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Post by IrishMike on May 28, 2021 11:51:32 GMT -5
My real hope is that they do well enough in the run game to make Barkley a real threat and that sucks up the D for the play action. IMO that is how our deep game would be most effective. Sure John Ross can run past any defender in the league, but if the Safety is 20 yards down the field already it doesn't matter. It's not how modern NFL offenses work these days Until teams are frightened of our deep weapons they will clog the short area... It's not rum it into a brick wall a bunch of times before you try to pass it league Even the Titans passed vertical to open up lanes for Henry last year Now with that said it will be interesting how much respect Golladay gets early...maybe design deep passes to Slayton to take advantage of a lesser corner on him one on one if Golliday is bracketed... If teams fear our weapons there will be far less players in tbe box than we have become used to since the Odell trade .....which also makes it easier for the O line... Also quick hitters/missle screens to Toney will slow down pass rush as well I disagree in part. Yes the passing game opens up the running game but the threat of the running game still opens up the deep passing game. I'm not saying run into the brick wall over and over but if Barkley is a THREAT to run it well then teams will have to suck the safety's up towards the line and not just play two deep.
It works both ways. Last year was a great example of us not having a receiving threat so teams just crowded the box to stop the run. Balance is always the key.
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Post by IrishMike on May 28, 2021 11:53:00 GMT -5
My real hope is that they do well enough in the run game to make Barkley a real threat and that sucks up the D for the play action. IMO that is how our deep game would be most effective. Sure John Ross can run past any defender in the league, but if the Safety is 20 yards down the field already it doesn't matter.If our line can open holes and DC does that . We will run the ball down their throat Of course we will. If the OL opens holes for Barkley like they did for Gallman last year there is no way they can keep 2 safety's deep. Barkley is way too dangerous. |
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Post by IrishMike on May 28, 2021 11:56:44 GMT -5
My real hope is that they do well enough in the run game to make Barkley a real threat and that sucks up the D for the play action. IMO that is how our deep game would be most effective. Sure John Ross can run past any defender in the league, but if the Safety is 20 yards down the field already it doesn't matter. You don’t need a running game to use play action. Debunked is recent years. Everybody should be using play action on a regular basis no matter what your running game is. It actually works best the opposite way where PA and the passing attack opens things up for the run Debunked? You need the threat of a running game for PA to work. No you don't need to run it for 100 yards a game but if your running game is trash then the D will have no reason to worry about your play action. This is why when teams are ahead late suddenly the play action is not effective.
Now we are seeing lots of teams disguising what they are doing by using the PA, which can work because the D isn't clued into what the O is doing but a threatening running game makes PA effective on another level.
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Post by McCherry on May 28, 2021 12:14:32 GMT -5
My real hope is that they do well enough in the run game to make Barkley a real threat and that sucks up the D for the play action. IMO that is how our deep game would be most effective. Sure John Ross can run past any defender in the league, but if the Safety is 20 yards down the field already it doesn't matter. . Everybody should be using play action on a regular basis no matter what your running game is. It actually works best the opposite way where PA and the passing attack opens things up for the run 100% not true. The 2019 Giants were a clear example of how play action is entirely dependent on the running game. Our entire offense was pretty much sunk with the loss of Barkley and problems blocking up front. |
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Post by giantlegacy on May 28, 2021 12:23:23 GMT -5
You don’t need a running game to use play action. Debunked is recent years. Everybody should be using play action on a regular basis no matter what your running game is. It actually works best the opposite way where PA and the passing attack opens things up for the run 100% not true. The 2019 Giants were a clear example of how play action is entirely dependent on the running game. Our entire offense was pretty much sunk with the loss of Barkley and problems blocking up front. It was also sunk because teams had zero respect for our pathetic excuse for weapons. If anything Jones being a threat with RPO was what opened up a few things (which is also problematic if your QB is your threat on the ground like this ) |
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Post by Martin on May 28, 2021 13:16:28 GMT -5
If the secondary is not scared of your passing game taking the top off them they have a big advantage. There gonna play everything in front of them and they will put more people closer to the box (or in the box) which makes it harder for the intermediate passing game. When you add in a running game issue Oline / RB etc... you just compounded the problem. This year I see the skies opening up, mainly the playbook.
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Post by Jomo on May 28, 2021 16:11:48 GMT -5
Put John Ross on the field with Toney at certain times and the opposing secondary with all our other weapons have a lot to think about. Martin ya know we have a lot of combo's. Not only Ross and Toney but Goloday and Slayton as well. You could even throw engram in there. Our OL must hold up to give Jones 4 seconds to throw deep. But this offense has pieces this year. It's up to Jones and the OL. If they can improve and step up the sky is the limit. But I think I'm at the point till I see it then I'll believe it. So many things have gone wrong the last 8 years or so. But this is the first time in 4 years I'm actually cautiously optimistic as they say. you were on a roll TGR until you had to mention Engram. Just kidding, we could be very explosive. |
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Post by Sarcasman on May 28, 2021 16:18:44 GMT -5
I think the point that he was trying to make was that you choose a number based on Daniel Jones' stats that would allow you to only disqualify and criticize him. An if that's the main critique, then let's make it 50 deep pass attempts we know that 8 QBs on that top-10 list have a minimum of 50 deep pass attempts, that way there's no rational argument that can be made that the number that was chosen was based on any particular player, but on the minimum threshold that a majority on that top-10 list were able to clear. When comparing Daniel Jones stats to Aaron Rodgers for example who's ranked #4, no one can honestly by looking at just the stats not next gen analytics, make an argument that he's a better deep passer than Aaron Rodgers. Daniel Jones Aaron RodgersDeep Completions: 19 31
Deep Attempts: 39 74
Yards: 636 1,219
TD: 5 12 INT: 0 0 That’s the thing.. I’m ridiculing the whole thing. Daniel Jones just happens to have the least amount of pass attempts to the rest of his peers. To make it a fair debate, you have to give it a number of pass attempts that compares to the rest of the league. It’s like saying Odell Beckham has the all time quarterback rating in league history. Granted it's not the unmitigated colon blow I usually dump all over the contrived advanced football stats business, but this still brought a tear to my eye.  |
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Post by snyder55 on May 28, 2021 16:23:25 GMT -5
just one more thought about our offense this year, what if Engram shows up and catches the ball..
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Post by Kruunch on May 28, 2021 16:37:15 GMT -5
That’s the thing.. I’m ridiculing the whole thing. Daniel Jones just happens to have the least amount of pass attempts to the rest of his peers. To make it a fair debate, you have to give it a number of pass attempts that compares to the rest of the league. It’s like saying Odell Beckham has the all time quarterback rating in league history. Granted it's not the unmitigated colon blow I usually dump all over the contrived advanced football stats business, but this still brought a tear to my eye. I always had a hunch that you were Native American.. Now, I have the urge to throw garbage out of a moving vehicle. |
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te88
Special Teams
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Post by te88 on May 28, 2021 16:52:26 GMT -5
You don’t need a running game to use play action. Debunked is recent years. Everybody should be using play action on a regular basis no matter what your running game is. It actually works best the opposite way where PA and the passing attack opens things up for the run 100% not true. The 2019 Giants were a clear example of how play action is entirely dependent on the running game. Our entire offense was pretty much sunk with the loss of Barkley and problems blocking up front. Your quarrel isn’t with me. It is well established analytical fact. PA has taken over the NFL. There is no statistical link between the running game and the effectiveness of PA. The mantra of needing to “establish the run” to use PA is pure baloney |
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Post by Sarcasman on May 28, 2021 22:00:01 GMT -5
Granted it's not the unmitigated colon blow I usually dump all over the contrived advanced football stats business, but this still brought a tear to my eye. I always had a hunch that you were Native American.. Now, I have the urge to throw garbage out of a moving vehicle. Pretty close; black Irish. |
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Post by giantlegacy on May 28, 2021 22:03:39 GMT -5
That’s the thing.. I’m ridiculing the whole thing. Daniel Jones just happens to have the least amount of pass attempts to the rest of his peers. To make it a fair debate, you have to give it a number of pass attempts that compares to the rest of the league. It’s like saying Odell Beckham has the all time quarterback rating in league history. Granted it's not the unmitigated colon blow I usually dump all over the contrived advanced football stats business, but this still brought a tear to my eye. . Your face when you are fired from being team formerly known as the Redskins' mascot |
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te88
Special Teams
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Post by te88 on May 29, 2021 10:26:17 GMT -5
You don’t need a running game to use play action. Debunked is recent years. Everybody should be using play action on a regular basis no matter what your running game is. It actually works best the opposite way where PA and the passing attack opens things up for the run Debunked? You need the threat of a running game for PA to work. No you don't need to run it for 100 yards a game but if your running game is trash then the D will have no reason to worry about your play action. This is why when teams are ahead late suddenly the play action is not effective.
Now we are seeing lots of teams disguising what they are doing by using the PA, which can work because the D isn't clued into what the O is doing but a threatening running game makes PA effective on another level.
Play action still works with a poor rushing attack. It just does. There are a lot of discussions about this you can tap into. Teams are using PA almost all the time these days. Of course any part of your O being effective makes the other part better. But a rushing attack is not a prerequisite for PA. PA should be used almost constantly, and is. |
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te88
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Post by te88 on May 29, 2021 10:29:19 GMT -5
You don’t need a running game to use play action. Debunked is recent years. Everybody should be using play action on a regular basis no matter what your running game is. It actually works best the opposite way where PA and the passing attack opens things up for the run Debunked? You need the threat of a running game for PA to work. No you don't need to run it for 100 yards a game but if your running game is trash then the D will have no reason to worry about your play action. This is why when teams are ahead late suddenly the play action is not effective.
Now we are seeing lots of teams disguising what they are doing by using the PA, which can work because the D isn't clued into what the O is doing but a threatening running game makes PA effective on another level.
Just one of bazillions of articles on this topic: www.google.ca/amp/s/ftw.usatoday.com/2019/06/nfl-establish-the-run-play-action-pass-stats/ampIt is very interesting to look into I recommend reading up on it. Lots of good articles and info out there |
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Post by giantlegacy on May 29, 2021 10:32:22 GMT -5
Debunked? You need the threat of a running game for PA to work. No you don't need to run it for 100 yards a game but if your running game is trash then the D will have no reason to worry about your play action. This is why when teams are ahead late suddenly the play action is not effective.
Now we are seeing lots of teams disguising what they are doing by using the PA, which can work because the D isn't clued into what the O is doing but a threatening running game makes PA effective on another level.
Play action still works with a poor rushing attack. It just does. There are a lot of discussions about this you can tap into. Teams are using PA almost all the time these days. Of course any part of your O being effective makes the other part better. But a rushing attack is not a prerequisite for PA. PA should be used almost constantly, and is. RPO out of shotgun is basically PA in this era ...only adding another element of "what is he going to do " with the Qube keeping it and taking off Ans Jones indeed has established himself to ths point any RPO is going to freeze the lbs.... The days of lining up under center with a fullback in a 21 and running it on first and 2nd down to establish the run are long gone |
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te88
Special Teams
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Post by te88 on May 29, 2021 10:35:06 GMT -5
Play action still works with a poor rushing attack. It just does. There are a lot of discussions about this you can tap into. Teams are using PA almost all the time these days. Of course any part of your O being effective makes the other part better. But a rushing attack is not a prerequisite for PA. PA should be used almost constantly, and is. RPO out of shotgun is basically PA in this era ...only adding another element of "what is he going to do " with the Qube keeping it and taking off Ans Jones indeed has established himself to ths point any RPO is going to freeze the lbs.... The days of lining up under center with a fullback in a 21 and running it on first and 2nd down to establish the run are long gone Most TV people call “RPOs” these days have always been play action. A true RPO there is actually an option...PAs are fakes right from the beginning. But yes that is correct. PA is just good sense for so many different plays. You don’t need to establish anything as a precondition for using it |
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Post by Jomo on May 29, 2021 10:58:54 GMT -5
Debunked? You need the threat of a running game for PA to work. No you don't need to run it for 100 yards a game but if your running game is trash then the D will have no reason to worry about your play action. This is why when teams are ahead late suddenly the play action is not effective.
Now we are seeing lots of teams disguising what they are doing by using the PA, which can work because the D isn't clued into what the O is doing but a threatening running game makes PA effective on another level.
Play action still works with a poor rushing attack. It just does. There are a lot of discussions about this you can tap into. Teams are using PA almost all the time these days. Of course any part of your O being effective makes the other part better. But a rushing attack is not a prerequisite for PA. PA should be used almost constantly, and is. If you get a linebacker to bite just a half step or split second because of PA, it opens passing windows considerably. |
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Post by McCherry on May 29, 2021 11:06:30 GMT -5
Play action still works with a poor rushing attack. It just does. There are a lot of discussions about this you can tap into. Teams are using PA almost all the time these days. Of course any part of your O being effective makes the other part better. But a rushing attack is not a prerequisite for PA. PA should be used almost constantly, and is. If you get a linebacker to bite just a half step or split second because of PA, it opens passing windows considerably. Having Barkley on the field has an enormous impact on this and the way a defense has to approach us. |
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Post by IrishMike on May 29, 2021 13:33:57 GMT -5
Play action still works with a poor rushing attack. It just does. There are a lot of discussions about this you can tap into. Teams are using PA almost all the time these days. Of course any part of your O being effective makes the other part better. But a rushing attack is not a prerequisite for PA. PA should be used almost constantly, and is. You are misunderstanding what I am saying though. I'm talking about the threat of the running game. He says in the article there is no correlation between running success and play action %; however there is a correlation between # of running plays and play action. Meaning teams that simply run the ball more (regardless of success) run more play action. If you never actually run the ball your play action becomes meaningless (his charts reflect this). It's hard to run a lot when your rushing attack is trash.
The issue is some of his charts are simply talking about play action % (how many times they run a play action play), not talking about success.
Either way he makes a great point in the article I think we both can agree on. If you run the ball a bunch, it opens up the play action; if you run play action a bunch it opens up the run game. The entire point of play action (or RPO or misdirection ect) is to keep the D off balance and make them hesitate.
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Post by IrishMike on May 29, 2021 13:37:39 GMT -5
just one more thought about our offense this year, what if Engram shows up and catches the ball.. Lombardi Trophy and Jones is the MVP. |
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Post by allnygin on May 29, 2021 20:07:12 GMT -5
I think the point that he was trying to make was that you choose a number based on Daniel Jones' stats that would allow you to only disqualify and criticize him. An if that's the main critique, then let's make it 50 deep pass attempts we know that 8 QBs on that top-10 list have a minimum of 50 deep pass attempts, that way there's no rational argument that can be made that the number that was chosen was based on any particular player, but on the minimum threshold that a majority on that top-10 list were able to clear. When comparing Daniel Jones stats to Aaron Rodgers for example who's ranked #4, no one can honestly by looking at just the stats not next gen analytics, make an argument that he's a better deep passer than Aaron Rodgers. Daniel Jones Aaron RodgersDeep Completions: 19 31
Deep Attempts: 39 74
Yards: 636 1,219
TD: 5 12 INT: 0 0 That’s the thing.. I’m ridiculing the whole thing. Daniel Jones just happens to have the least amount of pass attempts to the rest of his peers. To make it a fair debate, you have to give it a number of pass attempts that compares to the rest of the league. It’s like saying Odell Beckham has the all time quarterback rating in league history. Great point, I see so many people who talk sports in person and on social media spew out stats without really considering what it actually means. |
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Post by GameTime on May 30, 2021 7:15:50 GMT -5
the Giants offense isnt a threat in any catagory yet. everybody CTFD....  |
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2021 7:19:30 GMT -5
I don’t see a problem with our WRs being dangerous….especially since we dumped Tate. But the one true issue is Jones having to improve on his accuracy throwing downfield. I remember it being an issue the past couple seasons. An issue that he hasn’t conquered yet. But some blame route running. I don’t know. |
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2021 7:21:41 GMT -5
PFF has a knack of explaining meaningless stats. Our offense was embarrassing last year, but Jones is one of the best deep passers in the league? How is that possible? Look at their top 10 list. Out of all the quarterbacks, Jones has the least amount of pass attempts at 39. The second closest to him is Mayfield at 47. You would think they would at least put a minimum to 40-50 passes. Leave it to PFF to find a silver lining in a Tsunami.. It wasn't even PFF who made the analysis. Jones was also 5th overall in the deep passing category in 2019. That’s kind of strange considering the deep ball issues. |
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Post by TEM on May 30, 2021 8:47:42 GMT -5
We are not a deep threat team . We have been a screen pass to short pass team . And not just last year. It has been that way for a while.  The entire NFL is a short pass league . But stasticaly we do not rely on the one punch play to set the tone for our offense. The 20 yard + play is less than 10% of the passes thrown in the entire league . But they do look good on Youtube and highlights for sports media. In reality the NFl itself is not set to be a deep threat passing league. It is that pesky little Stat ; Most sacks occur between the 2 and 2.5 seconds mark after the snap. There just is not enough time to allow Deep plays to develop with consistency. In the under ware Olympics. 4.5 is an average 40 time for a WR. . Put pads on add 2 tenths of a second. (4.7). Half of 4.7 (20 yards) is 2.35 seconds. That is the time your QB is hearing footsteps or getting wacked.. Anyone that believes we are going to be a deep ball offence or threat. Come back to reality. |
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Post by GameTime on May 30, 2021 9:17:56 GMT -5
We are not a deep threat team . We have been a screen pass to short pass team . And not just last year. It has been that way for a while. The entire NFL is a short pass league . But stasticaly we do not rely on the one punch play to set the tone for our offense. The 20 yard + play is less than 10% of the passes thrown in the entire league . But they do look good on Youtube and highlights for sports media. In reality the NFl itself is not set to be a deep threat passing league. It is that pesky little Stat ; Most sacks occur between the 2 and 2.5 seconds mark after the snap. There just is not enough time to allow Deep plays to develop with consistency. Anyone that believes we are going to be a deep ball offence or threat. Come back to reality. I guess most OLs suck then....(not bashing your post at all just using it as vehicle for my comment) |
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Post by TEM on May 30, 2021 9:21:57 GMT -5
We are not a deep threat team . We have been a screen pass to short pass team . And not just last year. It has been that way for a while. The entire NFL is a short pass league . But stasticaly we do not rely on the one punch play to set the tone for our offense. The 20 yard + play is less than 10% of the passes thrown in the entire league . But they do look good on Youtube and highlights for sports media. In reality the NFl itself is not set to be a deep threat passing league. It is that pesky little Stat ; Most sacks occur between the 2 and 2.5 seconds mark after the snap. There just is not enough time to allow Deep plays to develop with consistency. Anyone that believes we are going to be a deep ball offence or threat. Come back to reality. I guess most OLs suck then....(not bashing your post at all just using it as vehicle for my comment) That is what the NFL stats say. This passing data further confirms it. There is a finite amount of time to throw the ball and and a receiver can only run so fast. |
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Post by GameTime on May 30, 2021 9:30:11 GMT -5
I guess most OLs suck then....(not bashing your post at all just using it as vehicle for my comment) That is what the NFL stats say. This passing data further confirms it. There is a finite amount of time to throw the ball and and a receiver can only run so fast. which makes it so important to when a QB has time has has to make big plays. Also another reason QB need to "make time". |
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Post by TEM on May 30, 2021 10:08:28 GMT -5
That is what the NFL stats say. This passing data further confirms it. There is a finite amount of time to throw the ball and and a receiver can only run so fast. which makes it so important to when a QB has time has has to make big plays. Also another reason QB need to "make time". Even if it is a split second. But the passing stats show that is more often they can't. It could be stasticaly the Coaching staff understands that, it is not obtainable enough to be be a active part of a primary aspect of a game plan . Are they going to send a post and a go route as part of their overall scheme yes. Are they using it a primary source to conduct offensive planning. The stats suggest no. It shows the low risk high % of success short passes are what OCs around the league use as their primary attack in passing. |
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