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Post by Rangers13 on Oct 18, 2021 11:55:50 GMT -5
Keep asking for the coaches head if it makes you feel better. If somebody feels the coach is a scapegoat, it is what it is. I don’t blame the coach at all. I haven't asked for the coach's head. I simply posed a question that no one (including you) has been able to answer about what Judge has done well from a coaching perspective to date. I like Judge's philosophies and think that he is a decent well-intentioned guy. But if I'm being honest, I haven't seen much more than that to date to give me the confidence that he is the right guy moving forward. I don't know that he isn't the right guy either, but I will tell you that I felt much better about the possibility of him being the right guy last season than I do this season. - team hasn’t quit - lockeroom is not a mess - the QB showed signs of getting better despite this rotation of wide receivers and offensive linemen Imo, only way fans can question Judge is by ignoring the roster. You’re literally demanding wins from an awful roster.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Oct 18, 2021 11:59:26 GMT -5
And to be fair, Ive only seen about 2 or 3 posters saying we should fire Judge at this point. And they really arent taken seriously much.
IMO, DG had more than enough chances. He is running this team backwards, and has been. Realistically, I want him fired after this season and replaced with someone outside the organization.
Judge should at minimal get 3 years here, which means 1 more after this year. He seems like a likeable guy, young and fiery, but not sure he can get his message across yet. He certainly hasn't yet. Id like to really know if he wants a new QB or not to be honest. Jones was Shurmers QB.
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Post by McCherry on Oct 18, 2021 12:06:40 GMT -5
And to be fair, Ive only seen about 2 or 3 posters saying we should fire Judge at this point. And they really arent taken seriously much. IMO, DG had more than enough chances. He is running this team backwards, and has been. Realistically, I want him fired after this season and replaced with someone outside the organization. Judge should at minimal get 3 years here, which means 1 more after this year. He seems like a likeable guy, young and fiery, but not sure he can get his message across yet. He certainly hasn't yet. Id like to really know if he wants a new QB or not to be honest. Jones was Shurmers QB. There is way too much football left to say that. At this rate, Judge will certainly not be back. Judge has stood behind Jones since day 1. If he did not want him, he wouldn't be the QB. There are no mysteries there. Jones clearly isn't the problem here anyway.
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Post by Sarcasman on Oct 18, 2021 12:09:08 GMT -5
You are making assumptions about what I believe. It doesn't give you pause that the only good thing that you can point out about Judge's tenure to date is that as far as we know, he hasn't lost the locker room (yet)? The team quit in the second half. That's not my emotional reaction, that's a fact being reported by analysts today who are confirming that the defense was jogging during Kupp's last big run down the sidelines. I haven't heard one analyst today say the team doesn't have the players to win. They're all saying Judge is doing a bad job and his message isn't being heard. If that's true, we'll see proof soon enough. When people say something is being reported by analysts, I hear some guy on the bus thinks........
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Post by TCHOF on Oct 18, 2021 12:11:54 GMT -5
I haven't asked for the coach's head. I simply posed a question that no one (including you) has been able to answer about what Judge has done well from a coaching perspective to date. I like Judge's philosophies and think that he is a decent well-intentioned guy. But if I'm being honest, I haven't seen much more than that to date to give me the confidence that he is the right guy moving forward. I don't know that he isn't the right guy either, but I will tell you that I felt much better about the possibility of him being the right guy last season than I do this season. - team hasn’t quit - lockeroom is not a mess - the QB showed signs of getting better despite this rotation of wide receivers and offensive linemen Imo, only way fans can question Judge is by ignoring the roster. You’re literally demanding wins from an awful roster. I saw a team yesterday that quit ... not sure what you saw. Not sure how you know what is going on in the locker room. The QB regressed badly last season, when clearly one of the major goals of Judge's first season was to develop the young QB. This year our QB has 4 passing TD's through 6 games. We couldn't have won the WFT and Atlanta games with this roster?
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Post by Sarcasman on Oct 18, 2021 12:12:33 GMT -5
And to be fair, Ive only seen about 2 or 3 posters saying we should fire Judge at this point. And they really arent taken seriously much. IMO, DG had more than enough chances. He is running this team backwards, and has been. Realistically, I want him fired after this season and replaced with someone outside the organization. Judge should at minimal get 3 years here, which means 1 more after this year. He seems like a likeable guy, young and fiery, but not sure he can get his message across yet. He certainly hasn't yet. Id like to really know if he wants a new QB or not to be honest. Jones was Shurmers QB. There is way too much football left to say that. At this rate, Judge will certainly not be back. Judge has stood behind Jones since day 1. If he did not want him, he wouldn't be the QB. There are no mysteries there. Jones clearly isn't the problem here anyway. I doubt Mara wants to eat 2022, 2023 and 2024. I think he is going to give Judge a chance under a new GM which is fine by me.
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Post by Rangers13 on Oct 18, 2021 12:15:14 GMT -5
should he have said we’re going to play slow and soft? - If your OL can’t run block they can’t run block - if your receivers can’t stay on the field they can’t catch - if you have zero pass rushers how do you create a pass rush? You guys have unrealistically expectations as even Vegas had the healthy version of the team at 7 wins. You are bouncing all over the place. I don't care about who is not doing what for the team. My comment, which you first responded to, of comparing DG and Judge is factual. I showed you the proof. DG and JJ both are talking a tough game, neither backing it up so far. Does this team seem fundamentally sound to you? Not losing us games? Of course this team wasn't going to do much this year. I picked them 6-7 wins at best, which obviously seems like an overestimate as of now. When Coughlin was a militant type coach here, he had a resume to back him up. He won 11 games in year 2. He didn't have a losing season here for 8 straight years, 2005 - 2012. Judge is trying to build a resume, but its failing. I do blame DG and have been consistent there, but Judge isnt making me feel all warm and comfy with his abilities yet. It looks over his head at times. I said from the beginning with his style, that if he doesn't win early, its not going to work out for him, fair or unfair. I still think he should be here in 2022 regardless how the season turns out. He had zero experience as a HC on any level. Not even high school. The Giants signed up for it knowing this. 3-4 years minimal. Growing pains. Ect. what would you like Judge to say? Fundamentally sound? No, and i think the roster is littered with special teams and borderline roster players in the role of starters.
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Post by cdngfan on Oct 18, 2021 12:16:38 GMT -5
I might get destroyed for saying this, but I think he should get at least 2 more years, unless it becomes a MacAdoo scenario where the locker room is completely lost. If we keep changing head coaches every 2 years, we'll be like the Browns pre-Stefanski. I’m with you. It’s not a vote if confidence in Judge, it’s like buying a lottery ticket to get rich. Sure it can work, but it’s not likely. Gettleman will get fired first and whomever the new GM is should make the call. Don’t know if anyone noticed, but on the fake punt yesterday judge was yelling “watch the fake! Watch the fake!” Other than the penalty they still pulled it off. Judge may be the problem, but he’s FAR from the biggest problem. Fire him if you want, just don’t have unrealistic expectations on what that will change. Just like last time. And the time before that. I see a pattern. Do you?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2021 12:18:01 GMT -5
Seriously, there's just not an answer for this shit show right now. then when you lose like they have for so long, decent FA's don't even want to become part of it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2021 12:20:11 GMT -5
another way to look at this, lets say you take this team, all of it, exactly what it is, this roster, with gettleman and all, and you just replace judge with someone else. whats our record now. is there a difference.
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Post by Rangers13 on Oct 18, 2021 12:20:38 GMT -5
- team hasn’t quit - lockeroom is not a mess - the QB showed signs of getting better despite this rotation of wide receivers and offensive linemen Imo, only way fans can question Judge is by ignoring the roster. You’re literally demanding wins from an awful roster. I saw a team yesterday that quit ... not sure what you saw. Not sure how you know what is going on in the locker room. The QB regressed badly last season, when clearly one of the major goals of Judge's first season was to develop the young QB. We couldn't have won the WFT and Atlanta games with this roster? i saw the replay thank goodness b/c my kid had a game. I saw a playoff team overwhelm a mediocre roster - Rams QB is better - HBs might be equal or in favor of the Rams w/o Barkley - Rams Wide receivers are better - Rams OL and DL are better - Linebackers are best case even - DBs are closer to even - the lockerroom, i’ve yet to hear what i heard from the Mac days. Remember the meltdown from fans when that coach lost all his weapons and the OL stunk? - maybe the QB isn’t that good or didn’t have any weapons. Now the weapons were added and hurt. - So you could have won/lost Atlanta. Was it a given that should be a win for the 17-38 Gettleman roster? No
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Post by cdngfan on Oct 18, 2021 12:28:18 GMT -5
another way to look at this, lets say you take this team, all of it, exactly what it is, this roster, with gettleman and all, and you just replace judge with someone else. whats our record now. is there a difference. Brilliantly said. Nope. When your coach yells “watch for the fake”, and your players don’t that’s not “just” a coaching problem. Changing who yells “watch the fake” won’t help much.
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Post by bigbluejeep8888 on Oct 18, 2021 12:30:04 GMT -5
Keep asking for the coaches head if it makes you feel better. If somebody feels the coach is a scapegoat, it is what it is. I don’t blame the coach at all. I haven't asked for the coach's head. I simply posed a question that no one (including you) has been able to answer about what Judge has done well from a coaching perspective to date. I like Judge's philosophies and think that he is a decent well-intentioned guy. But if I'm being honest, I haven't seen much more than that to date to give me the confidence that he is the right guy moving forward. I don't know that he isn't the right guy either, but I will tell you that I felt much better about the possibility of him being the right guy last season than I do this season. The question I ask, if judge got fired today or at the end of the year what would be his new title on a different team? Maybe a special teams coordinator? I know he was a wr coach with the pats as well. Maybe an oline coach?
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Post by McCherry on Oct 18, 2021 12:30:53 GMT -5
There is way too much football left to say that. At this rate, Judge will certainly not be back. Judge has stood behind Jones since day 1. If he did not want him, he wouldn't be the QB. There are no mysteries there. Jones clearly isn't the problem here anyway. I doubt Mara wants to eat 2022, 2023 and 2024. I think he is going to give Judge a chance under a new GM which is fine by me. Not if they don't win games. There is no precedent of a second year coach being retained after losing more games in year 2.
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Post by Martin on Oct 18, 2021 12:36:07 GMT -5
You can dig up Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry or any coach you can think of and the results are roughly the same. Want a different GM? Sure take your pick but don't expect wins because this Giants system right now doesn't work. It needs to be overhauled from the top down. Mara needs to hire a football man and then go golfing. Every now and then check in to see how ticket sales and TV revenue is going. Make sure the hot dogs are good and the beer is cold.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Oct 18, 2021 12:40:18 GMT -5
You are bouncing all over the place. I don't care about who is not doing what for the team. My comment, which you first responded to, of comparing DG and Judge is factual. I showed you the proof. DG and JJ both are talking a tough game, neither backing it up so far. Does this team seem fundamentally sound to you? Not losing us games? Of course this team wasn't going to do much this year. I picked them 6-7 wins at best, which obviously seems like an overestimate as of now. When Coughlin was a militant type coach here, he had a resume to back him up. He won 11 games in year 2. He didn't have a losing season here for 8 straight years, 2005 - 2012. Judge is trying to build a resume, but its failing. I do blame DG and have been consistent there, but Judge isnt making me feel all warm and comfy with his abilities yet. It looks over his head at times. I said from the beginning with his style, that if he doesn't win early, its not going to work out for him, fair or unfair. I still think he should be here in 2022 regardless how the season turns out. He had zero experience as a HC on any level. Not even high school. The Giants signed up for it knowing this. 3-4 years minimal. Growing pains. Ect. what would you like Judge to say? Fundamentally sound? No, and i think the roster is littered with special teams and borderline roster players in the role of starters. Its not about what he says, its about what he does. We had a play design last year on a 4th and goal that was a fake FG ending up with a pass attempt from Riley Dixon to Nick Gates. It failed of course, because, it was a fake FG pass from Riley Dixon to Nick Gates. That's on the HC. Not to mention the many times his clock management has been terrible. There is plenty to look directly at the HC and scratch your head. And Id still give him 1 more year because, he is that raw and its what should have been expected. They just got smoked by the Rams in MetLife. Rams put their backup QB in it was so easy. Again, the injury excuse can be valid at times, but then you look at teams like the Ravens who are decimated and at 5-1, and say, we have to be better than 1-5 anyway.
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Post by TCHOF on Oct 18, 2021 12:41:26 GMT -5
I doubt Mara wants to eat 2022, 2023 and 2024. I think he is going to give Judge a chance under a new GM which is fine by me. Not if they don't win games. There is no precedent of a second year coach being retained after losing more games in year 2. Did Shurmur get a 5 year deal? If so, that would mean that if Judge gets fired, Mara will be paying Shurmur, Judge and a new HC next year. The price of ineptitude I guess.
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Post by Rangers13 on Oct 18, 2021 12:52:04 GMT -5
what would you like Judge to say? Fundamentally sound? No, and i think the roster is littered with special teams and borderline roster players in the role of starters. Its not about what he says, its about what he does. We had a play design last year on a 4th and goal that was a fake FG ending up with a pass attempt from Riley Dixon to Nick Gates. It failed of course, because, it was a fake FG pass from Riley Dixon to Nick Gates. That's on the HC. Not to mention the many times his clock management has been terrible. There is plenty to look directly at the HC and scratch your head. And Id still give him 1 more year because, he is that raw and its what should have been expected. They just got smoked by the Rams in MetLife. Rams put their backup QB in it was so easy. Again, the injury excuse can be valid at times, but then you look at teams like the Ravens who are decimated and at 5-1, and say, we have to be better than 1-5 anyway. you just cherry picked a fake FG from last season? Com’on, I get it, you want him gone. If the Giants had Harbaugh i’m sure they would 5-1. Our kicker could hit 66 yard field goals. Is that what you want to hear? No excuses, forget the roster. Win Here is a newsflash - the team wasn’t going to win much at full strength. They likely won’t win at a lesser strength either. The Ram game was going to be ugly which is why the spread was -9.5. The Chiefs game is probably not going to be pretty. Bucs might get ugly. Dallas isn’t looking too promising. Return Barkley and receivers they might play better. If the LT is out and OL can’t run block it’s probably a safe bet the opponent is going to flood the passing lanes. Think John Harbaugh is winning with this roster? No, the Ravens beat up still have enough solid pieces in place.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Oct 18, 2021 12:53:28 GMT -5
Bill Belichick’s disappointing coaching tree Add Miami Dolphins coach Brian Flores and New York Giants coach Joe Judge to the expanding list of former Bill Belichick disciples who have or are failing as head coaches. That list previously included Matt Patricia, Eric Mangini, Josh McDaniels, and even Romeo Crennel — all fired after getting their chance to lead a team. Judge is 7-15 in his second season, including 1-5 this season. Flores is 16-22 without a playoff appearance in his third season, including 1-5 this season. So, why? What’s the common problem? This: All these coaches learned and generally followed the Belichick way in the manner they handled players, set organizational priorities, and dealt with people both inside and outside their organization. All of them ruled with an iron fist — as in, their way or the highway. All refused to stray from principles they learned under Belichick, even when those were failing. There was, at times, a feeling of paranoia, fear and even repression in locker rooms, according to multiple players. In short, the Belichick disciples didn’t exactly make coming to work every day a fun experience. They relied on gameday success to be everyone’s reward. Except none of them enjoyed consistent success on game days, so the formula often failed because there was no payoff for accepting the exhausting work atmosphere. This approach typically works with young players for a while because they don’t know any better. But it often meets resistance from veterans, which is why all the teams the disciples joined had to jettison so many veteran players. Another problem is even the young players can turn away from the Belichickian approach after a while. All of Belichick’s disciples believed it wasn’t good to raise any individual player above the rest. The problem is all players are different. Some need to feel empowered, and when they aren’t, they can react negatively. That was the problem with McDaniels in Denver with Jay Cutler. That has at times been the issue in Miami with safety Minkah Fitzpatrick, receiver Kenny Stills, and even sometimes cornerback Xavien Howard. Belichick could get away with it because Tom Brady, who was clearly the reason the Patriots dominated for two decades, allowed himself to be grouped with everyone else and yelled at more than anyone, even as he was becoming arguably the best player in NFL history. But not everyone shares Brady’s willingness to be the first in line for blame when things are rough. Also, none of the Belichick disciples enjoyed a Brady type talent on their roster. They did, however, wear on people. With perhaps Crennel as the lone exception, all the Belichick disciples were hard to work with and for, according to past players and people within their organizations. And after a while, some players wanted out. Some assistant coaches wanted out. Top assistant coaching talent didn’t want to join in when vacancies happened. It’s not for everyone, folks. Brady also eventually wanted to exit, although it took two decades. One reason he was able to last so long was the reward — six Super Bowls — was so high. None of the other Belichick disciples have been able to offer their players such a reward, even as they act like insufferable mini-me Belichicks in other areas. And so the paranoia, the hard practices, the hard meetings, and long hours with little leeway and little reward take their toll. “After a while, it’s hard to buy into what a guy’s preaching when what he’s preaching isn’t working,” one former Lions player told OutKick. “You’re like, ‘Whatever man, let us play, let’s go, and see if that works, ’cause your way ain’t working.'” www.outkick.com/monday-nfl-perspectives-cardinals-beat-browns-and-covid-while-murray-flourishes-plus-flores-and-judge-join-a-list/
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Post by TheAnalyst on Oct 18, 2021 12:54:31 GMT -5
Its not about what he says, its about what he does. We had a play design last year on a 4th and goal that was a fake FG ending up with a pass attempt from Riley Dixon to Nick Gates. It failed of course, because, it was a fake FG pass from Riley Dixon to Nick Gates. That's on the HC. Not to mention the many times his clock management has been terrible. There is plenty to look directly at the HC and scratch your head. And Id still give him 1 more year because, he is that raw and its what should have been expected. They just got smoked by the Rams in MetLife. Rams put their backup QB in it was so easy. Again, the injury excuse can be valid at times, but then you look at teams like the Ravens who are decimated and at 5-1, and say, we have to be better than 1-5 anyway. you just cherry picked a fake FG from last season? Com’on, I get it, you want him gone. If the Giants had Harbaugh i’m sure they would 5-1. Our kicker could hit 66 yard field goals. Is that what you want to hear? No excuses, forget the roster. Win Here is a newsflash - the team wasn’t going to win much at full strength. They likely won’t win at a lesser strength either. The Ram game was going to be ugly which is why the spread was -9.5. The Chiefs game is probably not going to be pretty. Bucs might get ugly. Dallas isn’t looking too promising. Return Barkley and receivers they might play better. If the LT is out and OL can’t run block it’s probably a safe bet the opponent is going to flood the passing lanes. Think John Harbaugh is winning with this roster? No, the Ravens beat up still have enough solid pieces in place. Ok, I thought you would be a good person to debate with and use logic. Im wrong. Have a nice day.
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Post by Rangers13 on Oct 18, 2021 12:59:06 GMT -5
you just cherry picked a fake FG from last season? Com’on, I get it, you want him gone. If the Giants had Harbaugh i’m sure they would 5-1. Our kicker could hit 66 yard field goals. Is that what you want to hear? No excuses, forget the roster. Win Here is a newsflash - the team wasn’t going to win much at full strength. They likely won’t win at a lesser strength either. The Ram game was going to be ugly which is why the spread was -9.5. The Chiefs game is probably not going to be pretty. Bucs might get ugly. Dallas isn’t looking too promising. Return Barkley and receivers they might play better. If the LT is out and OL can’t run block it’s probably a safe bet the opponent is going to flood the passing lanes. Think John Harbaugh is winning with this roster? No, the Ravens beat up still have enough solid pieces in place. Ok, I thought you would be a good person to debate with and use logic. Im wrong. Have a nice day. Debate? You picked a fake FG from last season. Strong foundation. How about a 3rd and 6 draw play which worked? Com’on lol
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Post by Parademon1 on Oct 18, 2021 13:18:52 GMT -5
I would take the "hard core" discipline "no fun" Belichick "Patriot way" & his 17 AFCE div titles, 13 AFCG app, 9 SB app & 6 SB titles in 20yrs everyday of the week & twice on Sunday over any other HCs method! NE just took the same Cowboys team that curb stomped us last week to OT & made them earn that W! I guarantee that he has NE back in the playoffs either this yr or next. Can we say the same?
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Post by vinnie on Oct 18, 2021 13:23:49 GMT -5
I doubt Mara wants to eat 2022, 2023 and 2024. I think he is going to give Judge a chance under a new GM which is fine by me. Not if they don't win games. There is no precedent of a second year coach being retained after losing more games in year 2. Never underestimate the stupidity of John Mara, I would be shocked it Judge isn’t retained and forced on the new GM.
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Post by McCherry on Oct 18, 2021 14:05:13 GMT -5
Not if they don't win games. There is no precedent of a second year coach being retained after losing more games in year 2. Did Shurmur get a 5 year deal? If so, that would mean that if Judge gets fired, Mara will be paying Shurmur, Judge and a new HC next year. The price of ineptitude I guess. Not our money. Could Mara really sell that to the fans? "Hey sorry, but this losing coach is already paid for."
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Post by Rangers13 on Oct 18, 2021 14:07:59 GMT -5
Not if they don't win games. There is no precedent of a second year coach being retained after losing more games in year 2. Never underestimate the stupidity of John Mara, I would be shocked it Judge isn’t retained and forced on the new GM. Judge and Leonard Williams get to interview the future GM before Mara makes the final decision lol
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Post by TCHOF on Oct 18, 2021 14:09:00 GMT -5
Did Shurmur get a 5 year deal? If so, that would mean that if Judge gets fired, Mara will be paying Shurmur, Judge and a new HC next year. The price of ineptitude I guess. Not our money. Could Mara really sell that to the fans? "Hey sorry, but this losing coach is already paid for." I agree. I don't care if Mara has to pay for a thousand coaches. That will certainly be a consideration for Mara though ....
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Post by jaymas on Oct 18, 2021 14:25:04 GMT -5
I don't like DG at all. And I also thought half this board was about how "this is Judge's team now." This roster is hurt. Very hurt. In particular, the offense. The roster offense even half less hurt is good enough to win football games. My coaching issue right now is our defense. It was supposed to be elite. It has lost only one guy.
Problem is we lost 3 games out of the gate (two should have been won for sure) when the roster was healthy. A healthier offense took one in NO, and then got decimated the next week.
Now it's all compounding and things seem to be cracking a little bit, because some of that team absolutely quit yesterday. Win the games you should have won earlier, and this is easier to deal with.
Coaching is bad right now, especially on defense. Games were lost that needed to be won, and players quit in the second half yesterday on defense. Let's see how everyone rebounds and lets hope the offense gets healthy. Otherwise we need to find a way to play some sort of weirdo ball control offense to have a shot (and not turn the ball over ridiculously), but the running game sucks and the defense is terrible...so don't see that happening.
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Post by Jomo on Oct 18, 2021 14:38:28 GMT -5
You can dig up Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry or any coach you can think of and the results are roughly the same. Want a different GM? Sure take your pick but don't expect wins because this Giants system right now doesn't work. It needs to be overhauled from the top down. Mara needs to hire a football man and then go golfing. Every now and then check in to see how ticket sales and TV revenue is going. Make sure the hot dogs are good and the beer is cold. If someone told me I just inherited an NFL franchise, shouldn't that be as good as it gets? Why do I also have to pretend to be a skilled CEO running a complex company AND an exceptional evaluator of talent? It makes no sense to me.
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Post by Sarcasman on Oct 18, 2021 16:30:27 GMT -5
Not if they don't win games. There is no precedent of a second year coach being retained after losing more games in year 2. Did Shurmur get a 5 year deal? If so, that would mean that if Judge gets fired, Mara will be paying Shurmur, Judge and a new HC next year. The price of ineptitude I guess. He did but I believe the Giants are only responsible for the difference between the contract amount and his current salary with Denver. If Denver is smart they're paying him $50 a season.
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Post by Roswell on Oct 18, 2021 17:21:50 GMT -5
The equation Judge has in front of him is impossible for an experienced head coach, let alone a guy who's never been a HC on any level before last year. It should be very interesting to see if he can still control the room.
For my money, they looked like there was a little bit of quit in them in the second half. But they seem to like him, so I expect them to play hard vs Carolina.
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