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Post by Sarcasman on Jan 22, 2022 15:01:51 GMT -5
Corral reminds me of Derek Carr.....They look the same it's all in what you like I would just ride it out with Jones too many holes on the team to fish for a QB fix the OL then search for a replacement. Derek Carr is a substantial upgrade to Daniel Jones. We do recognize that, right?! Certainly there's more tape on him so comparing him to an incomplete, sure. Substantial? Not to me but given the dearth of comparable data, that's eye of the beholder stuff. He's a decent QB but not one I would have any interest in the Giants pursuing or paying assuming his next contract is in the market range of his last one.
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Post by thetruth on Jan 22, 2022 15:05:35 GMT -5
Derek Carr is a substantial upgrade to Daniel Jones. We do recognize that, right?! Certainly there's more tape on him so comparing him to an incomplete, sure. Substantial? Not to me but given the dearth of comparable data, that's eye of the beholder stuff. He's a decent QB but not one I would have any interest in the Giants pursuing or paying assuming his next contract is in the market range of his last one. Well, Carr averages 24 TDs, and 10 INTs per year. With one of the most dysfunctional organizations i've ever seen. And you and I know i've seen some dysfunction. He's had a decent OL? more bad recently but there were times when it was good. Outside of their TE, who have they they had at WR? HB? nothing special outside of their TE He still produces at top-10 level. Substantially more than whatever DJ has brought the Giants. Even if you consider them at the same age. Carr also is available, doesn't miss a third of the season every year.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jan 22, 2022 15:08:29 GMT -5
Certainly there's more tape on him so comparing him to an incomplete, sure. Substantial? Not to me but given the dearth of comparable data, that's eye of the beholder stuff. He's a decent QB but not one I would have any interest in the Giants pursuing or paying assuming his next contract is in the market range of his last one. Well, Carr averages 24 TDs, and 10 INTs per year. With one of the most dysfunctional organizations i've ever seen. And you and I know i've seen some dysfunction. He's had a decent OL? more bad recently but there were times when it was good. Outside of their TE, who have they they had at WR? HB? nothing special outside of their TE He still produces at top-10 level. Substantially more than whatever DJ has brought the Giants. Even if you consider them at the same age. Carr also is available, doesn't miss a third of the season every year. Like I said, compared to what little is available on Jones, there's no argument. And that's fine, I said he was OK. He'll get your team what it's built for.
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Post by thetruth on Jan 22, 2022 15:10:17 GMT -5
Well, Carr averages 24 TDs, and 10 INTs per year. With one of the most dysfunctional organizations i've ever seen. And you and I know i've seen some dysfunction. He's had a decent OL? more bad recently but there were times when it was good. Outside of their TE, who have they they had at WR? HB? nothing special outside of their TE He still produces at top-10 level. Substantially more than whatever DJ has brought the Giants. Even if you consider them at the same age. Carr also is available, doesn't miss a third of the season every year. Like I said, compared to what little is available on Jones, there's no argument. And that's fine, I said he was OK. He'll get your team what it's built for. I wouldn't say he's a truck, but your right. He's the type of guy you can win with if you build around, moreso in that Matt Ryan, Eli Manning category, they can win a SB if things go right I see people say that same thing with Jones, I just dont believe it.
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3days
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Post by 3days on Jan 22, 2022 15:18:19 GMT -5
I hope our new GM already planned for who the coach will be. If this guy needs to talk to 9-10 candidates, he really was not well prepared to be a GM right now and was a bad hire. we'll have to disagree on that one, especially with the first round of interviews being done remotely. No excuse not to, and there are plenty of worthy coaches. Completely agree, you need to cast a wide net.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jan 22, 2022 15:21:13 GMT -5
Like I said, compared to what little is available on Jones, there's no argument. And that's fine, I said he was OK. He'll get your team what it's built for. I wouldn't say he's a truck, but your right. He's the type of guy you can win with if you build around, moreso in that Matt Ryan, Eli Manning category, they can win a SB if things go right I see people say that same thing with Jones, I just dont believe it. When Carr wins something in the playoffs I might put him on that company. Not before. He hasn't done enough to be in that tier.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jan 22, 2022 15:24:22 GMT -5
Like I said, compared to what little is available on Jones, there's no argument. And that's fine, I said he was OK. He'll get your team what it's built for. I wouldn't say he's a truck, but your right. He's the type of guy you can win with if you build around, moreso in that Matt Ryan, Eli Manning category, they can win a SB if things go right I see people say that same thing with Jones, I just dont believe it. I like the truck trailer metaphor. Realistically what do you think those numbers are? For me consistent trucks (meaning almost every year) is about 10% and I'd say another potential 10% in any given year but not consistently (the 2011 Manning example). After that it's tiers and like all of this kind of stuff there's consistency and inconsistency in those as well.
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Post by thetruth on Jan 22, 2022 15:37:26 GMT -5
I wouldn't say he's a truck, but your right. He's the type of guy you can win with if you build around, moreso in that Matt Ryan, Eli Manning category, they can win a SB if things go right I see people say that same thing with Jones, I just dont believe it. When Carr wins something in the playoffs I might put him on that company. Not before. He hasn't done enough to be in that tier. I think if you replace Eli and Matt Ryan im similar situations their careers would be remarkably similar, if not worse than Carrs. All hypothetical but my opinion for what its worth
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Post by thetruth on Jan 22, 2022 15:39:57 GMT -5
I wouldn't say he's a truck, but your right. He's the type of guy you can win with if you build around, moreso in that Matt Ryan, Eli Manning category, they can win a SB if things go right I see people say that same thing with Jones, I just dont believe it. I like the truck trailer metaphor. Realistically what do you think those numbers are? For me consistent trucks (meaning almost every year) is about 10% and I'd say another potential 10% in any given year but not consistently (the 2011 Manning example). After that it's tiers and like all of this kind of stuff there's consistency and inconsistency in those as well. Manning's career is like a pyramid. Peaked in 2011-2012 where he was a truck but trailer for the rest of his career. Carson Palmer had a "Truck" year in AZ but these are few and far between. I think 10% is high. I can't think of many other examples to be honest. Aside from his past couple of years Ben Roth i would say has been a truck for more years than Manning. I think 15-20% of the NFL (any given time) are trucks most of their career (~6 out of 32 right now). Guys like Brady, Mahomes, Josh Allen, Burrows, Lamar Jackson, Herbert, Rodgers, Russ, Watson. We need to get into this tier or the one Manning/Ryan/Carr/Prescott were/are in and im willing the build with them
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Post by snyder55 on Jan 22, 2022 15:44:55 GMT -5
seems like there is a "dick head" epidemic going around right now.. We’re in no position to be judgmental on how a coach was perceived on another team. Parcells was a dickhead, and no one batted an eye in part we were kicking ass. Give me a coach who’s respected, over being liked. winning cures everything...
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Post by McCherry on Jan 22, 2022 15:56:09 GMT -5
Certainly there's more tape on him so comparing him to an incomplete, sure. Substantial? Not to me but given the dearth of comparable data, that's eye of the beholder stuff. He's a decent QB but not one I would have any interest in the Giants pursuing or paying assuming his next contract is in the market range of his last one. Well, Carr averages 24 TDs, and 10 INTs per year. With one of the most dysfunctional organizations i've ever seen. And you and I know i've seen some dysfunction. He's had a decent OL? more bad recently but there were times when it was good. Outside of their TE, who have they they had at WR? HB? nothing special outside of their TE He still produces at top-10 level. Substantially more than whatever DJ has brought the Giants. Even if you consider them at the same age. Carr also is available, doesn't miss a third of the season every year. Renfrow had over 100 catches this year. Jones hasn't had a fraction of the Raiders talent at any point in his career.
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Post by Parademon1 on Jan 22, 2022 16:01:13 GMT -5
If Carr is available, I'd give one of our #1s for him & use the other one on the best RT in college, #2 on edge, #3 on Center, #4 on LBer. Carr would be a huge upgrade over DJ & doesn't bring drama to the team.
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Post by snyder55 on Jan 22, 2022 16:08:27 GMT -5
seems like there is a "dick head" epidemic going around right now.. We’re in no position to be judgmental on how a coach was perceived on another team. Parcells was a dickhead, and no one batted an eye in part we were kicking ass. Give me a coach who’s respected, over being liked. success trumps "dickhead"
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Post by GameTime on Jan 22, 2022 16:08:57 GMT -5
Well, Carr averages 24 TDs, and 10 INTs per year. With one of the most dysfunctional organizations i've ever seen. And you and I know i've seen some dysfunction. He's had a decent OL? more bad recently but there were times when it was good. Outside of their TE, who have they they had at WR? HB? nothing special outside of their TE He still produces at top-10 level. Substantially more than whatever DJ has brought the Giants. Even if you consider them at the same age. Carr also is available, doesn't miss a third of the season every year. Renfrow had over 100 catches this year. Jones hasn't had a fraction of the Raiders talent at any point in his career. Jones never gets to form any type of comfort zone with his receivers because either He is hurt or the receivers are hurt. They have never built any chemistry.
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Post by snyder55 on Jan 22, 2022 16:14:42 GMT -5
He elevates that whole offense. I don't know if NY fans would trade that baggage he is carrying for more wins. I would personally. He has 22 lawsuits filed against him for sexual misconduct against women. I want no part of him. And I want no part of any team that does. most of those women have the biggest ambulance chaser in Houston for their lawyer, "whiplash Willie" is his name in Houston, he'll take any case as long as you pay him and these women are a goldmine for him...
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FBomb
Special Teams
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Post by FBomb on Jan 22, 2022 16:18:59 GMT -5
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Post by snyder55 on Jan 22, 2022 16:21:28 GMT -5
Corral reminds me of Derek Carr.....They look the same it's all in what you like I would just ride it out with Jones too many holes on the team to fish for a QB fix the OL then search for a replacement. Derek Carr is a substantial upgrade to Daniel Jones. We do recognize that, right?! since Jones has already proven that he is prone to getting injured and from what I read that keeping him in the pocket is the plan to cut down on those injuries, can he be successful as a pocket passer because it makes him more one dimensional...
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Post by Sarcasman on Jan 22, 2022 16:37:34 GMT -5
When Carr wins something in the playoffs I might put him on that company. Not before. He hasn't done enough to be in that tier. I think if you replace Eli and Matt Ryan im similar situations their careers would be remarkably similar, if not worse than Carrs. All hypothetical but my opinion for what its worth If Carr gets over the hump, I'd start including him in those kinds of conversations but not before then.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jan 22, 2022 16:40:55 GMT -5
Derek Carr is a substantial upgrade to Daniel Jones. We do recognize that, right?! since Jones has already proven that he is prone to getting injured and from what I read that keeping him in the pocket is the plan to cut down on those injuries, can he be successful as a pocket passer because it makes him more one dimensional... He was more a pocket passer as a rookie and we saw what he did (a top 2 or 3 rookie year all time )
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Post by Sarcasman on Jan 22, 2022 16:47:00 GMT -5
I like the truck trailer metaphor. Realistically what do you think those numbers are? For me consistent trucks (meaning almost every year) is about 10% and I'd say another potential 10% in any given year but not consistently (the 2011 Manning example). After that it's tiers and like all of this kind of stuff there's consistency and inconsistency in those as well. Manning's career is like a pyramid. Peaked in 2011-2012 where he was a truck but trailer for the rest of his career. Carson Palmer had a "Truck" year in AZ but these are few and far between. I think 10% is high. I can't think of many other examples to be honest. Aside from his past couple of years Ben Roth i would say has been a truck for more years than Manning. I think 15-20% of the NFL (any given time) are trucks most of their career (~6 out of 32 right now). Guys like Brady, Mahomes, Josh Allen, Burrows, Lamar Jackson, Herbert, Rodgers, Russ, Watson. We need to get into this tier or the one Manning/Ryan/Carr/Prescott were/are in and im willing the build with them I'm sorry that I was not clear. I was talking about the entire league. I'd say around 10% are consistent trucks (many years) and 10% are inconsistent trucks (have the ability to have and have had a tuck season). So I'd call it 15% - 20% of NFL QBs at any given time are trucks, consistent or inconsistent. And the players attributable to the inconsistent truck category can change each year. I think it's too early to put any young QB in the consistent truck category. I also pretty reject all talk of consistent trucks for crap teams, far too subjective (as if this all isn't, lol). I'm only interested in discussing trucks that actually go somewhere. I've no interest in comparing the merits of whether some crap team would have been 4-13 vs 6-11.
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Post by thetruth on Jan 22, 2022 16:47:35 GMT -5
Well, Carr averages 24 TDs, and 10 INTs per year. With one of the most dysfunctional organizations i've ever seen. And you and I know i've seen some dysfunction. He's had a decent OL? more bad recently but there were times when it was good. Outside of their TE, who have they they had at WR? HB? nothing special outside of their TE He still produces at top-10 level. Substantially more than whatever DJ has brought the Giants. Even if you consider them at the same age. Carr also is available, doesn't miss a third of the season every year. Renfrow had over 100 catches this year. Jones hasn't had a fraction of the Raiders talent at any point in his career. Who between Golloday/Toney would you trade for Renfrow? When Jones has the talent, which slowly but surely, all the excuses will go, is that when you will admit he isnt the guy? Davis Mills did more with less. Some more food for thought
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Post by thetruth on Jan 22, 2022 17:02:03 GMT -5
Manning's career is like a pyramid. Peaked in 2011-2012 where he was a truck but trailer for the rest of his career. Carson Palmer had a "Truck" year in AZ but these are few and far between. I think 10% is high. I can't think of many other examples to be honest. Aside from his past couple of years Ben Roth i would say has been a truck for more years than Manning. I think 15-20% of the NFL (any given time) are trucks most of their career (~6 out of 32 right now). Guys like Brady, Mahomes, Josh Allen, Burrows, Lamar Jackson, Herbert, Rodgers, Russ, Watson. We need to get into this tier or the one Manning/Ryan/Carr/Prescott were/are in and im willing the build with them I'm sorry that I was not clear. I was talking about the entire league. I'd say around 10% are consistent trucks (many years) and 10% are inconsistent trucks (have the ability to have and have had a tuck season). So I'd call it 15% - 20% of NFL QBs at any given time are trucks, consistent or inconsistent. And the players attributable to the inconsistent truck category can change each year. I think it's too early to put any young QB in the consistent truck category. I also pretty reject all talk of consistent trucks for crap teams, far too subjective (as if this all isn't, lol). I'm only interested in discussing trucks that actually go somewhere. I've no interest in comparing the merits of whether some crap team would have been 4-13 vs 6-11. 10% would mean ~3 trucks at the QB position. I think thats low end but fair. Probably no more than 6 consistent trucks in the NFL right now, I suppose that depends on what you say as "consistent truck" to me, its getting more out of your roster than its skill level. Very few can actually do that but there are a decent chunk that can. Perhaps winning in the SB is what it takes to 'prove' it. Or even winning playoff games, however, I think these require many other factors to align, too many variables for my like. If I see a QB that consistently does a lot, with little, shows me that they have the rare talent and that they're not the issue, but moreso, the solution.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jan 22, 2022 17:06:41 GMT -5
I'm sorry that I was not clear. I was talking about the entire league. I'd say around 10% are consistent trucks (many years) and 10% are inconsistent trucks (have the ability to have and have had a tuck season). So I'd call it 15% - 20% of NFL QBs at any given time are trucks, consistent or inconsistent. And the players attributable to the inconsistent truck category can change each year. I think it's too early to put any young QB in the consistent truck category. I also pretty reject all talk of consistent trucks for crap teams, far too subjective (as if this all isn't, lol). I'm only interested in discussing trucks that actually go somewhere. I've no interest in comparing the merits of whether some crap team would have been 4-13 vs 6-11. 10% would mean ~3 trucks at the QB position. I think thats low end but fair. Probably no more than 6 consistent trucks in the NFL right now, I suppose that depends on what you say as "consistent truck" to me, its getting more out of your roster than its skill level. Very few can actually do that but there are a lot that can. Perhaps proving to in the SB is what it takes to 'prove' it. Or even winning playoff games, however, I think that require many other factors to align, too many variables for my like. If I see a QB that consistently does a lot, with little, shows me that they have the rare talent and that they're not the issue, but moreso, the solution FWIW the only real guy I see doing this in college right now is Bryce Young... 2nd half against Georgia...if those guys don't drop perfectly thrown balls or on that pick 6 run a wrong option route they probably figure out a way to win that
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Post by McCherry on Jan 22, 2022 17:13:13 GMT -5
Renfrow had over 100 catches this year. Jones hasn't had a fraction of the Raiders talent at any point in his career. Who between Golloday/Toney would you trade for Renfrow? When Jones has the talent, which slowly but surely, all the excuses will go, is that when you will admit he isnt the guy? Davis Mills did more with less. Some more food for thought The question is Carr the guy? I don't think so.
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Post by nygfanstrick on Jan 22, 2022 17:19:22 GMT -5
I would love Daboll brought in. Very bright football mind. Has experience coaching defense on top of most of his experience being on the offensive side of the ball.
Daboll and a solid DC whether that’s Graham, Martindale, or someone else would be a home run I think.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jan 22, 2022 17:19:44 GMT -5
Who between Golloday/Toney would you trade for Renfrow? When Jones has the talent, which slowly but surely, all the excuses will go, is that when you will admit he isnt the guy? Davis Mills did more with less. Some more food for thought The question is Carr the guy? I don't think so. Not on this team if you want long term stability If you want a guy with that upside get Corral (I think Corral "can" have top 10 qb upside ...is that worth the 5th or 7th overall is the question)
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Post by Sarcasman on Jan 22, 2022 17:21:31 GMT -5
I'm sorry that I was not clear. I was talking about the entire league. I'd say around 10% are consistent trucks (many years) and 10% are inconsistent trucks (have the ability to have and have had a tuck season). So I'd call it 15% - 20% of NFL QBs at any given time are trucks, consistent or inconsistent. And the players attributable to the inconsistent truck category can change each year. I think it's too early to put any young QB in the consistent truck category. I also pretty reject all talk of consistent trucks for crap teams, far too subjective (as if this all isn't, lol). I'm only interested in discussing trucks that actually go somewhere. I've no interest in comparing the merits of whether some crap team would have been 4-13 vs 6-11. 10% would mean ~3 trucks at the QB position. I think thats low end but fair. Probably no more than 6 consistent trucks in the NFL right now, I suppose that depends on what you say as "consistent truck" to me, its getting more out of your roster than its skill level. Very few can actually do that but there are a decent chunk that can. Perhaps winning in the SB is what it takes to 'prove' it. Or even winning playoff games, however, I think these require many other factors to align, too many variables for my like. If I see a QB that consistently does a lot, with little, shows me that they have the rare talent and that they're not the issue, but moreso, the solution. 3 consistent, not 3 total, I think 6 a season is right as a mixture of consistent and inconsistent. I think some guys are trucks sometimes, I separate them from the consistent trucks like Brady, PManning, Rodgers....To me consistent trucks is simply a matter of time, I can't name seasons when those three weren't trucks. Playoff QB play is a different thing completely.
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Post by thetruth on Jan 22, 2022 17:24:16 GMT -5
10% would mean ~3 trucks at the QB position. I think thats low end but fair. Probably no more than 6 consistent trucks in the NFL right now, I suppose that depends on what you say as "consistent truck" to me, its getting more out of your roster than its skill level. Very few can actually do that but there are a lot that can. Perhaps proving to in the SB is what it takes to 'prove' it. Or even winning playoff games, however, I think that require many other factors to align, too many variables for my like. If I see a QB that consistently does a lot, with little, shows me that they have the rare talent and that they're not the issue, but moreso, the solution FWIW the only real guy I see doing this in college right now is Bryce Young... 2nd half against Georgia...if those guys don't drop perfectly thrown balls or on that pick 6 run a wrong option route they probably figure out a way to win that I really like him as a prospect. But he's going #1
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Post by thetruth on Jan 22, 2022 17:25:05 GMT -5
Who between Golloday/Toney would you trade for Renfrow? When Jones has the talent, which slowly but surely, all the excuses will go, is that when you will admit he isnt the guy? Davis Mills did more with less. Some more food for thought The question is Carr the guy? I don't think so. I think with him its fair to say you can win if you build around him. Not ideal, no.
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Post by PennState1 on Jan 22, 2022 17:26:25 GMT -5
Want the guy who helped develop Josh Allen and built a good o around him
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