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Post by Roswell on Aug 22, 2019 12:04:31 GMT -5
I think we can all agree that no QB in Giants history has had better weapons than Eli
And it’s not even close.
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Post by Roswell on Aug 22, 2019 12:08:29 GMT -5
"...talented players and good players are two different things..." "...Beckham is certainly in the conversation as the most talented WR in Giants history..." "...I think it depends on what you value..." After giving some thought, I find the above quotes interesting to say the least. To clarify in my own mind, I applied the above to OBJ as he was in the topic, however, it could be just as applicable to others. It would be hard to argue Odell not be considered one of the most talented WRs in Giants' history, or any teams history for that matter. Conceding the point Odell was a tremendous talent, and involving the "...depends on what you value statement..." what actual success did it bring. Granted, he had good stats and he took the Giants to a playoff game (in which he contributed to a loss), but he never realized major success for the team to any extent. It could be argued his limited success was more than offset by his stints on the IL coupled with his antics both on and off the field (especially the NC game). Therefore, if you value stats and talent then it is clear that Odell should rank high in your individual assessment. If you value contribution to team success, then not so much. A great example/comparison to enhance the point that differentiates "talent" from "good" would be Steve Largent. He was considered one of the slowest and least talented of many WRs, yet he excelled and was integral to the Seahawks' success. Simply my thought in the matter. Largent was a terrific receiver. What Seattle success are you referring to?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 12:19:53 GMT -5
The thing that gets a bit murky here is the distinction between talent and accomplishment. For instance one could argue that OBJ was the most talented wide receiver we've had, but he's certainly not the most accomplished.
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Post by jjhall91 on Aug 22, 2019 12:33:02 GMT -5
"...talented players and good players are two different things..." "...Beckham is certainly in the conversation as the most talented WR in Giants history..." "...I think it depends on what you value..." After giving some thought, I find the above quotes interesting to say the least. To clarify in my own mind, I applied the above to OBJ as he was in the topic, however, it could be just as applicable to others. It would be hard to argue Odell not be considered one of the most talented WRs in Giants' history, or any teams history for that matter. Conceding the point Odell was a tremendous talent, and involving the "...depends on what you value statement..." what actual success did it bring. Granted, he had good stats and he took the Giants to a playoff game (in which he contributed to a loss), but he never realized major success for the team to any extent. It could be argued his limited success was more than offset by his stints on the IL coupled with his antics both on and off the field (especially the NC game). Therefore, if you value stats and talent then it is clear that Odell should rank high in your individual assessment. If you value contribution to team success, then not so much. A great example/comparison to enhance the point that differentiates "talent" from "good" would be Steve Largent. He was considered one of the slowest and least talented of many WRs, yet he excelled and was integral to the Seahawks' success. Simply my thought in the matter. Largent was a terrific receiver. What Seattle success are you referring to? SB appearance.
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Post by Roswell on Aug 22, 2019 13:11:59 GMT -5
Largent was a terrific receiver. What Seattle success are you referring to? SB appearance. I don’t think Steve Largent ever played in a Super Bowl.
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Post by jjhall91 on Aug 22, 2019 13:18:59 GMT -5
I don’t think Steve Largent ever played in a Super Bowl. Didn't he play against NE. I'll check. Maybe my old brain is incorrect.
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Post by dannydimes8 on Aug 22, 2019 13:26:21 GMT -5
I continue to despise Pat Shurmur. I don’t feel he’s HC material. Unfortunately for him to be fired it will mean we failed with Jones as that is who he is tied to now and I want to see him succeed.
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Post by jjhall91 on Aug 22, 2019 13:34:22 GMT -5
I don’t think Steve Largent ever played in a Super Bowl. You are right. I stand corrected. It was well after his career.
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Post by jjhall91 on Aug 22, 2019 13:43:55 GMT -5
I don’t think Steve Largent ever played in a Super Bowl. You are right. I stand corrected. It was well after his career. I just looked and he did contribute to 7 playoff appearance including 1 division championship, though.
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Post by Roswell on Aug 22, 2019 14:04:50 GMT -5
You are right. I stand corrected. It was well after his career. I just looked and he did contribute to 7 playoff appearance including 1 division championship, though. He was definitely great. Wish Simms had him to throw to.
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Post by jimmieray on Aug 22, 2019 14:56:09 GMT -5
I continue to despise Pat Shurmur. I don’t feel he’s HC material. Unfortunately for him to be fired it will mean we failed with Jones as that is who he is tied to now and I want to see him succeed. I had some issues with him, last season. He does have his personnel playing pretty well so far in this preseason. I think there are things that are yet to come out, concerning players that are gone now. One in particular.
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Post by TEM on Aug 22, 2019 15:35:13 GMT -5
It is funny. Only 4 out of the 19 have won in the past 10 years. Similar success? I think not. Eli won a SB in the past 10 years and not mentioned. It is just as funny as someone being serious in answering the sun goes around the earth, and tries to be convincing about it, Really it's on that scale of hilarious. Eli beat 4 of the above mentioned to win the SB . The post is truly that kind of priceless. With all due respect, he has done nothing since 2012. That’s the point. Not that he won 2 SBs years ago. Now. Today. The recent yesterdays. With all due respect right back at ya How many trophies has; Cam won? Ryan won? Watson won? Romo won? Prescott won? Carr won? Smith won? Brees won? Palmer won? Luck won? Mayfield won? Wentz won? Goff won? In the past 10 years?
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Post by TEM on Aug 22, 2019 15:40:24 GMT -5
It is funny. Only 4 out of the 19 have won in the past 10 years. Similar success? I think not. Eli won a SB in the past 10 years and not mentioned. It is just as funny as someone being serious in answering the sun goes around the earth, and tries to be convincing about it, Really it's on that scale of hilarious. Eli beat 4 of the above mentioned to win the SB . The post is truly that kind of priceless. The OLD Eli. Not the one we're trotting out these days.
That was the Eli who DID lift up his team. he hasn't done that for 7 or 8 years.
Outside of Brady Flacco Rodgers Wilson Who else has hoisted a trophy in the past 10 years? That is the ultimate goal of the season.
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Post by Roswell on Aug 22, 2019 15:57:21 GMT -5
With all due respect, he has done nothing since 2012. That’s the point. Not that he won 2 SBs years ago. Now. Today. The recent yesterdays. With all due respect right back at ya How many trophies has; Cam won? Ryan won? Watson won? Romo won? Prescott won? Carr won? Smith won? Brees won? Palmer won? Luck won? Mayfield won? Wentz won? Goff won? In the past 10 years? More to the point, just about all of those guys you mentioned are currently better than Eli at the moment. That’s more important than what happened in 07, 11. Wouldn’t you agree?
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Post by TEM on Aug 22, 2019 16:05:41 GMT -5
With all due respect right back at ya How many trophies has; Cam won? Ryan won? Watson won? Romo won? Prescott won? Carr won? Smith won? Brees won? Palmer won? Luck won? Mayfield won? Wentz won? Goff won? In the past 10 years? More to the point, all of those guys you mentioned are currently better than Eli at the moment. That’s more important than what happened in 07, 11. Wouldn’t you agree? According to who? In 2018 Eli was: 8th in passing 8th in attempts 17th in TDs 7th on completion % 18th in YPA 12th lowest in INTs 14th in YPG Statistically he was in middle or top of measurables.
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Post by DandyDon on Aug 22, 2019 16:30:52 GMT -5
With all due respect, he has done nothing since 2012. That’s the point. Not that he won 2 SBs years ago. Now. Today. The recent yesterdays. With all due respect right back at ya How many trophies has; Cam won? Ryan won? Watson won? Romo won? Prescott won? Carr won? Smith won? Brees won? Palmer won? Luck won? Mayfield won? Wentz won? Goff won? In the past 10 years? Apparently they can only lift so high.
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Post by Sarcasman on Aug 22, 2019 17:55:39 GMT -5
I think we can all agree that no QB in Giants history has had better weapons than Eli And it’s not even close. That's terrific in a tallest midget kind of way since the macro set is only existing and former NY Giants players. Here's hoping the Giants have abandoned that failed strategy for good and are finally back to drafting good teams as opposed to hood ornaments and other niceties. I want a great stereo in my car too, but not at the expense of an engine or tires.
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Post by Sarcasman on Aug 22, 2019 17:59:02 GMT -5
With all due respect, he has done nothing since 2012. That’s the point. Not that he won 2 SBs years ago. Now. Today. The recent yesterdays. With all due respect right back at ya How many trophies has; Cam won? Ryan won? Watson won? Romo won? Prescott won? Carr won? Smith won? Brees won? Palmer won? Luck won? Mayfield won? Wentz won? Goff won? In the past 10 years? I was at the ticker tape parade celebrating Ryan's passer rating from a couple of years ago. There weren't nearly as many people there as I expected.
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Post by Roswell on Aug 22, 2019 20:31:07 GMT -5
More to the point, all of those guys you mentioned are currently better than Eli at the moment. That’s more important than what happened in 07, 11. Wouldn’t you agree? According to who? In 2018 Eli was: 8th in passing 8th in attempts 17th in TDs 7th on completion % 18th in YPA 12th lowest in INTs 14th in YPG Statistically he was in middle or top of measurables. He’s won eight games in 2 years. That’s 4/year. Worth mentioning if we’re throwing out numbers.
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Post by giantlegacy on Aug 22, 2019 21:10:49 GMT -5
I continue to despise Pat Shurmur. I don’t feel he’s HC material. Unfortunately for him to be fired it will mean we failed with Jones as that is who he is tied to now and I want to see him succeed. Okay , now I know ............................!!! *sniff sniff*
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Post by TCHOF on Aug 22, 2019 21:32:16 GMT -5
I continue to despise Pat Shurmur. I don’t feel he’s HC material. Unfortunately for him to be fired it will mean we failed with Jones as that is who he is tied to now and I want to see him succeed. So let’s guess ... what former poster is this with a new screen name? Smells like Dark Saint to me
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Post by Speedman on Aug 22, 2019 22:26:06 GMT -5
According to who? In 2018 Eli was: 8th in passing 8th in attempts 17th in TDs 7th on completion % 18th in YPA 12th lowest in INTs 14th in YPG Statistically he was in middle or top of measurables. He’s won eight games in 2 years. That’s 4/year. Worth mentioning if we’re throwing out numbers. It’s a team sport.
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Post by Roswell on Aug 23, 2019 5:30:41 GMT -5
He’s won eight games in 2 years. That’s 4/year. Worth mentioning if we’re throwing out numbers. It’s a team sport. You know what? Here’s how it works for QBs in the NFL..... If someone is going to list accomplishments like SB wins from over seven years ago, completion % never was higher last year, eighth in this, sixth in that, etc, etc....as ways to point out Eli Manning”s effectiveness then why can’t his record also be brought up? It’s also the team in part that enabled him to put up those misleading numbers that you guys have been hiding behind in his defense. We all owe Eli our respect and appreciation for those two magical years. They were great, great, years. But other than those two years out of the 15 he’s played, he’s been in the same boat as guys like Andy Dalton. 13 out of his 15 years as a starting QB Eli Manning has failed to win a playoff game. 13 out of 15. That’s mind blowing for a guy that’s probably going to get into the HOF. This, whether you think it’s fair or not, is how QBs are evaluated. Yeah, it’s a “team” sport. So why ever fire a coach or change the QB? The answer? Because the “team” is not winning. I’ve defended Eli for years, much like you guys with the rose colored glasses on. Love his durability, his demeanor with the press, his class and of course the improbable pair of trophies he helped bring to the franchise. But that was then and this is now.
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Post by Fletch842 on Aug 23, 2019 6:10:58 GMT -5
So let’s guess ... what former poster is this with a new screen name? Smells like Dark Saint to me I'm not so sure. DD has expressed his opinions since joining, but has not laid on the personal attacks that we were seeing from DS. I'm ok with posters that I don't always agree with, its the ones that go after other posters that annoy me.
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Post by Speedman on Aug 23, 2019 6:19:32 GMT -5
You know what? Here’s how it works for QBs in the NFL..... If someone is going to list accomplishments like SB wins from over seven years ago, completion % never was higher last year, eighth in this, sixth in that, etc, etc....as ways to point out Eli Manning”s effectiveness then why can’t his record also be brought up? It’s also the team in part that enabled him to put up those misleading numbers that you guys have been hiding behind in his defense. We all owe Eli our respect and appreciation for those two magical years. They were great, great, years. But other than those two years out of the 15 he’s played, he’s been in the same boat as guys like Andy Dalton. 13 out of his 15 years as a starting QB Eli Manning has failed to win a playoff game. 13 out of 15. That’s mind blowing for a guy that’s probably going to get into the HOF. This, whether you think it’s fair or not, is how QBs are evaluated. Yeah, it’s a “team” sport. So why ever fire a coach or change the QB? The answer? Because the “team” is not winning. I’ve defended Eli for years, much like you guys with the rose colored glasses on. Love his durability, his demeanor with the press, his class and of course the improbable pair of trophies he helped bring to the franchise. But that was then and this is now. We will see this year.
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Post by GameTime on Aug 23, 2019 6:23:48 GMT -5
I continue to despise Pat Shurmur. I don’t feel he’s HC material. Unfortunately for him to be fired it will mean we failed with Jones as that is who he is tied to now and I want to see him succeed. So if he succeeds with Jones you still despise him? thats odd.....very odd
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Post by dannydimes8 on Aug 23, 2019 6:30:11 GMT -5
I continue to despise Pat Shurmur. I don’t feel he’s HC material. Unfortunately for him to be fired it will mean we failed with Jones as that is who he is tied to now and I want to see him succeed. So if he succeeds with Jones you still despise him? thats odd.....very odd If Shurmur wins I won’t despise him. I want the team to succeed I just think they’d need to do it in spite of him. I hated the hire. If he grooms Jones he’s at the very least setting us up for success. They got all the guys he couldn’t coach out of here so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt now that he’s in Year 2. He just took way too many moral victories last year for my liking. There is winning and there is losing. Effort is expected, he cites effort as if it’s rare way too much. Production is what we need. Results are what we need. Those are his job.
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Post by GameTime on Aug 23, 2019 6:41:09 GMT -5
So if he succeeds with Jones you still despise him? thats odd.....very odd If Shurmur wins I won’t despise him. I want the team to succeed I just think they’d need to do it in spite of him. I hated the hire. If he grooms Jones he’s at the very least setting us up for success. They got all the guys he couldn’t coach out of here so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt now that he’s in Year 2. He just took way too many moral victories last year for my liking. There is winning and there is losing. Effort is expected, he cites effort as if it’s rare way too much. Production is what we need. Results are what we need. Those are his job. Yeah one season....with a roster that previously sucked. No judging from me yet. Moral victories? Who was your pick for HC?
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Post by TEM on Aug 23, 2019 6:46:19 GMT -5
According to who? In 2018 Eli was: 8th in passing 8th in attempts 17th in TDs 7th on completion % 18th in YPA 12th lowest in INTs 14th in YPG Statistically he was in middle or top of measurables. He’s won eight games in 2 years. That’s 4/year. Worth mentioning if we’re throwing out numbers. This is what I find hilarious about stupid logic when it pertains to Eli . The poster that came up with his list of "Elevates their team in a way Eli can not in the past 10 years" I Will remind you . ( not an opinion) It is Completely on a level high level of absurd. Tipping towards super clueless. To even think that anyone would agree with that list I lost a few points off my IQ from a brain bleed because of laughing so hard, If his list is so true as You, Morehead and others with their likes claim, or you would not try to use the same logic he did to defended it. I could use truly moronic logic to prove his list to be idiotic in its nature , Because over half of the QBs, on that list have not played in the NFL for 10 years most 5 or less. Yeah it is that simple to see the idiocy in it what he tried to convey. I will use Deric Car as an example. I could use more if you would like. To respond to your Eli only won 4 games. How did David Carr exactly lift his team better that Eli with only 10 wins in the last 2 seasons? And only 32 in his 5 year career and 42 loses? But Really keep it up because, I like the intense chuckles.
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Post by dannydimes8 on Aug 23, 2019 6:48:19 GMT -5
If Shurmur wins I won’t despise him. I want the team to succeed I just think they’d need to do it in spite of him. I hated the hire. If he grooms Jones he’s at the very least setting us up for success. They got all the guys he couldn’t coach out of here so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt now that he’s in Year 2. He just took way too many moral victories last year for my liking. There is winning and there is losing. Effort is expected, he cites effort as if it’s rare way too much. Production is what we need. Results are what we need. Those are his job. Yeah one season....with a roster that previously sucked. No judging from me yet. Moral victories? Who was your pick for HC? I wanted a young offensive minded coach. Matt Lafleur. Shurmur is something along the lines of 15-34 as a HC.
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