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Post by TCHOF on Jun 25, 2021 12:51:35 GMT -5
Disagree that the Giants were caught flat-footed. They immediately pivoted to a trade-back and picked up extra draft capital. One of the best moves made by Gettleman as GM. Read my post. Flat footed or not, my post has three main points: (1) I don't think the giants had sufficient scouting on the next tier of WRs, (2) I loved the trade down and (3) I thought the pick they did use could have been used in a different area. Time will tell who is correct on my point #1 and if the Bateman or Moore (s) are more successful but there are a lot of factors that influence that judgment including system, opportunity, quality of the qb etc. I have no inside info just a hunch based on who they picked. On #2 we agree On #3 I still to this day feel that at that range of the first round would Darrisaw or Paye for example provide more of an impact on the field than Toney? We'll never know the answer to this one as it is firmly in the fantasy land of what ifs. On what basis do you say that the Giants didn’t have sufficient scouting on the next tier of WR’s? Just because you don’t like the pick doesn’t mean that the scouting was insufficient. It actually sounds like they did quite a bit of work on Toney. Whether he was the correct pick or not, that is another question |
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Post by SG88 on Jun 25, 2021 12:54:48 GMT -5
Read my post. Flat footed or not, my post has three main points: (1) I don't think the giants had sufficient scouting on the next tier of WRs, (2) I loved the trade down and (3) I thought the pick they did use could have been used in a different area. Time will tell who is correct on my point #1 and if the Bateman or Moore (s) are more successful but there are a lot of factors that influence that judgment including system, opportunity, quality of the qb etc. I have no inside info just a hunch based on who they picked. On #2 we agree On #3 I still to this day feel that at that range of the first round would Darrisaw or Paye for example provide more of an impact on the field than Toney? We'll never know the answer to this one as it is firmly in the fantasy land of what ifs. On what basis do you say that the Giants didn’t have sufficient scouting on the next tier of WR’s? Just because you don’t like the pick doesn’t mean that the scouting was insufficient. It actually sounds like they did quite a bit of work on Toney. Whether he was the correct pick or not, that is another question Exactly. We won't know the answer to that question for 3 years let alone in June before he has even played a single down. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2021 13:07:48 GMT -5
It's funny. For years people, especially on here, have complained about the Giants being way too old school and not with the modern times. What you just described is the picture perfect modern WR. The guy that lines up all over, gets the ball on jet sweeps and screens and hand offs ect. A guy our coaches can get creative with. Now people complain lmao.
I agree with everyone saying the kid isn't a project. He is inexperienced for sure. This is for me what gets me excited. He has not even scratched the surface of what he can be with proper coaching and time.
Bingo (something as you have seen I've been preaching for years ) It's obvious this was the type of dynamic playmaker we were looking for in the draft and zeroed in on a few (Waddle I think was the target and Smith the smokescreen ) We got our big bodied outside guy in FA..we have a prototypical take the top off guy opposite him Toney fits the modern X factor playmaker hole He doesn't have to be a 100% finished product this year to be part of a highly explosive offense this year especially if the line takes the next stsp,Golladay is pre 2020 Golladay and Slayton his near his ceiling (.a 65- 75 catch 1000 yard type year)and Barkley regains 95% of his form)
You are asking a lot here and to be realistic if these things do happen then Toney wouldn't really be needed any ways.. |
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Post by giantlegacy on Jun 25, 2021 13:53:04 GMT -5
Bingo (something as you have seen I've been preaching for years ) It's obvious this was the type of dynamic playmaker we were looking for in the draft and zeroed in on a few (Waddle I think was the target and Smith the smokescreen ) We got our big bodied outside guy in FA..we have a prototypical take the top off guy opposite him Toney fits the modern X factor playmaker hole He doesn't have to be a 100% finished product this year to be part of a highly explosive offense this year especially if the line takes the next stsp,Golladay is pre 2020 Golladay and Slayton his near his ceiling (.a 65- 75 catch 1000 yard type year)and Barkley regains 95% of his form)
You are asking a lot here and to be realistic if these things do happen then Toney wouldn't really be needed any ways.. Why wouldn't he be needed? Why purposely tie one hand behind your back? Having a guy like this on the field also helps open up all the other things to make this offense a nightmare to try to defend He brings another element to the team you don't have with Shepard |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 25, 2021 14:06:20 GMT -5
I didn't watch him in college as I usually avoid Florida games but I am also reluctant to make a conclusion based on a highlight video on youtube. While the extra curricular activities may be warning signs it is too early to tell. The dude raps, so what? I honestly think that once the Eagles jumped ahead to grab Smith, the Giants were caught flatfooted and didn't have sufficient scouting on the next level of WRs. Before the draft they were a lock to get Waddle or Smith. I love the trade to move down to pick up the extra 1 next year. What they did with this pick though is questionable. This guy was at Florida 4 years and only had one impactful year. There were other more polished receivers available not to mention impact players who could improve the line potentially right away vs a WR 3 or WR4. there is no way the NYGs did not have Toney ranked on their board. They may have been surprised by the Smith steal by Philthy but they have their board set and players value ranked. They had him ranked for sure, he was probably somewhere 15 to 20 Daniel Jeremiah had him just out of the top 10 and thought he could be a match up nightmare, the biggest knock on him was he is to willing to take on and seek out contact leading to injuries. His production was stunted a bit he changed positions from QB to WR, if hushed is on straight there is no reason he can't be a big time playmaker |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 25, 2021 14:14:48 GMT -5
Read my post. Flat footed or not, my post has three main points: (1) I don't think the giants had sufficient scouting on the next tier of WRs, (2) I loved the trade down and (3) I thought the pick they did use could have been used in a different area. Time will tell who is correct on my point #1 and if the Bateman or Moore (s) are more successful but there are a lot of factors that influence that judgment including system, opportunity, quality of the qb etc. I have no inside info just a hunch based on who they picked. On #2 we agree On #3 I still to this day feel that at that range of the first round would Darrisaw or Paye for example provide more of an impact on the field than Toney? We'll never know the answer to this one as it is firmly in the fantasy land of what ifs. Two other teams, Packers and Jags, publicly mentioned they were hoping for Toney, and teams pretty much never divulge information like that. So we couldn't have been that bad at scouting. Toney was looked at as a first rounder out side the top 10 his production through his career was stunted because he went to Florida as a QB and changed his position , they got 1 st and a 4 th next year a 5th this year plus Toney and traded down got a 3 rd next year and Ojulari who was highly regarded as the best pass rusher in the class by many including our lads. your right he was probably drafted about where he was slotted he isn't a top 10 or 15 pick he was pick # 20. this is one of better drafts in years this team has had, they all have to prove it on the field of course but fundamentally this was as solid as it gets. |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 25, 2021 14:24:46 GMT -5
I didn't watch him in college as I usually avoid Florida games but I am also reluctant to make a conclusion based on a highlight video on youtube. While the extra curricular activities may be warning signs it is too early to tell. The dude raps, so what? I honestly think that once the Eagles jumped ahead to grab Smith, the Giants were caught flatfooted and didn't have sufficient scouting on the next level of WRs. Before the draft they were a lock to get Waddle or Smith. I love the trade to move down to pick up the extra 1 next year. What they did with this pick though is questionable. This guy was at Florida 4 years and only had one impactful year. There were other more polished receivers available not to mention impact players who could improve the line potentially right away vs a WR 3 or WR4. Giants were not caught flatfooted...this was actually quite an easy draft to be ready for. You had 3 WR's, a TE, 2 OL, 2 corners and...QB's. Take off Parsons and the character concerns, and only so many combinations for the password at 11. The Giants had Slater, Vera-Tucker and as we all know, lower graded wide outs, and edge rushers. They were offered picks next year to drop into that range...not only not flat footed, but the best prepared, and executed draft Gettleman had by far. They even continued that in the 2nd round, the value of players left on their board suggested another trade back...prepared and executed. I think this is one of the better drafts they have had in years when I say that I mean at least 15 or more years, fundamentally they got everything they were looking for and a pretty good haul counting getting that 3rd from Miami next year, two 1st two 3rds and two 4ths jam packed draft being several kids stayed for one more year they were given that opportunity because of covid. With all that they came away with Toney/ Ojulari/ Robinson / Smith a nice developmental kid just a nice draft surface. |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 25, 2021 14:28:29 GMT -5
Giants were not caught flatfooted...this was actually quite an easy draft to be ready for. You had 3 WR's, a TE, 2 OL, 2 corners and...QB's. Take off Parsons and the character concerns, and only so many combinations for the password at 11. The Giants had Slater, Vera-Tucker and as we all know, lower graded wide outs, and edge rushers. They were offered picks next year to drop into that range...not only not flat footed, but the best prepared, and executed draft Gettleman had by far. They even continued that in the 2nd round, the value of players left on their board suggested another trade back...prepared and executed. I actually think they were trading back even if Smith fell to us And I'll repeat it seems Waddle was the guy they really wanted and the type of playmaker they were looking for because the one player many compared to Waddle was Toney ... If they were going to just take the best reciever on ths board regardless of type it would have been Bateman,which would have been really redundant with Golladay and Slayton as projected starters As of June 25th 2021 they played the draft as good as you can He'll it looked like one of our drafts we would make with how well they played the board I think this is the kind of playmaker they were looking for to compliment the other weapons he can hurt a defense in a lot of different ways was a QB also Taysom Hill anyone. |
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Post by nyg2 on Jun 25, 2021 14:43:31 GMT -5
He doesn't drop the ball and he was arguably the shiftiest WR prospect in the draft. Sure it'll take him sometime to develop his route tree, but as long as Garrett can figure out ways to get him the ball I think he will have a great rookie year. We brought Golladay in to be our #1, so he'll benefit from not having to face opposing teams top corner which should help his confidence as well.
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Post by Jomo on Jun 25, 2021 14:51:21 GMT -5
Is it possible that we weren't adequately prepared for the chance that our first choice wouldn't be there?
It seems to defy logic but if this guy goes Diva on us before training camp it would be a major screw up for the GM and HC who preach nothing but "team first."
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Post by snyder55 on Jun 25, 2021 15:10:01 GMT -5
Gotta love it when players are written off in the middle of June. The author said no such thing. Did you actually read the article? And for the record.. No one has written off the kid. His intelligence is in question for good reason. Everything else is at a wait and see approach. unfortunately the intelligence question comes up far too many times with some of these young college draftees, it wasn't too long ago when if someone graduated college he was a smart person with practically a guaranteed future and for most thats still true but far too many these days make you wonder how they even got out of high school, or grammar school for that matter..  |
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Post by IrishMike on Jun 25, 2021 17:27:32 GMT -5
I was excited about the pick. But I don’t disagree with anything in the article, besides it being a little sensationalized. Kid’s got a load of talent, but he’s raw. If you’re not a sharp route runner, you’re a project. I’m ok with that. He’ll make plays this year, but I don’t think he’ll be hugely productive, I’m ok with that too. A player doesn’t have to be all-pro in their rookie season. Well if that's how you define project then sure.
Here's the thing. According to our HC no one is ready for the NFL coming out of college. So they are all projects by your definition lol.
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Jun 25, 2021 20:38:58 GMT -5
This article is a little misleading. Is anyone really expecting Toney to be a 1,000 yard receiver his 1st year with the other weapons the team currently has on the roster? I mean, it's possible, like when ODB did it when we still had Nicks and Cruz on the roster. But I dont think anyone sees this year as when Toney takes over the offense.
The kid is definitely a weapon. And the knocks on his route running are overblown. He can make DBs look foolish out there. And his ability to make plays once he has the ball is not something you can teach.
Use the kid as a receiver, runner and returner and let him get 1,000 all purpose yards
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Post by GameTime on Jun 25, 2021 20:51:39 GMT -5
This article is a little misleading. Is anyone really expecting Toney to be a 1,000 yard receiver his 1st year with the other weapons the team currently has on the roster? I mean, it's possible, like when ODB did it when we still had Nicks and Cruz on the roster. But I dont think anyone sees this year as when Toney takes over the offense. The kid is definitely a weapon. And the knocks on his route running are overblown. He can make DBs look foolish out there. And his ability to make plays once he has the ball is not something you can teach. Use the kid as a receiver, runner and returner and let him get 1,000 all purpose yards getting many first downs in those 1K AP yards!! |
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Post by McCherry on Jun 25, 2021 22:52:21 GMT -5
I was excited about the pick. But I don’t disagree with anything in the article, besides it being a little sensationalized. Kid’s got a load of talent, but he’s raw. If you’re not a sharp route runner, you’re a project. I’m ok with that. He’ll make plays this year, but I don’t think he’ll be hugely productive, I’m ok with that too. A player doesn’t have to be all-pro in their rookie season. Well if that's how you define project then sure.
Here's the thing. According to our HC no one is ready for the NFL coming out of college. So they are all projects by your definition lol.
That's true, but some are more ready than others. I think Chase, Waddle or Smith could all reach 1000 yards this season. I do not think Toney will come close to those numbers in year 1, but he doesn't have to. |
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Post by ocgiant on Jun 25, 2021 23:11:34 GMT -5
Is it possible that we weren't adequately prepared for the chance that our first choice wouldn't be there? It seems to defy logic but if this guy goes Diva on us before training camp it would be a major screw up for the GM and HC who preach nothing but "team first." Scares them to death at this point. |
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Post by lexington11 on Jun 26, 2021 1:56:53 GMT -5
Yawn. Some of you need a hobby, oh wait, hobbies are frowned upon.
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Post by TEM on Jun 26, 2021 6:32:32 GMT -5
He isn't a project, but he isn't a typical outside WR. He will be lined up all over the field to try to get his hands on the ball in open space, a lot of times on Jet Sweeps, WR Screens or something behind the LOS. Play maker, but limited capability. He will be fun to watch if his head is on straight. It's funny. For years people, especially on here, have complained about the Giants being way too old school and not with the modern times. What you just described is the picture perfect modern WR. The guy that lines up all over, gets the ball on jet sweeps and screens and hand offs ect. A guy our coaches can get creative with. Now people complain lmao.
I agree with everyone saying the kid isn't a project. He is inexperienced for sure. This is for me what gets me excited. He has not even scratched the surface of what he can be with proper coaching and time.
He can line up in every WR position on the field. And a threat from all of them. A bit of a flake? A project is not what I see. He is not a decoy. |
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Post by TEM on Jun 26, 2021 6:41:20 GMT -5
I didn't watch him in college as I usually avoid Florida games but I am also reluctant to make a conclusion based on a highlight video on youtube. While the extra curricular activities may be warning signs it is too early to tell. The dude raps, so what? I honestly think that once the Eagles jumped ahead to grab Smith, the Giants were caught flatfooted and didn't have sufficient scouting on the next level of WRs. Before the draft they were a lock to get Waddle or Smith.I love the trade to move down to pick up the extra 1 next year. What they did with this pick though is questionable. This guy was at Florida 4 years and only had one impactful year. There were other more polished receivers available not to mention impact players who could improve the line potentially right away vs a WR 3 or WR4. There is no way they stumbled into 20. And this goes with every NFL team . Every player on their board is vetted and ranked. They knew exactly what they were doing. There is no evidence they wanted Waddle or Smith outside a bunch of unconfirmed BS. To trade down to get Toney and picks could have been their plan all along. A lot of fans had a trade down happening,. No way they were caught off guard. |
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Post by TEM on Jun 26, 2021 6:46:45 GMT -5
Well if that's how you define project then sure.
Here's the thing. According to our HC no one is ready for the NFL coming out of college. So they are all projects by your definition lol.
That's true, but some are more ready than others. I think Chase, Waddle or Smith could all reach 1000 yards this season. I do not think Toney will come close to those numbers in year 1, but he doesn't have to. DCs will have their hands full with Golliday and Shepard. It will leave the # 3 with the # 3 corner. Toney will be a mismatch. |
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Jun 26, 2021 8:02:46 GMT -5
Yawn. Some of you need a hobby, oh wait, hobbies are frowned upon. Isn't this MB a hobby? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2021 8:03:59 GMT -5
You are asking a lot here and to be realistic if these things do happen then Toney wouldn't really be needed any ways.. Why wouldn't he be needed? Why purposely tie one hand behind your back? Having a guy like this on the field also helps open up all the other things to make this offense a nightmare to try to defend He brings another element to the team you don't have with Shepard That wouldn't be a situation with one hand behind the back if all the other weapons had great years.. Toney can become a nice match up nightmare and certainly is a different element so we'll see if that actually happens..
If those other players perform as you said then I still don't think another element will be that important. Toney being on the field could cause others around him to perform better like Beckham helped Barkley..
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Jun 26, 2021 8:11:16 GMT -5
Well if that's how you define project then sure.
Here's the thing. According to our HC no one is ready for the NFL coming out of college. So they are all projects by your definition lol.
That's true, but some are more ready than others. I think Chase, Waddle or Smith could all reach 1000 yards this season. I do not think Toney will come close to those numbers in year 1, but he doesn't have to. Yeah, but is that due to them being "more ready"? Or more of a function of the teams they are playing on and the receivers already on their teams? No one really sees Waddle being a 1,000 yard receiver in his 1st year due to the presence of Parker, Gesicki and Fuller, along with Tua being the QB. Chase walks into a situation where he's reuniting with Burrow on a pass happy team, that sets the stage for his expectations, and he was drafted in the top 5, not 20. Smith is walking into a receiving room where the next option is Reagor, their rookie from last year. So, he's the defacto #1. Toney's limited expectations, to me, are more a function of the situation he's walking into. The Giants have some established weapons already on the team, they aren't expected to be a pass heavy offense and Jones hasn't been great. |
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Post by GameTime on Jun 26, 2021 8:17:57 GMT -5
Jones will have a beavey of receivers to choose from....hopefully.
But two or three will emerge as "go to" types and Toney has just as much of chance and skill to be a "go to" as any other receiver on the team.
He will quickly become a key player. Of course if his head is right and he wants it.
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Post by Nite on Jun 26, 2021 8:59:14 GMT -5
Does the Giants scouting department have magic wands? Apparently theirs is malfunctioning I think they are fine they have drafted a lot of talent and the Franchise and team are much better then it was in 2017. If they don't win this year then all bets are off but on paper they are better even last year they were sans a couple EE drops they are 7-9 or 8-8 That is true. If they win this year will be due to coaching and the players. Getty has whiffed on a fair number of picks that could have used in critical areas of need. Despite that now its all on Judge on co and the players, see what they do this year. |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 26, 2021 9:21:02 GMT -5
I think they are fine they have drafted a lot of talent and the Franchise and team are much better then it was in 2017. If they don't win this year then all bets are off but on paper they are better even last year they were sans a couple EE drops they are 7-9 or 8-8 That is true. If they win this year will be due to coaching and the players. Getty has whiffed on a fair number of picks that could have used in critical areas of need. Despite that now its all on Judge on co and the players, see what they do this year. OK lol they will win on coaching alone. Ask TC how that worked out for him and Eli Talent is a necessity, no team gets by without it. |
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Post by Nite on Jun 26, 2021 9:22:58 GMT -5
If they win this year will be due to coaching and the players. You mean the Coach's and player Dave Gettlemen has help bring here, those players and Coach's? Judge was hired by Mara. Most of the coaches were hired by Judge. A lot of the picks were influenced by Judge..
You understand? ok probably not lol
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Post by Nite on Jun 26, 2021 9:24:34 GMT -5
That is true. If they win this year will be due to coaching and the players. Getty has whiffed on a fair number of picks that could have used in critical areas of need. Despite that now its all on Judge on co and the players, see what they do this year. OK lol they will win on coaching alone. Ask TC how that worked out for him and Eli Talent is a necessity, no team gets by without it. Makes a huge difference. The right coach paired with the right players win games |
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Post by Nite on Jun 26, 2021 9:27:42 GMT -5
That is true. If they win this year will be due to coaching and the players. Getty has whiffed on a fair number of picks that could have used in critical areas of need. Despite that now its all on Judge on co and the players, see what they do this year. OK lol they will win on coaching alone. Ask TC how that worked out for him and Eli Talent is a necessity, no team gets by without it. Uhh TC with Eli won 2 SBs. I'd say that worked out quite well  |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 26, 2021 9:56:20 GMT -5
OK lol they will win on coaching alone. Ask TC how that worked out for him and Eli Talent is a necessity, no team gets by without it. Uhh TC with Eli won 2 SBs. I'd say that worked out quite well Not after 2011 the last half of Eli's career was wasted on talentless teams and it got TC sent packing actually told to resign or be sent packing It's ok Nite this doesn't bother me with Gettlemen I stay neutral that way it is easy not to let hate or dislike cloud judgement, if he gets canned they just better get someone in here thats better thats all I care about and getting this rebuild over hopefully this year. If Mara had the nuggets and did what he should have when they asked TC to step aside in 2015 they would have canned Reese Ross and anyone else who had anything to do with the destruction of the team. then maybe Maybe 3 or 4 years later 2019 or 2020 the rebuild and new coach and GM would be good to go. |
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