a big bodied guy,trade Engram and draft a Colby Parkinson day 3 and have 2 6'6 guys that have athletic ability and can block inline,and do the "possession " type work underneath and in the red zone...and let Slayton and the other dynamic guy open things up just by their presence Deebo Samuel ran a 4.48 at the Combine, hes no blazer so to speak. When youre that physical, running a 4.5-4.6, is more than enough.
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Post by Fletch842 on Apr 17, 2020 5:49:32 GMT -5
Not arguing that But a big guy often doesn't have the lateral quickness and those other things as well because of body type Lamb and Jeudy tested off the charts for all those things and 4.45 speed makes them frightening... But a lumbering 6'3 guy that runs a 4.6 and mediocre at best other traits.. BuT hE iS a BiG bOdY wE nEeD... Yeah For training camp fodder as an undrafted free agent Oh yeah, wasn't directed at you. Just a general statement. Don't care about size as much as those other factors. Nick's and oBJ were two of the best in traffic guys I've ever seen and they were 6ft 1 and 5ft 11. Wouldn't complain about a Calvin Johnson style unicorn or a tall Randy Moss speedster...but great height and an elite 40 time are not a prerequisite for me. I'm with you, it's not the size, its the combination of physical traits that brings it together.
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Post by Jomo on Apr 18, 2020 12:46:53 GMT -5
Oh yeah, wasn't directed at you. Just a general statement. Don't care about size as much as those other factors. Nick's and oBJ were two of the best in traffic guys I've ever seen and they were 6ft 1 and 5ft 11. Wouldn't complain about a Calvin Johnson style unicorn or a tall Randy Moss speedster...but great height and an elite 40 time are not a prerequisite for me. I'm with you, it's not the size, its the combination of physical traits that brings it together. I'll take size but not without the other factors and frankly they need to be there first. Remember what happens when you go out and try to replace a tall receiver with another tall receiver. You waste a third round pick on Ramses Barden.
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Post by Jomo on Apr 18, 2020 14:01:00 GMT -5
I don't want to make this beat up Ramses day here but beyond the measurables are the intangibles. That guy couldn't (wouldn't) fight for a ball if his life depended on it. Maybe some of that could be measured in how he pushed around the weights. I think more than raw strength is a tenacity inside to not let a defender push you off your mark which was something he specialized in. Sorry Ramses, just trying to make a point and you became my example.
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Receivers
Apr 18, 2020 15:16:48 GMT -5
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Post by giantlegacy on Apr 18, 2020 15:16:48 GMT -5
Also If the passing game is indeed going more vertical outside because Garrett preferes the Coryell style of timing patterns (a cousin of the WCO in that both employ timing patterns,the WCO being on paper more controlled and shorter drops,though the concepts overlap quite a bit as both the Rams and Chiefs have more a vertical element)we are going to need deep threats and recievers that can get seperation quickly with great route running..
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Receivers
Apr 18, 2020 15:31:45 GMT -5
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Post by giantlegacy on Apr 18, 2020 15:31:45 GMT -5
I guess most of you wouldn’t have taken Mega Tron then. Randy Moss. Plaxico Burrees is a big reason we went on our Super Bowl XLII Championship run. Let's see Megatron ran a 4.3 something and killed the other tests Same with Moss Burress was a long strider that took a little bit to get to top.speed For every one of these types there are 10 Ramses Bardens because ..big..terrible short shuttle and agility tests.. Big guys have natural issues with running the entite route tree crisp because of their body type..physics and shit.. Size is just as ovetated as a 40 time where they show nothing else .. With that's said ill take the 4.41 guy that aces his agilitu drills and has 10 inch hands over a 6'4 guy that just wins because he is big and bullies smaller players in college any day of the week,or a guy that just goes down after catching it ..
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Receivers
Apr 18, 2020 15:32:26 GMT -5
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Post by TCHOF on Apr 18, 2020 15:32:26 GMT -5
I guess most of you wouldn’t have taken Mega Tron then. Randy Moss. Plaxico Burrees is a big reason we went on our Super Bowl XLII Championship run. I’m not sure if the test really means much for any position other than QB ... although if you have two players graded equally in physical skill, you’d probably rather have the smarter guy
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Post by McCherry on Apr 18, 2020 15:35:25 GMT -5
Claypool, Mims and Jefferson are all big receivers with speed that we can get in the mid rounds.
Again, all the WR's coming out of college all have speed.
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Receivers
Apr 18, 2020 15:43:52 GMT -5
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Post by giantlegacy on Apr 18, 2020 15:43:52 GMT -5
Claypool, Mims and Jefferson are all big receivers with speed that we can get in the mid rounds. Again, all the WR's coming out of college all have speed. Mims and Jefferson also have rare lateral and agility for their body types as well and can rum crisp precise patterns to gain seperation.. Claypool ...he runs foward very well,can jump,..he is limited with agility,thus not really a fan because he is a bit 1 dimensional...we have a guy like this already in Engram ..who actually has more agility and contrary to some is a great blocker for his assignments..
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Post by roundabout on Apr 18, 2020 15:44:27 GMT -5
I guess most of you wouldn’t have taken Mega Tron then. Randy Moss. Plaxico Burrees is a big reason we went on our Super Bowl XLII Championship run. And Plaxico was a big reason why we didn't repeat in 2008
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Post by McCherry on Apr 18, 2020 16:21:57 GMT -5
Claypool, Mims and Jefferson are all big receivers with speed that we can get in the mid rounds. Again, all the WR's coming out of college all have speed. Mims and Jefferson also have rare lateral and agility for their body types as well and can rum crisp precise patterns to gain seperation.. Claypool ...he runs foward very well,can jump,..he is limited with agility,thus not really a fan because he is a bit 1 dimensional...we have a guy like this already in Engram ..who actually has more agility and contrary to some is a great blocker for his assignments.. It really depends on how they project in the NFL. Slayton raised his level of playing beyond anything you saw in college. If all our assistants were as good as Tyke Tolbert, Shurmur might still be coaching. It's amazing the production he's gotten out of our receiving corps. If feel good about whatever decision they make. It would be smart to draft at least two. The good thing is with our current lineup they don't have to contribute right away.
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Receivers
Apr 18, 2020 16:32:04 GMT -5
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Post by NAVY2323(ret) on Apr 18, 2020 16:32:04 GMT -5
I guess most of you wouldn’t have taken Mega Tron then. Randy Moss. Plaxico Burrees is a big reason we went on our Super Bowl XLII Championship run. And Plaxico was a big reason why we didn't repeat in 2008 I am far more thankful for the SB we wouldn’t have won with out him than upset about the one we maybe didn’t win because of him. You can make a strong argument that he may be the most impactful receiver that we have ever had. He made a bad decision. I am sure he had no intention of shooting himself, it was an accident.
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Post by giantlegacy on Apr 18, 2020 17:27:09 GMT -5
Mims and Jefferson also have rare lateral and agility for their body types as well and can rum crisp precise patterns to gain seperation.. Claypool ...he runs foward very well,can jump,..he is limited with agility,thus not really a fan because he is a bit 1 dimensional...we have a guy like this already in Engram ..who actually has more agility and contrary to some is a great blocker for his assignments.. It really depends on how they project in the NFL. Slayton raised his level of playing beyond anything you saw in college. If all our assistants were as good as Tyke Tolbert, Shurmur might still be coaching. It's amazing the production he's gotten out of our receiving corps. If feel good about whatever decision they make. It would be smart to draft at least two. The good thing is with our current lineup they don't have to contribute right away. Bavarobeast was 100% accurate in his assement as he lives in Auburn country... His issue wasn't talent..it was he was held back by a scheme that kinda castrated the passing game from showcasing both him and Stridham(and i have no doubt Stridham was on our radar last year as we had scouts at more than a few of their games,and Slayton probably caught their eye)..kinda in a way Megatron was held back at GA Tech (though he was so insanely good he showed off in the tune of 4 caches for 175 yards a game)..ane he had a nearsighted issue he corrected after rookie camp because after that camp he caught everything in sight...(which is why many of us were high on Mims way back in oct..he was outplaying his stats being held back by a meh system) This is why im so high on players like Quez Watkins (watch his tape..same exact size,speed and skillsets,but more advanced system = better developed route running and skills),Donovan People's Jones(bad QB play and meh system...i see a very young Armani Toomer when Toomer had deep speed ),Van Jefferson (silky soft as a baby's ass route running and enough speed was able to produce despite meh qb play..if he was on Georgia with Fromm he probably is a 1st rounder). This is why im so wanting to fix this line once and for all this year early and get one of these mid round finds....Tolbert and that kind of talent will be an incredible match.. Oh Judge keeping him says a lot
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Receivers
Apr 18, 2020 22:55:45 GMT -5
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Post by Miked1958 on Apr 18, 2020 22:55:45 GMT -5
I don't see how anyone can take Engram seriously at this point. I know right. So inconsistent. Why cant he be the guy we saw take that pass from Jones against TB and take it 75 yards to the house leaving all their DBs in the dust more often
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Receivers
Apr 19, 2020 0:37:33 GMT -5
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Post by giantlegacy on Apr 19, 2020 0:37:33 GMT -5
I don't see how anyone can take Engram seriously at this point. I know right. So inconsistent. Why cant he be the guy we saw take that pass from Jones against TB and take it 75 yards to the house leaving all their DBs in the dust more often When not injured he tends to get open right around the time the pressure gets to the qb because of shit O line play.. Notice when the line has been even just decent he has good games..
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Post by Fletch842 on Apr 19, 2020 7:13:47 GMT -5
I know right. So inconsistent. Why cant he be the guy we saw take that pass from Jones against TB and take it 75 yards to the house leaving all their DBs in the dust more often When not injured he tends to get open right around the time the pressure gets to the qb because of shit O line play.. Notice when the line has been even just decent he has good games.. For me the lack of trust comes down to all the missed time. I just don't think we can rely on him to be on the field when we really need him. If he stayed healthy, producing like he does would make him a fan favorite.
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Post by keyofgmen on Apr 19, 2020 8:44:06 GMT -5
A lot of talk about: Speed Size Route running Cuts Separation Etc.
All good...
Can ya catch the freakin ball????
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Post by Kase1 on Apr 19, 2020 9:12:01 GMT -5
Am I the only 1 out there who is a fan of Tyler Johnson from Minnesota???
6'2 205lb Anquan Boldin clone
His calling card is crisp and precise routes and contested catches. His hands and catch radius are outstanding, he is not a burner by any means but he is VERY quick and a master route technician.
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