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Post by Morehead State on Jul 5, 2021 18:51:49 GMT -5
I completely agree that our WR's were lousy last year. My problem is watching him constantly no feeling the rush in the pocket. His pocket awareness has not improved since his rookie year.
He had the same WR's in 2019 with better results in the passing game.
We've seen big strides with young QB's in season 2 generally. We didn't see that last year. 12 TD passes is unacceptable.
But that aside, I'm not suggesting that Jones and Alex Smith have the exact same skill set. I am saying that the productivity of Alex Smith is essentially Jones' ceiling. I watched the guy have a huge game in the playoffs against N.O. when he was in SF. He made a lot of plays. he was also very mobile, like DJ is.
Ultimately, my point is that we don't need DJ to be a star. We need him to run the offense and make the plays when they are there. I think he's capable of that.
In his 16-year career, Alex Smith only once topped Daniels season high in TD's. And only twice in passing yards. If that was Jones ceiling, we’d have a new QB right now. Never in his career did he ever play as many as 14 games and have as few as 11 TD passes. Not even close actually.
At this point, if DJ had Alex Smith's career, that would be a better than expected outcome. At least in my view.
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 5, 2021 18:53:53 GMT -5
I completely agree that our WR's were lousy last year. My problem is watching him constantly no feeling the rush in the pocket. His pocket awareness has not improved since his rookie year.
He had the same WR's in 2019 with better results in the passing game.
We've seen big strides with young QB's in season 2 generally. We didn't see that last year. 12 TD passes is unacceptable.
But that aside, I'm not suggesting that Jones and Alex Smith have the exact same skill set. I am saying that the productivity of Alex Smith is essentially Jones' ceiling. I watched the guy have a huge game in the playoffs against N.O. when he was in SF. He made a lot of plays. he was also very mobile, like DJ is.
Ultimately, my point is that we don't need DJ to be a star. We need him to run the offense and make the plays when they are there. I think he's capable of that.
I agree with this. All he has to do is allow the players around him to emphasize. I think his pocket awareness will come around. It is his lack of progression through his reads. Not understanding who his number 1 target will be according to the Defensive formation. And My biggest problem I see what him. Picking his target and staring him down. I believe it is all fixable. There is a lot going on there that talent alone will not correct. I would argue that going through his progressions comes with pocket presence. Calm in the pocket enables a QB to make good decisions.
You know what really makes Brady great?.......He has ice water in his veins. His feet are dead silent in the pocket. The guy is completely calm with chaos around him.
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Post by TEM on Jul 5, 2021 18:54:55 GMT -5
I agree with this. All he has to do is allow the players around him to emphasize. I think his pocket awareness will come around. It is his lack of progression through his reads. Not understanding who his number 1 target will be according to the Defensive formation. And My biggest problem I see what him. Picking his target and staring him down. I believe it is all fixable. There is a lot going on there that talent alone will not correct. I would argue that going through his progressions comes with pocket presence. Calm in the pocket enables a QB to make good decisions. I can agree with that.
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Post by Jomo on Jul 5, 2021 18:55:58 GMT -5
In his 16-year career, Alex Smith only once topped Daniels season high in TD's. And only twice in passing yards. If that was Jones ceiling, we’d have a new QB right now. Never in his career did he ever play as many as 14 games and have as few as 11 TD passes. Not even close actually.
At this point, if DJ had Alex Smith's career, that would be a better than expected outcome. At least in my view.
I really appreciate people with conviction. You certainly have it on this topic. On the other hand, I am totally committed to wait and see for 7 more months. I just think that with the wretched talent around him over the past 2 years, a rookie season, a new head coach, a new QB coach, a new OC, a covid season and his injures....... there are just too many unknowns for me to commit on this topic.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jul 5, 2021 18:55:59 GMT -5
So why are we still picked by many to be in the bottom half of the league? Answer:.....Daniel Jones.
So my view is that we pretty much DO know what DJ is.
People don't like Daniel Jones so we (the fans) do know what he is already? Seems strange to me. See the thing is from day 1 the media was against Jones. Not because he was a rapping WR but because he was not who they thought we should pick. Because DG didn't pick a QB the year prior in the "best QB class ever" and then when he did pick a QB it was a kid from Duke not from Ohio State.
Those same media folks that were against Daniel Jones and DG are the ones predicting us to be in the bottom half of the league. No we don't know what Jones is and damn sure should not base that decision on what these media folks predict. I have my own eyes and I'll let them decide thank you. We get it, you don't think we can have success with Jones, I look forward to him proving you wrong.
Mike I like how you emphasized the best QB class ever lol. Glad the title still belongs to Eli Ben and Rivers. Jones has the tools to be as good as anyone drafted in that class and his class Murray has had talent around from the jump to me that is the difference between him and Daniel he has had better talent and it was added to in year 2 and he stayed in the same offense that was similar to what he did in college.
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Post by McCherry on Jul 5, 2021 18:56:40 GMT -5
In his 16-year career, Alex Smith only once topped Daniels season high in TD's. And only twice in passing yards. If that was Jones ceiling, we’d have a new QB right now. Never in his career did he ever play as many as 14 games and have as few as 11 TD passes. Not even close actually.
At this point, if DJ had Alex Smith's career, that would be a better than expected outcome. At least in my view.
You're projecting Jones entirely based on one stat from year 2. If Jones turns out to be anything like Smith, he won't have a career in NY.
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 5, 2021 18:57:18 GMT -5
I would argue that going through his progressions comes with pocket presence. Calm in the pocket enables a QB to make good decisions. I can agree with that. It's his #1 shortcoming in my opinion. He can throw it. He's got a great attitude. He is mobile. He's a generally good passer.
He's just not aware of what's around him. Maybe that will improve with more experience. But often that is something you either have or you don't.
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 5, 2021 18:59:49 GMT -5
Never in his career did he ever play as many as 14 games and have as few as 11 TD passes. Not even close actually.
At this point, if DJ had Alex Smith's career, that would be a better than expected outcome. At least in my view.
You're projecting Jones entirely based on one stat from year 2. If Jones turns out to be anything like Smith, he won't have a career in NY. I'm basing my view on watching DJ in the pocket over the past 2 seasons.
He's completely unaware of what's going on around him. In my view, his reduction of turnovers last year came at the expense of productivity. He's now afraid to turn it over and I think you need to protect the ball and still make plays.
And I disagree with your point about Smith/Jones. If we win with Jones, he'll be fine here. he doesn't need to be great. We just need to win with him at QB.
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Post by DandyDon on Jul 5, 2021 19:01:42 GMT -5
So why are we still picked by many to be in the bottom half of the league? Answer:.....Daniel Jones.
So my view is that we pretty much DO know what DJ is.
People don't like Daniel Jones so we (the fans) do know what he is already? Seems strange to me. See the thing is from day 1 the media was against Jones. Not because he was a rapping WR but because he was not who they thought we should pick. Because DG didn't pick a QB the year prior in the "best QB class ever" and then when he did pick a QB it was a kid from Duke not from Ohio State.
Those same media folks that were against Daniel Jones and DG are the ones predicting us to be in the bottom half of the league. No we don't know what Jones is and damn sure should not base that decision on what these media folks predict. I have my own eyes and I'll let them decide thank you. We get it, you don't think we can have success with Jones, I look forward to him proving you wrong.
I think many didn't like that he was drafted at all, or didn't like where he was drafted. Personally, I think there's more good than bad, even though the results haven't been good. I do agree if the Giants are relatively healthy, he has the talent around him to have a breakout year. But it's silly to be projecting his max as another Alex Smith after 2 seasons? His ability to throw down field is WAY better than Smith, as is his ability to make a difference with his legs.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jul 5, 2021 19:02:24 GMT -5
This is a back handed compliment thread if I ever saw one. I would grant you that the jury is decidedly out on Jones but I wouldn't rule out any possibility for him. He could still be a bust but there is reason enough to believe that he could be better than a "solid game manager." I am just not that sure where this will wind up but one thing I know for certain is that 8 months from now we'll have a full understanding of where Jones slots. Well maybe so. I just tend to look at our players more realistically.
After two years, while we've seen flashes, we haven't seen the kind of consistent play we hoped we would. to me it's still about his poor pocket awareness. He does seem to have a lot of tools. But without that calm in the pocket, it's not easy to be a successful NFL QB.
It's all of our hope that he breaks through in season 3. He certainly has the weapons. But the odds are less than I would have liked at this point. At this pont, I would be happy to see him manage the offense and keep the turnovers to a minimum. Thus the Alex Smith comparison.
We don't know anything about this kid he has played in two different systems in his first 2 years, had an injury last year that he should have been out for 4 to 6 games at least, and had a young OL in training, his WRs had no #1 and he was a few drops from 7-9 or and 8-8 season, there are more reasons to believe he can still be a good NFL QB then not.
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Post by TEM on Jul 5, 2021 19:02:51 GMT -5
It's his #1 shortcoming in my opinion. He can throw it. He's got a great attitude. He is mobile. He's a generally good passer.
He's just not aware of what's around him. Maybe that will improve with more experience. But often that is something you either have or you don't.
I am optimistic he will get it together. I see it this year against a top 10 team. Down by 6 in the 4h with under 2 minutes on the clock on his own 20. He is going to have an Aha moment. And he will be a diffrent QB form then on.
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Post by GameTime on Jul 5, 2021 19:17:57 GMT -5
- we dont know what he will be yet - we dont know if he "needs" a lot of top performing weapons. Then again all 99% of the QBs do - 11 wins and "only solid game manager"? Sorry...game managers dont win 11 games.
I am more positive about Jones, his pocket awareness and the rest of his game. Thats just how I am .
Why would I think he is just going to be some average NFL QB? If thats the case then cut him now because that will not be good enough
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2021 19:19:45 GMT -5
Brady 2.0
That's all
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Post by TCHOF on Jul 5, 2021 19:31:09 GMT -5
I’m not ready to cap his ceiling at Alex Smith.
Talk to me after this season
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Post by IrishMike on Jul 5, 2021 19:34:30 GMT -5
Mike I like how you emphasized the best QB class ever lol. Glad the title still belongs to Eli Ben and Rivers. Jones has the tools to be as good as anyone drafted in that class and his class Murray has had talent around from the jump to me that is the difference between him and Daniel he has had better talent and it was added to in year 2 and he stayed in the same offense that was similar to what he did in college. I'm not sure Eli's class beats the Elway/Marino/Kelly class but they are certainly 1a and 1b IMO. I just laugh how much people actually said that line "best QB draft class ever". Not looking so hot now. Sure maybe Rosen and Darnold got shit deals, if it was the best damn class ever them getting a bad deal wouldn't matter. Eli and Rivers didn't go to great situations. Josh Allen didn't go to a great situation. Baker Mayfield didn't go to a great situation.
We will see what Jones can do this year. His WRs are the exact type that he needs. They should mesh very well.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2021 19:35:19 GMT -5
OK folks. Spending spree is over. The team looks solid. The defense is very strong both up front and in the secondary. Saquan will be back. The weapons are in place.
So why are we still picked by many to be in the bottom half of the league? Answer:.....Daniel Jones.
So my view is that we pretty much DO know what DJ is. To me his upside comparison is a guy like Alex Smith. That's not an insult. I like Alex Smith. Don't forget at the time of his horrible injury the Redskins were in 1st place. You could win with Alex Smith.......and I think we can win with Daniel Jones.
But let's face it, what we need from DJ is to be a solid game manager. He needs to make the right calls. Make the throws when they're there, and get some first downs with his feet....As I said....Alex Smith.
He needs lot of weapons to succeed and he has them. DJ will never be a premier NFL QB. That ship has sailed as far as I'm concerned. His pocket awareness probably won't get much better. But I DO think we can still win with him. He just needs to not stink....and I don't think he will.
I see 11 wins this year without crippling injuries. I think Jones can function with this offense. And that's all I expect. I expect him to just run the offense and not cost us games.
To me, that is what Daniel Jones is. He's never going to be elite. He's probably never going to be anything but barely better than an average starting QB. But we don't need him to be....at least not now.
Then the talent that surrounds him should be enough to get the job done. Same as Eli if you ask me. He couldn’t do it on his own either, right? We’ve been here before.
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Post by thetruth on Jul 5, 2021 19:35:29 GMT -5
Setting records can go both ways, though. You can look at those TD's but they're only relevant when compared to Turnovers. You can put up points but if you're routinely giving the ball back to the other team it doesn't mean much. A considerable delta between the two (TDs vs TO's) is what you want and considering one over the other is.. silly, and quite short sighted. Need to think macro here and not "those two games where Jones had 4 TDs!!!!"In his rookie year he had 26 TDs, and 23 TO's. Nothing historical or really impressive about this at all. He did set rookie and franchise records. And did it in 11 starts... So it's actually both historic and impressive. Yeah so, in 11 starts he averaged: 2.36 TDs per game 2.10 Turnovers per game Also interesting to note there was another 7 fumbles he had that aren't included in these #'s, they were recovered by the Giants. historic stuff indeed.
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Post by thetruth on Jul 5, 2021 19:39:16 GMT -5
lmao Lets start with Kirk Cousins and work our way up as he proves it.
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Post by idkaname on Jul 5, 2021 19:46:38 GMT -5
You're projecting Jones entirely based on one stat from year 2. If Jones turns out to be anything like Smith, he won't have a career in NY. I'm basing my view on watching DJ in the pocket over the past 2 seasons.
He's completely unaware of what's going on around him. In my view, his reduction of turnovers last year came at the expense of productivity. He's now afraid to turn it over and I think you need to protect the ball and still make plays.
And I disagree with your point about Smith/Jones. If we win with Jones, he'll be fine here. he doesn't need to be great. We just need to win with him at QB.
idk man. I just don’t see the “oblivious in the pocket” mantra that keeps getting tossed around, like ESPN’s narratives do. Has he struggled in terms of progressions and holding onto the rock thus far ? Sure. But like you said he seemed to improve in that aspect year 2 and I believe it was more so due to good coaching. Judge most likely told him that things may be rough on offense and the defense is good enough to try again the next drive, thus more “safe” play from Jones. I really don’t believe this area will digress as he starts slinging it more because the talent we’ve added will create better matchups and quicker reads...making it easier to get comfortable. Just my 2 cents, it’s a hypothetical I know but it was our best chance at winning last year
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Post by idkaname on Jul 5, 2021 19:48:56 GMT -5
He did set rookie and franchise records. And did it in 11 starts... So it's actually both historic and impressive. Yeah so, in 11 starts he averaged: 2.36 TDs per game 2.10 Turnovers per game Also interesting to note there was another 7 fumbles he had that aren't included in these #'s, they were recovered by the Giants. historic stuff indeed. well to the point of progress, he improved on his rookie gaffs mightily year 2. Why is it hard to believe that trend won’t continue ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2021 19:55:16 GMT -5
lmao Lets start with Kirk Cousins and work our way up as he proves it. In time you'll see 🙌🏿
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Post by thetruth on Jul 5, 2021 20:03:42 GMT -5
Yeah so, in 11 starts he averaged: 2.36 TDs per game 2.10 Turnovers per game Also interesting to note there was another 7 fumbles he had that aren't included in these #'s, they were recovered by the Giants. historic stuff indeed. well to the point of progress, he improved on his rookie gaffs mightily year 2. Why is it hard to believe that trend won’t continue ? Progress? 2020: 0.85 TDs per game 1.14 Turnovers per game What progress? remember when I said the delta between TD's and TO's is what matters? he went from +3 TDs to -4 TO's. This is not the trend you want to see. When he progresses, ill happily point it out, just not going to sing blind praises for a guy thats proved nothing. Now this year he has no excuses. Fair, right?
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Post by McCherry on Jul 5, 2021 20:09:51 GMT -5
You're projecting Jones entirely based on one stat from year 2. If Jones turns out to be anything like Smith, he won't have a career in NY. I'm basing my view on watching DJ in the pocket over the past 2 seasons.
He's completely unaware of what's going on around him. In my view, his reduction of turnovers last year came at the expense of productivity. He's now afraid to turn it over and I think you need to protect the ball and still make plays.
And I disagree with your point about Smith/Jones. If we win with Jones, he'll be fine here. he doesn't need to be great. We just need to win with him at QB.
You just praised Brady for the same thing. Jones is doing what he’s supposed to do, stand in the pocket and focus downfield. If he were worried about footsteps, then we’d have a problem. You can teach a QB to step up in the pocket, you can't teach toughness. The real issue is the amount of pressure he’s under. Get better protection and these "pocket awareness" concerns disappear. I agree about winning with Jones, I just don't see any comparison in ability to Smith. Smith doesn't have anywhere near the arm Jones does.
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Post by ox1 on Jul 5, 2021 20:13:01 GMT -5
Yeah so, in 11 starts he averaged: 2.36 TDs per game 2.10 Turnovers per game Also interesting to note there was another 7 fumbles he had that aren't included in these #'s, they were recovered by the Giants. historic stuff indeed. well to the point of progress, he improved on his rookie gaffs mightily year 2. Why is it hard to believe that trend won’t continue ? Easy when you don't score points. The reason many say his pocket presence is one of the worst in the league, because we all watch it. The only hope I have at this point is he was doing 90% of it on purpose, as in he just didn't care about the rush at all. Even average pocket awareness is not getting a you SB though, your going to have that crucial moment in a SB, where you required superman pocket orchestration. Even an Eli shrug would be a good start.
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Post by idkaname on Jul 5, 2021 20:15:25 GMT -5
well to the point of progress, he improved on his rookie gaffs mightily year 2. Why is it hard to believe that trend won’t continue ? Progress? 2020: 0.85 TDs per game 1.14 Turnovers per game What progress? remember when I said the delta between TD's and TO's is what matters? he went from +3 TDs to -4 TO's. This is not the trend you want to see. When he progresses, ill happily point it out, just not going to sing blind praises for a guy thats proved nothing. Now this year he has no excuses. Fair, right? fair if you think stats for that aren’t individual but are applied individually matter. Otherwise I don’t understand pulling out numbers like that. What matters is he decreased his turnovers and won more games then he did the year before. Idc if he throws 2 TDs and has 14 int IF that means we’re winning more games. Plus that stat category is always inflated/deflated based on what teams do inside the 5 and or in garbage time The only thing I care about is the giants winning a SB
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Post by McCherry on Jul 5, 2021 20:20:35 GMT -5
Progress? 2020: 0.85 TDs per game 1.14 Turnovers per game What progress? remember when I said the delta between TD's and TO's is what matters? he went from +3 TDs to -4 TO's. This is not the trend you want to see. When he progresses, ill happily point it out, just not going to sing blind praises for a guy thats proved nothing. Now this year he has no excuses. Fair, right? fair if you think stats for that aren’t individual but are applied individually matter. Otherwise I don’t understand pulling out numbers like that. What matters is he decreased his turnovers and won more games then he did the year before. Idc if he throws 2 TDs and has 14 int IF that means we’re winning more games. Plus that stat category is always inflated/deflated based on what teams do inside the 5 and or in garbage time The only thing I care about is the giants winning a SB 5 turnovers in his last 7 games was substantial progress. And that was while playing injured. I don't see why he would regress in that department. And he’s always had a low INT rate.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 5, 2021 20:55:00 GMT -5
OK folks. Spending spree is over. The team looks solid. The defense is very strong both up front and in the secondary. Saquan will be back. The weapons are in place.
So why are we still picked by many to be in the bottom half of the league? Answer:.....Daniel Jones.
So my view is that we pretty much DO know what DJ is. To me his upside comparison is a guy like Alex Smith. That's not an insult. I like Alex Smith. Don't forget at the time of his horrible injury the Redskins were in 1st place. You could win with Alex Smith.......and I think we can win with Daniel Jones.
But let's face it, what we need from DJ is to be a solid game manager. He needs to make the right calls. Make the throws when they're there, and get some first downs with his feet....As I said....Alex Smith.
He needs lot of weapons to succeed and he has them. DJ will never be a premier NFL QB. That ship has sailed as far as I'm concerned. His pocket awareness probably won't get much better. But I DO think we can still win with him. He just needs to not stink....and I don't think he will.
I see 11 wins this year without crippling injuries. I think Jones can function with this offense. And that's all I expect. I expect him to just run the offense and not cost us games.
To me, that is what Daniel Jones is. He's never going to be elite. He's probably never going to be anything but barely better than an average starting QB. But we don't need him to be....at least not now.
Our self proclaimed guru has spoken...heed his proclamation: "To me, that is what Daniel Jones is. He's never going to be elite. He's probably never going to be anything but barely better than an average starting QB."
My greatest pleasure will be to see you eat those words. Luckily we won't be switching message boards like we did between the 2018 draft and the season so we can mark this thread.... I'm sure the OP was all about Darold or Rosen and still resents we didn't take a QB in 2018 and resents Jones because of this
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 5, 2021 21:00:47 GMT -5
- we dont know what he will be yet - we dont know if he "needs" a lot of top performing weapons. Then again all 99% of the QBs do - 11 wins and "only solid game manager"? Sorry...game managers dont win 11 games. I am more positive about Jones, his pocket awareness and the rest of his game. Thats just how I am . Why would I think he is just going to be some average NFL QB? If thats the case then cut him now because that will not be good enough Basically this Honestly I want it to go hard one way or another (not going nega..can't use that word ..)because a slightly better than meh kind of season from him where we make the playoffs despite him is the absolute worst case scenario because now .. Do we give him one more season? That is qb purgatory...... At least if he sucks we possibly have 2 high picks to either trade up of trade for Wilson when he goes through his annual whining session Obviously if he has a breakout season it's the best case scenario I honestly see a near 4K yard in the air,31 TDs,13 Ints,66 completion % this year
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jul 5, 2021 21:24:30 GMT -5
- we dont know what he will be yet - we dont know if he "needs" a lot of top performing weapons. Then again all 99% of the QBs do - 11 wins and "only solid game manager"? Sorry...game managers dont win 11 games. I am more positive about Jones, his pocket awareness and the rest of his game. Thats just how I am . Why would I think he is just going to be some average NFL QB? If thats the case then cut him now because that will not be good enough I believe Jones is like any other QB he needs help solid consistent production from his weapons less drops more YAC and at least average OL play. What compounded things more to me was training an OL during an NFL season isn't ideal, add in there WRs were having trouble getting separation and when they did they are in the top 5 in the league in dropped catchable balls this is a perfect storm for offensive struggles. Wins and losses are never all on the QB hopefully we will see this year with more dependable weaponry around him and an OL that will be together for a second year with stability in the coaching things will get better for Mr Jones.
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Post by vinnie on Jul 5, 2021 21:32:52 GMT -5
Setting records can go both ways, though. You can look at those TD's but they're only relevant when compared to Turnovers. You can put up points but if you're routinely giving the ball back to the other team it doesn't mean much. A considerable delta between the two (TDs vs TO's) is what you want and considering one over the other is.. silly, and quite short sighted. Need to think macro here and not "those two games where Jones had 4 TDs!!!!"In his rookie year he had 26 TDs, and 23 TO's. Nothing historical or really impressive about this at all. He did set rookie and franchise records. And did it in 11 starts... So it's actually both historic and impressive. He actually did it in 12 starts his rookie year which was also a record for a Giants rookie QB hence all the broken records you mention which make them that much less impressive IMO. I also wonder what the least amount of TD’s thrown for in a season is for a Giants QB who started 14 games or more. If 11 TD’s isn’t an all time low record I would think it has to be close.
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