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Post by TEM on Sept 14, 2022 13:41:55 GMT -5
That is not the point, He claims he knows what it is. The truth is; he can't say what it means It's well known that ever since ESPN introduced their version/metric of QB passer rating that: "QBR" = ESPN's QB passer rating "QB Rating," "QB Passing Rating" or "Passer Rating" = the long standing stat. It's also very safe to assume that if the value is over 100 then someone is clearly talking about the latter. The acronym means Quarterback rating.
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Post by Speedman on Sept 14, 2022 13:45:17 GMT -5
Very few players are worth that kind of money. I believe that at the end of this year Jones will be worth 30 to 35m per year. That money I stated is where Jones' market value extension would land. And I didn't ask you if you believe he would be worth that money at the end of this year. You targeted his first season and second/third seasons as the contet and said, "I would rather see him play like his first year than the last two." So my question is based on his first year play. If Jones plays like 2019 in 2022 are you giving him $35M per year (I'll entertain your number)? He is going to play better in 2022 and therefore worth 35m per year.
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Post by TEM on Sept 14, 2022 13:49:02 GMT -5
That is not the point, He claims he knows what it is. The truth is; he can't say what it means It's well known that ever since ESPN introduced their version/metric of QB passer rating that: "QBR" = ESPN's QB passer rating "QB Rating," "QB Passing Rating" or "Passer Rating" = the long standing stat. It's also very safe to assume that if the value is over 100 then someone is clearly talking about the latter. The acronym means Quarterback rating.
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Post by Roswell on Sept 14, 2022 14:05:51 GMT -5
This year with this coaching staff he proves that he is a franchise QB. I said either in this thread or a different one that the Judge regime shackled him and ****ed him up royally. He's terrible in the pocket. He doesn't feel the rush. He locks onto receivers. Every pass play looks like a fire drill with him. I've said this until I'm blue in the face but how do you coach that out of him? Maybe they can wave a magic wand and make it happen, but it's his main problem. He can make all the throws. He moves well. He works hard.....but he simply has no calm in the pocket. I don't care who your coaches are, by year 3 that needs to either get better or you become a back up. It's just hard to imagine to me that he can fix that this late in his career. But hope springs eternal I guess. I'm hoping that the calm comes from trusting his Oline, the playcalling and more 3rd and short yardage situations due to a better running game. We will see.
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Post by Speedman on Sept 14, 2022 14:11:06 GMT -5
Very few players are worth that kind of money. I believe that at the end of this year Jones will be worth 30 to 35m per year. That money I stated is where Jones' market value extension would land. And I didn't ask you if you believe he would be worth that money at the end of this year. You targeted his first season and second/third seasons as the contet and said, "I would rather see him play like his first year than the last two." So my question is based on his first year play. If Jones plays like 2019 in 2022 are you giving him $35M per year (I'll entertain your number)? Your question is a ridiculous one to answer. What QB is worth 40m per year after their 1st year?
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Post by Speedman on Sept 14, 2022 14:19:21 GMT -5
To me his pocket presence this week didn’t look as bad as people on this board are making it out to be. I believe it will get better the more he learns to trust the OL. The test of a QB isn't what he does with a clean pocket. Mark Sanchez looked great when he had little pressure. The real test is what they do in a collapsing pocket....because defenders rarely give a QB a clean pocket. They get paid too. Edge rushers are among the highest paid players in the league. That is where these arguments for DJ fall apart. "Wait until he trusts his OL"....."Wait until he has a running game"....."Wait until his receivers get separation" NFL QB's are expected to make plays even when they don't have everything go right. Your argument seems to be that Daniel Jones can't perform unless everything is great around him. I'm saying that's not what QB's are paid to be. Jones was under pressure more than 69% of his drop backs. Going 17 for 21 with one drop doesn’t support your thinking.
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Post by GameTime on Sept 14, 2022 14:29:30 GMT -5
connecting on 17 of 21 with one drop in there as well and 2 TDs is good day and doesnt show he is panicking in the pocket. I do think he does still have pocket awareness issues at times. I will say that even with Eli, or any QB for the NYGs, when ever they drop back I am always worried about a pick. Its how I am as a fan. When I watch other teams I dont really care so I watch with a different mindset. You'd think his career sample size is a much stronger indicator of DJ's accuracy, or lack thereof. Something tells me 80% completion wont last, and neither should his 177 yards passing, if we want to win consistently in a passing game that is the NFL. He wont be able to rely on brilliantly designed concepts all the time. He will have to show he can play equally well off-script, so far? not looking great in that regard. Would love to be proven wrong in this regard, I just dont see it with Daniel Jones. all valid points. No QB maintains an 80% completion and of course more than 177 yards will be needed most times. His career sample size comp % is 63 which is good. Allen's is 62%, Mahomes is 66% and Bradys is 64%. Naturally I am not comparing him overall to those QBs just pointing out that his comp% and accuracy are not his issues. I am not saying the kid is going to prove he is the franchise QB and I really only give him a 20 to 25% chance of accomplishing that. Nothing wrong with great concepts for an QBs and most/all successful QBs have those brilliant concepts to utilize. I hear what you are saying though and the kid has a long way to go and lots to prove
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Post by thetruth on Sept 14, 2022 15:07:27 GMT -5
You'd think his career sample size is a much stronger indicator of DJ's accuracy, or lack thereof. Something tells me 80% completion wont last, and neither should his 177 yards passing, if we want to win consistently in a passing game that is the NFL. He wont be able to rely on brilliantly designed concepts all the time. He will have to show he can play equally well off-script, so far? not looking great in that regard. Would love to be proven wrong in this regard, I just dont see it with Daniel Jones. all valid points. No QB maintains an 80% completion and of course more than 177 yards will be needed most times. His career sample size comp % is 63 which is good. Allen's is 62%, Mahomes is 66% and Bradys is 64%. Naturally I am not comparing him overall to those QBs just pointing out that his comp% and accuracy are not his issues. I am not saying the kid is going to prove he is the franchise QB and I really only give him a 20 to 25% chance of accomplishing that. Nothing wrong with great concepts for an QBs and most/all successful QBs have those brilliant concepts to utilize. I hear what you are saying though and the kid has a long way to go and lots to prove Looking at a combination of YPA and completion % gives you a pretty good indication of how much the QB is pushing the ball down the field and how accurate they are, relatively speaking. Pushing the ball downfield, accurately, is how you win For instance, DJ hovers around 6.6 YPA for his career Mark Sanchez had a 6.6 average, Sam Darnold had 6.5. Eli Manning was around 7.0 career but in 2011, he was 8.4 to give some context. Allen 7.1 (first two years were horrible but he's playing fantastic the past 2); Tom Brady 7.5 (NFL was a different game in terms of passing and what you can/can't do in Brady's/Elis career); Mahomes 8.1.Mahomes having a 66% completion percentage coupled with a 8.1 YPA is exceptional. I find that true franchise QB's maintain a pretty high YPA w/ a good/great accuracy %. DJ is relatively poor in both
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Post by TEM on Sept 14, 2022 15:36:09 GMT -5
The acronym means Quarterback rating. Way to ignore the entire gist of the post. The Giants wrote Quarterback rating. Does that not stand for QBR . I will say it again. The NFL has been using "Quarterback rating" QBR long before ESPN existed.
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Post by TEM on Sept 14, 2022 15:42:52 GMT -5
Way to ignore the entire gist of the post. The Giants wrote Quarterback rating. Does that not stand for QBR . I will say it again. The NFL has been using "Quarterback rating" QBR long before ESPN existed. Now If ESPN owns the market on QBR . Why didn't the team write Passer Rating instead 0f Quarterback rating ? You know what is so ironically stupid about this. 2 people are telling me I am wrong about something The Giants wrote during their post-game
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Post by Morehead State on Sept 14, 2022 16:58:04 GMT -5
The test of a QB isn't what he does with a clean pocket. Mark Sanchez looked great when he had little pressure. The real test is what they do in a collapsing pocket....because defenders rarely give a QB a clean pocket. They get paid too. Edge rushers are among the highest paid players in the league. That is where these arguments for DJ fall apart. "Wait until he trusts his OL"....."Wait until he has a running game"....."Wait until his receivers get separation" NFL QB's are expected to make plays even when they don't have everything go right. Your argument seems to be that Daniel Jones can't perform unless everything is great around him. I'm saying that's not what QB's are paid to be. Jones was under pressure more than 69% of his drop backs. Going 17 for 21 with one drop doesn’t support your thinking. These stats don't seem especially relevant to me. Most throws were very short. When I looked at DJ on Sunday, I saw the same guy I've seen for 3 years. I saw no break through play. He can make plays, and then he makes huge mistakes. He's Daniel Jones with all the good and bad that comes with it. I just don't think this new regime will think that's near good enough.
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Post by giantlegacy on Sept 14, 2022 17:32:08 GMT -5
Circular arguments are Circular
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giantsalmon
Starter
Came over from a defunct board. Formerly LakeO Giant fan
Posts: 3,904
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Post by giantsalmon on Sept 14, 2022 18:59:14 GMT -5
I don't know, no player is worth what they earn these days at the QB position--but thats what the market is for this wildly popular spectator sport. So, if I had to script how this all goes down- Jones shows great progress and agrees to an extension that doesn't hurt the cap. It gives NYG flexibility to sign FAs and pay homegrown ones. A winning culture is built, and endless dollars come to the players sharp enough to see the big picture. Winning for NYG would ensure outside income for years to come during and after playing days. This is about winning for ownership, the coaches, the GM, and SHOULD be for the fans. Not about being right whether Jones can/should be the guy. If they win, and more importantly compete in every game, I just don't see how they roll the dice and start over again with a kid QB that may or may not be a better pro.
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miggs
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Post by miggs on Sept 14, 2022 21:44:34 GMT -5
When Daboll can rely on the Giants offensive line to protect Jones, he'll will throw for far more yardage as more pass plays will run. When Jones has time to throw, he's very accurate throwing the ball. He's finally playing in a good offensive system. Believe he has a huge upside. Completing 17-21 passes is an indication of that.
The Giants were successful running the ball against the Titans, and as a result, less than 40 percent of all the Giants plays were passes.
Jones has started off the season completing 80 percent of his passes.
the Giants running game does slow an opponents pass rush. The Giants need to play throughout the game as they did in the second half of the Titans game.
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Post by giantsmets on Sept 15, 2022 6:41:11 GMT -5
I think everyone on this board hopes you are right, but most of us can't see it happening. I would love nothing more than for him to be a franchise QB, and prove all of us wrong. But his pocket presence scares the hell out of me every time he drops back. To me his pocket presence this week didn’t look as bad as people on this board are making it out to be. I believe it will get better the more he learns to trust the OL. I would agree - especially when you consider he was under pressure 69% of the time on his drop backs.
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Post by GameTime on Sept 15, 2022 7:35:59 GMT -5
- Jones had an efficient day with several key plays and ONE big mistake. He also missed a few reads but all QBs do that. - Jones does have pocket awareness issues. You can try and explain it away but we all know that. - Jones is an accurate QB with a well above average arm and can make all the throws. - Jones is getting better at looking off DBs and has even worked pump fakes and shoulder twitches in way more often. - Jones showed in the last game that a huge mistake will not take him down for the game. He was a crucial part of the go ahead drive. The kid has a ways to go to achieve the goal of becoming the NYGs franchise QB. I honestly think he will have a good season but not enough to be to get the franchise nod for this team. With that said I am rooting hard for him to prove that statement wrong. The Titans game didnt hurt that goal at all. In fact it inched him towards that goal. He and the NYGs have 16 more games to see what he, this staff and this roster are made of. I am looking forward to it......for now.... Actual Jones earning the franchise label at the end of this season is the single biggest and best thing that could come out of Daboll's first year as the HC.
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Post by hadenough on Sept 15, 2022 7:48:22 GMT -5
This may be my last post on Jones, because I don’t think he’s very good. I think he holds the team back. Jones has issues staring down recivers, pocket awareness, etc., but his biggest issue are throws he doesn’t make.
There was a play early in the game, wide open WR and Jones rolls and misses. Punt. The Barkley INT. I believe Sills was wide open for a TD and didn’t see him. Another play had people open deep with time to throw and Jones checked down to Saquon for a couple yards.
It continually happens with Jones. He misses too many plays during games that other QBs see and make. And that’s the difference between Giants scoring and not being able to score.
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Post by GameTime on Sept 15, 2022 7:51:26 GMT -5
This may be my last post on Jones, because I don’t think he’s very good. I think he holds the team back. Jones has issues staring down recivers, pocket awareness, etc., but his biggest issue are throws he doesn’t make. There was a play early in the game, wide open WR and Jones rolls and misses. Punt. The Barkley INT. I believe Sills was wide open for a TD and didn’t see him. Another play had people open deep with time to throw and Jones checked down to Saquon for a couple yards. It continually happens with Jones. He misses too many plays during games that other QBs see and make. And that’s the difference between Giants scoring and not being able to score. I agree....to a degree. Do you analyze other QBs games like you do Jones'? I bet if you did you'd see the same very often. With that said he does need to read better at times. I am not trying to convince you of anything just point something out.
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Post by giantlegacy on Sept 15, 2022 7:54:08 GMT -5
This may be my last post on Jones, because I don’t think he’s very good. I think he holds the team back. Jones has issues staring down recivers, pocket awareness, etc., but his biggest issue are throws he doesn’t make. There was a play early in the game, wide open WR and Jones rolls and misses. Punt. The Barkley INT. I believe Sills was wide open for a TD and didn’t see him. Another play had people open deep with time to throw and Jones checked down to Saquon for a couple yards. It continually happens with Jones. He misses too many plays during games that other QBs see and make. And that’s the difference between Giants scoring and not being able to score. I agree....to a degree. Do you analyze other QBs games like you do Jones'? I bet if you did you'd see the same very often. With that said he does need to read better at times. I am not trying to convince you of anything just point something out. We are also running clear out routes that are like reads 3 or 4 in the progression...Sheppard was like the 3rd read on his td..(he was eyeballing an open Bellinger before he spotted Shep)
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Post by GameTime on Sept 15, 2022 8:06:42 GMT -5
I agree....to a degree. Do you analyze other QBs games like you do Jones'? I bet if you did you'd see the same very often. With that said he does need to read better at times. I am not trying to convince you of anything just point something out. We are also running clear out routes that are like reads 3 or 4 in the progression...Sheppard was like the 3rd read on his td..(he was eyeballing an open Bellinger before he spotted Shep) yeah I know...I watched Skinner's break down too. Bottom line is on the check down to Barkely where Sills was open deep and I think Shep on the other side I would really love to hear Jones' take in the film room with his coaches. He may just simply say..."yeah...I ****ing missed that one" Jones is playing got his career and also he wants to be the guy for the NYGs and Daboll. Its a tough task in his situation to play all out but in the back of your mind is "dont **** up". If he comes through this season and reaches that franchise goal he will be a n incredible QB for achieving that IMO. Tough road though.
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Post by Fletch842 on Sept 15, 2022 8:46:39 GMT -5
I agree....to a degree. Do you analyze other QBs games like you do Jones'? I bet if you did you'd see the same very often. With that said he does need to read better at times. I am not trying to convince you of anything just point something out. We are also running clear out routes that are like reads 3 or 4 in the progression...Sheppard was like the 3rd read on his td..(he was eyeballing an open Bellinger before he spotted Shep) that play to Shep was executed to perfection. If he continues to do that on a more consistent basis, we'll be in a really good place.
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Post by giantlegacy on Sept 15, 2022 8:59:09 GMT -5
We are also running clear out routes that are like reads 3 or 4 in the progression...Sheppard was like the 3rd read on his td..(he was eyeballing an open Bellinger before he spotted Shep) that play to Shep was executed to perfection. If he continues to do that on a more consistent basis, we'll be in a really good place. What's great about these clear put routes is that it's random who runs them and from what position (outside or slot) so teams have to respect this...we hit on one already This will force teams into having to defend every blade of grass.. Meaning Barkley and the human joystick dynamic playmakers will feast
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Post by hadenough on Sept 15, 2022 13:40:08 GMT -5
This may be my last post on Jones, because I don’t think he’s very good. I think he holds the team back. Jones has issues staring down recivers, pocket awareness, etc., but his biggest issue are throws he doesn’t make. There was a play early in the game, wide open WR and Jones rolls and misses. Punt. The Barkley INT. I believe Sills was wide open for a TD and didn’t see him. Another play had people open deep with time to throw and Jones checked down to Saquon for a couple yards. It continually happens with Jones. He misses too many plays during games that other QBs see and make. And that’s the difference between Giants scoring and not being able to score. I agree....to a degree. Do you analyze other QBs games like you do Jones'? I bet if you did you'd see the same very often. With that said he does need to read better at times. I am not trying to convince you of anything just point something out. For the most part…yes. I’ve always liked to see what better QBs do. All QBs miss people from time to time. The worst ones miss them often.
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