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Post by jb456 on Aug 11, 2021 13:21:47 GMT -5
We should wait for some live bullets to fly, I agree with him on that....as respects the starters. However, the frightening non existence of capable depth on the OL belongs to him as does the assessment in the off-season/draft that our OL was in good enough shape. He owns it lock stock and barrel just as JR owned it when he proclaimed that "the talent is there on the OL, it's up to the coaches to bring it out." Most of us can smell BS at 110 yards. I admit to now having a knot in my stomach regarding the OL. I have moved from mild concern to flat out worry. I am no Gettleman fan, but in his defense the depth was looking fine until Looney and Fulton retired. Throw in the Lemieux & Solder injuries and the Giants could soon be suiting up the towel boy. Unfortunately for him, he could be runing into a laundry list of problems.
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Post by Roosevelt on Aug 11, 2021 13:32:01 GMT -5
Interesting that our young Oline improved as the year progressed last year and you see it as mess without them even taking a snap. Losing Looney and Fulton is on Dave for sure but let’s see who he picks up before we write the book on this season. No, PFF had us ranked worst in the league. It does not matter that they played obviously better the second half of the year. Also not mattering are 3 rookies, first time C, new HC, new OC, new system, no offseason, no preseason. Those are just excuses, PFF has us as the worst. I wish I could tell you I value PFF rankings but if I did I’d be lying.
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Post by IrishMike on Aug 11, 2021 13:33:01 GMT -5
No, PFF had us ranked worst in the league. It does not matter that they played obviously better the second half of the year. Also not mattering are 3 rookies, first time C, new HC, new OC, new system, no offseason, no preseason. Those are just excuses, PFF has us as the worst. I would fully expect that an offensive line with 3 rookies and a first year starter at a new position would rank at the bottom, or even last. Improvement is the only thing I'm looking for. Not an overall grade skewed by the first part of the season. I honestly don't care about "improvement" I just want wins. If the line plays just like they did the second half of the year, we run the ball down the opponents throats and our WRs/TEs that we added create a better passing attack we will get wins and I'll be happy. IMO the OL the second half of the year wasn't as bad as people make it seem.
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Post by IrishMike on Aug 11, 2021 13:34:45 GMT -5
I wish I could tell you I value PFF rankings but if I did I’d be lying. Me too. I enjoy and appreciate all their advanced analytics but their rankings are an opinion that is no more valid than mine or yours.
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Aug 11, 2021 13:37:27 GMT -5
He deserves every bit of criticism for this mess of an O line. Maybe I should start posting articles discussing how bad the O line was last year as a reminder as to why DG gets criticized as often as he does. Why aren't the coaches responsible also? I think the lack of a good OL coach has been our issue more than anything else. We should have hit on 1 good olineman by this point between Reese and Getty. Also some of the guys we let go have actually started for other teams. We'll see this year. They had Gates and three rookies playing last year and they all did improve as the year went on. Now it'll be whether they can continue to improve. Getty already planted his flag on the starting group of Andrew, Lemieux, Gates, Hernandez, Peart . He'll either be right or wrong on them. The bigger issue at the moment is the depth as they obviously misevaluated the depth pieces they brought in not recognizing the possibility that these guys could retire.
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Post by vinnie on Aug 11, 2021 14:02:51 GMT -5
He deserves every bit of criticism for this mess of an O line. Maybe I should start posting articles discussing how bad the O line was last year as a reminder as to why DG gets criticized as often as he does. Why aren't the coaches responsible also? I think the lack of a good OL coach has been our issue more than anything else. We should have hit on 1 good olineman by this point between Reese and Getty. Also some of the guys we let go have actually started for other teams. So every coach we’ve had for the past ~10 years have all sucked? Who’s in charge of hiring the HC that makes those coaching decisions? Not only that but these O lines haven’t even been mediocre under Gettleman, they’ve been horrendous. I find it hard to believe that out of the carousel of O linemen that have come and gone since DG took over that they were all that bad and incapable of improving.
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Post by jb456 on Aug 11, 2021 14:10:09 GMT -5
On the OL "Can we please get in pads and play a game? Can we try that on for size?”
And attack DG in 3...2...1...
He deserves every bit of criticism for this mess of an O line. Maybe I should start posting articles discussing how bad the O line was last year as a reminder as to why DG gets criticized as often as he does. During their presser, DG told the media that it's the GM's job to get the coaches the players that they asked for. Wouldn't it by at least 75% (Or more) the coaches fault if they told DG to get other players in the draft and FA?
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Post by IrishMike on Aug 11, 2021 14:12:44 GMT -5
So every coach we’ve had for the past ~10 years have all sucked? Who’s in charge of hiring the HC that makes those coaching decisions? Not only that but these O lines haven’t even been mediocre under Gettleman, they’ve been horrendous. I find it hard to believe that out of the carousel of O linemen that have come and gone since DG took over that they were all that bad and incapable of improving. I'm not sure I would say all those coaches sucked but they certainly weren't that good...they all got fired lol. I would say our OL coaches since Flats left have been terrible. As for who is in charge of hiring that is the great debate. I have been told several times here that the GM is not the one that hires the HC in this organization. I'm not sure if it's the truth. The HC certainly is the one that hires the position coaches though.
I agree 100% that the carousel of OL that DG has brought is were all bad and incapable of improving...yet somehow they did not improve and even good ones regressed. I'm not sure we can blame DG for that.
DG deserves some blame for sure, and this is his last chance to fix it (I imagine) but we can't ignore how bad the coaches were.
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Post by vinnie on Aug 11, 2021 14:16:38 GMT -5
He deserves every bit of criticism for this mess of an O line. Maybe I should start posting articles discussing how bad the O line was last year as a reminder as to why DG gets criticized as often as he does. Interesting that our young Oline improved as the year progressed last year and you see it as mess without them even taking a snap. Losing Looney and Fulton is on Dave for sure but let’s see who he picks up before we write the book on this season. I don’t put as much stock s some do when they consider “improving” going from the worst in the league to one of the worst in the league. Again, I’m not saying they won’t or can’t improve but they didn’t do one thing to add to this line which includes some of the worst in the league at their position. There have been plenty of other rookies drafted and they didn’t all suck. As far as people claiming we shouldn’t assume anything until they’ve played a game, we’ve heard that same excuse for every off season and pre season game and most of the time it carries over to the regular season. Also, by the same token, if some posters don’t like it when others complain about bad players before the season starts then they shouldn’t post how good some players were last year or appear to be in camp. Who cares what Toney is doing in camp, it’s not areal game, it means nothing, right? Who cares that Barkley is running in camp, we have no idea how he will perform in a real game. Who cares if Jones throws some nice passes, it doesn’t mean a thing until it’s full speed against someone not on the Giants.
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Post by vinnie on Aug 11, 2021 14:22:49 GMT -5
He deserves every bit of criticism for this mess of an O line. Maybe I should start posting articles discussing how bad the O line was last year as a reminder as to why DG gets criticized as often as he does. During their presser, DG told the media that it's the GM's job to get the coaches the players that they asked for. Wouldn't it by at least 75% (Or more) the coaches fault if they told DG to get other players in the draft and FA? If DG is only doing what the coaches tell him to do and what players to get, then what purpose does he serve? So you think Shurmur asked DG to draft Barkley with the 2nd overall pick? Again, if that was the case then what good is he? He’s supposed to build a team properly, not just go get whoever the coaches want, literally any of us could do that if that were true.
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Post by vinnie on Aug 11, 2021 14:25:18 GMT -5
So every coach we’ve had for the past ~10 years have all sucked? Who’s in charge of hiring the HC that makes those coaching decisions? Not only that but these O lines haven’t even been mediocre under Gettleman, they’ve been horrendous. I find it hard to believe that out of the carousel of O linemen that have come and gone since DG took over that they were all that bad and incapable of improving. I'm not sure I would say all those coaches sucked but they certainly weren't that good...they all got fired lol. I would say our OL coaches since Flats left have been terrible. As for who is in charge of hiring that is the great debate. I have been told several times here that the GM is not the one that hires the HC in this organization. I'm not sure if it's the truth. The HC certainly is the one that hires the position coaches though.
I agree 100% that the carousel of OL that DG has brought is were all bad and incapable of improving...yet somehow they did not improve and even good ones regressed. I'm not sure we can blame DG for that.
DG deserves some blame for sure, and this is his last chance to fix it (I imagine) but we can't ignore how bad the coaches were.
There’s some valid points but man…the GM is ultimately responsible in my book but like you said there’s some serious questions about who’s actually running the show. Mara may be a Jerry Jones in disguise which would explain a lot.
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Post by jb456 on Aug 11, 2021 14:51:13 GMT -5
During their presser, DG told the media that it's the GM's job to get the coaches the players that they asked for. Wouldn't it by at least 75% (Or more) the coaches fault if they told DG to get other players in the draft and FA? If DG is only doing what the coaches tell him to do and what players to get, then what purpose does he serve? So you think Shurmur asked DG to draft Barkley with the 2nd overall pick? Again, if that was the case then what good is he? He’s supposed to build a team properly, not just go get whoever the coaches want, literally any of us could do that if that were true. I don't think any of knows 100% the inner workings of the Giants. What I do know is there are votes and DG was obviously voted down in either the 2nd or 3rd round (You saw him pouting in the corner). What happens if DG wanted to draft Oline and he was outvoted by Judge and the other coaches? It's obvious that DG can't override the other coaches.
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Post by IrishMike on Aug 11, 2021 15:14:48 GMT -5
There’s some valid points but man…the GM is ultimately responsible in my book but like you said there’s some serious questions about who’s actually running the show. Mara may be a Jerry Jones in disguise which would explain a lot. I agree and ultimately it will cost DG his job if he doesn't get it fixed. I believe the folks that say the owners hire (or at least hold a big opinion) about the HC we hire. The Giants brand means we need a certain HC. It doesn't matter who the Jags hire or the Cardinals.
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Post by Martin on Aug 11, 2021 15:14:56 GMT -5
You can post anything you want. I try to post articles as they pop up and ones that aren't already posted. My comment was not about DG getting criticized for his failure to produce a good OL, it was about how every time he opens his mouth people are like "this dude sounds stupid with his accent, why did he say that, he's a liar, back to using cliches". You can criticize, I can counter (or attempt to) you critique, and we can talk football. If the comment (just in general not you) is "what a dumb accent" I can't really discuss that in a football sense.
I thought the standard turn around time for the rebuilding of the OL for the Giants was 8 years? yess dog years!
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Post by Martin on Aug 11, 2021 15:17:35 GMT -5
We should wait for some live bullets to fly, I agree with him on that....as respects the starters. However, the frightening non existence of capable depth on the OL belongs to him as does the assessment in the off-season/draft that our OL was in good enough shape. He owns it lock stock and barrel just as JR owned it when he proclaimed that "the talent is there on the OL, it's up to the coaches to bring it out." Most of us can smell BS at 110 yards. I admit to now having a knot in my stomach regarding the OL. I have moved from mild concern to flat out worry. I am no Gettleman fan, but in his defense the depth was looking fine until Looney and Fulton retired. It's a very valid point. I am sure they were not expecting that. A kick in the nuts for sure.
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Post by bluebuddha on Aug 11, 2021 17:38:19 GMT -5
Why aren't the coaches responsible also? I think the lack of a good OL coach has been our issue more than anything else. We should have hit on 1 good olineman by this point between Reese and Getty. Also some of the guys we let go have actually started for other teams. We'll see this year. They had Gates and three rookies playing last year and they all did improve as the year went on. Now it'll be whether they can continue to improve. Getty already planted his flag on the starting group of Andrew, Lemieux, Gates, Hernandez, Peart . He'll either be right or wrong on them. The bigger issue at the moment is the depth as they obviously misevaluated the depth pieces they brought in not recognizing the possibility that these guys could retire. He is not a mind reader. I don't hold retirements against DG. Who knows why they retired but they obviously didn't mail it in when they tried out for the team. He is a polarizing figure on here. I don't think he can do no right to some posters. He didn't have an oline problem in Carolina from what I remember.
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Post by bluebuddha on Aug 11, 2021 17:45:01 GMT -5
Why aren't the coaches responsible also? I think the lack of a good OL coach has been our issue more than anything else. We should have hit on 1 good olineman by this point between Reese and Getty. Also some of the guys we let go have actually started for other teams. So every coach we’ve had for the past ~10 years have all sucked? Who’s in charge of hiring the HC that makes those coaching decisions? Not only that but these O lines haven’t even been mediocre under Gettleman, they’ve been horrendous. I find it hard to believe that out of the carousel of O linemen that have come and gone since DG took over that they were all that bad and incapable of improving. If the coaches were good would we have this much turnover? We average a new coach every 3 or 4 years. So yes our coaches aren't getting the best out of players. How come guys like Zietler and Solder can do good on thier respective teams but suck when they get here? How can guys like Remmers, Pugh, Flowers get cut from here but still start on other teams. You might be right but you can't say the oline coaching was good.
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Post by GameTime on Aug 11, 2021 17:54:18 GMT -5
So every coach we’ve had for the past ~10 years have all sucked? Who’s in charge of hiring the HC that makes those coaching decisions? Not only that but these O lines haven’t even been mediocre under Gettleman, they’ve been horrendous. I find it hard to believe that out of the carousel of O linemen that have come and gone since DG took over that they were all that bad and incapable of improving. If the coaches were good would we have this much turnover? We average a new coach every 3 or 4 years. So yes our coaches aren't getting the best out of players. How come guys like Zietler and Solder can do good on thier respective teams but suck when they get here? How can guys like Remmers, Pugh, Flowers get cut from here but still start on other teams. You might be right but you can't say the oline coaching was good. Flowers has been on how many teams? Zeitler wasnt good here? Pugh was n the NYGs for 5 seasons and suffered a knee and back injury. Was let go after that. I agree about better coaching etc but the examples you gave dont really support that
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Post by bluebuddha on Aug 11, 2021 19:00:14 GMT -5
If the coaches were good would we have this much turnover? We average a new coach every 3 or 4 years. So yes our coaches aren't getting the best out of players. How come guys like Zietler and Solder can do good on thier respective teams but suck when they get here? How can guys like Remmers, Pugh, Flowers get cut from here but still start on other teams. You might be right but you can't say the oline coaching was good. Flowers has been on how many teams? Zeitler wasnt good here? Pugh was n the NYGs for 5 seasons and suffered a knee and back injury. Was let go after that. I agree about better coaching etc but the examples you gave dont really support that The fact that other coaches are getting more out of our discarded Olineman speaks directly to our coaching. Those guys are still producing for other offenses. Whether you think thier play is good or bad doesn't make Difference. Other coaches are fine with them starting. Just because Zietler was the best lineman on a shitty line doesn't mean he was at playing at the same level as he was in Cincy and the Browns.
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Post by ocgiant on Aug 11, 2021 19:14:01 GMT -5
I have to believe they'll find something from the league's roster cuts scrape heap. Getty quoted "Obviously we’ve gotta keep working the back end over, you’re never done tinkering with your roster.” You think!?!
This comes as no big surprise from Getty since he's been telling us this was going to be a risk/gamble since FA and the draft. Is it a gamble on Getty's part? Absolutely.
Maybe he knows something we don't?
At least, he seems to think that way for now
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Post by DandyDon on Aug 11, 2021 19:29:53 GMT -5
Flowers has been on how many teams? Zeitler wasnt good here? Pugh was n the NYGs for 5 seasons and suffered a knee and back injury. Was let go after that. I agree about better coaching etc but the examples you gave dont really support that The fact that other coaches are getting more out of our discarded Olineman speaks directly to our coaching. Those guys are still producing for other offenses. Whether you think thier play is good or bad doesn't make Difference. Other coaches are fine with them starting. Just because Zietler was the best lineman on a shitty line doesn't mean he was at playing at the same level as he was in Cincy and the Browns. Which "other coaches are getting more out of our discarded Olineman?"
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Aug 11, 2021 19:30:20 GMT -5
We'll see this year. They had Gates and three rookies playing last year and they all did improve as the year went on. Now it'll be whether they can continue to improve. Getty already planted his flag on the starting group of Andrew, Lemieux, Gates, Hernandez, Peart . He'll either be right or wrong on them. The bigger issue at the moment is the depth as they obviously misevaluated the depth pieces they brought in not recognizing the possibility that these guys could retire. He is not a mind reader. I don't hold retirements against DG. Who knows why they retired but they obviously didn't mail it in when they tried out for the team. He is a polarizing figure on here. I don't think he can do no right to some posters. He didn't have an oline problem in Carolina from what I remember. I disagree with the notion that there's no way he could have known about the potential retirements. And I've been, I think, pretty fair to DG during his tenure. Did he have any substantial discussions with these players when he was thinking of signing them? Did he go over what their roles would be? Their spots on the teams? How did they respond when he asked what they saw as their roles on the team? So, maybe they expressed some possibility of it occurring, maybe not. But, I'm more concerned with them being seemingly content with just letting it ride as is. Now, I'm hoping they are just surveying the league at the moment and want to give the guys on the roster a chance at a real shot during this weekend's game. But, if the OL is a big issue, particularly on the second unit, this saturday, they gotta make some moves.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2021 6:48:20 GMT -5
He is not a mind reader. I don't hold retirements against DG. Who knows why they retired but they obviously didn't mail it in when they tried out for the team. He is a polarizing figure on here. I don't think he can do no right to some posters. He didn't have an oline problem in Carolina from what I remember. I disagree with the notion that there's no way he could have known about the potential retirements. And I've been, I think, pretty fair to DG during his tenure. Did he have any substantial discussions with these players when he was thinking of signing them? Did he go over what their roles would be? Their spots on the teams? How did they respond when he asked what they saw as their roles on the team? So, maybe they expressed some possibility of it occurring, maybe not. But, I'm more concerned with them being seemingly content with just letting it ride as is. Now, I'm hoping they are just surveying the league at the moment and want to give the guys on the roster a chance at a real shot during this weekend's game. But, if the OL is a big issue, particularly on the second unit, this saturday, they gotta make some moves. I was told by you yesterday that the oline improved last year so they will be fine staying with the group they have even after losing their best player.. Now its a big issue?? WTF
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Post by GameTime on Aug 12, 2021 7:32:34 GMT -5
the OL was a gamble with 3 rookies returning and Gates only at year two playing center. Add in the question of the RG.
The Giants are rolling the dice and they know it. Not hard to see.
Complicate the issue with trying to get vet depth and these guys puss out and retire. Solder gets nicked up.
Have to think that OL is the most difficult group to keep in tact and consistent across the board with every team.
Then sprinkle in the "little" fact of a 3rd year QB trying show he is the franchise. If Jones makes through this season and manages to correct his own flaws and do well will be a pretty impressive feat.
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Post by vinnie on Aug 12, 2021 8:01:04 GMT -5
We'll see this year. They had Gates and three rookies playing last year and they all did improve as the year went on. Now it'll be whether they can continue to improve. Getty already planted his flag on the starting group of Andrew, Lemieux, Gates, Hernandez, Peart . He'll either be right or wrong on them. The bigger issue at the moment is the depth as they obviously misevaluated the depth pieces they brought in not recognizing the possibility that these guys could retire. He is not a mind reader. I don't hold retirements against DG. Who knows why they retired but they obviously didn't mail it in when they tried out for the team. He is a polarizing figure on here. I don't think he can do no right to some posters. He didn't have an oline problem in Carolina from what I remember. Didn’t have a problem?! He was fired almost as soon as he got there in GM years and that was after a SB appearance. That takes a special type of personality to achieve that.
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Post by vinnie on Aug 12, 2021 8:06:07 GMT -5
So every coach we’ve had for the past ~10 years have all sucked? Who’s in charge of hiring the HC that makes those coaching decisions? Not only that but these O lines haven’t even been mediocre under Gettleman, they’ve been horrendous. I find it hard to believe that out of the carousel of O linemen that have come and gone since DG took over that they were all that bad and incapable of improving. If the coaches were good would we have this much turnover? We average a new coach every 3 or 4 years. So yes our coaches aren't getting the best out of players. How come guys like Zietler and Solder can do good on thier respective teams but suck when they get here? How can guys like Remmers, Pugh, Flowers get cut from here but still start on other teams. You might be right but you can't say the oline coaching was good. So according to you, every O line coach we’ve had for the past ~10 years have been so bad that at least half of those years we were one of the worst in the league? Solder couldn’t have possibly been better in NE due to scheme or his QB getting rid of the ball and making adjustments? Zeitler couldn’t have been better in Cleveland due to the players around him? We could have kept Pugh but he wasn’t one of DG’s guys. Flowers was never moved to guard here. It’s up to the GM to figure out why those guys were successful before they got here, it’s not all just based on O line coaching.
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Post by vinnie on Aug 12, 2021 8:08:46 GMT -5
Flowers has been on how many teams? Zeitler wasnt good here? Pugh was n the NYGs for 5 seasons and suffered a knee and back injury. Was let go after that. I agree about better coaching etc but the examples you gave dont really support that The fact that other coaches are getting more out of our discarded Olineman speaks directly to our coaching. Those guys are still producing for other offenses. Whether you think thier play is good or bad doesn't make Difference. Other coaches are fine with them starting. Just because Zietler was the best lineman on a shitty line doesn't mean he was at playing at the same level as he was in Cincy and the Browns. Huh? “Other coaches were fine with them starting” and so were our coaches apparently, that doesn’t prove they were good or even adequate. Almost every single one of our starters last year would have been back ups on other teams, does that automatically mean they were good because they started?
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Aug 12, 2021 9:34:28 GMT -5
I disagree with the notion that there's no way he could have known about the potential retirements. And I've been, I think, pretty fair to DG during his tenure. Did he have any substantial discussions with these players when he was thinking of signing them? Did he go over what their roles would be? Their spots on the teams? How did they respond when he asked what they saw as their roles on the team? So, maybe they expressed some possibility of it occurring, maybe not. But, I'm more concerned with them being seemingly content with just letting it ride as is. Now, I'm hoping they are just surveying the league at the moment and want to give the guys on the roster a chance at a real shot during this weekend's game. But, if the OL is a big issue, particularly on the second unit, this saturday, they gotta make some moves. I was told by you yesterday that the oline improved last year so they will be fine staying with the group they have even after losing their best player.. Now its a big issue?? WTF I said the unit improved and there is reason for optimism with the improvement demonstrated by the young players. I never, at any time, said "they will be fine". I said I can see why the coaching staff believes in the starting group. And if you read my posts here, you see that my concern is primarily centered around the loss of depth as even with having confidence in young players, you can't put all of your eggs in that basket. I hope this clarifies.
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Post by IrishMike on Aug 12, 2021 9:37:54 GMT -5
Maybe he knows something we don't? Of course the GM knows something we don't lol. So does the HC. We make these predictions with the safety of knowing this doesn't effect our life at all. They know how these players are actually working out in their system, they know how they can adjust things to fit what our players can do (something the great coaches do), they know who the free agents were and what they were asking and the implications to our plans, they know more about these draftees than any of us could hope to know (even those of us that played football or scout highschool players).
None of that means it'll work out though, we will have to wait and see; but many times we bash a decision without credible alternative solutions, these guys have to make a decision and have a solution to problems.
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Post by IrishMike on Aug 12, 2021 9:46:59 GMT -5
So according to you, every O line coach we’ve had for the past ~10 years have been so bad that at least half of those years we were one of the worst in the league? Solder couldn’t have possibly been better in NE due to scheme or his QB getting rid of the ball and making adjustments? Zeitler couldn’t have been better in Cleveland due to the players around him? We could have kept Pugh but he wasn’t one of DG’s guys. Flowers was never moved to guard here. It’s up to the GM to figure out why those guys were successful before they got here, it’s not all just based on O line coaching. Just wanted to chime in here. No one is saying Flaherty was bad so your 10 years comment is off. He left after 2015. When you say "every O line coach" you are really just talking about Solari and Hal Hunter. Yes I think they were both terrible here. Not a single player improved under them and many of them got worse. Some of that is outside their control Pughs injuries, Solders kid, Westburg injuries ect. But they need to get some blame when we spent early pick after early pick on the OL and those guys regress while playing for our team.
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