|
Post by IrishMike on Aug 12, 2021 9:50:25 GMT -5
It’s up to the GM to figure out why those guys were successful before they got here, it’s not all just based on O line coaching. I think we would have a philosophical disagreement here. I believe it is up to our coaches to figure out how a player was successful and how best to use them. Especially when you have a GM like DG that has stated over and over he works with the coaches to get a player they want. If you want someone and I get him then it's on you to know how to use him.
|
|
|
Post by vinnie on Aug 12, 2021 10:00:29 GMT -5
So according to you, every O line coach we’ve had for the past ~10 years have been so bad that at least half of those years we were one of the worst in the league? Solder couldn’t have possibly been better in NE due to scheme or his QB getting rid of the ball and making adjustments? Zeitler couldn’t have been better in Cleveland due to the players around him? We could have kept Pugh but he wasn’t one of DG’s guys. Flowers was never moved to guard here. It’s up to the GM to figure out why those guys were successful before they got here, it’s not all just based on O line coaching. Just wanted to chime in here. No one is saying Flaherty was bad so your 10 years comment is off. He left after 2015. When you say "every O line coach" you are really just talking about Solari and Hal Hunter. Yes I think they were both terrible here. Not a single player improved under them and many of them got worse. Some of that is outside their control Pughs injuries, Solders kid, Westburg injuries ect. But they need to get some blame when we spent early pick after early pick on the OL and those guys regress while playing for our team.
They can get some blame but when we have guys that were successful on other teams and know how to play their position, I don’t but that they suddenly regressed and stopped knowing how to play football due to a certain coach. I also really don’t care where a player was drafted, there are 1st round busts all the time. A good GM should be able to sort through the fluff and figure out which players are worthy of a first or second round pick based on talent and positional value, not random analysts ratings or Walter Football. A lot of these players also got worse due to their surrounding teammates. Do you think Thomas would look as good playing next to Quenton Nelson as he would Lemiuex? Do you think Solder would give up as many sacks with Brady as QB or DJ? GM’s need to look at the big picture and figure out why these players looked good, it’s not always as cut and dry as the individual himself.
|
|
|
Post by vinnie on Aug 12, 2021 10:10:47 GMT -5
It’s up to the GM to figure out why those guys were successful before they got here, it’s not all just based on O line coaching. I think we would have a philosophical disagreement here. I believe it is up to our coaches to figure out how a player was successful and how best to use them. Especially when you have a GM like DG that has stated over and over he works with the coaches to get a player they want. If you want someone and I get him then it's on you to know how to use him. I just gave some examples in my last post. If I think Solder looked better than he was due to Tom Brady and the other players around him, can I tell DG to go get me Tom Brady and similar players? It’s not that easy, maybe DG should stop being a puppet and build a team the way it needs to be built based on his knowledge, scouts and evaluation instead of some guy a coach wants. If all DG does is what the coach wants, why not let him go and let Judge have almost full control of the team a la Bill Bellichick so all the blame can be placed on one person, not “it was the coaches fault” or “it was the GM’s fault”. I’m just curious what exactly DG’s role is if all he does is get specific players the coaches want which I don’t necessarily believe anyways.
|
|
|
Post by IrishMike on Aug 12, 2021 10:11:37 GMT -5
They can get some blame but when we have guys that were successful on other teams and know how to play their position, I don’t but that they suddenly regressed and stopped knowing how to play football due to a certain coach. I also really don’t care where a player was drafted, there are 1st round busts all the time. A good GM should be able to sort through the fluff and figure out which players are worthy of a first or second round pick based on talent and positional value, not random analysts ratings or Walter Football. A lot of these players also got worse due to their surrounding teammates. Do you think Thomas would look as good playing next to Quenton Nelson as he would Lemiuex? Do you think Solder would give up as many sacks with Brady as QB or DJ? GM’s need to look at the big picture and figure out why these players looked good, it’s not always as cut and dry as the individual himself. I don't think these players (veteran free agents) suddenly regressed either. Of course the surrounding players play a role but we get players and they need to perform no matter who is next to them. Solder played just as well in 2018 for us as he did in New England. So when he suddenly is terrible in 2019 is that really the GMs fault? Our coaches have to figure out how to best use a player.
There are first round busts but the OL has the highest "hit rate" of any position in round 1 and 2. So when our GM keeps taking guys that don't work out I kind of get suspicious about what the cause could be. If rookies simply are not improving and are actually getting worse (Flowers, Westburg and Hernandez all got worse after their rookie year) I really question what our coaches are doing. There were endless videos of people saying their flaws need to get coached out of them. Simply things like not picking up a stunt can't be put on the GM.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2021 10:43:46 GMT -5
I was told by you yesterday that the oline improved last year so they will be fine staying with the group they have even after losing their best player.. Now its a big issue?? WTF I said the unit improved and there is reason for optimism with the improvement demonstrated by the young players. I never, at any time, said "they will be fine". I said I can see why the coaching staff believes in the starting group. And if you read my posts here, you see that my concern is primarily centered around the loss of depth as even with having confidence in young players, you can't put all of your eggs in that basket. I hope this clarifies. I have been reading your responses and all I see is inconsistency and this one sums it up perfectly.. Hoping that 3 rookies and a player that has regressed these last two years will improve dramatically is exactly like "putting all your eggs in one basket".. Crazy. GO GIANTS!!
|
|
|
Post by vinnie on Aug 12, 2021 10:49:46 GMT -5
They can get some blame but when we have guys that were successful on other teams and know how to play their position, I don’t but that they suddenly regressed and stopped knowing how to play football due to a certain coach. I also really don’t care where a player was drafted, there are 1st round busts all the time. A good GM should be able to sort through the fluff and figure out which players are worthy of a first or second round pick based on talent and positional value, not random analysts ratings or Walter Football. A lot of these players also got worse due to their surrounding teammates. Do you think Thomas would look as good playing next to Quenton Nelson as he would Lemiuex? Do you think Solder would give up as many sacks with Brady as QB or DJ? GM’s need to look at the big picture and figure out why these players looked good, it’s not always as cut and dry as the individual himself. I don't think these players (veteran free agents) suddenly regressed either. Of course the surrounding players play a role but we get players and they need to perform no matter who is next to them. Solder played just as well in 2018 for us as he did in New England. So when he suddenly is terrible in 2019 is that really the GMs fault? Our coaches have to figure out how to best use a player.
There are first round busts but the OL has the highest "hit rate" of any position in round 1 and 2. So when our GM keeps taking guys that don't work out I kind of get suspicious about what the cause could be. If rookies simply are not improving and are actually getting worse (Flowers, Westburg and Hernandez all got worse after their rookie year) I really question what our coaches are doing. There were endless videos of people saying their flaws need to get coached out of them. Simply things like not picking up a stunt can't be put on the GM.
I’d chalk a lot of it up to poor evaluation of talent. IIRC, Flowers was never that highly praised and most people were shocked when we took him and if the OL has the highest hit rate then why didn’t we take Nelson and Hernandez in 2018 instead of a RB, with no O line, who has incredibly low positional value and can be found throughout the draft? I’m not absolving all the coaches but with as many linemen as we’ve had come and go over the past 4 years I find it hard to believe that we have had quality players and they ALL regressed significantly due to coaching. Also, wasn’t it the almighty Joe Judge who put together the coaching staff? It seems like the players don’t have any accountability according to some.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2021 10:59:42 GMT -5
They can get some blame but when we have guys that were successful on other teams and know how to play their position, I don’t but that they suddenly regressed and stopped knowing how to play football due to a certain coach. I also really don’t care where a player was drafted, there are 1st round busts all the time. A good GM should be able to sort through the fluff and figure out which players are worthy of a first or second round pick based on talent and positional value, not random analysts ratings or Walter Football. A lot of these players also got worse due to their surrounding teammates. Do you think Thomas would look as good playing next to Quenton Nelson as he would Lemiuex? Do you think Solder would give up as many sacks with Brady as QB or DJ? GM’s need to look at the big picture and figure out why these players looked good, it’s not always as cut and dry as the individual himself. I don't think these players (veteran free agents) suddenly regressed either. Of course the surrounding players play a role but we get players and they need to perform no matter who is next to them. Solder played just as well in 2018 for us as he did in New England. So when he suddenly is terrible in 2019 is that really the GMs fault? Our coaches have to figure out how to best use a player.
There are first round busts but the OL has the highest "hit rate" of any position in round 1 and 2. So when our GM keeps taking guys that don't work out I kind of get suspicious about what the cause could be. If rookies simply are not improving and are actually getting worse (Flowers, Westburg and Hernandez all got worse after their rookie year) I really question what our coaches are doing. There were endless videos of people saying their flaws need to get coached out of them. Simply things like not picking up a stunt can't be put on the GM.
We will never get to the absolute reason or fault if you want to use that term. With any player at this level if there is a fault found with them the rest of the league will exploit that which might have been the case with these players. Examples are Hernandez and stunts once it was shown he struggles with that during his 1st year then teams will ramp up the ways to exploit it. Maybe Westburg didn't posses the right leverage to handle a power rush or say a Flowers was easy to bait into a spin move by getting him off balance either way these players were picked with flaws that they couldn't change.. Do you remember the 2000 SB? I couldn't believe the coaches weren't telling Collins to stop staring down his receiver then I watched one of those mic'ed up episodes and I found out Fassel was telling him to stop but he couldn't..
|
|
|
Post by GameTime on Aug 12, 2021 11:26:17 GMT -5
so many things are involved.
Coaching talent Coaching experience Coaching philosophies
Player talent Player ability to learn and correct themselves. Player's experience levels
Gameplans Schemes Drafts FAs Trades
and on and on.
Doesnt take much to screw that whole chain up but it takes a tremendous amount to make it all work.
|
|
|
Post by bluebuddha on Aug 12, 2021 11:57:40 GMT -5
If the coaches were good would we have this much turnover? We average a new coach every 3 or 4 years. So yes our coaches aren't getting the best out of players. How come guys like Zietler and Solder can do good on thier respective teams but suck when they get here? How can guys like Remmers, Pugh, Flowers get cut from here but still start on other teams. You might be right but you can't say the oline coaching was good. So according to you, every O line coach we’ve had for the past ~10 years have been so bad that at least half of those years we were one of the worst in the league? Solder couldn’t have possibly been better in NE due to scheme or his QB getting rid of the ball and making adjustments? Zeitler couldn’t have been better in Cleveland due to the players around him? We could have kept Pugh but he wasn’t one of DG’s guys. Flowers was never moved to guard here. It’s up to the GM to figure out why those guys were successful before they got here, it’s not all just based on O line coaching. I am not a DG fan. I am neutral leaning to I hope he doesn't com back next year. Again multiple GMs same result with a coaching carousel by the owners. I would say we don't see eye to eye on this. So I will move on.
|
|
|
Post by IrishMike on Aug 12, 2021 13:05:06 GMT -5
I’d chalk a lot of it up to poor evaluation of talent. IIRC, Flowers was never that highly praised and most people were shocked when we took him and if the OL has the highest hit rate then why didn’t we take Nelson and Hernandez in 2018 instead of a RB, with no O line, who has incredibly low positional value and can be found throughout the draft? I’m not absolving all the coaches but with as many linemen as we’ve had come and go over the past 4 years I find it hard to believe that we have had quality players and they ALL regressed significantly due to coaching. Also, wasn’t it the almighty Joe Judge who put together the coaching staff? It seems like the players don’t have any accountability according to some. Flowers was the 3rd rated OT in the class. Collins was ranked #2 and he went undrafted cause of the pending police questioning. Scherf was ranked #1 and was off the board when we picked. Some people had Peat ranked ahead of Flowers. Either way being the 3rd or 4th ranked OT should not mean he is a bum of a player. He showed promise as a rookie and got worse every year he was here. OL having the highest hit rate doesn't mean you always take an OL in round 1. DG went BPA.
I use your same logic, just against the coaches. I find it hard to believe that the many OL we had come through here the last few years have all just been terrible players with no redeeming qualities. Several of them have found starting jobs on other teams, which to me says maybe our coaches didn't do a very good job using them. I pointed out not all regression is on the coaches, Solder (child with cancer), Pugh (injuries) ect. But if no OL ever got better and many got worse I think something is up with the coaches.
Yes Judge put together the coaching staff and this OL improved as the season went on. He was not here the last 5 years though. The players should get some blame too. I would say start at 1/3 blame each and adjust as needed. Some people here blame DG 100% which is what I disagree with.
|
|
|
Post by BigBlueDog42 on Aug 13, 2021 14:35:53 GMT -5
Just wanted to chime in here. No one is saying Flaherty was bad so your 10 years comment is off. He left after 2015. When you say "every O line coach" you are really just talking about Solari and Hal Hunter. Yes I think they were both terrible here. Not a single player improved under them and many of them got worse. Some of that is outside their control Pughs injuries, Solders kid, Westburg injuries ect. But they need to get some blame when we spent early pick after early pick on the OL and those guys regress while playing for our team.
They can get some blame but when we have guys that were successful on other teams and know how to play their position, I don’t but that they suddenly regressed and stopped knowing how to play football due to a certain coach. I also really don’t care where a player was drafted, there are 1st round busts all the time. A good GM should be able to sort through the fluff and figure out which players are worthy of a first or second round pick based on talent and positional value, not random analysts ratings or Walter Football. A lot of these players also got worse due to their surrounding teammates. Do you think Thomas would look as good playing next to Quenton Nelson as he would Lemiuex? Do you think Solder would give up as many sacks with Brady as QB or DJ? GM’s need to look at the big picture and figure out why these players looked good, it’s not always as cut and dry as the individual himself. I think our free agent fortunes got better when they got the cap straight and were able to shop the top shelf. Early on the cap was tighter, for instance the paid Omameh low levell starter money Solder who had a solid career got top end money, this is why the draft is essential to any teams success teams have to have young talent on rookie contracts in the salary cap Era, if you blow a couple drafts it hurts big time. I think really players that did not develop as fast as we would like struggled because of the instability in coaching ranks and scheme some like Thomas had injuries and he had Will Hernandez who maybe a victim of Hal Hunter then Marc Columbo then Guges, Will H was pretty much considered the second best Guard in that class.
|
|
|
Post by vinnie on Aug 13, 2021 15:59:43 GMT -5
They can get some blame but when we have guys that were successful on other teams and know how to play their position, I don’t but that they suddenly regressed and stopped knowing how to play football due to a certain coach. I also really don’t care where a player was drafted, there are 1st round busts all the time. A good GM should be able to sort through the fluff and figure out which players are worthy of a first or second round pick based on talent and positional value, not random analysts ratings or Walter Football. A lot of these players also got worse due to their surrounding teammates. Do you think Thomas would look as good playing next to Quenton Nelson as he would Lemiuex? Do you think Solder would give up as many sacks with Brady as QB or DJ? GM’s need to look at the big picture and figure out why these players looked good, it’s not always as cut and dry as the individual himself. I think our free agent fortunes got better when they got the cap straight and were able to shop the top shelf. Early on the cap was tighter, for instance the paid Omameh low levell starter money Solder who had a solid career got top end money, this is why the draft is essential to any teams success teams have to have young talent on rookie contracts in the salary cap Era, if you blow a couple drafts it hurts big time. I think really players that did not develop as fast as we would like struggled because of the instability in coaching ranks and scheme some like Thomas had injuries and he had Will Hernandez who maybe a victim of Hal Hunter then Marc Columbo then Guges, Will H was pretty much considered the second best Guard in that class. While I agree how essential it is to have young talent on rookie contracts, that’s why it was a huge mistake to draft a RB with the second overall pick, it was horrible for positional value. It was also a colossal mistake to draft a QB with no O line or WR’s to work with. Ideally, everything would mostly be in place for that QB to succeed from day 1 unless that QB is a can’t miss prospect which DJ wasn’t.
|
|
|
Post by GameTime on Aug 13, 2021 16:04:27 GMT -5
I think our free agent fortunes got better when they got the cap straight and were able to shop the top shelf. Early on the cap was tighter, for instance the paid Omameh low levell starter money Solder who had a solid career got top end money, this is why the draft is essential to any teams success teams have to have young talent on rookie contracts in the salary cap Era, if you blow a couple drafts it hurts big time. I think really players that did not develop as fast as we would like struggled because of the instability in coaching ranks and scheme some like Thomas had injuries and he had Will Hernandez who maybe a victim of Hal Hunter then Marc Columbo then Guges, Will H was pretty much considered the second best Guard in that class. While I agree how essential it is to have young talent on rookie contracts, that’s why it was a huge mistake to draft a RB with the second overall pick, it was horrible for positional value. It was also a colossal mistake to draft a QB with no O line or WR’s to work with. Ideally, everything would mostly be in place for that QB to succeed from day 1 unless that QB is a can’t miss prospect which DJ wasn’t. except top 10 QBs are usually drafted by team that stink right. Teams with established OLs and WRs are most likely not drafting in the top ten.
|
|
|
Post by vinnie on Aug 13, 2021 16:22:21 GMT -5
While I agree how essential it is to have young talent on rookie contracts, that’s why it was a huge mistake to draft a RB with the second overall pick, it was horrible for positional value. It was also a colossal mistake to draft a QB with no O line or WR’s to work with. Ideally, everything would mostly be in place for that QB to succeed from day 1 unless that QB is a can’t miss prospect which DJ wasn’t. except top 10 QBs are usually drafted by team that stink right. Teams with established OLs and WRs are most likely not drafting in the top ten. I’d have to go through that list, there are times when an offense can carry a team with a journeyman QB but their defense sucks. Either way, I highly doubt those teams still had as bad as an offensive roster as we have had from the time they drafted said QB until 3 years later and if they did that’s a piss poor tram to model yourself after. DJ hasn’t had a single true No 1 WR and an O line that has consisted of back up quality linemen minus Zeitler. Not to mention, we could have built the team with a journeyman QB, finished middle of the pack at best and then moved up to draft a good QB so we could get every penny’s worth before having to pay him a mega contract or pay him early before he was due a contract that would be much higher after his 3rd or 4th season. Now with Jones, we have no idea what we have going into year 3 and if the O line sucks again, we still won’t know what we have going into next years draft with 2 first round picks. That’s not a good position to be in IF the O line is below average and IF he is under a lot of pressure (which is very possible unless this line makes very big improvements with little pre season action )
|
|
|
Post by GameTime on Aug 13, 2021 16:27:31 GMT -5
except top 10 QBs are usually drafted by team that stink right. Teams with established OLs and WRs are most likely not drafting in the top ten. I’d have to go through that list, there are times when an offense can carry a team with a journeyman QB but their defense sucks. Either way, I highly doubt those teams still had as bad as an offensive roster as we have had from the time they drafted said QB until 3 years later and if they did that’s a piss poor tram to model yourself after. DJ hasn’t had a single true No 1 WR and an O line that has consisted of back up quality linemen minus Zeitler. Not to mention, we could have built the team with a journeyman QB, finished middle of the pack at best and then moved up to draft a good QB so we could get every penny’s worth before having to pay him a mega contract or pay him early before he was due a contract that would be much higher after his 3rd or 4th season. Now with Jones, we have no idea what we have going into year 3 and if the O line sucks again, we still won’t know what we have going into next years draft with 2 first round picks. That’s not a good position to be in IF the O line is below average and IF he is under a lot of pressure (which is very possible unless this line makes very big improvements with little pre season action ) no doubt there is more than way to build a roster. Judge came in the middle of a rebuild that was having little success. There is so much to evaluate and different perspectives from that evaluation. If I sit there an over anaylyze I will drive my self nuts. Been there and done that for years with this team. Now I will sit back and see what unfolds with little expectation but with lots hope. Like I have said many times already I can pissed later when its really warranted. Just like I did the last several seasons. Now I just want to get through camp and have the real season start.
|
|
|
Post by BigBlueDog42 on Aug 13, 2021 18:42:03 GMT -5
I think our free agent fortunes got better when they got the cap straight and were able to shop the top shelf. Early on the cap was tighter, for instance the paid Omameh low levell starter money Solder who had a solid career got top end money, this is why the draft is essential to any teams success teams have to have young talent on rookie contracts in the salary cap Era, if you blow a couple drafts it hurts big time. I think really players that did not develop as fast as we would like struggled because of the instability in coaching ranks and scheme some like Thomas had injuries and he had Will Hernandez who maybe a victim of Hal Hunter then Marc Columbo then Guges, Will H was pretty much considered the second best Guard in that class. While I agree how essential it is to have young talent on rookie contracts, that’s why it was a huge mistake to draft a RB with the second overall pick, it was horrible for positional value. It was also a colossal mistake to draft a QB with no O line or WR’s to work with. Ideally, everything would mostly be in place for that QB to succeed from day 1 unless that QB is a can’t miss prospect which DJ wasn’t. The problem was in 2018 is he should have traded down, Barkely is a different dude as a few defensive coordinators said they assign 3 guys to him I will take that as a mistake, Really they drafted the best QB available to them in that particular draft, The WRs to me was the biggest blunder of all he should have drafted one2019 and again in 2020. The OL we will see that could be all of their undoing Judge was on board and thinks they are gonna be better for developing these guys we will see, I believe they might have 3 solid guys in place or soon to be.
|
|
|
Post by BigBlueDog42 on Aug 13, 2021 18:47:08 GMT -5
I’d have to go through that list, there are times when an offense can carry a team with a journeyman QB but their defense sucks. Either way, I highly doubt those teams still had as bad as an offensive roster as we have had from the time they drafted said QB until 3 years later and if they did that’s a piss poor tram to model yourself after. DJ hasn’t had a single true No 1 WR and an O line that has consisted of back up quality linemen minus Zeitler. Not to mention, we could have built the team with a journeyman QB, finished middle of the pack at best and then moved up to draft a good QB so we could get every penny’s worth before having to pay him a mega contract or pay him early before he was due a contract that would be much higher after his 3rd or 4th season. Now with Jones, we have no idea what we have going into year 3 and if the O line sucks again, we still won’t know what we have going into next years draft with 2 first round picks. That’s not a good position to be in IF the O line is below average and IF he is under a lot of pressure (which is very possible unless this line makes very big improvements with little pre season action ) no doubt there is more than way to build a roster. Judge came in the middle of a rebuild that was having little success. There is so much to evaluate and different perspectives from that evaluation. If I sit there an over anaylyze I will drive my self nuts. Been there and done that for years with this team. Now I will sit back and see what unfolds with little expectation but with lots hope. Like I have said many times already I can pissed later when its really warranted. Just like I did the last several seasons. Now I just want to get through camp and have the real season start. The hard part when they changed coaches they changed the type of player the new staff would want some were able to cross over but some haven't been so successful. That said I think they did a reasonably good job transitioning the front office and transitioning to the type of guys Judge wants and his staff wants, Kudo's to the coaches for working hard to help Identify guys the scouts could dig into and the front office for getting it done to this point.
|
|