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Post by Kase1 on Nov 14, 2023 18:49:05 GMT -5
Caleb has talent but what concerns me is that he holds on to the ball too long. He has one of the longest time to throws in the pocket in all of college football...up near 3.5 seconds. He's a fumbler on top of that and often turns his eyes away from the defense and runs backwards in the pocket. Just hard to calculate how that translates to the pros, especially to a team that has a bad offensive line. To be fair, USC has a MUCH worse line than us
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Post by Kase1 on Nov 14, 2023 18:55:23 GMT -5
Little early in their careers to call them "failed" IMO Well, maybe not Murray yet, but Mayfield is on team 4 in 5 years. As a #1 overall pick, that's a bust. I still think he would be a decent option here though. He has talent. He certainly hasn't lived up to his draft position, but he seems to be a decent QB, and if we didn't draft a qb, I'd be OK with Baker
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Post by jmike on Nov 15, 2023 9:23:18 GMT -5
Little early in their careers to call them "failed" IMO Well, maybe not Murray yet, but Mayfield is on team 4 in 5 years. As a #1 overall pick, that's a bust. I still think he would be a decent option here though. He has talent. I was not opposed to letting Jones walk this off-season and thought Mayfield would be a good option to hold the spot for a year.
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giantsalmon
Starter
Came over from a defunct board. Formerly LakeO Giant fan
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Post by giantsalmon on Nov 15, 2023 9:32:31 GMT -5
Well, maybe not Murray yet, but Mayfield is on team 4 in 5 years. As a #1 overall pick, that's a bust. I still think he would be a decent option here though. He has talent. I was not opposed to letting Jones walk this off-season and thought Mayfield would be a good option to hold the spot for a year. I do like his fireball personality. Perhaps now that he has been around the block he could survive NY press and fans.
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Post by jmike on Nov 15, 2023 11:28:00 GMT -5
I was not opposed to letting Jones walk this off-season and thought Mayfield would be a good option to hold the spot for a year. I do like his fireball personality. Perhaps now that he has been around the block he could survive NY press and fans. Meh, he seems like an asshole, but I don't particularly care about that. He's been in the league long enough and seen his fair share of media issues, that the media is unlikely to effect his performance. Whether or not that relationship with the media is contentious.
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Post by Analyst on Nov 15, 2023 11:31:42 GMT -5
Well, maybe not Murray yet, but Mayfield is on team 4 in 5 years. As a #1 overall pick, that's a bust. I still think he would be a decent option here though. He has talent. I was not opposed to letting Jones walk this off-season and thought Mayfield would be a good option to hold the spot for a year. Exactly. I was saying DJ accepts a 3 year, $60/$75M deal, with $30/$35M guaranteed, giving us an easy bail out after 2023, Or we sign Baker Mayfield (1yr, $4M w/ Bucs) or Gardner Minshew (1yr, $3.5M w/ Indy) on a 1 year deal here to battle Tyrod Taylor for the starting spot, giving us a ton more cap space, and draft a QB in the mid later rounds last year (I liked Hendon Hooker). Aidan O'Connell in the 4th, Dorian Thompson-Robinson in the 5th, Tanner McKee in the 6th, Max Duggan in the 7th... I guess we did get our starting QB now Tommy DeVito undrafted. Then go in on 2024 for a QB early, or re-up Taylor or Minshew/Mayfield depending on how they played. . Seems like the right move now doesn't it?
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Post by McCherry on Nov 15, 2023 11:32:00 GMT -5
Maybe as a backup QB if DJ retires. Would rather Mayfield if we are trying failed #1 QB picks. Little early in their careers to call them "failed" IMO A journeyman like Mayfield you can absolutely call a failed QB.
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Post by imgrate on Nov 15, 2023 11:53:22 GMT -5
I was not opposed to letting Jones walk this off-season and thought Mayfield would be a good option to hold the spot for a year. Exactly. I was saying DJ accepts a 3 year, $60/$75M deal, with $30/$35M guaranteed, giving us an easy bail out after 2023, Or we sign Baker Mayfield (1yr, $4M w/ Bucs) or Gardner Minshew (1yr, $3.5M w/ Indy) on a 1 year deal here to battle Tyrod Taylor for the starting spot, giving us a ton more cap space, and draft a QB in the mid later rounds last year (I liked Hendon Hooker). Aidan O'Connell in the 4th, Dorian Thompson-Robinson in the 5th, Tanner McKee in the 6th, Max Duggan in the 7th... I guess we did get our starting QB now Tommy DeVito undrafted. Then go in on 2024 for a QB early, or re-up Taylor or Minshew/Mayfield depending on how they played. . Seems like the right move now doesn't it? It’s absolutely what we should've done. I really don’t get the thought process of signing DJ to the contract that we did. In what scenario would it have worked out?
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Post by jmike on Nov 15, 2023 12:16:41 GMT -5
Exactly. I was saying DJ accepts a 3 year, $60/$75M deal, with $30/$35M guaranteed, giving us an easy bail out after 2023, Or we sign Baker Mayfield (1yr, $4M w/ Bucs) or Gardner Minshew (1yr, $3.5M w/ Indy) on a 1 year deal here to battle Tyrod Taylor for the starting spot, giving us a ton more cap space, and draft a QB in the mid later rounds last year (I liked Hendon Hooker). Aidan O'Connell in the 4th, Dorian Thompson-Robinson in the 5th, Tanner McKee in the 6th, Max Duggan in the 7th... I guess we did get our starting QB now Tommy DeVito undrafted. Then go in on 2024 for a QB early, or re-up Taylor or Minshew/Mayfield depending on how they played. . Seems like the right move now doesn't it? It’s absolutely what we should've done. I really don’t get the thought process of signing DJ to the contract that we did. In what scenario would it have worked out? If he built on his improvement in 2022 and the OL becomes at least solid.
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Post by jimmieray on Nov 15, 2023 12:39:12 GMT -5
Little early in their careers to call them "failed" IMO A journeyman like Mayfield you can absolutely call a failed QB. Wasn't it exposed that he was not seeing / ignoring wide open receivers?
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Post by Analyst on Nov 15, 2023 12:40:43 GMT -5
Exactly. I was saying DJ accepts a 3 year, $60/$75M deal, with $30/$35M guaranteed, giving us an easy bail out after 2023, Or we sign Baker Mayfield (1yr, $4M w/ Bucs) or Gardner Minshew (1yr, $3.5M w/ Indy) on a 1 year deal here to battle Tyrod Taylor for the starting spot, giving us a ton more cap space, and draft a QB in the mid later rounds last year (I liked Hendon Hooker). Aidan O'Connell in the 4th, Dorian Thompson-Robinson in the 5th, Tanner McKee in the 6th, Max Duggan in the 7th... I guess we did get our starting QB now Tommy DeVito undrafted. Then go in on 2024 for a QB early, or re-up Taylor or Minshew/Mayfield depending on how they played. . Seems like the right move now doesn't it? It’s absolutely what we should've done. I really don’t get the thought process of signing DJ to the contract that we did. In what scenario would it have worked out? IMO, if DJ was out in the open market, he would have gotten a similar 1 year offer from other clubs as Minshew and Mayfield did. Maybe a little bit more coming off that playoff win vs Minny although the loss vs Philly crushed him. So I would think he would have gotten a 1 year $5M offer somewhere to prove himself just like those 2. Instead we gave him a 4 year $160M deal...
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Post by imgrate on Nov 15, 2023 12:44:30 GMT -5
It’s absolutely what we should've done. I really don’t get the thought process of signing DJ to the contract that we did. In what scenario would it have worked out? If he built on his improvement in 2022 and the OL becomes at least solid. How much improvement would be enough for you? To me, unless he had a huge jump, like up to mahomes ish level, then you’re not getting good value
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Post by imgrate on Nov 15, 2023 12:47:43 GMT -5
It’s absolutely what we should've done. I really don’t get the thought process of signing DJ to the contract that we did. In what scenario would it have worked out? IMO, if DJ was out in the open market, he would have gotten a similar 1 year offer from other clubs as Minshew and Mayfield did. Maybe a little bit more coming off that playoff win vs Minny although the loss vs Philly crushed him. So I would think he would have gotten a 1 year $5M offer somewhere to prove himself just like those 2. Instead we gave him a 4 year $160M deal... Yea I have no friggin clue how much other teams valued him. I could see the scenario you mention or as much as cousins got when he hit fa (adjusted for inflation)
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Post by jmike on Nov 15, 2023 12:51:21 GMT -5
If he built on his improvement in 2022 and the OL becomes at least solid. How much improvement would be enough for you? To me, unless he had a huge jump, like up to mahomes ish level, then you’re not getting good value Not something I can quantify. You asked how it would work out, that is how. QBs can play a long time, if Jones made steady and consistent improvement YOY and the line was able to be a satisfactory unit, we would be fine. Neither occurred. I didn't see a reason to expect Jones to be better than he showed last season, but I am rather optimistic on such things and figured that Daboll saw more from Jones in the future. I'm not one to throw a fit when the Giants don't do what I think they should. Unfortunately, going back the last decade or so, if they had done what I think they should have done, they would be a much better team today than they currently are; and I am not the only one here that can say that. Which is fairly sad considering I'm just some idiot fan and they are professionals at this. There is no reason my ideas or many others' ideas just on this board alone are better than the Giants ideas of what they should do.
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Modog
Special Teams
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Post by Modog on Nov 15, 2023 12:53:57 GMT -5
Little early in their careers to call them "failed" IMO A journeyman like Mayfield you can absolutely call a failed QB. In your eyes Jones is not a failed QB because hes not a journeyman? Both Mayfield and Minshew are better than Danny Mediocrity
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Post by jmike on Nov 15, 2023 13:34:21 GMT -5
A journeyman like Mayfield you can absolutely call a failed QB. In your eyes Jones is not a failed QB because hes not a journeyman? Both Mayfield and Minshew are better than Danny Mediocrity
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Nov 15, 2023 13:59:14 GMT -5
Caleb has talent but what concerns me is that he holds on to the ball too long. He has one of the longest time to throws in the pocket in all of college football...up near 3.5 seconds. He's a fumbler on top of that and often turns his eyes away from the defense and runs backwards in the pocket. Just hard to calculate how that translates to the pros, especially to a team that has a bad offensive line. To be fair, USC has a MUCH worse line than us from a pure arm talent stand point he has the best arm talent in this draft when he is being time he holds it to long thats what hurts him. He doesn't have the talent around him that he had last year so it is more the Caleb Williams show when it comes to USC. The Question I have would his father allow him to play for the Giants if they drafted him, it seems he is willing to do what ever he can to make sure his son is in as good a situation he can find. The days of a guy like Eli wanting to come to the Giants over a SoCal team is over, the shine is off this franchise after 12 long years of more losing than winning has taken it's toll, that said a kid comes here and this thing gets turned around he will be the king of the NFL look at how nuts the NFL went with the Giants going 9-7-1.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Nov 15, 2023 14:06:48 GMT -5
A journeyman like Mayfield you can absolutely call a failed QB. Wasn't it exposed that he was not seeing / ignoring wide open receivers? Some of those WRs have been in Jones no fly zone places he chooses or at least seems to choose not to throw the wide side of the field or field side or the hole shots some guys just don't have the arm talent to get it done. It has become a big issue where teams don't defend those areas making the Giants offense simply easy to defend.
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Post by McCherry on Nov 15, 2023 14:21:00 GMT -5
A journeyman like Mayfield you can absolutely call a failed QB. Wasn't it exposed that he was not seeing / ignoring wide open receivers? Among other things. The guy has been on 4 teams in 7 years. Soon to be 5. His career has a bust in every sense of the word.
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Post by inconvenientruth on Nov 15, 2023 14:29:20 GMT -5
Wasn't it exposed that he was not seeing / ignoring wide open receivers? Among other things. The guy has been on 4 teams in 7 years. Soon to be 5. His career has a bust in every sense of the word. He definitely wasn't a hit, but his career statistics dwarf Daniel Jones, for perspective. If DJ went to the Browns he's id be in worse situation than Mayfield. Where you get drafted really matters.
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Post by imgrate on Nov 15, 2023 15:07:36 GMT -5
How much improvement would be enough for you? To me, unless he had a huge jump, like up to mahomes ish level, then you’re not getting good value Not something I can quantify. You asked how it would work out, that is how. QBs can play a long time, if Jones made steady and consistent improvement YOY and the line was able to be a satisfactory unit, we would be fine. Neither occurred. I didn't see a reason to expect Jones to be better than he showed last season, but I am rather optimistic on such things and figured that Daboll saw more from Jones in the future. I'm not one to throw a fit when the Giants don't do what I think they should. Unfortunately, going back the last decade or so, if they had done what I think they should have done, they would be a much better team today than they currently are; and I am not the only one here that can say that. Which is fairly sad considering I'm just some idiot fan and they are professionals at this. There is no reason my ideas or many others' ideas just on this board alone are better than the Giants ideas of what they should do. I guess I see it as if he’s taking up that much cap space, then it’s virtually impossible to surround him with sufficient talent, unless he plays at an extremely high level. And yes, agreed, pretty crazy just how terrible the personnel decision making has been.
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Post by jmike on Nov 15, 2023 15:19:31 GMT -5
Wasn't it exposed that he was not seeing / ignoring wide open receivers? Among other things. The guy has been on 4 teams in 7 years. Soon to be 5. His career has a bust in every sense of the word. He is a bust. But he is also a serviceable starter when you don't have a guy. Would we be in a worse place right now with Baker starting this season? I doubt it. He's not a guy I would bank on for the future, but a one year deal, or holding the spot until a young player is ready, seem like good fits for him. When you play football, someone has to start at QB. When you don't have a guy, finding a reasonably priced vet that won't torpedo your offense or the development of other players is the best way to go. Baker is good enough to be that guy and a better option than others.
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Post by jmike on Nov 15, 2023 15:24:31 GMT -5
Not something I can quantify. You asked how it would work out, that is how. QBs can play a long time, if Jones made steady and consistent improvement YOY and the line was able to be a satisfactory unit, we would be fine. Neither occurred. I didn't see a reason to expect Jones to be better than he showed last season, but I am rather optimistic on such things and figured that Daboll saw more from Jones in the future. I'm not one to throw a fit when the Giants don't do what I think they should. Unfortunately, going back the last decade or so, if they had done what I think they should have done, they would be a much better team today than they currently are; and I am not the only one here that can say that. Which is fairly sad considering I'm just some idiot fan and they are professionals at this. There is no reason my ideas or many others' ideas just on this board alone are better than the Giants ideas of what they should do. I guess I see it as if he’s taking up that much cap space, then it’s virtually impossible to surround him with sufficient talent, unless he plays at an extremely high level. And yes, agreed, pretty crazy just how terrible the personnel decision making has been. He's really not taking up too much cap space if he is performing at an improved level from last season. More than we would like, maybe, but it isn't crippling. It is though a waste of cap space because he isn't performing. I wanted to sign him to a 3 yr deal with 27-30mm AAV with an easy out after 1. If he wants more, see ya bye-bye.
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Post by imgrate on Nov 15, 2023 15:40:31 GMT -5
I guess I see it as if he’s taking up that much cap space, then it’s virtually impossible to surround him with sufficient talent, unless he plays at an extremely high level. And yes, agreed, pretty crazy just how terrible the personnel decision making has been. He's really not taking up too much cap space if he is performing at an improved level from last season. More than we would like, maybe, but it isn't crippling. It is though a waste of cap space because he isn't performing. I wanted to sign him to a 3 yr deal with 27-30mm AAV with an easy out after 1. If he wants more, see ya bye-bye. This year he isnt. Next year, his cap hit is 47mill, following year would’ve been 41mill, and year after is 50+
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Post by jmike on Nov 15, 2023 16:01:33 GMT -5
He's really not taking up too much cap space if he is performing at an improved level from last season. More than we would like, maybe, but it isn't crippling. It is though a waste of cap space because he isn't performing. I wanted to sign him to a 3 yr deal with 27-30mm AAV with an easy out after 1. If he wants more, see ya bye-bye. This year he isnt. Next year, his cap hit is 47mill, following year would’ve been 41mill, and year after is 50+ All can be restructured. It is a good QB contract if the QB is performing. It is only a problem because he isn't.
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Post by McCherry on Nov 15, 2023 17:21:30 GMT -5
Among other things. The guy has been on 4 teams in 7 years. Soon to be 5. His career has a bust in every sense of the word. He is a bust. But he is also a serviceable starter when you don't have a guy. Would we be in a worse place right now with Baker starting this season? I doubt it. He's not a guy I would bank on for the future, but a one year deal, or holding the spot until a young player is ready, seem like good fits for him. When you play football, someone has to start at QB. When you don't have a guy, finding a reasonably priced vet that won't torpedo your offense or the development of other players is the best way to go. Baker is good enough to be that guy and a better option than others. I agree on that. But if we're discussing him as a potential backup next year, I'm not sure he's the right fit. If you're Mayfield, would you want to come here knowing you're going to lose your job to a rookie at any week? Not to mention, Jones still hanging around. I'm sure he doesn't want to keep bouncing around, and would like to be in a place where he can compete for a starting job with some kind of future and stability. Also, is he a willing teacher and mentor? I'm not sure about that either. Based on his season, he'll likely have some better offers with better opportunities than here.
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Post by Morehead State on Nov 15, 2023 18:30:09 GMT -5
Wasn't it exposed that he was not seeing / ignoring wide open receivers? Among other things. The guy has been on 4 teams in 7 years. Soon to be 5. His career has a bust in every sense of the word. He's a starting QB in the NFL. And he's had a very good season. 9 games.....2100+ yards, 14 TD's and 5 picks. If our guy did that after 9 games we'd be comparing him to Mahommes.
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Post by McCherry on Nov 15, 2023 18:40:55 GMT -5
Among other things. The guy has been on 4 teams in 7 years. Soon to be 5. His career has a bust in every sense of the word. He's a starting QB in the NFL. And he's had a very good season. 9 games.....2100+ yards, 14 TD's and 5 picks. If our guy did that after 9 games we'd be comparing him to Mahommes. Maybe. As a #1 overall pick Mayfield has been an epic bust. I'm not sure what Daniel Jones has to do with it.
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Post by jmike on Nov 16, 2023 8:43:07 GMT -5
He is a bust. But he is also a serviceable starter when you don't have a guy. Would we be in a worse place right now with Baker starting this season? I doubt it. He's not a guy I would bank on for the future, but a one year deal, or holding the spot until a young player is ready, seem like good fits for him. When you play football, someone has to start at QB. When you don't have a guy, finding a reasonably priced vet that won't torpedo your offense or the development of other players is the best way to go. Baker is good enough to be that guy and a better option than others. I agree on that. But if we're discussing him as a potential backup next year, I'm not sure he's the right fit. If you're Mayfield, would you want to come here knowing you're going to lose your job to a rookie at any week? Not to mention, Jones still hanging around. I'm sure he doesn't want to keep bouncing around, and would like to be in a place where he can compete for a starting job with some kind of future and stability. Also, is he a willing teacher and mentor? I'm not sure about that either. Based on his season, he'll likely have some better offers with better opportunities than here. I wasn't discussing him has a back-up. I was discussing him as an alternative to signing Jones to a multi-year deal this past off-season.
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Post by Morehead State on Nov 16, 2023 9:56:45 GMT -5
He's a starting QB in the NFL. And he's had a very good season. 9 games.....2100+ yards, 14 TD's and 5 picks. If our guy did that after 9 games we'd be comparing him to Mahommes. Maybe. As a #1 overall pick Mayfield has been an epic bust. I'm not sure what Daniel Jones has to do with it. In my view...if a guy is a starter for 7 years....he's not a bust. He's definitely not had the success the Browns thought he would, but he is a solid NFL QB. The guy's had like 9 OC's and 7 HC's for God's sake. I think he gets a bad rap.
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