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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 11:39:14 GMT -5
That is the thing with PFF. Their stats are very good when talking pure stats. When they start grading guys is where I stop paying attention because they have no possible way to know what the guy was supposed to do or not. Football isn't overly complicated if you know the game. 9 times out of 10 you'll be able to understand the assignment.
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Post by PennState1 on Jun 8, 2020 15:08:36 GMT -5
Just wanted to share that I got accepted to PFF's trial team. I will grade a handful of past games to start off. Depending on how well I do, I have a chance to make it onto the full-time team by the end of June. Wish me luck πͺπΏ Good luck dude! Pursue that passion! Mad props for going after it.
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Post by IrishMike on Jun 8, 2020 16:13:14 GMT -5
That is the thing with PFF. Their stats are very good when talking pure stats. When they start grading guys is where I stop paying attention because they have no possible way to know what the guy was supposed to do or not. Football isn't overly complicated if you know the game. 9 times out of 10 you'll be able to understand the assignment. You are completely wrong there sorry. Bill Belichick said in an interview that they have a hard time when reviewing film because of all the changes made and complexity of the assignments and they are the ones calling the team. He said it's tough enough when you called the play, it's almost impossible when looking at another team because you don't know the play.
You can guess at the assignment. There is a reason why the "best player" is seldom the highest rated PFF guy. Sure at the very top it might be but after putting Aaron Donald at #1 it gets complicated. That's why people laughed when PFF had Clowney as the greatest edge defender on earth.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 18:41:01 GMT -5
Football isn't overly complicated if you know the game. 9 times out of 10 you'll be able to understand the assignment. You are completely wrong there sorry. Bill Belichick said in an interview that they have a hard time when reviewing film because of all the changes made and complexity of the assignments and they are the ones calling the team. He said it's tough enough when you called the play, it's almost impossible when looking at another team because you don't know the play.
You can guess at the assignment. There is a reason why the "best player" is seldom the highest rated PFF guy. Sure at the very top it might be but after putting Aaron Donald at #1 it gets complicated. That's why people laughed when PFF had Clowney as the greatest edge defender on earth. Ok
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Post by thetruth on Jun 8, 2020 19:18:26 GMT -5
That is the thing with PFF. Their stats are very good when talking pure stats. When they start grading guys is where I stop paying attention because they have no possible way to know what the guy was supposed to do or not. Football isn't overly complicated if you know the game. 9 times out of 10 you'll be able to understand the assignment. The folks that think its super complicated are typically the ones to have never tried to break it down and learn it.
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Post by thetruth on Jun 8, 2020 19:22:42 GMT -5
Is there any football stat or opinion that isn't subjective? All PFF does is add a layer of work on top of this subjectivity. Give context to their subjective opinion. When people freak out over their grades they're doing themselves a disservice. Nothing is conclusive, its PFF's opinion based on their own grading methodology spread across the entire league. No one is claiming their method is the end all be all. Its information, period.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 22:29:22 GMT -5
Football isn't overly complicated if you know the game. 9 times out of 10 you'll be able to understand the assignment. The folks that think its super complicated are typically the ones to have never tried to break it down and learn it.Β I totally agree
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 6:18:26 GMT -5
Football isn't overly complicated if you know the game. 9 times out of 10 you'll be able to understand the assignment. You are completely wrong there sorry. Bill Belichick said in an interview that they have a hard time when reviewing film because of all the changes made and complexity of the assignments and they are the ones calling the team. He said it's tough enough when you called the play, it's almost impossible when looking at another team because you don't know the play.
You can guess at the assignment. There is a reason why the "best player" is seldom the highest rated PFF guy. Sure at the very top it might be but after putting Aaron Donald at #1 it gets complicated. That's why people laughed when PFF had Clowney as the greatest edge defender on earth. What alternative universe did you get this Clowney tidbit from Mike? PFF has Clowney as the ...greatest edge defender on earth? According to PFF....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 10:13:38 GMT -5
You are completely wrong there sorry. Bill Belichick said in an interview that they have a hard time when reviewing film because of all the changes made and complexity of the assignments and they are the ones calling the team. He said it's tough enough when you called the play, it's almost impossible when looking at another team because you don't know the play.
You can guess at the assignment. There is a reason why the "best player" is seldom the highest rated PFF guy. Sure at the very top it might be but after putting Aaron Donald at #1 it gets complicated. That's why people laughed when PFF had Clowney as the greatest edge defender on earth. What alternative universe did you get this Clowney tidbit from Mike? PFF has Clowney as the ...greatest edge defender on earth?Β According to PFF.... Thanks for clearing that up ππΏ
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roundabout
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Post by roundabout on Jun 9, 2020 10:24:27 GMT -5
Congrats dude. Now try and manipulate some Giants players grades from the inside. I'll get Jones in the 90s in no time π
Gotta love DJ The sky's the limit for this kid....Just got through reading Bronxpinstipe latest bash of DJ SMFH...Good luck with your gig
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Post by IrishMike on Jun 9, 2020 19:53:43 GMT -5
What alternative universe did you get this Clowney tidbit from Mike? I made it up to see if you were still around. Wanted to make sure the covid didn't take you.
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Post by IrishMike on Jun 9, 2020 19:55:06 GMT -5
Football isn't overly complicated if you know the game. 9 times out of 10 you'll be able to understand the assignment. The folks that think its super complicated are typically the ones to have never tried to break it down and learn it. True I bet Bill Belichick has never tried to break down football and hasn't learned anything about it.
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Post by IrishMike on Jun 10, 2020 7:16:23 GMT -5
patriotswire.usatoday.com/2018/11/19/bill-belichick-admits-his-limitations-studying-film-challenges-accuracy-of-pro-football-focus/Some good reading. I wish you well on your new job and hope you pass their test. Please have an open mind though. It's incredibly difficult to truly judge this game without certain info. βIn terms of analytics, you get a lot of, βThis guy should have him. That guy should have him.β I know from our team, there are times when we donβt know exactly what went wrong until we sort out the play,β Belichick said on WEEI. βSo itβs impossible someone else could have known. Sometimes what it looks like is not what it is.β
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2020 9:52:50 GMT -5
patriotswire.usatoday.com/2018/11/19/bill-belichick-admits-his-limitations-studying-film-challenges-accuracy-of-pro-football-focus/Some good reading. I wish you well on your new job and hope you pass their test. Please have an open mind though. It's incredibly difficult to truly judge this game without certain info. βIn terms of analytics, you get a lot of, βThis guy should have him. That guy should have him.β I know from our team, there are times when we donβt know exactly what went wrong until we sort out the play,β Belichick said on WEEI. βSo itβs impossible someone else could have known. Sometimes what it looks like is not what it is.β I think you're missing the point. Its not about "guessing" what the other team is doing. It's breaking down "what the team has already done" Belichick's job is to guess what will happen. My job is to understand what already happened to the best of my ability. Big difference.
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Post by DandyDon on Jun 10, 2020 10:49:49 GMT -5
patriotswire.usatoday.com/2018/11/19/bill-belichick-admits-his-limitations-studying-film-challenges-accuracy-of-pro-football-focus/Some good reading. I wish you well on your new job and hope you pass their test. Please have an open mind though. It's incredibly difficult to truly judge this game without certain info. βIn terms of analytics, you get a lot of, βThis guy should have him. That guy should have him.β I know from our team, there are times when we donβt know exactly what went wrong until we sort out the play,β Belichick said on WEEI. βSo itβs impossible someone else could have known. Sometimes what it looks like is not what it is.β I think you're missing the point. Its not about "guessing" what the other team is doing. It's breaking down "what the team has already done" Belichick's job is to guess what will happen. My job is to understand what already happened to the best of my ability. Big difference. In the article, BB is not talking about guessing before hand. He's talking about looking at film afterwards, just like you do. And he's saying at times, he can't even know what happened on HIS OWN TEAMs plays until he talks to his players, because assignments are changed in the huddle or at the line when they see how the opposition is lined up.
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Post by NAVY2323(ret) on Jun 10, 2020 10:59:10 GMT -5
My issue is I like believing what I see. This is not a slight of the OP, good on you. Far too often I find PFF telling me not to believe what I see, but trust their analysis and statistics. Donβt care for that. Itβs not like this is only football. Baseball started this nonsense. Well I know you are seeing mediocrity, but do you know what his WAR is? Sorry if I will stay a dinosaur, but my standard eyeball test will remain more than enough for me.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2020 10:59:48 GMT -5
I think you're missing the point. Its not about "guessing" what the other team is doing. It's breaking down "what the team has already done" Belichick's job is to guess what will happen. My job is to understand what already happened to the best of my ability. Big difference. In the article, BB is not talking about guessing before hand. He's talking about looking at film afterwards, just like you do. And he's saying at times, he can't even know what happened on HIS OWN TEAMs plays until he talks to his players, because assignments are changed in the huddle or at the line when they see how the opposition is lined up. You're missing the point because if someone knows the game they can easily decide the correct play and who didn't do their job.. Just ask them! Why are you guys using BB as an example of how impossible it is to understand these assignments. Couldn't you find a more successful coach?
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Post by imgrate on Jun 10, 2020 12:12:33 GMT -5
My issue is I like believing what I see. This is not a slight of the OP, good on you. Far too often I find PFF telling me not to believe what I see, but trust their analysis and statistics. Donβt care for that. Itβs not like this is only football. Baseball started this nonsense. Well I know you are seeing mediocrity, but do you know what his WAR is? Sorry if I will stay a dinosaur, but my standard eyeball test will remain more than enough for me. Yep, I just like it as a relative measuring stick..especially since I dont watch every single game. Is Arizona's slot cb any good, indy's center, etc? No clue. So when I go to say one of our players is good or awful, I wouldn't have much to base it off of relatively speaking. Like if our center sucks, but 90% of the centers in the league suck, then I'm probably not going to bitch about that as much. That said, theres a ton a grey area, but the extremes are probably a good indicator. Like if PFF has someone ranked as #1 or #2 at their position for the overall season, then chances are those players are at the least pretty darn good. Likewise if they're ranked bottom 2, chances are they suck. We all know the glory positions so that might seem meaningless, but if you start thinking about other positions it helps me learn more players
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Post by IrishMike on Jun 10, 2020 13:08:26 GMT -5
patriotswire.usatoday.com/2018/11/19/bill-belichick-admits-his-limitations-studying-film-challenges-accuracy-of-pro-football-focus/Some good reading. I wish you well on your new job and hope you pass their test. Please have an open mind though. It's incredibly difficult to truly judge this game without certain info. βIn terms of analytics, you get a lot of, βThis guy should have him. That guy should have him.β I know from our team, there are times when we donβt know exactly what went wrong until we sort out the play,β Belichick said on WEEI. βSo itβs impossible someone else could have known. Sometimes what it looks like is not what it is.β I think you're missing the point. Its not about "guessing" what the other team is doing. It's breaking down "what the team has already done" Belichick's job is to guess what will happen. My job is to understand what already happened to the best of my ability. Big difference. Did you read the article or do you just like to disagree? I am genuinely happy that you got this chance. Not every day a member of this board gets a chance like that.
Bill Belichick specifically talks about trying to figure out what his own team has done and having a hard time with it and he specifically says "it's impossible someone else could have known" what someones assignment was. That's all.
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Post by IrishMike on Jun 10, 2020 13:13:11 GMT -5
Yep, I just like it as a relative measuring stick.. That's exactly what it is. It is THEIR measurement. I always say this. There are 32 NFL teams and each one will measure a player differently. It is the same when people come out with a GOAT list. You might say Tom Brady is the best because he won the most, I might say Montana is the best because he lost less SBs and someone else might have Marino because he looked like the best. The way people measure things is different.
Their stats to me are very telling and useful, their rankings are just to get clicks. Most people don't want to have to look at stats/film and make a determination they would rather just click the article "Top ten Edge players" and have someone else tell them.
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Post by thetruth on Jun 11, 2020 0:26:53 GMT -5
In the article, BB is not talking about guessing before hand. He's talking about looking at film afterwards, just like you do. And he's saying at times, he can't even know what happened on HIS OWN TEAMs plays until he talks to his players, because assignments are changed in the huddle or at the line when they see how the opposition is lined up. You're missing the point because if someone knows the game they can easily decide the correct play and who didn't do their job.. Just ask them! Why are you guys using BB as an example of how impossible it is to understand these assignments. Couldn't you find a more successful coach? Dandydon and IrishMike missing the point? You dont say. They dont want to get the point. Why bother?
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Turbo
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Post by Turbo on Jun 11, 2020 2:22:21 GMT -5
I think one of the questions I have is based on what SHOULD happen in our typical knowledge vs what the call ACTUALLY was. For example:
Say that on a particular play we see a Guard block a certain player. We know that when this type of play is typically run you are not supposed to block that certain player. You are supposed to block a different player. It's obvious. It's what always happens when this type of play is run. It's what we see in Pop Warner, HS, NCAA, and certainly in the pros. Except...on this particular play he blocked correctly because that is what he was told to do. It's a wrinkle that was put in. The play was supposed to end in a different way than it did, but the block in and of itself was correct.
There is no way to know this as a PFF grader. The opposing team wouldn't know it nor would the opposing coach. No one would know it that was not on the team. Yet we gig the Guard for that block?
I understand that this could be the missing 10% that was mentioned, but I wonder if this is the case. There are literally hundreds of these types of things in any given game. Option routes, QB/receiver cues we don't know about, audibles, and any number of other things.
I like PFF. I think they are a valuable bit of info for the fans that don't have time to examine these types of nuances (like me!). I just wonder if what we see and what we think we see are always the same thing. I have to think that the game is a bit more complicated than we think. If it was pretty basic in understanding then you would rarely see blown coverages, missed assignments, wrong routes, etc. These guys eat, breathe, and sleep this stuff and have for years. They get paid millions for being right, yet they often are not.
I have graduate degrees in statistics. There is always a big debate at work between those using quantitative analysis and those using qualitative analysis. PFF is trying to marry the two in a subjective way that makes the error term huge. The best that can really be said is "If the play I am watching was run based on what I think was supposed to happen then I can get a fairly good analysis. If things were actually different than what I think, however, then all bets are off."
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 7:01:52 GMT -5
You're missing the point because if someone knows the game they can easily decide the correct play and who didn't do their job.. Just ask them! Why are you guys using BB as an example of how impossible it is to understand these assignments. Couldn't you find a more successful coach? Dandydon and IrishMike missing the point? You dont say. They dont want to get the point. Why bother? Thanks for the attempt and I see you have your needed support for it.. The morning humor is nice!
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Post by Sarcasman on Jun 11, 2020 9:42:20 GMT -5
You're missing the point because if someone knows the game they can easily decide the correct play and who didn't do their job.. Just ask them! Why are you guys using BB as an example of how impossible it is to understand these assignments. Couldn't you find a more successful coach? Dandydon and IrishMike missing the point? You dont say. They dont want to get the point. Why bother? Argue the content folks, although there are differences of opinion on the value of these data, thats all it is. We do not make it about individual posters.
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Post by DandyDon on Jun 11, 2020 10:58:49 GMT -5
You're missing the point because if someone knows the game they can easily decide the correct play and who didn't do their job.. Just ask them! Why are you guys using BB as an example of how impossible it is to understand these assignments. Couldn't you find a more successful coach? Dandydon and IrishMike missing the point? You dont say. They dont want to get the point. Why bother? At least we dont idiotically name ourselves "The Truth." Without apparently knowing that was the nickname of a famous NFL player.
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Post by thetruth on Jun 11, 2020 12:01:17 GMT -5
Dandydon and IrishMike missing the point? You dont say. They dont want to get the point. Why bother? Argue the content folks, although there are differences of opinion on the value of these data, thats all it is. We do not make it about individual posters. There's nothing personal in nature from my perspective. They'll be the first to tell you they dont care to understand how PFF works or they would have tried it by now. Some folks are open to understanding the merits of something they may not understand; others, not so much. Its not "bad" or "good". Is what it is.
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Post by thetruth on Jun 11, 2020 12:02:06 GMT -5
Dandydon and IrishMike missing the point? You dont say. They dont want to get the point. Why bother? At least we dont idiotically name ourselves "The Truth." Without apparently knowing that was the nickname of a famous NFL player.
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Post by McCherry on Jun 11, 2020 12:21:04 GMT -5
patriotswire.usatoday.com/2018/11/19/bill-belichick-admits-his-limitations-studying-film-challenges-accuracy-of-pro-football-focus/Some good reading. I wish you well on your new job and hope you pass their test. Please have an open mind though. It's incredibly difficult to truly judge this game without certain info. βIn terms of analytics, you get a lot of, βThis guy should have him. That guy should have him.β I know from our team, there are times when we donβt know exactly what went wrong until we sort out the play,β Belichick said on WEEI. βSo itβs impossible someone else could have known. Sometimes what it looks like is not what it is.β I think you're missing the point. Its not about "guessing" what the other team is doing. It's breaking down "what the team has already done" Belichick's job is to guess what will happen. My job is to understand what already happened to the best of my ability. Big difference. Gunner do you currently have access to any film archives? Do you get to analyze film from last year for practice purposes?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 14:06:19 GMT -5
I think you're missing the point. Its not about "guessing" what the other team is doing. It's breaking down "what the team has already done" Belichick's job is to guess what will happen. My job is to understand what already happened to the best of my ability. Big difference. Gunner do you currently have access to any film archives? Do you get to analyze film from last year for practice purposes? Right now, only if assigned to me. I'm currently working on Michigan vs. Wisconsin (2019). If I make the full-time team I will have access to the full archive.
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Post by lt56 on Jun 11, 2020 14:09:48 GMT -5
Congrats and Good Luck!
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