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Post by Nullusion on Jan 17, 2020 0:14:28 GMT -5
They invested too much in him by trading a third round pick+. I'd give him the Franchise tag before letting him walk.
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Post by giantfromtheoz on Jan 17, 2020 0:26:31 GMT -5
Everything I read is his value is under 10 a year Golden is a bit over. Who do you compare him with as far a value? Spotrac says Golden's "market value" is 12M. Would you pay 12m for Golden? His sacks were very opportunistic, not taking any away from him as he was a bright spot. But I don’t feel like he got that “push” consistently. He either capitalised and sacked or he wasen’t relevant, no constant push or double team, rarely even chip blocked id say.
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Post by bringsimmsback on Jan 17, 2020 6:42:28 GMT -5
Spotrac says Golden's "market value" is 12M. Would you pay 12m for Golden? His sacks were very opportunistic, not taking any away from him as he was a bright spot. But I don’t feel like he got that “push” consistently. He either capitalised and sacked or he wasen’t relevant, no constant push or double team, rarely even chip blocked id say. I wouldn't pay 12 for Golden. As for Williams, he is a better player than OV, in my opinion. Ability wise, hard to compare because of different positions, but they are at least close. I think the pressures and hits from his position have more value than when OV was similar. One thing makes him clearly better, though: being on the field. Despite what some are saying, I think the Giants have the leverage here. They have enough CAP to tag him and continue negotiating or trade him (Gettleman has shown hesitation to franchise, however). They could also transition tag him if they are confident of his market value and want to keep him happy. All assuming just signing him prior to FA falls through. According to those who understand the Xs and Os better than me, pressure and hits up the middle are more disruptive and lead to actual sacks from the edge. It makes the back 7 better and leads to more turnovers. Add to this dominant run stopping and teams can't run out the clock, keeping your offense in games. All this is worth a lot to at least some teams, so I don't think Williams will get less than 12 and will probably get more. I'd be happy at 12. Happy higher as well, depending on how contract is set up. If he gets 15 now, he will probably look cheap in a few years.
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Post by giantfromtheoz on Jan 17, 2020 7:12:54 GMT -5
Would you pay 12m for Golden? His sacks were very opportunistic, not taking any away from him as he was a bright spot. But I don’t feel like he got that “push” consistently. He either capitalised and sacked or he wasen’t relevant, no constant push or double team, rarely even chip blocked id say. I wouldn't pay 12 for Golden. As for Williams, he is a better player than OV, in my opinion. Ability wise, hard to compare because of different positions, but they are at least close. I think the pressures and hits from his position have more value than when OV was similar. One thing makes him clearly better, though: being on the field. Despite what some are saying, I think the Giants have the leverage here. They have enough CAP to tag him and continue negotiating or trade him (Gettleman has shown hesitation to franchise, however). They could also transition tag him if they are confident of his market value and want to keep him happy. All assuming just signing him prior to FA falls through. According to those who understand the Xs and Os better than me, pressure and hits up the middle are more disruptive and lead to actual sacks from the edge. It makes the back 7 better and leads to more turnovers. Add to this dominant run stopping and teams can't run out the clock, keeping your offense in games. All this is worth a lot to at least some teams, so I don't think Williams will get less than 12 and will probably get more. I'd be happy at 12. Happy higher as well, depending on how contract is set up. If he gets 15 now, he will probably look cheap in a few years. Completely agreed, I mentioned something similar above. OV is paid to FINISH his opportunities. Getting a near sack off the edge is good sure. Good when you have a bookend helper to clean up. But if you don’t then it’s honestly useless. QB escapes and what can you do. Nearly every new age quarterback and roll out to avoid a rush. Williams is paid to stop the run and get push. If he gets through for a near sack then you know what, he’s disrupted the QB. QB now has to move out of the pocket. If he’s good enough to get out and make the throw then that’s on their talent and also your edges for not getting enough push to finish the job. 12m for Williams is a team friendly deal. I think we end up paying a bit more so Gettleman doesn’t look like even more of a complete nut case pulling the trigger on that trade. I do however like the player we got. That third rounder would’ve been nice in a few draft at many positions, ones of need as well.
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Post by Fletch842 on Jan 17, 2020 7:28:05 GMT -5
OV also missed a ton of time each year. Williams does not.
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Post by ctgiantsfan1 on Jan 17, 2020 7:31:45 GMT -5
I don't mind seeing Williams brought back if the contract is right. Definitely don't want DG to overpay for him. Too many other needs to fill on this roster. Spotrac says the "market value" for Williams is 8M. If that is true and the Giants can bring him back at 5 yrs 40-42 mil then I would be on board for that.
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Post by TCHOF on Jan 17, 2020 7:42:51 GMT -5
Spotrac says the "market value" for Williams is 8M. If that is true and the Giants can bring him back at 5 yrs 40-42 mil then I would be on board for that. I would be stunned if he is signed for less than $12M per
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2020 8:01:29 GMT -5
Who is better? Snacks or Williams? Snacks just signed an 11.5 million dollar extension so the answer to the above question should give everyone a perspective to Williams value. I'm thinking he gets something over $13 million a year minimum.. Snacks is older, but was/is always the better player. I think Williams gets close to $15M/year on the open market. DG, what say you? I think $15M could happen also.. I don't see him signing for the $10M like some fans out here who think that's all he's worth..
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Post by TEM on Jan 17, 2020 8:06:17 GMT -5
Everything I read is his value is under 10 a year Golden is a bit over. Who do you compare him with as far a value? Spotrac says Golden's "market value" is 12M. Did you not read this? I said a bit over 10
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Post by TEM on Jan 17, 2020 8:09:30 GMT -5
If we can sign him for under 10 a year. 5 years 47.5 30 guaranteed . 15 singing bonus. It would be a good deal . Tem I doubt if that's happening. 10 to 12 would be a good deal. If it goes up to 14 we probably pay it. Can't believe we pay more than that. But DG giving up a 3rd might be forced into making a deal not so good. But say 3 years maybe 4 at 10-12 even 13 or 14 looks like a great deal in 2 years. Guarantee him 2 1/2 years of money. He is OT with no sacks and he is not an NT. He is not getting mort than 10 . We let Hankins walk with better production.
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 17, 2020 11:06:40 GMT -5
If they don't keep Williams they wasted a 3rd round pick and will have to replace him. If they don't keep Golden then they have to replace him. If we could sign Ngokue and Shaq Barrett then we can let them both walk. If we don't sign two pass rushers then we have to keep the two we have. You don't get better at rushing the passer by getting rid of your leading pass rusher.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jan 17, 2020 11:16:24 GMT -5
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Post by thetruth on Jan 17, 2020 11:41:28 GMT -5
Its sad this is the best you got. Sad, but expected. But since you took the big step to actually quote me im good with it. Talk football, anything else regarding your thought process does not interest me. Pretty much all your posts here are as useful as used toilet paper Carl,and it seems to be a general consensus around here with how many d......b.. posts you make twards others ... So I'll continue to talk with the actual educated people o here while you be you but at least I have an opinion. You're just amoung the echo chamber group of individuals around here that just pump each other up. Nothing original what so ever, if anyone has a different viewpoint you freak out and make the topic personal. Then, you freak out more when said individuals retort with personal remarks back, lol. Not this time, and you're not the least bit educated on football from what i've seen. So touche, my friend. If you dont respect my opinion dont comment, simple stuff.
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Post by thetruth on Jan 17, 2020 11:44:10 GMT -5
PFF stats favorable for Giants players, the forum reaction : "This player is great!" PFF stats unfavorable for Giants players, the forum reaction: "THESE BRTISH DUDES DONT KNOW ANYTHING" I actually enjoy this dynamic quite a bit. Let me ask you this, whos a better pass rusher, OV or Williams? If I recall Giants fans felt we overpaid for him. Well? If "almost sacks" didn't matter before they sure as heck shouldn't matter now First off let me just say I agree 100% about PFF and people reacting here. Now let me say this really has nothing to do with PFF, this is not a "rating". Sacks, hits and hurries are all NFL stats. Williams was creating pressure, even if he didn't get sacks.
I should also say that I am one of the few people around here that defended OV and didn't want to get rid of him. OV had 7 sacks and 21 hits in 11 games last year. That was very solid, spread across 16 games that is almost identical to Markus Golden this year (although more costly). Williams certainly created less pressure than either one of those, but he isn't primarily a pass rusher like them. OV and Golden certainly are better pass rushers than Williams.
"Almost sacks" always matter, anyone who says otherwise is a fool.
I actually liked OV, he did what he did and played against the 3 best LT's in football 6 times a year without missing snaps. To generate the production he did despite this was excellent, dude didn't complain.
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Post by bringsimmsback on Jan 17, 2020 12:09:38 GMT -5
I said in another thread this may be the case and was emphatically told there was no way it could be
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2020 12:17:50 GMT -5
It will be real nice if this is true!!
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Post by giants38 on Jan 17, 2020 22:52:54 GMT -5
Spotrac says Golden's "market value" is 12M. Would you pay 12m for Golden? His sacks were very opportunistic, not taking any away from him as he was a bright spot. But I don’t feel like he got that “push” consistently. He either capitalised and sacked or he wasen’t relevant, no constant push or double team, rarely even chip blocked id say. Just the messenger.
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Post by giants38 on Jan 17, 2020 23:09:37 GMT -5
They invested too much in him by trading a third round pick+. I'd give him the Franchise tag before letting him walk. How much is the franchise tag? Not cheap I think.
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Post by giants38 on Jan 17, 2020 23:11:38 GMT -5
Spotrac says Golden's "market value" is 12M. Did you not read this? I said a bit over 10 Just quoting Spotrac.
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Post by giantfromtheoz on Jan 18, 2020 0:19:44 GMT -5
Would you pay 12m for Golden? His sacks were very opportunistic, not taking any away from him as he was a bright spot. But I don’t feel like he got that “push” consistently. He either capitalised and sacked or he wasen’t relevant, no constant push or double team, rarely even chip blocked id say. Just the messenger. Haha just my two cents. I was genuinely asking though, would you pay 12m for Golden?
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Post by bringsimmsback on Jan 18, 2020 9:39:07 GMT -5
They invested too much in him by trading a third round pick+. I'd give him the Franchise tag before letting him walk. How much is the franchise tag? Not cheap I think. overthecap.com/franchise-transition-and-rfa-tenders/Too much In a year where we have extra cash, I could see eating a small overpay for one year. If we could somehow argue he is more of a DT, that would be better for us, obviously. That may make him hate us though. My apologies for beating a dead-horse, but I keep bringing up the transition-tag. It would be about 3-4 million less for one year if nothing is signed long-term. We could effectively say, "we are confident you can't do better than 12 mil per year and are willing to match that (or lower, obviously)." We want you to be happy and know you got the most you could get, so go forth and seek dollars. We will be here for you when you are done." If someone out there throws monopoly money, oh well, we lost a third and fifth. If we're confident of our market assessment though, I think that keeps all parties happy (and even better a gamble if 3rd rounder is the comp pick we may get for LC). Gettleman could Franchise Tag him but he took the tag off of Norman and didn't bother using it on Collins and mentioned the player being angry as a factor. He also seemed to not like the idea of tagging and trading. So, I'm not sure he does that. Of course, that may have been only for those players' situations
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Post by DandyDon on Jan 18, 2020 11:33:12 GMT -5
If they don't keep Williams they wasted a 3rd round pick and will have to replace him. If they don't keep Golden then they have to replace him. If we could sign Ngokue and Shaq Barrett then we can let them both walk. If we don't sign two pass rushers then we have to keep the two we have. You don't get better at rushing the passer by getting rid of your leading pass rusher. Yup. You need more than one good rusher - you have to build a pass rush just like you have to build an OL. How many good rushers did we have under TC? 3 at least. Want a better pass rush? Pay the one you have and add more.
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Post by Fletch842 on Jan 18, 2020 11:43:57 GMT -5
Williams might really thrive under the new coaching staff. He is a skilled player. if they can get the best out of him, he could be as good or better than anyone else we might sign.
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 18, 2020 12:21:50 GMT -5
If they don't keep Williams they wasted a 3rd round pick and will have to replace him. If they don't keep Golden then they have to replace him. If we could sign Ngokue and Shaq Barrett then we can let them both walk. If we don't sign two pass rushers then we have to keep the two we have. You don't get better at rushing the passer by getting rid of your leading pass rusher. Yup. You need more than one good rusher - you have to build a pass rush just like you have to build an OL. How many good rushers did we have under TC? 3 at least. Want a better pass rush? Pay the one you have and add more. I'm tired of getting rid of our top pass rusher and wondering why our pass rush stinks. Started 4-5 years ago when Ayers lead the team and we got rid of him, then JPP we got rid of him, then OV got rid of him, now Golden and people want to get rid of him lol. You nailed it, you have to build your pass rush just like the OL, it's not one piece it's several. You add Ngokue or Shaq Barrett to Williams and Golden and our pass will be pretty damn good; throw in Simmons in the draft and suddenly we would have a pretty formidable pass rush.
I'm hoping Ximines keeps coming along. Considering how few snaps he played he got a decent number of rushes. But we still have to plan on adding more pass rush pieces. I think we will make a big push for Ngokue and/or Shaq Barrett.
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 18, 2020 12:25:00 GMT -5
Williams might really thrive under the new coaching staff. He is a skilled player. if they can get the best out of him, he could be as good or better than anyone else we might sign. People will laugh at you for that but go take a look at Shaq Barrett with and NFL leading 19.5 sacks this year. Prior to this season he had 5.5, 1.5, 4.5 and 3 sacks in each season and his QB hits were really low with 12 being the most. A change in team or coaching can make a world of difference to guys.
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Post by DandyDon on Jan 18, 2020 12:26:31 GMT -5
Yup. You need more than one good rusher - you have to build a pass rush just like you have to build an OL. How many good rushers did we have under TC? 3 at least. Want a better pass rush? Pay the one you have and add more. I'm tired of getting rid of our top pass rusher and wondering why our pass rush stinks. Started 4-5 years ago when Ayers lead the team and we got rid of him, then JPP we got rid of him, then OV got rid of him, now Golden and people want to get rid of him lol. You nailed it, you have to build your pass rush just like the OL, it's not one piece it's several. You add Ngokue or Shaq Barrett to Williams and Golden and our pass will be pretty damn good; throw in Simmons in the draft and suddenly we would have a pretty formidable pass rush.
I'm hoping Ximines keeps coming along. Considering how few snaps he played he got a decent number of rushes. But we still have to plan on adding more pass rush pieces. I think we will make a big push for Ngokue and/or Shaq Barrett.
+100. There are a lot of peeps here that never, ever want to pay a player unless he is basically superman. There are some supermen in the league, but not too many that can create a pass rush all on their own.
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Post by Delicreep on Jan 18, 2020 12:59:47 GMT -5
I'm tired of getting rid of our top pass rusher and wondering why our pass rush stinks. Started 4-5 years ago when Ayers lead the team and we got rid of him, then JPP we got rid of him, then OV got rid of him, now Golden and people want to get rid of him lol. You nailed it, you have to build your pass rush just like the OL, it's not one piece it's several. You add Ngokue or Shaq Barrett to Williams and Golden and our pass will be pretty damn good; throw in Simmons in the draft and suddenly we would have a pretty formidable pass rush.
I'm hoping Ximines keeps coming along. Considering how few snaps he played he got a decent number of rushes. But we still have to plan on adding more pass rush pieces. I think we will make a big push for Ngokue and/or Shaq Barrett.
+100. There are a lot of peeps here that never, ever want to pay a player unless he is basically superman. There are some supermen in the league, but not too many that can create a pass rush all on their own. Well...Superman who plays for the league minimum.
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Post by Fletch842 on Jan 18, 2020 13:13:26 GMT -5
Williams might really thrive under the new coaching staff. He is a skilled player. if they can get the best out of him, he could be as good or better than anyone else we might sign. People will laugh at you for that but go take a look at Shaq Barrett with and NFL leading 19.5 sacks this year. Prior to this season he had 5.5, 1.5, 4.5 and 3 sacks in each season and his QB hits were really low with 12 being the most. A change in team or coaching can make a world of difference to guys. Let em laugh, I can take the internet tough guys... Seriously though, if you listen to what Judge says, he could be the perfect coach for a player like Williams.
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Post by IrishMike on Jan 18, 2020 13:25:37 GMT -5
People will laugh at you for that but go take a look at Shaq Barrett with and NFL leading 19.5 sacks this year. Prior to this season he had 5.5, 1.5, 4.5 and 3 sacks in each season and his QB hits were really low with 12 being the most. A change in team or coaching can make a world of difference to guys. Let em laugh, I can take the internet tough guys... Seriously though, if you listen to what Judge says, he could be the perfect coach for a player like Williams. Williams was pretty good here last year. I imagine with the D game plan involving him from training camp he will be even better.
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Post by DandyDon on Jan 18, 2020 14:44:45 GMT -5
+100. There are a lot of peeps here that never, ever want to pay a player unless he is basically superman. There are some supermen in the league, but not too many that can create a pass rush all on their own. Well...Superman who plays for the league minimum. Right. On a one year league minimum "show me" deal.
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