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Post by giantlegacy on Oct 20, 2021 8:41:52 GMT -5
From what I see Jones was progressing very well and was even carrying this team. Once he lost all of his weapons he started to struggle. Remember when Plax shot himself. Eli looked pretty ordinary with no one to throw to. One last point, many of you were pointing out early this season how no one was getting separation, yet he had no Int’s and was moving the ball. IMO he is the answer. Our current staff on the other hand most likely is not. Found it very interesting once Toney hit more recievers started to get seperation.. That dynamic playmaker that scares defenses..that I had been preaching about the team needing.. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2021 8:54:41 GMT -5
From what I see Jones was progressing very well and was even carrying this team. Once he lost all of his weapons he started to struggle. Remember when Plax shot himself. Eli looked pretty ordinary with no one to throw to. One last point, many of you were pointing out early this season how no one was getting separation, yet he had no Int’s and was moving the ball. IMO he is the answer. Our current staff on the other hand most likely is not. Found it very interesting once Toney hit more recievers started to get seperation.. That dynamic playmaker that scares defenses..that I had been preaching about the team needing.. Its a shame Toney seems to be made of glass while all the fans out here were claiming that Waddle and Smith would always be injured.. |
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Post by nyg2 on Oct 20, 2021 9:02:28 GMT -5
I agree with all of this. He has played well until last Sunday and he was in concussion protocol that week. He probably shouldn’t have been cleared. He is not the problem. Oline injuries, WR injuries, OC ineptitude, an underachieving D with horrendous game planning and an HC that makes very poor in game decisions are the problems. Ros, I like you, but I could easily find a post of you making similar arguments from last season. Is the Rams game his fault? No, of course not, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking he's only had one bad game so far. He didn't play well against the Broncos, Falcons, and Cowboys game either (before he got concussed). Is the defenses the reason we lost against the Falcons when they held them to only 17 points? Is it the Oline's fault that anytime Daniel Jones gets hit, he's most likely going to fumble? Is it the WR's fault that he stares them down instead of going through his progression? This isn't to say that it's entirely his fault, but if we had a Rodgers, Mahomes, or Brady would we be 1-5? I think we all know the answer to that. To get back though to the central topic of this thread, I don't know how anyone can make the argument that he's made a jump from last season. Daniel Jones at his best, will look similar to Jameis Winston from the 2019 season, a guy who can have 30+ TDS, but will also have 30+ TOs. |
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Post by Roswell on Oct 20, 2021 11:02:34 GMT -5
I agree with all of this. He has played well until last Sunday and he was in concussion protocol that week. He probably shouldn’t have been cleared. He is not the problem. Oline injuries, WR injuries, OC ineptitude, an underachieving D with horrendous game planning and an HC that makes very poor in game decisions are the problems. Ros, I like you, but I could easily find a post of you making similar arguments from last season. Is the Rams game his fault? No, of course not, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking he's only had one bad game so far. He didn't play well against the Broncos, Falcons, and Cowboys game either (before he got concussed). Is the defenses the reason we lost against the Falcons when they held them to only 17 points? Is it the Oline's fault that anytime Daniel Jones gets hit, he's most likely going to fumble? Is it the WR's fault that he stares them down instead of going through his progression? This isn't to say that it's entirely his fault, but if we had a Rodgers, Mahomes, or Brady would we be 1-5? I think we all know the answer to that. To get back though to the central topic of this thread, I don't know how anyone can make the argument that he's made a jump from last season. Daniel Jones at his best, will look similar to Jameis Winston from the 2019 season, a guy who can have 30+ TDS, but will also have 30+ TOs. Firstly, I'm glad that you like me. I'm actually a good guy. I mean well and I give to charity.  Secondly, you probably can find quotes I've made from last season making the same arguments as to why it's not entirely his fault. Conditions haven't change much from last year so it's understandable. If the crux of your argument is that in his third year on a poor team he's not Rodgers, Mahomes or Brady then I guess you got me there. He's not likely to be as good as any of those three guys. But those guys don't grow on trees. I will say this, if we had the defense from last year there would be a better product on the field. I disagree with you on how he played vs Atlanta. And I think that he has, up until this week, been a much better QB with respect to ball security, both throwing and running. He might be a Jameis Winston, he might be a Ryan Tannehill, he might be the second coming of Dave Brown. But one thing is for sure, with the equation he's in right now, we are never going to be giving him a fair chance. |
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Post by Roswell on Oct 20, 2021 11:03:17 GMT -5
Do you think that Brady, Stafford and Jones all play under the same circumstances? There’s a difference between “enduring some difficulties” and playing with his 6th left guard, without his improving left tackle, having Solder on the field, losing all of your WRs and having Garrett as your OC. Stanford had played his entire career on the Lions. A team/franchise more dysfunctional than the Giants. Right. And now that he has a team around him? |
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Post by giantlegacy on Oct 20, 2021 11:05:21 GMT -5
Stanford had played his entire career on the Lions. A team/franchise more dysfunctional than the Giants. Right. And now that he has a team around him? He conviently leave out he had Calvin Johnson as one of his recievers for his ,what,first 6 or so years? Who on this team is even half of that guy? |
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Post by giantlegacy on Oct 20, 2021 11:12:18 GMT -5
Redacted
Not worth arguing facts with the unreasonable
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Post by Roswell on Oct 20, 2021 11:24:07 GMT -5
Right. And now that he has a team around him? I don't understand your question. Are you suggesting that Stafford wasn't putting up 5000 yards, 40 TDs, etc when he wasn't on the Lions? The guy, with complete crap around him for the most part, was always a highly productive QB. Highly productive? If he was a Giant, how many people on these boards would say he can't win the big one, he can't get his team in the playoffs? |
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Post by Roswell on Oct 20, 2021 11:33:11 GMT -5
Highly productive? If he was a Giant, how many people on these boards would say he can't win the big one, he can't get his team in the playoffs? Ok, which is it: productivity or wins? Jones gets excused for both because he's surrounded by crap. Stafford was surrounded by crap and still put up gaudy numbers year in and year out. Jones can't even do that. To me, when evaluating a QB, productivity is largely based on wins. Stafford wasn't able to elevate his team into the playoffs because he was on a bad team. I could care less if he threw for 5000 yards. To me, that just means he was playing catch up all the time because his team was losing. Now he's on a good team. Wouldn't surprise me if he gets a ring in the next three years. That's productivity. |
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Post by Roswell on Oct 20, 2021 11:41:34 GMT -5
To me, when evaluating a QB, productivity is largely based on wins. Stafford wasn't able to elevate his team into the playoffs because he was on a bad team. I could care less if he threw for 5000 yards. To me, that just means he was playing catch up all the time because his team was losing. Now he's on a good team. Wouldn't surprise me if he gets a ring in the next three years. That's productivity. It's the old adage: one player doesn't account for wins. Period. Like I said before, the bar has been set so low for Jones that 4 TDs and 4 INTs through 6 games is considered "really good." I just don't know how you or anyone else can sit there and really believe that, let alone argue it. I think that right now if Brady was on the Giants, there's no way he would've won Sunday vs the Rams. And we are talking about Brady. Jones is improved. Not a finished product but better than last year. I think that he's been dealt a rough hand this year whether you think that's an excuse or not. We will see over the course of the year, as he gets his players back, whether you're right or I'm right. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2021 11:44:30 GMT -5
jones was clearly improving/maturing this year up until the concussion play.
he had a rough start to that game but i was thinking he was pretty ramped up and would settle in as the game went on.
he started to look over the field this year, hes been pretty accurate and the dude has actually impressed me with how much a gamer he is, hes played harder than the rest of the team most of the time.
i still dont know where he could land, but not worried about jones. hes far down a list of big problems. when we actually had most of our starters available, and the oline almost kinda looked like an actual nfl oline, the dude stepped up and threw for over 400 yards and won in a fairly hostile environment.
unreal that the NO game already feels like it was a thousand years ago. its a shame, I thought that team had a chance to begin to pick us up off the mat, but alas, its a team that will never be healthy.
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Post by Roswell on Oct 20, 2021 11:55:02 GMT -5
I think that right now if Brady was on the Giants, there's no way he would've won Sunday vs the Rams. And we are talking about Brady. Jones is improved. Not a finished product but better than last year. I think that he's been dealt a rough hand this year whether you think that's an excuse or not. We will see over the course of the year, as he gets his players back, whether you're right or I'm right. My position on Jones this year has not changed: He's not the problem but he's also not the answer. Which does not bode well for the 6th overall pick that is supposed to be your franchise QB for a decade-plus. You might be right. Hard to know with all of these injuries. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2021 12:01:33 GMT -5
I think that right now if Brady was on the Giants, there's no way he would've won Sunday vs the Rams. And we are talking about Brady. Jones is improved. Not a finished product but better than last year. I think that he's been dealt a rough hand this year whether you think that's an excuse or not. We will see over the course of the year, as he gets his players back, whether you're right or I'm right. My position on Jones this year has not changed: He's not the problem but he's also not the answer. Which does not bode well for the 6th overall pick that is supposed to be your franchise QB for a decade-plus. I'm wishing so much that he has changed that I have Jones is good goggles on.. I'm also not taking them off!! |
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Post by thetruth on Oct 20, 2021 12:12:39 GMT -5
My position on Jones this year has not changed: He's not the problem but he's also not the answer. Which does not bode well for the 6th overall pick that is supposed to be your franchise QB for a decade-plus. You might be right. Hard to know with all of these injuries. The problem is his rookie contract is done soon. Is he worth a new $30MM/year deal? The best time to win with a QB is at the tail end of their rookie deal. You can support them better, however, when the QB's get off of the rookie contract thats when problems happen. We're not in that position I wouldn't resign Daniel based on what i've seen. If you dont have a top 10 QB you're not winning a championship, very low probability. I would argue its smart to find one rather than try your best with a guy that absolutely needs all the support he can get. |
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Post by giantlegacy on Oct 20, 2021 12:24:41 GMT -5
You might be right. Hard to know with all of these injuries. The problem is his rookie contract is done soon. Is he worth a new $30MM/year deal? The best time to win with a QB is at the tail end of their rookie deal. You can support them better, however, when the QB's get off of the rookie contract thats when problems happen. We're not in that position I wouldn't resign Daniel based on what i've seen. If you dont have a top 10 QB you're not winning a championship, very low probability. I would argue its smart to find one rather than try your best with a guy that absolutely needs all the support he can get. Which is why this year is so beyond ****ed up.. We just don't know how much support he needs because this team has surrounded him with dogshit No top 10 qb could have done anything witb what he has had up until maybe 6 quarters tbis year when we let Toney on the field. He carried tbe team on his back 2 times tbis year,Washington and New Orleans,only for tbe defense to blow tbe game at the end. Wins,losses,team around him..that goes more on Granpa Gettleman with how he built this roster,especially on 9ffemse when he was drafted. TDs are also on horrible play calling inside the 10 Why sign a big bodied WR and not use him on fades? Where is our red zone threat we paid 6 million a year for ? Why are we compacting the formation witb a line that has been transient all year when we are,what,3 for 3 on 2 point conversations out of shotgun and spead a bit? Now we are looking at hoping he shows enough after the bye week realistically with getting players back that can help.. Honestly the best bet either way is give him the option year and build the rest of the team (hopefully with a GM not hired by the maras )out ....because tbis next draft class is really bad,and trading for a qb/signing Rodgers only works if you are a qb away.. |
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Post by McCherry on Oct 20, 2021 13:11:41 GMT -5
Ok, which is it: productivity or wins? Jones gets excused for both because he's surrounded by crap. Stafford was surrounded by crap and still put up gaudy numbers year in and year out. Jones can't even do that. To me, when evaluating a QB, productivity is largely based on wins. Stafford wasn't able to elevate his team into the playoffs because he was on a bad team. I could care less if he threw for 5000 yards. To me, that just means he was playing catch up all the time because his team was losing. Now he's on a good team. Wouldn't surprise me if he gets a ring in the next three years. That's productivity. And Stafford was a #1 overall pick. That's a different universe than Jones. Nobody ever said Jones was in the same class. Stafford was, (is) one of the great QB's of his generation. He holds several impressive records, playing in the same era as some of the greatest QB's who ever played. And you're right, he never made the Lions better. He suffered through bad GM's, bad coaches and had the same lack of success in terms of wins that Jones is having. |
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 20, 2021 13:27:36 GMT -5
To me, when evaluating a QB, productivity is largely based on wins. Stafford wasn't able to elevate his team into the playoffs because he was on a bad team. I could care less if he threw for 5000 yards. To me, that just means he was playing catch up all the time because his team was losing. Now he's on a good team. Wouldn't surprise me if he gets a ring in the next three years. That's productivity. And Stafford was a #1 overall pick. That's a different universe than Jones. Nobody ever said Jones was in the same class. Stafford was, (is) one of the great QB's of his generation. He holds several impressive records, playing in the same era as some of the greatest QB's who ever played. And you're right, he never made the Lions better. He suffered through bad GM's, bad coaches and had the same lack of success in terms of wins that Jones is having. The teams may have remained bad...but he did produce. DJ's teams are bad and he's also not producing.
I am not giving up on him because I've seen glimpses of stellar play from him. I'm hoping THAT will become the norm.
but it does seem clear that he has one similarity to Eli. He's another "Tofu" QB. He takes on the quality of the team around him. If they suck,... He sucks. if they are good...He's good. He doesn't seem to be able to lift up his team. The reasons for that are hard to identify. He still seems to lock onto one receiver and he doesn't have good pocket awareness. I don't see an improvement there. But the kid can make plays and that's no small thing.
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Post by McCherry on Oct 20, 2021 13:43:24 GMT -5
And Stafford was a #1 overall pick. That's a different universe than Jones. Nobody ever said Jones was in the same class. Stafford was, (is) one of the great QB's of his generation. He holds several impressive records, playing in the same era as some of the greatest QB's who ever played. And you're right, he never made the Lions better. He suffered through bad GM's, bad coaches and had the same lack of success in terms of wins that Jones is having. The teams may have remained bad...but he did produce. DJ's teams are bad and he's also not producing.
I am not giving up on him because I've seen glimpses of stellar play from him. I'm hoping THAT will become the norm.
but it does seem clear that he has one similarity to Eli. He's another "Tofu" QB. He takes on the quality of the team around him. If they suck,... He sucks. if they are good...He's good. He doesn't seem to be able to lift up his team. The reasons for that are hard to identify. He still seems to lock onto one receiver and he doesn't have good pocket awareness. I don't see an improvement there. But the kid can make plays and that's no small thing.
He's played well enough to win in games where the rest of the team sucked. If the defense did its job, this team is 3-3 and nobody is questioning the QB. He's had one bad game that now everyone is basing their "I told you so" line on. |
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Post by Sarcasman on Oct 20, 2021 13:49:07 GMT -5
I think DJ looks like and NFL QB this year. Looks like a guy that could win a Super Bowl if he had a great defence and OL around him. I still don’t think he’s a guy that elevates the players around him. He’s never going to be an MVP type QB. Because the Giants will likely never finish the regular season with the best record in the league. If they do somehow end a regular season as one of the top three teams, then he absolutely will be. But it's the Giants so, no. |
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Post by giantlegacy on Oct 20, 2021 13:53:09 GMT -5
And Stafford was a #1 overall pick. That's a different universe than Jones. Nobody ever said Jones was in the same class. Stafford was, (is) one of the great QB's of his generation. He holds several impressive records, playing in the same era as some of the greatest QB's who ever played. And you're right, he never made the Lions better. He suffered through bad GM's, bad coaches and had the same lack of success in terms of wins that Jones is having. The teams may have remained bad...but he did produce. DJ's teams are bad and he's also not producing.
I am not giving up on him because I've seen glimpses of stellar play from him. I'm hoping THAT will become the norm.
but it does seem clear that he has one similarity to Eli. He's another "Tofu" QB. He takes on the quality of the team around him. If they suck,... He sucks. if they are good...He's good. He doesn't seem to be able to lift up his team. The reasons for that are hard to identify. He still seems to lock onto one receiver and he doesn't have good pocket awareness. I don't see an improvement there. But the kid can make plays and that's no small thing.
Jones has more natural talent than Eli(other than arm strength but even that isn't as far off as many say),especially accuracy and obviously mobility. I will argue that no qb would have done much better than Jones,maybe a Mahomes or Rodgers in his prime would have eked out an extra win or 2? This is why this is a super suck situation because I don't see any of those traits Jones has in any of these qbs coming out....Corral comes the closest in some ways. |
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Post by Roswell on Oct 20, 2021 14:13:32 GMT -5
He's played well enough to win in games where the rest of the team sucked. If the defense did its job, this team is 3-3 and nobody is questioning the QB. He's had one bad game that now everyone is basing their "I told you so" line on. He has 4 TDs and 4 INTs through 6 games. You can say he's had one "bad game" but honestly he's also only had one good game (vs NO). This is the 6th overall pick in his third year. Let's see. No Oline, one WR, no RB.... Yeah, he should be putting up great numbers. |
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Post by kerryisdaman on Oct 20, 2021 14:16:30 GMT -5
TDs are such a bad stat to judge QBs on in my opinion. You have had some great teams that choose to run the ball in rather than pass it in. Take a guy like Troy Aikman. He was a slam dunk Hall Of Fame QB. He only threw for 20 tds once in his whole career. A guy like Vinny Testerverde probably threw at least 100 more TDs than Troy. Was Vinny better?
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Post by kerryisdaman on Oct 20, 2021 14:24:13 GMT -5
TDs are such a bad stat to judge QBs on in my opinion. You have had some great teams that choose to run the ball in rather than pass it in. Take a guy like Troy Aikman. He was a slam dunk Hall Of Fame QB. He only threw for 20 tds once in his whole career. A guy like Vinny Testerverde probably threw at least 100 more TDs than Troy. Was Vinny better? Okay. Where are the rushing TDs that are taking away from Jones' productivity as a passer? That makes it even worse. Good redzone teams can run the ball inside the 20. If we cant run the ball other teams know. So either we try and end up passing on 3rd down or they do not even have to guard against the run. When Jones throws a good pass and KT gets stopped on the 1 yard line instead of scoring that makes Jones less of a QB? I will say we should not be throwing fades in the redzone. We have better options. |
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Post by McCherry on Oct 20, 2021 14:39:43 GMT -5
He's played well enough to win in games where the rest of the team sucked. If the defense did its job, this team is 3-3 and nobody is questioning the QB. He's had one bad game that now everyone is basing their "I told you so" line on. You can say he's had one "bad game" but honestly he's also only had one good game (vs NO). This is the 6th overall pick in his third year. This is highly skewed overview. 3 INT's came in the one bad game which we know the circumstances, and one was a hail mary. Jones has had 1 game in the last 13 starts where he was responsible for multiple turnovers. |
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Post by kerryisdaman on Oct 20, 2021 14:43:33 GMT -5
That makes it even worse. Good redzone teams can run the ball inside the 20. If we cant run the ball other teams know. So either we try and end up passing on 3rd down or they do not even have to guard against the run. When Jones throws a good pass and KT gets stopped on the 1 yard line instead of scoring that makes Jones less of a QB? I will say we should not be throwing fades in the redzone. We have better options. That redzone example you provided is an anomaly. The Giants are the 32nd ranked team (ie "worst") for redzone scoring. That's a combination of bad QB play, bad run game and bad play calling. I do not understand the mindset of some fans. Why can't they objectively analyze Jones without taking it so personally? His nickname is no longer Danny Dimes. It's Teflon Dan. Why is it me "taking things so personally" when I post a reply? What exactly did I make personal in either of my 2 replies in this thread? |
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Post by thetruth on Oct 20, 2021 14:54:53 GMT -5
He has 4 TDs and 4 INTs through 6 games.You can say he's had one "bad game" but honestly he's also only had one good game (vs NO). This is the 6th overall pick in his third year. This is highly skewed overview. 3 INT's came in the one bad game which we know the circumstances, and one was a hail mary. Jones has had 1 game in the last 13 starts where he was responsible for multiple turnovers. 15 TDs thrown in his last 21 games. Mind numbingly bad. |
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Post by thetruth on Oct 20, 2021 14:59:24 GMT -5
That makes it even worse. Good redzone teams can run the ball inside the 20. If we cant run the ball other teams know. So either we try and end up passing on 3rd down or they do not even have to guard against the run. When Jones throws a good pass and KT gets stopped on the 1 yard line instead of scoring that makes Jones less of a QB? I will say we should not be throwing fades in the redzone. We have better options. That redzone example you provided is an anomaly. The Giants are the 32nd ranked team (ie "worst") for redzone scoring. That's a combination of bad QB play, bad run game and bad play calling. I do not understand the mindset of some fans. Why can't they objectively analyze Jones without taking it so personally? His nickname is no longer Danny Dimes. It's Teflon Dan. Yeah he's a part of the problem. I dont think anyone is really denying that Team needs to support Daniel a bunch if he's their guy. That will maximize his natural ability. |
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Post by TCHOF on Oct 20, 2021 15:23:30 GMT -5
He has 4 TDs and 4 INTs through 6 games.You can say he's had one "bad game" but honestly he's also only had one good game (vs NO). This is the 6th overall pick in his third year. This is highly skewed overview. 3 INT's came in the one bad game which we know the circumstances, and one was a hail mary. Jones has had 1 game in the last 13 starts where he was responsible for multiple turnovers. The turnover numbers are not nearly as bad as the TD numbers. 4 TD's in 6 games after only 11 TD's all of last season. That is horrifically bad in 2021 NFL |
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Post by TCHOF on Oct 20, 2021 15:25:47 GMT -5
He has 4 TDs and 4 INTs through 6 games. You can say he's had one "bad game" but honestly he's also only had one good game (vs NO). This is the 6th overall pick in his third year. Let's see. No Oline, one WR, no RB.... Yeah, he should be putting up great numbers. Isn't there some mid-ground between "great" numbers and horrifically bad numbers? 4 TD's in 6 games after 11 TD's all of last season is horrifically bad. |
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Post by McCherry on Oct 20, 2021 15:26:34 GMT -5
This is highly skewed overview. 3 INT's came in the one bad game which we know the circumstances, and one was a hail mary. Jones has had 1 game in the last 13 starts where he was responsible for multiple turnovers. He has definitely cut down on the turnovers which is great. But that's only half of what you quoted. 4 TDs in 6 games? After putting up 11 TDs in 14 games last season? That's dismal in today's NFL. I'd love to see Daniel throw more TD's. It's hard to do when he's being asked to outrun LB's to the pylon. He’s in the top of the league in terms of stats like YPG, deep throwing comp %. But he's missing TD throws in the red zone? We know this is not what's happening. The TD stat doesn't tell the story. The Giants are also failing to score, period. On runs, or whatever type of dumb gadget plays that are being called. Since Garrett arrived, we were 31st in red zone scoring % last year. So far, 32nd this year. |
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