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Post by trueblueatnyc on Jul 5, 2021 21:43:26 GMT -5
I completely agree that our WR's were lousy last year. My problem is watching him constantly no feeling the rush in the pocket. His pocket awareness has not improved since his rookie year.
He had the same WR's in 2019 with better results in the passing game.
We've seen big strides with young QB's in season 2 generally. We didn't see that last year. 12 TD passes is unacceptable.
But that aside, I'm not suggesting that Jones and Alex Smith have the exact same skill set. I am saying that the productivity of Alex Smith is essentially Jones' ceiling. I watched the guy have a huge game in the playoffs against N.O. when he was in SF. He made a lot of plays. he was also very mobile, like DJ is.
Ultimately, my point is that we don't need DJ to be a star. We need him to run the offense and make the plays when they are there. I think he's capable of that.
I agree with this. All he has to do is allow the players around him to emphasize what he can do. I think his pocket awareness will come around. It is his lack of progression through his reads. Not understanding who his number 1 target will be according to the Defensive formation. And My biggest problem I see with him. Picking his target and staring him down. I believe it is all fixable. There is a lot going on there that talent alone will not correct. I'm also very worried about Jones, especially after rewatching some games from last year. He has a similar problem as Eli in that he relies too much on his pre-snap read and makes up his mind where he's going with the ball. The problem is that, when the defense changes post-snap, he doesn't read it very well and still goes to what he read pre-snap. He doesn't adapt well when things go "off-script", and his pocket awareness is a part of that too, as the sliding and moving in the pocket requires a bit of ad-libbing. I also think the switch from Shurmers' offense to Garrett's really hurt him as well. Shurmer's scheme was very QB friendly and he understood that most QB's aren't able to quickly go through 3 or 4 reads (and often wont have the time to), and he would often build in schemes that would have man beaters on one side, and zone beaters on the other. Then the read becomes a little easier. If it's man, look left, if it's zone, look right. If the read is wrong, check it down. Much simpler progression. He is going to need to make some big strides this year. I never saw him as having a Mahomes or Rodgers type of ceiling. Thought maybe he can be like a Matt Stafford. Ideally, this year he'll be an efficient passer like Tannehill has become, but with more rushing ability.
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 5, 2021 21:48:47 GMT -5
You folks think I'm trashing Jones. It's simply not true. I am just accepting his limitations and suggesting that we can still win with him.
Not every young QB can be a HOF'r. I'm also open to the possibility that he can still break through this year. But to me, winning is more important.
We can win with Daniel Jones. He just needs more than some other QB's around him to get that done.
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Post by McCherry on Jul 5, 2021 21:51:08 GMT -5
Our self proclaimed guru has spoken...heed his proclamation: "To me, that is what Daniel Jones is. He's never going to be elite. He's probably never going to be anything but barely better than an average starting QB."
My greatest pleasure will be to see you eat those words. Luckily we won't be switching message boards like we did between the 2018 draft and the season so we can mark this thread.... I'm sure the OP was all about Darold or Rosen and still resents we didn't take a QB in 2018 and resents Jones because of this I don't even agree with the premise that Jones is the main reason the league is so pessimistic about us. Hell, Judge was just ranked almost dead last among sports writers around the league. Those opinions outside NY have an agenda and should never be taken seriously.
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Post by Jomo on Jul 5, 2021 21:52:41 GMT -5
You folks think I'm trashing Jones. It's simply not true. I am just accepting his limitations and suggesting that we can still win with him. Not every young QB can be a HOF'r. I'm also open to the possibility that he can still break through this year. But to me, winning is more important. We can win with Daniel Jones. He just needs more than some other QB's around him to get that done. You just like the attention.
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 5, 2021 22:10:44 GMT -5
Luckily we won't be switching message boards like we did between the 2018 draft and the season so we can mark this thread.... I'm sure the OP was all about Darold or Rosen and still resents we didn't take a QB in 2018 and resents Jones because of this I don't even agree with the premise that Jones is the main reason the league is so pessimistic about us. Hell, Judge was just ranked almost dead last among sports writers around the league. Those opinions outside NY have an agenda and should never be taken seriously. Well I can't get into the minds of these talking heads. I'm making an assumption because the rest of our team seems pretty strong....at least to me.
But who knows what their views are completely based on. Maybe it's the fact that we've been one of, if not the worst team in football over the last 10 seasons.
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Jul 5, 2021 22:30:09 GMT -5
I don't even agree with the premise that Jones is the main reason the league is so pessimistic about us. Hell, Judge was just ranked almost dead last among sports writers around the league. Those opinions outside NY have an agenda and should never be taken seriously. Well I can't get into the minds of these talking heads. I'm making an assumption because the rest of our team seems pretty strong....at least to me.
But who knows what their views are completely based on. Maybe it's the fact that we've been one of, if not the worst team in football over the last 10 seasons.
In general you don't see many, if any, analysts predict a team to go from bottom of a division to top of a division, even though it happens fairly frequently. I agree that many analysts don't see Jones as being a reason why the team would progress. But I also think they see Dak coming back as likely meaning the Cowboys make a big return, and they see the Redskins won the division despite their QB issues and think they can only be better with Fitz stepping in. Most projections I see have the Eagles at the bottom of the division, not the Giants.
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 5, 2021 22:37:01 GMT -5
Well I can't get into the minds of these talking heads. I'm making an assumption because the rest of our team seems pretty strong....at least to me.
But who knows what their views are completely based on. Maybe it's the fact that we've been one of, if not the worst team in football over the last 10 seasons.
In general you don't see many, if any, analysts predict a team to go from bottom of a division to top of a division, even though it happens fairly frequently. I agree that many analysts don't see Jones as being a reason why the team would progress. But I also think they see Dak coming back as likely meaning the Cowboys make a big return, and they see the Redskins won the division despite their QB issues and think they can only be better with Fitz stepping in. Most projections I see have the Eagles at the bottom of the division, not the Giants. Well I think we'll win 11 games......and no one can confuse me with a born optimist regarding my team.
I don't get why they think we'll be as bad as last year with all the improvements we've made.
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Post by Nite on Jul 5, 2021 23:38:56 GMT -5
I don't see 11 wins, sorry. The problem as I see it is Getty. I simply don't trust the guy. The OL was not fixed, we didn't draft any nor did we pick up anyone (significant) in FA. Most of his draft choices are questionable. Perhaps some sleepers here and there but you need more than sleepers to field a contenting team..Jones is...who knows? Good 1st year and fell off a cliff in the 2nd..just can't have the TOs, its a team killer..
Well the D is better, but you have to score points to win and our O is the biggest question mark. We picked up a couple of shiny objects in FA but if Jones is running for his life or does his tackling dummy imitation, it renders those shiny objects moot.
On the bright(er) side I think we will be better this year. Like two games IMO. Its ok but not good enough
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Post by FundamentallySoundJones on Jul 6, 2021 0:29:10 GMT -5
Imo its more about the oline being a question mark and not upgraded this off season and a 2nd year HC with no winning record (yet)
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Post by TEM on Jul 6, 2021 6:01:59 GMT -5
I agree with this. All he has to do is allow the players around him to emphasize what he can do. I think his pocket awareness will come around. It is his lack of progression through his reads. Not understanding who his number 1 target will be according to the Defensive formation. And My biggest problem I see with him. Picking his target and staring him down. I believe it is all fixable. There is a lot going on there that talent alone will not correct. I'm also very worried about Jones, especially after rewatching some games from last year. He has a similar problem as Eli in that he relies too much on his pre-snap read and makes up his mind where he's going with the ball. The problem is that, when the defense changes post-snap, he doesn't read it very well and still goes to what he read pre-snap. He doesn't adapt well when things go "off-script", and his pocket awareness is a part of that too, as the sliding and moving in the pocket requires a bit of ad-libbing. I also think the switch from Shurmers' offense to Garrett's really hurt him as well. Shurmer's scheme was very QB friendly and he understood that most QB's aren't able to quickly go through 3 or 4 reads (and often wont have the time to), and he would often build in schemes that would have man beaters on one side, and zone beaters on the other. Then the read becomes a little easier. If it's man, look left, if it's zone, look right. If the read is wrong, check it down. Much simpler progression. He is going to need to make some big strides this year. I never saw him as having a Mahomes or Rodgers type of ceiling. Thought maybe he can be like a Matt Stafford. Ideally, this year he'll be an efficient passer like Tannehill has become, but with more rushing ability. This is where you and I differ. I have seen him numerous times not read the defense right . Throw to the doubled guy and leave the receiver open in the zone Holding his D$$$. He has 2 recievers lined up on the left side. A Sot Corner Outside Corner and a Safety a few yards behind them . He only has one choice on this play. Throw it to the receiver the Safety is not shadowing. We have all seen him make the wrong throw in this situation. If he reads the Defense correct . He should know he is going to have a one on one either on the slant or the post. Watch this play against AZ make the video full screen fivethirtyeight.com/features/daniel-jones-hasnt-figured-out-zone-coverage-yet/Keep your eyes on the outside receiver ignore the rest of the play . Then re-watch and just concentrate on the QB . It appears he staring down his target ( a misread) from the moment he receives the snap . He was still doing this stuff in week 14. As I believe it is correctable. It needs to be done quickly.
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Post by Delicreep on Jul 6, 2021 6:13:35 GMT -5
You folks think I'm trashing Jones. It's simply not true. I am just accepting his limitations and suggesting that we can still win with him. Not every young QB can be a HOF'r. I'm also open to the possibility that he can still break through this year. But to me, winning is more important. We can win with Daniel Jones. He just needs more than some other QB's around him to get that done. I don’t know if Jones had more flashes of greatness that Smith did in his first few years, but it’s a great question. The notion that he needs “more around him” is key - no QB, young or old, needs nothing, but does Jones have that ability to get that go ahead TD when we need it, given what he has on the field? That’s what it comes down to for me, and I think we get an answer this year.
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wtfjjk
Special Teams
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Post by wtfjjk on Jul 6, 2021 8:07:59 GMT -5
We are a run first team now with plenty of pass options. We hung our hat on that same concept for all of our superbowls,,, Ground and pound with a passing option....Good defense and great run game Joe Morris OJ Anderson BJ and Bradshaw.... Dave is betting that old school smash mouth football can beat new concepts.....Same reason TC went to Jacksonville and drafted Leonard Fournette. This has to be the way. We need to feature Saquon more than Daniel Jones and we'll be better off.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 6, 2021 8:11:24 GMT -5
He did set rookie and franchise records. And did it in 11 starts... So it's actually both historic and impressive. He actually did it in 12 starts his rookie year which was also a record for a Giants rookie QB hence all the broken records you mention which make them that much less impressive IMO. I also wonder what the least amount of TD’s thrown for in a season is for a Giants QB who started 14 games or more. If 11 TD’s isn’t an all time low record I would think it has to be close. Do you not remember the dark ages of the 70s?
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 6, 2021 8:23:12 GMT -5
We are a run first team now with plenty of pass options. We hung our hat on that same concept for all of our superbowls,,, Ground and pound with a passing option....Good defense and great run game Joe Morris OJ Anderson BJ and Bradshaw.... Dave is betting that old school smash mouth football can beat new concepts.....Same reason TC went to Jacksonville and drafted Leonard Fournette. No we are not We are a "whatever the defense gives us " first offense We didn't aquire all these weapons to he a fraidy cat goober offense where they run in into a brick wall and limit his throws to 20 or less This just reinforces the fact we have a segment or this fan base 5hat refuses to believe that the game has changed and is a throwing league,and they want 6his team to go back to goober ball,and they will keep.saying silly things like this in hopes that if they wish it enough that it will happen There will be some games where they run it all day and at will because teams have been frightened by our weapons.to tbe point where Jonea.sews a.ton of green all game in front of him and will check into running plays all day and Barkley feasts... Tbis only happesm of we establish a high powered air attack,which is what super bowl winning teams and modern offenses do in this era I have never seen a fan base that is so allergic to modern offense and the passing game Oh 2011 was powered by Eli and the passing game..we had the 32nd ranked running game and Eli carried that offense through the playoffs and to a super bowl (still holds the record for most yards in a playoff year that run )so that argument goes out the window about all our Super Bowl teams were run first teams
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 6, 2021 8:24:20 GMT -5
You folks think I'm trashing Jones. It's simply not true. I am just accepting his limitations and suggesting that we can still win with him. Not every young QB can be a HOF'r. I'm also open to the possibility that he can still break through this year. But to me, winning is more important. We can win with Daniel Jones. He just needs more than some other QB's around him to get that done. .................and if his name was Sam Darnold? Both Jones and Darnold's careers seem on similar arcs.
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Post by jaymas on Jul 6, 2021 8:26:15 GMT -5
I think his ceiling is much higher than Alex Smith's. Not guaranteeing he hits it - but I think it's a lot higher.
His first and second year were so different, so just based on that it'd be difficult to agree with the fact that we know what he's got/he is.
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 6, 2021 8:30:34 GMT -5
We are a run first team now with plenty of pass options. We hung our hat on that same concept for all of our superbowls,,, Ground and pound with a passing option....Good defense and great run game Joe Morris OJ Anderson BJ and Bradshaw.... Dave is betting that old school smash mouth football can beat new concepts.....Same reason TC went to Jacksonville and drafted Leonard Fournette. No we are not We are a "whatever the defense gives us " first offense We didn't aquire all these weapons to he a fraidy cat goober offense where they run in into a brick wall and limit his throws to 20 or less This just reinforces the fact we have a segment or this fan base 5hat refuses to believe that the game has changed and is a throwing league,and they want 6his team to go back to goober ball,and they will keep.saying silly things like this in hopes that if they wish it enough that it will happen There will be some games where they run it all day and at will because teams have been frightened by our weapons.to tbe point where Jonea.sews a.ton of green all game in front of him and will check into running plays all day and Barkley feasts... Tbis only happesm of we establish a high powered air attack,which is what super bowl winning teams and modern offenses do in this era I have never seen a fan base that is so allergic to modern offense and the passing game Oh 2011 was powered by Eli and the passing game..we had the 32nd ranked running game and Eli carried that offense through the playoffs and to a super bowl (still holds the record for most yards in a playoff year that run )so that argument goes out the window about all our Super Bowl teams were run first teams We did run it well in the playoffs though. The run game was lousy during the season, but much better in the post season.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 6, 2021 8:33:51 GMT -5
No we are not We are a "whatever the defense gives us " first offense We didn't aquire all these weapons to he a fraidy cat goober offense where they run in into a brick wall and limit his throws to 20 or less This just reinforces the fact we have a segment or this fan base 5hat refuses to believe that the game has changed and is a throwing league,and they want 6his team to go back to goober ball,and they will keep.saying silly things like this in hopes that if they wish it enough that it will happen There will be some games where they run it all day and at will because teams have been frightened by our weapons.to tbe point where Jonea.sews a.ton of green all game in front of him and will check into running plays all day and Barkley feasts... Tbis only happesm of we establish a high powered air attack,which is what super bowl winning teams and modern offenses do in this era I have never seen a fan base that is so allergic to modern offense and the passing game Oh 2011 was powered by Eli and the passing game..we had the 32nd ranked running game and Eli carried that offense through the playoffs and to a super bowl (still holds the record for most yards in a playoff year that run )so that argument goes out the window about all our Super Bowl teams were run first teams We did run it well in the playoffs though. The run game was lousy during the season, but much better in the post season. We still weren't a run first team though By the time the playoffs rolled around we were seeing 6 man boxes because teams feared our weapons that much and Eli rightfully checked into runs more often because the o line actually started to block a little better by then (remember we had a new center we basically signed the first day of Training camp that year,not to mention the rest of the line 2as basically on fumes at that point of the year
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 6, 2021 8:40:52 GMT -5
We did run it well in the playoffs though. The run game was lousy during the season, but much better in the post season. We still weren't a run first team though By the time the playoffs rolled around we were seeing 6 man boxes because teams feared our weapons that much and Eli rightfully checked into runs more often because the o line actually started to block a little better by then (remember we had a new center we basically signed the first day of Training camp that year,not to mention the rest of the line 2as basically on fumes at that point of the year We were definitely a passing team because we had Nicks and Cruz at the very top of their games. Add Manningham and we probably had the best group of WR's in our history.
There is no doubt that Eli played great in 2011. He moved better in the pocket than I had or ever have seen since. But we weren't going anywhere in the playoffs without a better run game and we got it when we needed it.
But let's face it, that entire season turned on the 99 yard TD against the Jets. We were a .500 team looking to go nowhere. After that we were a different team. Everybody played better after that.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 6, 2021 8:42:57 GMT -5
We still weren't a run first team though By the time the playoffs rolled around we were seeing 6 man boxes because teams feared our weapons that much and Eli rightfully checked into runs more often because the o line actually started to block a little better by then (remember we had a new center we basically signed the first day of Training camp that year,not to mention the rest of the line 2as basically on fumes at that point of the year We were definitely a passing team because we had Nicks and Cruz at the very top of their games. Add Manningham and we probably had the best group of WR's in our history.
There is no doubt that Eli played great in 2011. He moved better in the pocket than I had or ever have seen since. But we weren't going anywhere in the playoffs without a better run game and we got it when we needed it.
But let's face it, that entire season turned on the 99 yard TD against the Jets. We were a .500 team looking to go nowhere. After that we were a different team. E
Everybody played better after that.
Because that is around the time tbe defense decided it wanted to contribute and participate in the 2011 season I've been consistent in saying that was a 5-11 team without Eli and those recievers
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 6, 2021 8:44:34 GMT -5
We were definitely a passing team because we had Nicks and Cruz at the very top of their games. Add Manningham and we probably had the best group of WR's in our history.
There is no doubt that Eli played great in 2011. He moved better in the pocket than I had or ever have seen since. But we weren't going anywhere in the playoffs without a better run game and we got it when we needed it.
But let's face it, that entire season turned on the 99 yard TD against the Jets. We were a .500 team looking to go nowhere. After that we were a different team. E
Everybody played better after that.
Because that is around the time tbe defense decided it wanted to contribute and participate in the 2011 season It was a crazy year. The tale of two different teams. The mediocre team before the play and the championship team after.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 6, 2021 8:45:34 GMT -5
Because that is around the time tbe defense decided it wanted to contribute and participate in the 2011 season It was a crazy year. The tale of two different teams. The mediocre team before the play and the championship team after. That was a 5-11 team without Eli and those recievers Even the O line was fading badly
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Post by Jomo on Jul 6, 2021 8:50:50 GMT -5
.................and if his name was Sam Darnold? Both Jones and Darnold's careers seem on similar arcs. I don't agree with that based solely on timing. Darnold had 3 years under his belt, had shown very little and his team gave up on him. Jones only has 2 years in the NFL, hasn't shown very much either but his team hasn't moved him out. That is why year 3 is fish or cut bait year for DJ. I remain hopeful but wouldn't bet the ranch or even the garage that he blossoms this year. If you were evaluating both QBs after year 2, I'd say you were on the money.....maybe you were looking at it that way?
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Post by Roswell on Jul 6, 2021 8:51:33 GMT -5
Mahomes and Haskins aside ( extreme examples of good and bad), it takes 3 years to really have an idea of what a QB’s floor and ceiling are. Jones has 2 under his belt.
Now that he has playbook stability, some guys who can get open, his star RB back (hopefully) and expectedly an even better defense to give him better field position, we will see.
He’s tough enough, a hard worker, and a real good athlete. This coming year is the year we will know how his career will unfold.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2021 8:54:10 GMT -5
We still weren't a run first team though By the time the playoffs rolled around we were seeing 6 man boxes because teams feared our weapons that much and Eli rightfully checked into runs more often because the o line actually started to block a little better by then (remember we had a new center we basically signed the first day of Training camp that year,not to mention the rest of the line 2as basically on fumes at that point of the year We were definitely a passing team because we had Nicks and Cruz at the very top of their games. Add Manningham and we probably had the best group of WR's in our history.
There is no doubt that Eli played great in 2011. He moved better in the pocket than I had or ever have seen since. But we weren't going anywhere in the playoffs without a better run game and we got it when we needed it.
But let's face it, that entire season turned on the 99 yard TD against the Jets. We were a .500 team looking to go nowhere. After that we were a different team. Everybody played better after that.
That play was insane and thankfully the Jets didn't play it correctly.. They could've been punting out the zone for the Jets to add to their lead.. I thought they were done when it was 3rd and 10 on the one!
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Post by snyder55 on Jul 6, 2021 9:06:01 GMT -5
I guess Daniel Jones is what he is until he proves he isn't, if you can figure that out...
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Post by ocgiant on Jul 6, 2021 9:42:44 GMT -5
DJ’s success is the OL’s ability to make holes for the running game, longer routes to develop & protect DJ from getting hurt
DJ will still need have a make or break season no excuses going forward
I believe he has done everything he can do to prepare himself this year not sure there is much else to debate or draw comparisons to
Time is now for DJ to show who he is as the QB of the Giants
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 6, 2021 9:49:36 GMT -5
Both Jones and Darnold's careers seem on similar arcs. I don't agree with that based solely on timing. Darnold had 3 years under his belt, had shown very little and his team gave up on him. Jones only has 2 years in the NFL, hasn't shown very much either but his team hasn't moved him out. That is why year 3 is fish or cut bait year for DJ. I remain hopeful but wouldn't bet the ranch or even the garage that he blossoms this year. If you were evaluating both QBs after year 2, I'd say you were on the money.....maybe you were looking at it that way? Yes I was.
Let's look at it....Jones is essentially where Darnold was starting last season.
After year two Darnold had 6000 yards passing, 36 TD's, 28 picks and an 11-15 record.
Jones has 6000 yards, 35 TD's, 22 picks and an 8-18 record. And Jones has had a crap load more fumbles.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2021 9:53:32 GMT -5
I don't agree with that based solely on timing. Darnold had 3 years under his belt, had shown very little and his team gave up on him. Jones only has 2 years in the NFL, hasn't shown very much either but his team hasn't moved him out. That is why year 3 is fish or cut bait year for DJ. I remain hopeful but wouldn't bet the ranch or even the garage that he blossoms this year. If you were evaluating both QBs after year 2, I'd say you were on the money.....maybe you were looking at it that way? Well let's put it this way....Jones is essentially where Darnold was starting last season. Jones is now on the Jets... When did that happen??
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Post by Martin on Jul 6, 2021 10:27:12 GMT -5
You folks think I'm trashing Jones. It's simply not true. I am just accepting his limitations and suggesting that we can still win with him. Not every young QB can be a HOF'r. I'm also open to the possibility that he can still break through this year. But to me, winning is more important. We can win with Daniel Jones. He just needs more than some other QB's around him to get that done. Your take on him is fine and I don't see him as a potential HOF'r either. What will be the tell tale for him is what he does with the football when the pocket collapses? Does he turn the ball over or does he protect the ball etc... I am not one of those who see QB's develop the radar in the pocket. They have that instinct or they don't but as long as he protects the ball the Giants have weapons and a defense that can win games. So I agree with you 100%.
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