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Post by mikethenygfan on Jan 16, 2020 12:16:53 GMT -5
First time in my life has a player with 0.5 sacks on the season is regarded as a “solid” pass rusher. The same credit he’s getting is the same thing fans were criticizing with Vernon. Generating pressure and actual sacks are two different things. also two different positions.
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mikethenygfan
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Post by mikethenygfan on Jan 16, 2020 12:18:38 GMT -5
I'm ok with resigning him. I'm guessing he's going to get a salary somewhere around 8 - 12th highest paid DL, which puts him in the 12 - 14 M category. Trust me, its a lot less then will take to sign Clowney or Ngakoue, and doesn't hurt us for next year's compensation calculation. Exactly for everything in here Interior pressure is very important as it often leads to sacks from the outside guys and bad throws. I would love to see a stat that shows our stats with the 3 man d line as opposed to when Betcher went stupid with a 2 man line.... Definitely bring him back(and Golden) with betcher gone im not sure i wanna bring golden back anymore, he had his 2 best years with betcher
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Post by mikethenygfan on Jan 16, 2020 12:22:25 GMT -5
Who is better? Snacks or Williams? Snacks just signed an 11.5 million dollar extension so the answer to the above question should give everyone a perspective to Williams value. I'm thinking he gets something over $13 million a year minimum.. snacks is old and was injured this year so i would take williams over snacks at this point
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Post by dvision on Jan 16, 2020 12:24:41 GMT -5
Who is better? Snacks or Williams? Snacks just signed an 11.5 million dollar extension so the answer to the above question should give everyone a perspective to Williams value. I'm thinking he gets something over $13 million a year minimum.. snacks is old and was injured this year so i would take williams over snacks at this point Williams is also a 3 down player... Snacks has never been...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2020 12:25:52 GMT -5
Who is better? Snacks or Williams? Snacks just signed an 11.5 million dollar extension so the answer to the above question should give everyone a perspective to Williams value. I'm thinking he gets something over $13 million a year minimum.. snacks is old and was injured this year so i would take williams over snacks at this point So would I but that means he's going to make more then him also.. Not the 10 million a year that some of these fans think he's worth..
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mikethenygfan
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Post by mikethenygfan on Jan 16, 2020 12:26:31 GMT -5
snacks is old and was injured this year so i would take williams over snacks at this point So would I but that means he's going to make more then him also.. Not the 10 million a year that some of these fans think he's worth.. your probably right
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2020 12:27:32 GMT -5
Exactly for everything in here Interior pressure is very important as it often leads to sacks from the outside guys and bad throws. I would love to see a stat that shows our stats with the 3 man d line as opposed to when Betcher went stupid with a 2 man line.... Definitely bring him back(and Golden) with betcher gone im not sure i wanna bring golden back anymore, he had his 2 best years with betcher That's what I'm thinking plus he should be able to get on a much better team..
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Post by TEM on Jan 16, 2020 12:33:43 GMT -5
Exactly for everything in here Interior pressure is very important as it often leads to sacks from the outside guys and bad throws. I would love to see a stat that shows our stats with the 3 man d line as opposed to when Betcher went stupid with a 2 man line.... Definitely bring him back(and Golden) with betcher gone im not sure i wanna bring golden back anymore, he had his 2 best years with betcher Am I reading this correct. You do not want to bring back a 10 sack pass rusher. Only LT has more sacks as an OLB as a Giant. Banks' best year was 9 You don't want to bring that guy back?
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Post by Sarcasman on Jan 16, 2020 12:35:48 GMT -5
I think we all knew this for the most part. He is a pressure up the gut guy. Like Vernon, he gets to pressure the QB but wont get the sacks. Im good with that as a DT though. It just sucks we burned draft picks on him when he is a FA. That's the kinda guy that gets Vernon a huge FA deal.
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Post by jaymas on Jan 16, 2020 12:39:08 GMT -5
with betcher gone im not sure i wanna bring golden back anymore, he had his 2 best years with betcher Am I reading this correct. You do not want to bring back a 10 sack pass rusher. Only LT has more sacks as an OLB as a Giant. Banks' best year was 9 You don't want to bring that guy back? Well you're being sneaky here. Strahan, Tuck, JPP, Osi, all had similar responsibilities in the scheme as Golden. Robert Ayers also had a 9.5 sack season for us. Just cause his hand was in the ground a lot less because the base alignment was a 3-4 doesn't actually mean "he's the first since LT at his position to have 10 sacks!" That's not true, that's molding the truth to make a sexier statement. All that said, I like Golden and would like to see him back.
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Post by TEM on Jan 16, 2020 12:42:53 GMT -5
Am I reading this correct. You do not want to bring back a 10 sack pass rusher. Only LT has more sacks as an OLB as a Giant. Banks' best year was 9 You don't want to bring that guy back? Well you're being sneaky here. Strahan, Tuck, JPP, Osi, all had similar responsibilities in the scheme as Golden. Robert Ayers also had a 9.5 sack season for us. Just cause his hand was in the ground a lot less because the base alignment was a 3-4 doesn't actually mean " he's the first since LT at his position to have 10 sacks!" That's not true, that's molding the truth to make a sexier statement. All that said, I like Golden and would like to see him back. I am not being sneaky. There is a difference between a 3-4 OLB and and a 4-3 DE. I did say OLB Not DE LT and Banks were Line Backers not D-linemen. The same with Strahan JPP Osi Tuck All DEs. All played with their hand on the ground.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2020 12:44:05 GMT -5
Am I reading this correct. You do not want to bring back a 10 sack pass rusher. Only LT has more sacks as an OLB as a Giant. Banks' best year was 9 You don't want to bring that guy back? Well you're being sneaky here. Strahan, Tuck, JPP, Osi, all had similar responsibilities in the scheme as Golden. Robert Ayers also had a 9.5 sack season for us. Just cause his hand was in the ground a lot less because the base alignment was a 3-4 doesn't actually mean "he's the first since LT at his position to have 10 sacks!" That's not true, that's molding the truth to make a sexier statement. All that said, I like Golden and would like to see him back. That's what this guy does.. I don't know if it's sad or comical but it sure can be frustrating trying to have an informed discussion with him..
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Post by jaymas on Jan 16, 2020 13:02:06 GMT -5
Well you're being sneaky here. Strahan, Tuck, JPP, Osi, all had similar responsibilities in the scheme as Golden. Robert Ayers also had a 9.5 sack season for us. Just cause his hand was in the ground a lot less because the base alignment was a 3-4 doesn't actually mean " he's the first since LT at his position to have 10 sacks!" That's not true, that's molding the truth to make a sexier statement. All that said, I like Golden and would like to see him back. I am not being sneaky. There is a difference between a 3-4 OLB and and a 4-3 DE. I did say OLB Not DE LT and Banks were Line Backers not D-linemen. The same with Strahan JPP Osi Tuck All DEs. All played with their hand on the ground. Quite literally the scheme responsibility in both defenses is the same. Rushing the passer 1a, edge responsibility for the run as part of the front. The differences you vaguely refer to mean nothing. The conceptual role of the outside backer in a 3-4 base and 4-3 DE in that base are very, very similar. That's not even taking into consideration the vast use of hybrid defense today anyway. In absolutely no way would he be comparable to a SAM or WILL backer in our 4-3 schemes. The pool of players that have the responsibility would be guys like LT, Strahan, Osi, Tuck, JPP, Vernon, Ayers, Kiwanuka. No reason for you to even take your position here. Golden played well, many want him to return. He's not some sort of player producing at a clip we haven't seen since LT. It's simply not true.
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Post by roundabout on Jan 16, 2020 13:12:44 GMT -5
I focused on Williams a lot down the stretch. The guy has a rare motor and is always around the ball. Linvall Joseph is the only recent DL I could compare. A good edge rusher would thrive with this interior. You’re not getting him for less than $10M per, but he’s worth it in my mind. F*ck Golden. And F#ck Casper Gomez And the F#cking Diaz brothers
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Post by TEM on Jan 16, 2020 13:13:14 GMT -5
I am not being sneaky. There is a difference between a 3-4 OLB and and a 4-3 DE. I did say OLB Not DE LT and Banks were Line Backers not D-linemen. The same with Strahan JPP Osi Tuck All DEs. All played with their hand on the ground. Quite literally the scheme responsibility in both defenses is the same. Rushing the passer 1a, edge responsibility for the run as part of the front. In absolutely no way would he be comparable to a SAM or WILL backer in our 4-3 schemes. The pool of players that have the responsibility would be guys like LT, Strahan, Osi, Tuck, JPP, Vernon, Ayers, Kiwanuka. No reason for you to even take your position here. Golden played well, many want him to return. He's not some sort of player producing at a clip we haven't seen since LT. It's simply not true. Am I reading this correctly. Are you saying he is not a natural 3-4 OLB like LT or banks? Because his stent as a DE in AZs 4-3 was not good.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2020 13:19:09 GMT -5
I am not being sneaky. There is a difference between a 3-4 OLB and and a 4-3 DE. I did say OLB Not DE LT and Banks were Line Backers not D-linemen. The same with Strahan JPP Osi Tuck All DEs. All played with their hand on the ground. Quite literally the scheme responsibility in both defenses is the same. Rushing the passer 1a, edge responsibility for the run as part of the front. The differences you vaguely refer to mean nothing. The conceptual role of the outside backer in a 3-4 base and 4-3 DE in that base are very, very similar. That's not even taking into consideration the vast use of hybrid defense today anyway. In absolutely no way would he be comparable to a SAM or WILL backer in our 4-3 schemes. The pool of players that have the responsibility would be guys like LT, Strahan, Osi, Tuck, JPP, Vernon, Ayers, Kiwanuka. No reason for you to even take your position here. Golden played well, many want him to return . He's not some sort of player producing at a clip we haven't seen since LT. It's simply not true.Exactly.. Good luck with TEM..
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Post by jaymas on Jan 16, 2020 13:29:35 GMT -5
Quite literally the scheme responsibility in both defenses is the same. Rushing the passer 1a, edge responsibility for the run as part of the front. In absolutely no way would he be comparable to a SAM or WILL backer in our 4-3 schemes. The pool of players that have the responsibility would be guys like LT, Strahan, Osi, Tuck, JPP, Vernon, Ayers, Kiwanuka. No reason for you to even take your position here. Golden played well, many want him to return. He's not some sort of player producing at a clip we haven't seen since LT. It's simply not true. Am I reading this correctly. Are you saying he is not a natural 3-4 OLB like LT or banks? Because his stent as a DE in AZs 4-3 was not good. Not once did I say that. I said the conceptual responsibility of a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 outside linebacker are the same. So to say silly things like "we haven't had a linebacker with 10 sacks since LT" is misleading. As we've had plenty of guys with the same conceptual responsibility produce 10 sacks. You're making a flawed, general comparison that's essentially using the word linebacker to support your argument and them trying to take the conversation far more into the weeds, which it isn't to begin with. So in turn you're building a straw man. I'm not talking about whether or not Golden is a better fit in one of the base defenses or not. But I will play on this poimt. Golden was recovering from a serious knee injury which I'm positive had some sort of effect on his ability to effective in a different defense with the same conceptual responsibility. I have no idea how he'd do in a 4-3 with his hand in the ground in a pass rush focused role while healthy. My gut says he'd do fine.
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Post by TEM on Jan 16, 2020 13:37:49 GMT -5
Am I reading this correctly. Are you saying he is not a natural 3-4 OLB like LT or banks? Because his stent as a DE in AZs 4-3 was not good. Not once did I say that. I said the conceptual responsibility of a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 outside linebacker are the same. So to say silly things like "we haven't had a linebacker with 10 sacks since LT" is misleading. As we've had plenty of guys with the same conceptual responsibility produce 10 sacks. You're making a flawed, general comparison that's essentially using the word linebacker to support your argument and them trying to take the conversation far more into the weeds, which it isn't to begin with. So in turn you're building a straw man. I'm not talking about whether or not Golden is a better fit in one of the base defenses or not. But I will play on this poimt. Golden was recovering from a serious knee injury which I'm positive had some sort of effect on his ability to effective in a different defense with the same conceptual responsibility. I have no idea how he'd do in a 4-3 with his hand in the ground in a pass rush focused role while healthy. My gut says he'd do fine. It is the truth. We have not had 3-4 OLB since LT with at least 10 sacks. That is including Banks. That is not the point I was making . Some are trying to make an argument for him not to be re-singed because of the coach. I was using it a s a reference to show the stupidity of it.
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Post by jaymas on Jan 16, 2020 13:42:14 GMT -5
Not once did I say that. I said the conceptual responsibility of a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 outside linebacker are the same. So to say silly things like "we haven't had a linebacker with 10 sacks since LT" is misleading. As we've had plenty of guys with the same conceptual responsibility produce 10 sacks. You're making a flawed, general comparison that's essentially using the word linebacker to support your argument and them trying to take the conversation far more into the weeds, which it isn't to begin with. So in turn you're building a straw man. I'm not talking about whether or not Golden is a better fit in one of the base defenses or not. But I will play on this poimt. Golden was recovering from a serious knee injury which I'm positive had some sort of effect on his ability to effective in a different defense with the same conceptual responsibility. I have no idea how he'd do in a 4-3 with his hand in the ground in a pass rush focused role while healthy. My gut says he'd do fine. It is the truth. We have not had 3-4 OLB since LT with at least 10 sacks. That is including Banks. That is not the point I was making . Some are trying to make an argument for him not to be re-singed because of the coach. I was using it a s a reference to show the stupidity of it. And the truth is we've had like 6 guys have 10 sacks that have the same defensive responsibility as Marcus Golden. I want him resigned too, but to act like it's some wild thing a pass rusher got 10 sacks and it hasn't happened in 30 years in misleading. It's a way to dramatize a point that doesn't need to be dramatized. We should resign him because he was productive. But if we don't because free agency drives the cost up beyond even normal free agency cost drivers, it wouldn't be that wild because his performance wasn't that wild, it was good, solid. There's also a brand new coaching staff about to analyze Golden's performance and I have no idea what their assessment will be.
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Post by TEM on Jan 16, 2020 13:47:55 GMT -5
It is the truth. We have not had 3-4 OLB since LT with at least 10 sacks. That is including Banks. That is not the point I was making . Some are trying to make an argument for him not to be re-singed because of the coach. I was using it a s a reference to show the stupidity of it. And the truth is we've had like 6 guys have 10 sacks that have the same defensive responsibility as Marcus Golden. I want him resigned too, but to act like it's some wild thing a pass rusher got 10 sacks and it hasn't happened in 30 years in misleading. It's a way to dramatize a point that doesn't need to be dramatized. We should resign him because he was productive. But if we don't because free agency drives the cost up beyond even normal free agency cost drivers, it wouldn't be that wild because his performance wasn't that wild, it was good, solid. There's also a brand new coaching staff about to analyze Golden's performance and I have no idea what their assessment will be. Maybe this will help you out with it. Here it is from the Official New York Football Giants NFL web site. You don't have to take my word for it. Markus Golden first Giants LB to 10 sacks since LT www.giants.com/news/markus-golden-lawrence-taylor-double-digit-sacksEAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. – Leftover notes and statistics from the Giants' 41-35 overtime victory in Washington last Sunday: *Markus Golden is back in the double-digit sack club. After a review, the Elias Sports Bureau awarded Golden with a full sack of Dwayne Haskins on the first play of the third quarter. The sack was originally split between Golden and Lorenzo Carter. The change in scoring increased Golden's team-leading total to 10.0 sacks. He is the first Giants player with double-digit sacks since Jason Pierre-Paul had 12.5 in 2014 and the first Giants linebacker to accomplish the feat since Lawrence Taylor had 10.5 in 1990.Golden had a career-high 12.5 sacks with Arizona in 2016. Golden, Carter and defensive tackle B.J. Hill all had sacks in Washington to give the Giants 35 for the season. That is their highest total since they had 35 in 2016. They finished the 2018 season with 30 sacks. The Giants have one game remaining, at home Sunday against Philadelphia.
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Post by McCherry on Jan 16, 2020 13:54:18 GMT -5
If it was it wasn’t printed I’m not sure I’d believe Golden had 10 sacks this season... If ya dig.
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Post by infinite420 on Jan 16, 2020 13:54:30 GMT -5
We wont keep LW if we only offer him 10m/yr. In fact, If think he would cut off negotiations if that were our offer. This trade would have been terrible if we were cash-strapped in FA. But were not, after cuts we should have approx. $90m to spend. I think 12-14m/year gets it done. He's a very good player, and it takes DT off the draft board. Try having this cuts and added cap space discussion with TEM.. He has some very interesting views of it.. LOL Ogletree saves us 8.2, Martin 4.8, Ellison 5.0, theres an extra $18m on top of the $70m we currently have.......$88m. Beathea cut would give us another 2.75m.....$90.75m
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Post by jaymas on Jan 16, 2020 14:04:01 GMT -5
And the truth is we've had like 6 guys have 10 sacks that have the same defensive responsibility as Marcus Golden. I want him resigned too, but to act like it's some wild thing a pass rusher got 10 sacks and it hasn't happened in 30 years in misleading. It's a way to dramatize a point that doesn't need to be dramatized. We should resign him because he was productive. But if we don't because free agency drives the cost up beyond even normal free agency cost drivers, it wouldn't be that wild because his performance wasn't that wild, it was good, solid. There's also a brand new coaching staff about to analyze Golden's performance and I have no idea what their assessment will be. Maybe this will help you out with it. Here it is from the Official New York Football Giants NFL web site. You don't have to take my word for it. Markus Golden first Giants LB to 10 sacks since LT www.giants.com/news/markus-golden-lawrence-taylor-double-digit-sacksEAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. – Leftover notes and statistics from the Giants' 41-35 overtime victory in Washington last Sunday: *Markus Golden is back in the double-digit sack club. After a review, the Elias Sports Bureau awarded Golden with a full sack of Dwayne Haskins on the first play of the third quarter. The sack was originally split between Golden and Lorenzo Carter. The change in scoring increased Golden's team-leading total to 10.0 sacks. He is the first Giants player with double-digit sacks since Jason Pierre-Paul had 12.5 in 2014 and the first Giants linebacker to accomplish the feat since Lawrence Taylor had 10.5 in 1990.Golden had a career-high 12.5 sacks with Arizona in 2016. Golden, Carter and defensive tackle B.J. Hill all had sacks in Washington to give the Giants 35 for the season. That is their highest total since they had 35 in 2016. They finished the 2018 season with 30 sacks. The Giants have one game remaining, at home Sunday against Philadelphia. Yes, thank you for furthering my point. Of course the Giants website or any other media would write it that way. Writing, "Golden is the first player since Robert Ayers to produce similarly" wouldn't quite have the same buzz. Or how about "Golden is among a decently sized group of players that have had similar or better production." Lets just stop. Golden played well, there's absolutely no reason to make this comparison or try and say it's some sort of wild thing that happened. We've had plentiful pass rushers produce at that clip for a very long time. Oh and another reason pretending there's a difference in conceptual responsibility between a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 linebacker is totally silly, our old friend JPP is a linebacker now. Same role as when he was here with his hand in the ground. Oh and sometimes we stood him up. Sometimes we even lined him up inside!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2020 14:19:06 GMT -5
If it was it wasn’t printed I’m not sure I’d believe Golden had 10 sacks this season... If ya dig. Absolutely understand your point here. The least productive 10 sack year in recent memory..
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Post by TEM on Jan 16, 2020 14:19:10 GMT -5
Maybe this will help you out with it. Here it is from the Official New York Football Giants NFL web site. You don't have to take my word for it. Markus Golden first Giants LB to 10 sacks since LT www.giants.com/news/markus-golden-lawrence-taylor-double-digit-sacksEAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. – Leftover notes and statistics from the Giants' 41-35 overtime victory in Washington last Sunday: *Markus Golden is back in the double-digit sack club. After a review, the Elias Sports Bureau awarded Golden with a full sack of Dwayne Haskins on the first play of the third quarter. The sack was originally split between Golden and Lorenzo Carter. The change in scoring increased Golden's team-leading total to 10.0 sacks. He is the first Giants player with double-digit sacks since Jason Pierre-Paul had 12.5 in 2014 and the first Giants linebacker to accomplish the feat since Lawrence Taylor had 10.5 in 1990.Golden had a career-high 12.5 sacks with Arizona in 2016. Golden, Carter and defensive tackle B.J. Hill all had sacks in Washington to give the Giants 35 for the season. That is their highest total since they had 35 in 2016. They finished the 2018 season with 30 sacks. The Giants have one game remaining, at home Sunday against Philadelphia. Yes, thank you for furthering my point. Of course the Giants website or any other media would write it that way. Writing, "Golden is the first player since Robert Ayers to produce similarly" wouldn't quite have the same buzz. Or how about "Golden is among a decently sized group of players that have had similar or better production." Lets just stop. Golden played well, there's absolutely no reason to make this comparison or try and say it's some sort of wild thing that happened. We've had plentiful pass rushers produce at that clip for a very long time. Oh and another reason pretending there's a difference in conceptual responsibility between a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 linebacker is totally silly, our old friend JPP is a linebacker now. Same role as when he was here with his hand in the ground. Oh and sometimes we stood him up. Sometimes we even lined him up inside! I was just parroting what I read my friend . I did not just make that up. He is the one out of all of them I want retained . I would like Williams also. Given a choice, I would prefer Golden.
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Post by GameTime on Jan 16, 2020 15:16:22 GMT -5
according to my uneducated guess and the nature of the NFL... It was an odd move by DG to begin with and Williams can probably get more with another team if the NYGs want to go "cheap" so to speak. Just a a guess on my part Everything I read is his value is under 10 a year Golden is a bit over. Who do you compare him with as far a value? I dont get that detailed. I was just speaking in general terms of the nature of the NFL. Like I said my guess was an uneducated one.
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Post by lt56 on Jan 16, 2020 16:04:46 GMT -5
You trade for him, he came in and played well and instantly improved our run Defense but also Tomlinson elevated his game after that deal. Keep that Defensive Line together and add another Edge Rusher
Every time it is time to pay a player why does things always start to get negative about that player and some of our fans just start to nitpick at every little thing about that player and expect them to sign for a discount
Pay the man, make it a Incentive laced deal! He does things that effect that game that doesn't show up on the stat sheets but he is very disruptive and so strong
All this talk about "Hog Mollies" and dominating the Line Of Scrimmage well Williams is a guy that can do that
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Post by stroswift10nyg on Jan 16, 2020 16:07:28 GMT -5
If we don't sign him, Guttleman will look like a pile of A high 3 for nothing! BTW - Imagine if the Jets sign him back! I did not like the trade at all, made no sense. I would rather sign Yannick if hes a free agent this year even though hes gonna want alot of money.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jan 16, 2020 16:13:58 GMT -5
snacks is old and was injured this year so i would take williams over snacks at this point Williams is also a 3 down player... Snacks has never been... Williams gets a ton of pressure Snacks doesn't and Williams can play in side or outside in either odd or even front he just a better player.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jan 16, 2020 16:15:25 GMT -5
If we don't sign him, Guttleman will look like a pile of A high 3 for nothing! BTW - Imagine if the Jets sign him back! I did not like the trade at all, made no sense. I would rather sign Yannick if hes a free agent this year even though hes gonna want alot of money. He's gonna be 20 mill a year. They could draft one more edge bring back Golden.
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