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Post by McCherry on Mar 27, 2021 9:57:26 GMT -5
Hey, TCHOF, which part is false? I thought I remember the bag of doughnuts story. Did some team offer the Giants 3 firsts? Or is DG really Joe Judge's errand boy now? Dave admitted in an interview with Mike Francesca that he did get a reasonable offer for the #2 pick. Dave has also admitted that once the Giants were on the clock (when you would expect offers to intensify) he told his staff not to take any calls, which is an indefensible move. miked knows all this ... just doesn’t fit in with his pro-Dave narrative For the second pick you don't take reasonable offers, you take amazing, unrefusable offers. Like 3 first-round picks....If a team was serious about moving up, they would've done it before the Giants were on the clock. And for 3 first-rounders, Gettleman would've thrown in his firstborn, on the clock or not. It's a silly speculation because as we saw when the Jets moved up, the value for the pick wasn't there. Which you’re ignoring because of your anti-Gettleman narrative.
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Post by TEM on Mar 27, 2021 9:57:29 GMT -5
When you compared it to what to what the Dolphins just received. The Colts were Fleeced. 3 seconds compared to 3 firsts is not even in the same universe. Brilliant is not the word I would have used. one has nothing to do with the other. You honestly can’t see it. No it is the same. You set a price on when you will trade the pick and stick to it. It tells me there was not market wort trading down in 18.
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Post by moecoastie on Mar 27, 2021 10:06:14 GMT -5
Hey, TCHOF, which part is false? I thought I remember the bag of doughnuts story. Did some team offer the Giants 3 firsts? Or is DG really Joe Judge's errand boy now? Dave admitted in an interview with Mike Francesca that he did get a reasonable offer for the #2 pick. Dave has also admitted that once the Giants were on the clock (when you would expect offers to intensify) he told his staff not to take any calls, which is an indefensible move. miked knows all this ... just doesn’t fit in with his pro-Dave narrative yeah, I heard all these interview when they happened... Dave walked back on the statement he made at the draft as to not sound as offensive the 2nd time around. It was obvious if you listen to the interview but Im sure you didnt. Same way I would ask my college buddy if he met any nice girls. In the moment he would say "they were all dogs"...then I'd tell him to repeat it later all while telling a story and he'd change it to "they were ok" People say asshole things, if given a chance most wont repeat it
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Post by Rangers13 on Mar 27, 2021 10:07:04 GMT -5
one has nothing to do with the other. You honestly can’t see it. No it is the same. You set a price on when you will trade the pick and stick to it. It tells me there was not market wort trading down in 18. Ask yourself (or maybe you have ask others) where the Jets traded up from and where the 49er did. The market also includes supply/demand with an emphasis on demand which is much higher today than it was in 18 as more teams are looking QB. That’s the market and exactly why these trades were made. The Giants didn’t do shiat and it appears you would have done no different b/c you wouldn’t have even accepted the Colts deal. So you would be stuck at #2.
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Post by TEM on Mar 27, 2021 10:11:02 GMT -5
No it is the same. You set a price on when you will trade the pick and stick to it. It tells me there was not market wort trading down in 18. Ask yourself (or maybe you have ask others) where the Jets traded up from and where the 49er did. T he market also includes supply/demand with an emphasis on demand which is much higher today than it was in 18 as more teams are looking QB. That’s the market and exactly why these trades were made. The Giants didn’t do shiat and it appears you would have done no different b/c you wouldn’t have even accepted the Colts deal. So you would be stuck at #2. The demand was not there in 18. You set your price . If there are no takers. You pick who is on your board. Would you sell your restored 69 Camaro for the same price of a Honda Civic because that is the best offer you got?
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Post by Rangers13 on Mar 27, 2021 10:20:33 GMT -5
Ask yourself (or maybe you have ask others) where the Jets traded up from and where the 49er did. T he market also includes supply/demand with an emphasis on demand which is much higher today than it was in 18 as more teams are looking QB. That’s the market and exactly why these trades were made. The Giants didn’t do shiat and it appears you would have done no different b/c you wouldn’t have even accepted the Colts deal. So you would be stuck at #2. T he demand was not there in 18. You set your price . If there are no takers. You pick who is on your board. You just called yourself out and made my point. Thank you - The demand is there today and was not in 18 whereas you said the market was the same the previous post - the 49ers had to move up farther than the Jets yet you feel it’s the same - you wouldn’t have accepted a swapped close #1’s and three #2’s b/c you would hold for a Miami/49er deal even though the draft position and demand is different . . . yet was the same in previous posts. Ok You would be stuck at #2.
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Post by TEM on Mar 27, 2021 10:32:07 GMT -5
T he demand was not there in 18. You set your price . If there are no takers. You pick who is on your board. You just called yourself out and made my point. Thank you - The demand is there today and was not in 18 whereas you said the market was the same the previous post - the 49ers had to move up farther than the Jets yet you feel it’s the same - you wouldn’t have accepted a swapped close #1’s and three #2’s b/c you would hold for a Miami/49er deal even though the draft position and demand is different . . . yet was the same in previous posts. Ok You would be stuck at #2. Did you read post 48 . Apparently not. If the market is there or not is inconsequential to what what price you want to sell at. That is my point and has been my point. The FO set its price. They did not sell and you seem to have a problem with that. You are saying all these things none of which came to fruition. The giants did not move the pick because there was no "I can't refuse offers" on the table. Can I assume you fail to see that as an option?
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Post by Rangers13 on Mar 27, 2021 10:39:49 GMT -5
You just called yourself out and made my point. Thank you - The demand is there today and was not in 18 whereas you said the market was the same the previous post - the 49ers had to move up farther than the Jets yet you feel it’s the same - you wouldn’t have accepted a swapped close #1’s and three #2’s b/c you would hold for a Miami/49er deal even though the draft position and demand is different . . . yet was the same in previous posts. Ok You would be stuck at #2. Did you read post 48 . Apparently not. If the market is there or not is inconsequential to what what price you want to sell at. That is my point and has been my point. The FO set its price. They did not sell and you seem to have a problem with that. You are saying all these things none of which came to fruition. The giants did not move the pick because there was no "I can't refuse offers" on the table. Can I assume you fail to see that as an option? lol, you know i’m responding to post #62.
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Post by TEM on Mar 27, 2021 10:55:27 GMT -5
Did you read post 48 . Apparently not. If the market is there or not is inconsequential to what what price you want to sell at. That is my point and has been my point. The FO set its price. They did not sell and you seem to have a problem with that. You are saying all these things none of which came to fruition. The giants did not move the pick because there was no "I can't refuse offers" on the table. Can I assume you fail to see that as an option? lol, you know i’m responding to post #62. There was not market for that FOs price. A simple concept. ( it was conveyed in 62) What i wrote No it is the same. Y ou set a price on when you will trade the pick and stick to it. It tells me there was not market worth trading down in 18. The market is irrelevant to what you are willing to sell at. you stick to your price. Why ? Because you are not forced to sell. Again: I will ask The giants did not move the pick because there was no "I can't refuse offers" on the table. Can I assume you fail to see that as an option? I am not asking you to consider "what if" scenarios Me I would have want a swap, and 2 ones A swap ,a first, and 3 seconds One second a conditional (Must be before pick 50 or you get their 4 round pick also) A 1st 2 seconds and 2 thirds. (Same conditional 2nd)
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Post by imgrate on Mar 27, 2021 11:02:17 GMT -5
You just called yourself out and made my point. Thank you - The demand is there today and was not in 18 whereas you said the market was the same the previous post - the 49ers had to move up farther than the Jets yet you feel it’s the same - you wouldn’t have accepted a swapped close #1’s and three #2’s b/c you would hold for a Miami/49er deal even though the draft position and demand is different . . . yet was the same in previous posts. Ok You would be stuck at #2. Did you read post 48 . Apparently not. If the market is there or not is inconsequential to what what price you want to sell at. That is my point and has been my point. The FO set its price. They did not sell and you seem to have a problem with that. You are saying all these things none of which came to fruition. The giants did not move the pick because there was no "I can't refuse offers" on the table. Can I assume you fail to see that as an option? Not sure if rangers is thinking the same as me, but if you're a team that is considering taking a RB at #2, then the level of the offer doesn't need to be all that big to be in the realm of "can't refuse" because of how bad of a decision it is to take a RB at 2. Any trade that facilitates you not drafting a rb at #2 is worth it. Of course the catch is if you (you=DG in this case) are silly enough to want to take a RB at #2, then you also would be blind to how readily willing you should be to trade back.
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Post by imgrate on Mar 27, 2021 11:05:34 GMT -5
lol, you know i’m responding to post #62. There was not market for that FOs price. A simple concept. ( it was conveyed in 62) What i wrote No it is the same. Y ou set a price on when you will trade the pick and stick to it. It tells me there was not market worth trading down in 18. The market is irrelevant to what you are willing to sell at. you stick to your price. Why ? Because you are not forced to sell. Again: I will ask The giants did not move the pick because there was no "I can't refuse offers" on the table. Can I assume you fail to see that as an option? I am not asking you to consider "what if" scenarios Me I would have want a swap, and 2 ones A swap ,a first, and 3 seconds One second a conditional (Must be before pick 50 or you get their 4 round pick also) A 1st 2 seconds and 2 thirds. (Same conditional 2nd) Yep, either what you're saying is what happened or DG was not going to take any offer at all. What I'm saying is that if you're not taking a premiere position at #2, then as long as you're fetching something in a trade, then it's worth trading out of that spot.
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 27, 2021 11:12:05 GMT -5
You wouldn’t have taken the Jets deal to move down to 6? No I would not have. But I am a make them pay for it kind of guy. Would you have? Would you have trashed the GM for giving it away? IMO: ( the entire board would have) I could have seen that happening. Just by the Delusions of Grandeur in this thread. This thread would have been exactly the same if we made the same deal the Jets made. F-en GM sucks he gave that pick away. Move down 4 spots to pick up 3 second rounders? I would have done that in a second.
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 27, 2021 11:13:10 GMT -5
Dave admitted in an interview with Mike Francesca that he did get a reasonable offer for the #2 pick. Dave has also admitted that once the Giants were on the clock (when you would expect offers to intensify) he told his staff not to take any calls, which is an indefensible move. miked knows all this ... just doesn’t fit in with his pro-Dave narrative For the second pick you don't take reasonable offers, you take amazing, unrefusable offers. Like 3 first-round picks....If a team was serious about moving up, they would've done it before the Giants were on the clock. And for 3 first-rounders, Gettleman would've thrown in his firstborn, on the clock or not. It's a silly speculation because as we saw when the Jets moved up, the value for the pick wasn't there. Which you’re ignoring because of your anti-Gettleman narrative. You think that it was a good decision for Gettleman to stop taking calls once he was on the clock?
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Post by TEM on Mar 27, 2021 11:13:15 GMT -5
No I would not have. But I am a make them pay for it kind of guy. Would you have? Would you have trashed the GM for giving it away? IMO: ( the entire board would have) I could have seen that happening. Just by the Delusions of Grandeur in this thread. This thread would have been exactly the same if we made the same deal the Jets made. F-en GM sucks he gave that pick away. Move down 4 spots to pick up 3 second rounders? I would have done that in a second. Not me 2 round pick does not = impact player.
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 27, 2021 11:15:50 GMT -5
Dave admitted in an interview with Mike Francesca that he did get a reasonable offer for the #2 pick. Dave has also admitted that once the Giants were on the clock (when you would expect offers to intensify) he told his staff not to take any calls, which is an indefensible move. miked knows all this ... just doesn’t fit in with his pro-Dave narrative yeah, I heard all these interview when they happened... Dave walked back on the statement he made at the draft as to not sound as offensive the 2nd time around. It was obvious if you listen to the interview but Im sure you didnt. Same way I would ask my college buddy if he met any nice girls. In the moment he would say "they were all dogs"...then I'd tell him to repeat it later all while telling a story and he'd change it to "they were ok" People say asshole things, if given a chance most wont repeat it Nice spin. Amazing the mental gymnastics that some will do to support a GM who has brought 15 wins in three years.
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Post by TEM on Mar 27, 2021 11:17:04 GMT -5
For the second pick you don't take reasonable offers, you take amazing, unrefusable offers. Like 3 first-round picks....If a team was serious about moving up, they would've done it before the Giants were on the clock. And for 3 first-rounders, Gettleman would've thrown in his firstborn, on the clock or not. It's a silly speculation because as we saw when the Jets moved up, the value for the pick wasn't there. Which you’re ignoring because of your anti-Gettleman narrative. You think that it was a good decision for Gettleman to stop taking calls once he was on the clock? I do . As I have stated numerous times . All the GMs had the time between the SB and the draft . Almost 3 months to make their cannot refuse this offer bid for the pick Why wait until the last 10 minuets to secure that pick?
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 27, 2021 11:17:29 GMT -5
Move down 4 spots to pick up 3 second rounders? I would have done that in a second. Not me 2 round pick does not = impact player. You’re joking, right? Tell that to Strahan, Tiki, Snee, Webster, Osi, Toomer, etc.
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Post by Sarcasman on Mar 27, 2021 11:23:16 GMT -5
Ben Albright (who is a pretty dialed-in guy) said at the time that the Broncos offered the Giants their 2019 first rounder to move up from 5 to 2. Maybe that was the “reasonable” deal? Who knows That seems reasonable but I don't blame DG dor staying pat. I would have probably taken that deal but it isn't in the same universe as that multi first round pick by the 49rs. Can’t we just continue to pretend it is?
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Post by TEM on Mar 27, 2021 11:26:00 GMT -5
There was not market for that FOs price. A simple concept. ( it was conveyed in 62) What i wrote No it is the same. Y ou set a price on when you will trade the pick and stick to it. It tells me there was not market worth trading down in 18. The market is irrelevant to what you are willing to sell at. you stick to your price. Why ? Because you are not forced to sell. Again: I will ask The giants did not move the pick because there was no "I can't refuse offers" on the table. Can I assume you fail to see that as an option? I am not asking you to consider "what if" scenarios Me I would have want a swap, and 2 ones A swap ,a first, and 3 seconds One second a conditional (Must be before pick 50 or you get their 4 round pick also) A 1st 2 seconds and 2 thirds. (Same conditional 2nd) Yep, either what you're saying is what happened or DG was not going to take any offer at all. What I'm saying is that if you're not taking a premiere position at #2, then as long as you're fetching something in a trade, then it's worth trading out of that spot. Here is the difference. And it is well chronicled on this board that I did not want to pick Barkley. With that said. I am looking at it from the GMs point of view. I am sure the owner and the GM set that we'll trade that pick price together. I am looking at it from their point of view. Because from where i am standing ( now after the pick is made). The owner and the GM both coveted Barkley even though there was a price on that pick . Now if the Giants refused with the Dolphins just received. Than it is a diffrent conversation.
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Post by TEM on Mar 27, 2021 11:27:40 GMT -5
Not me 2 round pick does not = impact player. You’re joking, right? Tell that to Strahan, Tiki, Snee, Webster, Osi, Toomer, etc. How many have not. the history of the draft shows the the 1 round id better odds. I will do the math if you want to see it. It may take a week to go through the cap era.
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Post by Sarcasman on Mar 27, 2021 11:35:23 GMT -5
You’re joking, right? Tell that to Strahan, Tiki, Snee, Webster, Osi, Toomer, etc. How many have not. the history of the draft shows the the 1 round id better odds. I will do the math if you want to see it. It may take a week to go through the cap era. That seems like a lot of work for a simple argument over varying opinions. Don’t forget to factor in that you’re dealing with the 2018 all world QB class because all of those future Hall of Famers would demand a king’s ransom such as the world has never seen before. When modeling hypothetical scenarios it’s necessary to set an absolute upper range.
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Post by imgrate on Mar 27, 2021 11:37:30 GMT -5
You’re joking, right? Tell that to Strahan, Tiki, Snee, Webster, Osi, Toomer, etc. How many have not. the history of the draft shows the the 1 round id better odds. I will do the math if you want to see it. It may take a week to go through the cap era. There's some data out there that people have compiled, but not anyone that's done it "right" in my opinion, because there's just so much to consider. For example alot of datasets base it off of how many games a player starts, but 1st round picks generally get more time to prove themselves even if they suck, so does it really matter if you start a bunch of games and are as good as Ereck Flowers? If PFF grades were a reliable source, then that would be the way to do it. There's just no good measuring stick available to us of how good a player was throughout his career to then compare back to his draft position. And then, theres obviously injuries to factor in. That said, one measuring stick is number of probowlers per round. Generally speaking, the second round has historically produced a little less than half as many probowlers than the first round, on average. So in that frame of measurement, 3 2nd round picks would be worth it to move back a few spots in the 1st round.
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Post by TEM on Mar 27, 2021 11:38:05 GMT -5
How many have not. the history of the draft shows the the 1 round id better odds. I will do the math if you want to see it. It may take a week to go through the cap era. That seems like a lot of work for a simple argument over varying opinions. If I recall correctly. I could be wrong. I think it is like 40% in the first. It drops into the 20 percentile in the 2nd
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Post by TEM on Mar 27, 2021 11:40:19 GMT -5
How many have not. the history of the draft shows the the 1 round id better odds. I will do the math if you want to see it. It may take a week to go through the cap era. There's some data out there that people have compiled, but not anyone that's done it "right" in my opinion, because there's just so much to consider. For example alot of datasets base it off of how many games a player starts, but 1st round picks generally get more time to prove themselves even if they suck, so does it really matter if you start a bunch of games and are as good as Ereck Flowers? If PFF grades were a reliable source, then that would be the way to do it. There's just no good measuring stick available to us of how good a player was throughout his career to then compare back to his draft position. And then, theres obviously injuries to factor in. I would do it by snap count. Cost per snap for career ( by position group), Win loss, and if all pro. ( that to me describes impact player)
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Post by imgrate on Mar 27, 2021 11:43:21 GMT -5
There's some data out there that people have compiled, but not anyone that's done it "right" in my opinion, because there's just so much to consider. For example alot of datasets base it off of how many games a player starts, but 1st round picks generally get more time to prove themselves even if they suck, so does it really matter if you start a bunch of games and are as good as Ereck Flowers? If PFF grades were a reliable source, then that would be the way to do it. There's just no good measuring stick available to us of how good a player was throughout his career to then compare back to his draft position. And then, theres obviously injuries to factor in. I would do it by snap count. Cost per snap for career Win loss, and if all pro. ( that to me describes impact player) I edited my post after ya quoted and we both used somewhat similar numbers, that generally speaking the 1st round is about twice as effective as the 2nd round. So that said wouldn't 3 second rounders be worth a 1st round pick? Let alone also getting a 1st round pick along with the second rounders?
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Post by TEM on Mar 27, 2021 11:50:45 GMT -5
I would do it by snap count. Cost per snap for career Win loss, and if all pro. ( that to me describes impact player) I edited my post after ya quoted and we both used somewhat similar numbers, that generally speaking the 1st round is about twice as effective as the 2nd round. So that said wouldn't 3 second rounders be worth a 1st round pick? Let alone also getting a 1st round pick along with the second rounders? Me I do not . At # 2 you at least get a swap and a 1st, to even negotiate the remainder. With 3 twos you could conceivably receive 3 pick 64s. You have to look at it from worst case scenario. That is why a 1st is essential + as I said at least 1 conditional #2.
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Post by moecoastie on Mar 27, 2021 12:31:01 GMT -5
yeah, I heard all these interview when they happened... Dave walked back on the statement he made at the draft as to not sound as offensive the 2nd time around. It was obvious if you listen to the interview but Im sure you didnt. Same way I would ask my college buddy if he met any nice girls. In the moment he would say "they were all dogs"...then I'd tell him to repeat it later all while telling a story and he'd change it to "they were ok" People say asshole things, if given a chance most wont repeat it Nice spin. Amazing the mental gymnastics that some will do to support a GM who has brought 15 wins in three years. same could be said for your side of the fence....at the end of the day, nobody really knows.
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Post by Blue Hulk on Mar 27, 2021 13:08:00 GMT -5
Dave's quote about the quality of the offers we received is well known. Hey, I would've loved to have gotten 3 first round picks to move out the second that year. So would Gettleman and every member of the Giants front office. Tell me what specific offers he got. Dave was going to draft Saquan no matter what he was offered. he said himself that he didn't even answer the phone when he was on the clock.
The value of the 2nd pick is clear. Two years before the Eagles moved up to the 2nd from the 8th spot for two 1st's, a 2nd, 3rd and a 4th.
That was to move up 6 spots.
But you seem to be claiming that magically, only in the 2018 draft, the second pick had very little value. Not only claiming that, you mocked the idea of the obvious fact that the pick had just as great value, probably more in a strong QB draft than the 3rd pick this year.
You have NO leg to stand on.
I don't see why he doesn't get it.. I guess he never saw the draft value chart and assumes teams can low ball for the 2nd overall.
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Post by Rangers13 on Mar 27, 2021 15:55:07 GMT -5
Not me 2 round pick does not = impact player. You’re joking, right? Tell that to Strahan, Tiki, Snee, Webster, Osi, Toomer, etc. The draft chart, cap dollars, percentage of players who make the team, longevity and odds on a second contract all indicate the value of 2nd Rounders is high. When you don’t knows this, where do you start?
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Post by jb456 on Mar 27, 2021 16:04:26 GMT -5
No I would not have. But I am a make them pay for it kind of guy. Would you have? Would you have trashed the GM for giving it away? IMO: ( the entire board would have) I could have seen that happening. Just by the Delusions of Grandeur in this thread. This thread would have been exactly the same if we made the same deal the Jets made. F-en GM sucks he gave that pick away. Move down 4 spots to pick up 3 second rounders? I would have done that in a second. I would 100 percent do that but the Giants were just as likely to get 3 1sts from the Jets as they were getting 3 2s. Never would that offer reach the Giants. Too much risk on both sides.
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