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Post by Morehead State on Aug 21, 2019 16:58:32 GMT -5
Was our O line better in 2017 when we won 3 games? When we had Ereck Flowers at LT?
What IS your point here?
That's exactly what I was asking. So let's review.....
Saquan Barkley was our RB last year. We had Odell for most of the season as opposed to having him injured for most of 2017. Nick Solder was our LT vs. Ereck Flowers in 2017. Will Hernandez was our LG vs. and injured Pugh and then who knows after he couldn't play anymore.
But I think we can agree that everything around Eli was better in 2018. Running game, WR's and Oline.....even the coaching was better.
yet Eli was sacked 16 more times. What's wrong with this picture?
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Post by TEM on Aug 21, 2019 17:05:01 GMT -5
That's exactly what I was asking. So let's review.....
Saquan Barkley was our RB last year. We had Odell for most of the season as opposed to having him injured for most of 2017. Nick Solder was our LT vs. Ereck Flowers in 2017. Will Hernandez was our LG vs. and injured Pugh and then who knows after he couldn't play anymore.
But I think we can agree that everything around Eli was better in 2018. Running game, WR's and Oline.....even the coaching was better.
yet Eli was sacked 16 more times. What's wrong with this picture?
Did you conveniently leave out. The Coach and GM not benched but cut the entire right side of the O-line . How bad did it have to be not even to be considered tradable?
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Post by TCHOF on Aug 21, 2019 19:37:14 GMT -5
Let's say that your point is true. Let's say for arguments sake that last year he didn't have the best running back/WR/TE combo that any Giant QB ever had. He did. Let's say his Oline wasn't much better than the year before. It was. And let's say five wins is solely on the D not getting it done. It wasn't. Would you agree, considering the changes made, that this year is finally a "put up or shut up" year for Manning? Beckham, Engram and Barkley were the best WR, TE, RB combo in Giants history.... Said no-one ever. Eli was sacked 16 more times last year than the previous. Let's just start with some correct facts, please. How can you possibly be wrong on every football related post? I don’t think football is your thing dude
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Post by DandyDon on Aug 21, 2019 22:23:55 GMT -5
so once again its all Eli's fault or its not Eli's fault... so funny... its a team game...but only when its not A good NFL QB needs to be able to "lift his team up." If he cant levitate his team, he is worthless, regardless of any talent around him. At least that's what I hear.
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 21, 2019 22:27:43 GMT -5
so once again its all Eli's fault or its not Eli's fault... so funny... its a team game...but only when its not A good NFL QB needs to be able to "lift his team up." If he cant levitate his team, he is worthless, regardless of any talent around him. At least that's what I hear. I didn't say that. But 8-24 is horrific.
I've said it before. Eli is like Tofu. He takes on the flavor of his team. He raises no ones game. He lifts no one up. He just fades with the rest of the team.
If that's good enough for you...that is your privilege.
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Post by DandyDon on Aug 21, 2019 22:45:50 GMT -5
A good NFL QB needs to be able to "lift his team up." If he cant levitate his team, he is worthless, regardless of any talent around him. At least that's what I hear. I didn't say that. But 8-24 is horrific.
I've said it before. Eli is like Tofu. He takes on the flavor of his team. He raises no ones game. He lifts no one up. He just fades with the rest of the team.
If that's good enough for you...that is your privilege.
I guess I could continue to ask what QBs recently "lifted their team up" to multiple superbowls. You won't answer, but there is really only one choice. So let me ask you this: All other things being equal, if Bill Belichick was promoted to total control (GM/HC) of the Giants the way he is in NE, do you think Eli would have won more rings? Or do you really believe Brady is that much better than Eli?
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 21, 2019 23:03:21 GMT -5
I didn't say that. But 8-24 is horrific.
I've said it before. Eli is like Tofu. He takes on the flavor of his team. He raises no ones game. He lifts no one up. He just fades with the rest of the team.
If that's good enough for you...that is your privilege.
I guess I could continue to ask what QBs recently "lifted their team up" to multiple superbowls. You won't answer, but there is really only one choice. So let me ask you this: All other things being equal, if Bill Belichick was promoted to total control (GM/HC) of the Giants the way he is in NE, do you think Eli would have won more rings? Or do you really believe Brady is that much better than Eli? You are suggesting that 2007 or 2011 Eli is still out there. 2011 Eli could move laterally in the pocket to buy time. He didn't look to go down once the pass rush starts bearing down. OK so now he has a dump off option to Saquan. Well I promise defenses are gearing for that in 2019.
Eli hasn't done anything to lift his team up in the last 6 years. If your point is that 2011 Eli is still out there on the field I would say you are dreaming.
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Post by DandyDon on Aug 21, 2019 23:15:20 GMT -5
I guess I could continue to ask what QBs recently "lifted their team up" to multiple superbowls. You won't answer, but there is really only one choice. So let me ask you this: All other things being equal, if Bill Belichick was promoted to total control (GM/HC) of the Giants the way he is in NE, do you think Eli would have won more rings? Or do you really believe Brady is that much better than Eli? You are suggesting that 2007 or 2011 Eli is still out there. 2011 Eli could move laterally in the pocket to buy time. He didn't look to go down once the pass rush starts bearing down. OK so now he has a dump off option to Saquan. Well I promise defenses are gearing for that in 2019.
Eli hasn't done anything to lift his team up in the last 6 years. If your point is that 2011 Eli is still out there on the field I would say you are dreaming.
I'm not suggesting anything. I asked you a simple question, but it doesnt surprise me that you didnt respond to my post. That's what you do, just keep blathering on about a QBs inability "lift his team up." Let me ask you this: What QBs aside from Brady do you think "lifted his team up" in the past 10 years?
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 21, 2019 23:28:00 GMT -5
You are suggesting that 2007 or 2011 Eli is still out there. 2011 Eli could move laterally in the pocket to buy time. He didn't look to go down once the pass rush starts bearing down. OK so now he has a dump off option to Saquan. Well I promise defenses are gearing for that in 2019.
Eli hasn't done anything to lift his team up in the last 6 years. If your point is that 2011 Eli is still out there on the field I would say you are dreaming.
I'm not suggesting anything. I asked you a simple question, but it doesnt surprise me that you didnt respond to my post. That's what you do, just keep blathering on about a QBs inability "lift his team up." Let me ask you this: What QBs aside from Brady do you think "lifted his team up" in the past 10 years? Peyton Manning, Matt Ryan, Desean Watson, Aaron Rodgers,Tony Romo, Dak Prescott, Derek Carr, Alex Smith, Tom Brady, Cam Newton, Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Carson Palmer, Andrew Luck, Baker Mayfield, Joe Flacco, Carson Wentz, Jarrod Goff.
That's just in the first breath. Don't believe it with some of these guys? Check their team records when they got hurt as opposed to when they were playing. Check what happened to the Cards when Palmer got hurt,...or Carr when he was an MVP candidate. They fell off the planet after he got hurt. Check what happened to the Texans when Watson blew out his knee. What happened to the Cowboys when Romo got hurt? They went from 12-4 to 4-12. Then check what happened when Prescott started. What happened to the Colts when Luck got hurt? then what happened when he came back last season?
You know what happened to the those teams without that guy to lift them up? They had similar success as we did WITH Eli.
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Post by TEM on Aug 22, 2019 6:02:19 GMT -5
It is funny. Only 4 out of the 19 have won in the past 10 years. Similar success? I think not. Eli won a SB in the past 10 years and not mentioned. It is just as funny as someone being serious in answering the sun goes around the earth, and tries to be convincing about it, Really it's on that scale of hilarious.
Eli beat 4 of the above mentioned to win the SB . The post is truly that kind of priceless.
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Post by GameTime on Aug 22, 2019 6:17:24 GMT -5
I didn't say that. But 8-24 is horrific.
I've said it before. Eli is like Tofu. He takes on the flavor of his team. He raises no ones game. He lifts no one up. He just fades with the rest of the team.
If that's good enough for you...that is your privilege.
I guess I could continue to ask what QBs recently "lifted their team up" to multiple superbowls. You won't answer, but there is really only one choice. So let me ask you this: All other things being equal, if Bill Belichick was promoted to total control (GM/HC) of the Giants the way he is in NE, do you think Eli would have won more rings? Or do you really believe Brady is that much better than Eli? its a combo platter in NE as far as Brady and Belichick. He is a great coach/GM and Brady is a great QB. yes he is a much better QB than Eli over the course of both of their careers. He;s more accurate, better command of his team, clutch, resilient, etc
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Post by GameTime on Aug 22, 2019 7:08:06 GMT -5
its a combo platter in NE as far as Brady and Belichick. He is a great coach/GM and Brady is a great QB. yes he is a much better QB than Eli over the course of both of their careers. He;s more accurate, better command of his team, clutch, resilient, etc Brady and Belichick should be removed from all conversations ......they aren't the norm, they are in a different hemisphere but the question was asked
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Post by Roswell on Aug 22, 2019 9:04:23 GMT -5
A good NFL QB needs to be able to "lift his team up." If he cant levitate his team, he is worthless, regardless of any talent around him. At least that's what I hear. I didn't say that. But 8-24 is horrific.
I've said it before. Eli is like Tofu. He takes on the flavor of his team. He raises no ones game. He lifts no one up. He just fades with the rest of the team.
If that's good enough for you...that is your privilege.
I’m on the boards a long time and hope to be on the boards even longer but I’m pretty sure “Eli is like tofu” will be one of the most memorable posts I’ve ever read. Well done.
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Post by Roswell on Aug 22, 2019 9:07:06 GMT -5
It is funny. Only 4 out of the 19 have won in the past 10 years. Similar success? I think not. Eli won a SB in the past 10 years and not mentioned. It is just as funny as someone being serious in answering the sun goes around the earth, and tries to be convincing about it, Really it's on that scale of hilarious. Eli beat 4 of the above mentioned to win the SB . The post is truly that kind of priceless. With all due respect, he has done nothing since 2012. That’s the point. Not that he won 2 SBs years ago. Now. Today. The recent yesterdays.
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Post by Roswell on Aug 22, 2019 9:09:58 GMT -5
I'm not suggesting anything. I asked you a simple question, but it doesnt surprise me that you didnt respond to my post. That's what you do, just keep blathering on about a QBs inability "lift his team up." Let me ask you this: What QBs aside from Brady do you think "lifted his team up" in the past 10 years? Peyton Manning, Matt Ryan, Desean Watson, Aaron Rodgers,Tony Romo, Dak Prescott, Derek Carr, Alex Smith, Tom Brady, Cam Newton, Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Carson Palmer, Andrew Luck, Baker Mayfield, Joe Flacco, Carson Wentz, Jarrod Goff.
That's just in the first breath. Don't believe it with some of these guys? Check their team records when they got hurt as opposed to when they were playing. Check what happened to the Cards when Palmer got hurt,...or Carr when he was an MVP candidate. They fell off the planet after he got hurt. Check what happened to the Texans when Watson blew out his knee. What happened to the Cowboys when Romo got hurt? They went from 12-4 to 4-12. Then check what happened when Prescott started. What happened to the Colts when Luck got hurt? then what happened when he came back last season?
You know what happened to the those teams without that guy to lift them up? They had similar success as we did WITH Eli.
No Cousins? Lmao. And you left out Foles. Who probably lifted that team more than 90% of these guys you listed. Just keeping it real. 😎
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Post by McCherry on Aug 22, 2019 9:45:06 GMT -5
Beckham, Engram and Barkley were the best WR, TE, RB combo in Giants history.... Said no-one ever. Eli was sacked 16 more times last year than the previous. Let's just start with some correct facts, please. How can you possibly be wrong on every football related post? I don’t think football is your thing dud Beckham and Engram played in a total of 7 games together last year... You’re telling us the greatest WR/TE combo in Giants history played less than half a season together? Please Tony Boloney, enlighten this forum with more of your football knowledge
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Post by shocknaweny on Aug 22, 2019 10:06:44 GMT -5
How can you possibly be wrong on every football related post? I don’t think football is your thing dud Beckham and Engram played in a total of 7 games together last year... You’re telling us the greatest WR/TE combo in Giants history played less than half a season together? Please Tony Boloney, enlighten this forum with more of your football knowledge Giants most talented running back and wide receiver is most definitely Saquon and Beckham respectively.... there is an argument Bavaro and Jeremy Shockey were more complete players than Engram but Engram as part of that trio I still feel outweighs anything any previous Giant QBs have had to work with
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Post by snyder55 on Aug 22, 2019 10:09:55 GMT -5
with all due respect to Eli, what have we seen from him in the last few seasons that would make people feel confident in keeping him for more seasons, at 39 he has reached the end, its no disgrace, its happened to every star QB who ever played the game..
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Post by snyder55 on Aug 22, 2019 10:13:47 GMT -5
if we are truly in a rebuild mode then why would anybody try to rebuild with a 39 year old QB, it don't make any sense...
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Post by Roswell on Aug 22, 2019 10:14:46 GMT -5
How can you possibly be wrong on every football related post? I don’t think football is your thing dud Beckham and Engram played in a total of 7 games together last year... You’re telling us the greatest WR/TE combo in Giants history played less than half a season together? Please Tony Boloney, enlighten this forum with more of your football knowledge Barkley is already arguably the best RB the Giants have ever had. Beckham is on a very short list of great Giant receivers. Engram is a very talented TE. About the only comparative trio of weapons that the Giants had that would come close was Barber, Burress and Shockey. And Eli had that crew too. He has benefited greatly with respect to his stats by virtue of having guys like Barkley and Beckham take 5 yard passes and turn them into 50 yard plays thru tremendous individual effort. Players get hurt. Teams have to move on. Eli hasn’t lifted his team above adversity in about six years. He’s not even close to what he was.
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Post by Sarcasman on Aug 22, 2019 10:22:14 GMT -5
Peyton Manning, Matt Ryan, Desean Watson, Aaron Rodgers,Tony Romo, Dak Prescott, Derek Carr, Alex Smith, Tom Brady, Cam Newton, Drew Brees, Russell Wilson, Carson Palmer, Andrew Luck, Baker Mayfield, Joe Flacco, Carson Wentz, Jarrod Goff.
That's just in the first breath. Don't believe it with some of these guys? Check their team records when they got hurt as opposed to when they were playing. Check what happened to the Cards when Palmer got hurt,...or Carr when he was an MVP candidate. They fell off the planet after he got hurt. Check what happened to the Texans when Watson blew out his knee. What happened to the Cowboys when Romo got hurt? They went from 12-4 to 4-12. Then check what happened when Prescott started. What happened to the Colts when Luck got hurt? then what happened when he came back last season?
You know what happened to the those teams without that guy to lift them up? They had similar success as we did WITH Eli.
No Cousins? Lmao. And you left out Foles. Who probably lifted that team more than 90% of these guys you listed. Just keeping it real. I had no idea that teams' records were materially worse when their starting QB doesn't play. This, combined with Manning's stats when he plays with no #1 WR on the field have completely changed my understanding of the game. Apparently, having your starting players on the field during the game has a material impact on the quality of your play and W-L record. Say what you want about all those advanced stats purveyors, I doubt anyone was getting their hands on this kind of cool data twenty years ago.
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Post by GameTime on Aug 22, 2019 10:25:28 GMT -5
so its not a team game then....
I get it now...
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Post by McCherry on Aug 22, 2019 10:27:40 GMT -5
Beckham and Engram played in a total of 7 games together last year... You’re telling us the greatest WR/TE combo in Giants history played less than half a season together? Please Tony Boloney, enlighten this forum with more of your football knowledge Giants most talented running back and wide receiver is most definitely Saquon and Beckham respectively.... there is an argument Bavaro and Jeremy Shockey were more complete players than Engram but Engram as part of that trio I still feel outweighs anything any previous Giant QBs have had to work with Talented players and good players are two different things. Calling Barkley the most talented RB Eli’s played with has no relevance to anything. The Giants barely averaged 100 yds per game last year. Burress and Shockey were All-Pro players, Evan Engram is still learning to run routes and block. On any level it’s one of the most moronic arguments against Eli that’s out there.
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Post by Sarcasman on Aug 22, 2019 10:29:02 GMT -5
How can you possibly be wrong on every football related post? I don’t think football is your thing dud Beckham and Engram played in a total of 7 games together last year... You’re telling us the greatest WR/TE combo in Giants history played less than half a season together? Please Tony Boloney, enlighten this forum with more of your football knowledge C'mon, no one is seriously selling the idea that Beckham/Engram are the greatest WR/TE combo in Giants history. Beckham is certainly in the conversation as the most talented WR in Giants history, I don't have any idea what conversation Engram is in. Maybe the "we spent a first round pick on who?" conversation.
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Post by Sarcasman on Aug 22, 2019 10:32:43 GMT -5
It is funny. Only 4 out of the 19 have won in the past 10 years. Similar success? I think not. Eli won a SB in the past 10 years and not mentioned. It is just as funny as someone being serious in answering the sun goes around the earth, and tries to be convincing about it, Really it's on that scale of hilarious. Eli beat 4 of the above mentioned to win the SB . The post is truly that kind of priceless. I think it depends on what you value. I read a post the other day where some poster was making a case for the superior a QB's career based on his lifetime passer rating. Now the QB in question has played on some very good teams, some top teams in the league over his career and has won a grand total of nothing in the postseason....but man, that passer rating. You can't make it up. I can only imagine the ticker tape parade they had to celebrate that.
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Post by Sarcasman on Aug 22, 2019 10:33:37 GMT -5
Beckham and Engram played in a total of 7 games together last year... You’re telling us the greatest WR/TE combo in Giants history played less than half a season together? Please Tony Boloney, enlighten this forum with more of your football knowledge Giants most talented running back and wide receiver is most definitely Saquon and Beckham respectively.... there is an argument Bavaro and Jeremy Shockey were more complete players than Engram but Engram as part of that trio I still feel outweighs anything any previous Giant QBs have had to work with Imagine what will happen if he cracks the starting lineup....
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Post by Roswell on Aug 22, 2019 11:48:40 GMT -5
No Cousins? Lmao. And you left out Foles. Who probably lifted that team more than 90% of these guys you listed. Just keeping it real. I had no idea that teams' records were materially worse when their starting QB doesn't play. This, combined with Manning's stats when he plays with no #1 WR on the field have completely changed my understanding of the game. Apparently, having your starting players on the field during the game has a material impact on the quality of your play and W-L record. Say what you want about all those advanced stats purveyors, I doubt anyone was getting their hands on this kind of cool data twenty years ago. Let me channel DeNiro. You. You. You got a gift my friend..,..
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 22, 2019 11:54:10 GMT -5
It is funny. Only 4 out of the 19 have won in the past 10 years. Similar success? I think not. Eli won a SB in the past 10 years and not mentioned. It is just as funny as someone being serious in answering the sun goes around the earth, and tries to be convincing about it, Really it's on that scale of hilarious. Eli beat 4 of the above mentioned to win the SB . The post is truly that kind of priceless. The OLD Eli. Not the one we're trotting out these days.
That was the Eli who DID lift up his team. he hasn't done that for 7 or 8 years.
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Post by bizcliz on Aug 22, 2019 11:58:08 GMT -5
It is funny. Only 4 out of the 19 have won in the past 10 years. Similar success? I think not. Eli won a SB in the past 10 years and not mentioned. It is just as funny as someone being serious in answering the sun goes around the earth, and tries to be convincing about it, Really it's on that scale of hilarious. Eli beat 4 of the above mentioned to win the SB . The post is truly that kind of priceless. The OLD Eli. Not the one we're trotting out these days.
That was the Eli who DID lift up his team. he hasn't done that for 7 or 8 years.
6.5 years with the exception of a few games, but you are right Most of us are hoping it to happen this year, if not, then we got #8. Not a big deal/
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Post by jjhall91 on Aug 22, 2019 12:00:33 GMT -5
"...talented players and good players are two different things..." "...Beckham is certainly in the conversation as the most talented WR in Giants history..." "...I think it depends on what you value..."
After giving some thought, I find the above quotes interesting to say the least. To clarify in my own mind, I applied the above to OBJ as he was in the topic, however, it could be just as applicable to others.
It would be hard to argue Odell not be considered one of the most talented WRs in Giants' history, or any teams history for that matter. Conceding the point Odell was a tremendous talent, and involving the "...depends on what you value statement..." what actual success did it bring. Granted, he had good stats and he took the Giants to a playoff game (in which he contributed to a loss), but he never realized major success for the team to any extent.
It could be argued his limited success was more than offset by his stints on the IL coupled with his antics both on and off the field (especially the NC game). Therefore, if you value stats and talent then it is clear that Odell should rank high in your individual assessment. If you value contribution to team success, then not so much.
A great example/comparison to enhance the point that differentiates "talent" from "good" would be Steve Largent. He was considered one of the slowest and least talented of many WRs, yet he excelled and was integral to the Seahawks' success.
Simply my thought in the matter.
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