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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Dec 13, 2021 15:55:15 GMT -5
At this moment as bad as it is they are still playing hard as a team. GM / scouts / and upper crust must go. I get the playing hard thing, but he question is are they playing hard in a way that would lead to wins? I would also add that playing hard and disciplined play are not he same thing, and this is a very undisciplined team. I agree but these guys don't quit, I think some of these coaches are learning on the job and the inexperience is showing in the details.
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Post by Morehead State on Dec 13, 2021 16:35:43 GMT -5
I actually think the last two drafts have been better with Judges influence. But as a HC he’s been awful. And I was as high on Judge as anyone. I honestly don’t know where we go from here. It’s so bad that just stopping the bleeding is all we can hope for…. The GM drafts to coaches needs, Shurmur needed and wanted different types of players, 2 different coaches different skills needed to make their vision become reality. No way. Joe Judge's influence is all over the last two drafts.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Dec 13, 2021 17:21:25 GMT -5
The GM drafts to coaches needs, Shurmur needed and wanted different types of players, 2 different coaches different skills needed to make their vision become reality. No way. Joe Judge's influence is all over the last two drafts. what did I just say exactly, he drafts for the coach thats why you can't have it both ways, think if judge said I gotta have Slater or Parsons one of them would be Giants, and that is why this roster is taking for ever the were drafting guys for Shurmur, then they shifted gears to Judge and Graham, Shurmurs finger prints were all over the first 2 drafts and judges are all over these 2.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 13, 2021 18:26:48 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure all the "negative" realistic fans here understand how bad it is and that DG put us here.
If only I had the power to fire him years ago we could be rebuilding already.
2022 is going to be another 4-6 win season.
Then hopefully we see good things trending if the right people are put in the right places.
If not, what's another 4-5 years at this point?
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Post by FanNYG on Dec 13, 2021 21:25:02 GMT -5
It's going to take at least 4 or more years to get us out of this mess! It's too herculean to overcome in 3 years or less and it is a very sad feeling ; (
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Post by cruzsoldier on Dec 13, 2021 21:48:42 GMT -5
I actually think the last two drafts have been better with Judges influence. But as a HC he’s been awful. And I was as high on Judge as anyone. I honestly don’t know where we go from here. It’s so bad that just stopping the bleeding is all we can hope for….
I agree except I don't know how much was Judge's influence verses guys working with Dave in the front office. But clearly the Giants have dropped the ball on the offensive side on so many levels.
The Saquon pick was a disaster. Who the hell knows about Jones except he can't be counted on to stay on the field. The Oline has been one of the worst in the league. Shepard and Slayton are basically useless, and right now the Golladay signing looks awful. And we need an upgrade at TE.
Top that off with the terrible decision to hire Jason Garret as the OC. And now we are left with Freddie Kitchens who looks more clueless with his play calling than Garret did.
Rosie you forgot to add Gettleman saying “I know Jones would definitely not have made it to our pick at #17.” Nobody had Jones with a 1st rd grade the highest grade he got was a 2nd grade. I then dub Gettleman “Professor X” Dave since you have telekinetic powers why does the team suck?
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Post by SemperFi on Dec 13, 2021 22:05:46 GMT -5
Dave has miscalculated this team enough times to make it evident that he needs to retire. But before we simply pawn this mess off on Dave and believe all our problems will follow him out the door; we need to ask ourselves what happened to the idea that Dave was just a figurehead and Joe Judge was running this show?
What changed between then and now?
The state of this team is bleak, but I'd argue this team has been fragile for years - even as far back as the Coughlin years. Those we not great Giants teams. Those were mediocre teams with an uncanny quarterback that came together to enjoy great runs at the right time. But even then - the organization was unable to build upon those teams for continued success.
It's time for Mara to find someone to run this football team and that includes picking his head coach. Joe Judge felt like a great pick and who knows, maybe he will be a successful head coach in the future. But right now his words ring as hollow as the two previous coaches before him and he seems best suited for nice career in television.
Now back to the Giants this deja-vu all over again.
I actually think the last two drafts have been better with Judges influence. But as a HC he’s been awful. And I was as high on Judge as anyone. I honestly don’t know where we go from here. It’s so bad that just stopping the bleeding is all we can hope for…. I'm embarassed to admit that I too was sold by his flim-flam... up until round 4 last April. At this point I have to disagree with you that Judge's draft influence has been helpful. His completely ignoring the O-line has been a disaster and has probably set us back a decent QB and 3 or 4 years. He deserves no 3rd year and should go with DG.
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Post by Morehead State on Dec 14, 2021 10:22:37 GMT -5
No way. Joe Judge's influence is all over the last two drafts. what did I just say exactly, he drafts for the coach thats why you can't have it both ways, think if judge said I gotta have Slater or Parsons one of them would be Giants, and that is why this roster is taking for ever the were drafting guys for Shurmur, then they shifted gears to Judge and Graham, Shurmurs finger prints were all over the first 2 drafts and judges are all over these 2. I believe Dave was completely running the show the first 2 years. After that, Dave was much more a lame duck and Joe Judge had far more input that Shurmur ever did.
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Post by Rangers13 on Dec 14, 2021 10:29:06 GMT -5
what did I just say exactly, he drafts for the coach thats why you can't have it both ways, think if judge said I gotta have Slater or Parsons one of them would be Giants, and that is why this roster is taking for ever the were drafting guys for Shurmur, then they shifted gears to Judge and Graham, Shurmurs finger prints were all over the first 2 drafts and judges are all over these 2. I believe Dave was completely running the show the first 2 years. After that, Dave was much more a lame duck and Joe Judge had far more input that Shurmur ever did. all guesswork. From Gettleman, to Mara, then Chris Mara, Judge, the Pope, etc,
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Post by Morehead State on Dec 14, 2021 11:22:56 GMT -5
I believe Dave was completely running the show the first 2 years. After that, Dave was much more a lame duck and Joe Judge had far more input that Shurmur ever did. all guesswork. From Gettleman, to Mara, then Chris Mara, Judge, the Pope, etc, I suppose to a certain extent. But it's based on the situation. Shurmur didn't have the personality to impose his will. Then, after two failed years with Dave as GM, the team goes in a completely different direction at HC. Joe Judge has a much bigger personality and as I said when he got the job, the team was going to be built in his image. The last 2 drafts have been much better than the previous two. So while I'm "guessing", it is based on the current Giants situation. That said, they all might be gone after this year, including Joe. I don't buy into this "Joe is coming back next year" line we are hearing. NO decent GM candidate would take this job with the framework in place. A new GM worth his salt would want to pick his own HC. So regardless of the current plan, plans can change.
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Post by GameTime on Dec 14, 2021 11:29:28 GMT -5
If Judge's drafting skills resemble his side line in game prowess then we are screwed anyway.
Had so much hope for this guy. Maybe year 3 he actually figures it out
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Post by McCherry on Dec 14, 2021 11:30:23 GMT -5
what did I just say exactly, he drafts for the coach thats why you can't have it both ways, think if judge said I gotta have Slater or Parsons one of them would be Giants, and that is why this roster is taking for ever the were drafting guys for Shurmur, then they shifted gears to Judge and Graham, Shurmurs finger prints were all over the first 2 drafts and judges are all over these 2. I believe Dave was completely running the show the first 2 years. After that, Dave was much more a lame duck and Joe Judge had far more input that Shurmur ever did. Dave has always worked closely with the coaches. We had a former Cardinals coach running the defense and 4 former Cardinals players, not an accident. Shurmur got to choose our QB in the 2019 draft, the idea that Judge has had more input than previous coaches is not something that is backed up with any facts. Whatever input he has had has not been very good, I'll say that.
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Post by Rangers13 on Dec 14, 2021 11:38:55 GMT -5
all guesswork. From Gettleman, to Mara, then Chris Mara, Judge, the Pope, etc, I suppose to a certain extent. But it's based on the situation. Shurmur didn't have the personality to impose his will. Then, after two failed years with Dave as GM, the team goes in a completely different direction at HC. Joe Judge has a much bigger personality and as I said when he got the job, the team was going to be built in his image. The last 2 drafts have been much better than the previous two. So while I'm "guessing", it is based on the current Giants situation. That said, they all might be gone after this year, including Joe. I don't buy into this "Joe is coming back next year" line we are hearing. NO decent GM candidate would take this job with the framework in place. A new GM worth his salt would want to pick his own HC. So regardless of the current plan, plans can change. so true imo. “NO decent GM candidate . . . .” IMO, it’s been off since the boat trip and that Eli fiasco when Mac wanted to make move for Mahomes. Basically, Mac said Eli is done and since then it’s been catchup. The GM who hired the coach and they drafted a QB together hasn’t happened.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 14, 2021 11:47:03 GMT -5
Does this "Giants Insider" have any credibility?
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Post by Morehead State on Dec 14, 2021 13:19:11 GMT -5
I believe Dave was completely running the show the first 2 years. After that, Dave was much more a lame duck and Joe Judge had far more input that Shurmur ever did. Dave has always worked closely with the coaches. We had a former Cardinals coach running the defense and 4 former Cardinals players, not an accident. Shurmur got to choose our QB in the 2019 draft, the idea that Judge has had more input than previous coaches is not something that is backed up with any facts. Whatever input he has had has not been very good, I'll say that. I doubt very seriously that Pat Shurmur "picked" Daniel Jones. It seems clear that he liked Jones, but there is no way he had any free rein to choose him. Dave was still very much in charge. Let's not confuse "consultation" with power. Dave had the power in 2018 and 2019. I believe Joe Judge had the power when he was hired. Don't forget that Dave came very close to being fired after the 2019 season. We can argue about how good a coach Joe Judge is. To me, he's a disappointment. But when it comes to building this team, I believe Joe Judge has a great deal of power. That goes beyond "consultation".
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coughlinscorner
Special Teams
Gooble Gobble We Accept Her One of Us
Posts: 854
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Post by coughlinscorner on Dec 14, 2021 13:52:32 GMT -5
Dave has always worked closely with the coaches. We had a former Cardinals coach running the defense and 4 former Cardinals players, not an accident. Shurmur got to choose our QB in the 2019 draft, the idea that Judge has had more input than previous coaches is not something that is backed up with any facts. Whatever input he has had has not been very good, I'll say that. I doubt very seriously that Pat Shurmur "picked" Daniel Jones. It seems clear that he liked Jones, but there is no way he had any free rein to choose him. Dave was still very much in charge. Let's not confuse "consultation" with power. Dave had the power in 2018 and 2019. I believe Joe Judge had the power when he was hired. Don't forget that Dave came very close to being fired after the 2019 season. We can argue about how good a coach Joe Judge is. To me, he's a disappointment. But when it comes to building this team, I believe Joe Judge has a great deal of power. That goes beyond "consultation". So he can be criticized for bypassing Slater, Parsons, Willis & Wirfs and the selection of Toney and Peart and anyone else you can throw in their. Who does he get credit for McKinney, Olujari, Thomas? Where are the surefire Pro Bowlers?
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Post by McCherry on Dec 14, 2021 13:54:49 GMT -5
Dave has always worked closely with the coaches. We had a former Cardinals coach running the defense and 4 former Cardinals players, not an accident. Shurmur got to choose our QB in the 2019 draft, the idea that Judge has had more input than previous coaches is not something that is backed up with any facts. Whatever input he has had has not been very good, I'll say that. I doubt very seriously that Pat Shurmur "picked" Daniel Jones. It seems clear that he liked Jones, but there is no way he had any free rein to choose him. Dave was still very much in charge. Let's not confuse "consultation" with power. Dave had the power in 2018 and 2019. I believe Joe Judge had the power when he was hired. Don't forget that Dave came very close to being fired after the 2019 season. We can argue about how good a coach Joe Judge is. To me, he's a disappointment. But when it comes to building this team, I believe Joe Judge has a great deal of power. That goes beyond "consultation". The Giants leaned on Shurmur to pick the QB he preferred. If it was Josh Allen, Josh Allen would be our QB. Judge absolutely has a say. I believe that if Joe wanted to keep Kevin Zeitler for example, he would have been here. But Dave has the final say. The Giants did not hand executive control to a special teams coach with no experience in personnel. And honestly, his player evaluation has been as bad as his coaching.
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Post by myronguyton29 on Dec 14, 2021 14:02:24 GMT -5
and from what I just heard on the Herd, check out my thread, he is a COMPLETE AZZZZHAT!!!!!! FAT SUMBITCH
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wtfjjk
Special Teams
Posts: 1,195
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Post by wtfjjk on Dec 14, 2021 15:11:09 GMT -5
Does this "Giants Insider" have any credibility? No, he's a known troll account. He's fooled me and others here before.
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Post by Morehead State on Dec 14, 2021 16:22:51 GMT -5
I doubt very seriously that Pat Shurmur "picked" Daniel Jones. It seems clear that he liked Jones, but there is no way he had any free rein to choose him. Dave was still very much in charge. Let's not confuse "consultation" with power. Dave had the power in 2018 and 2019. I believe Joe Judge had the power when he was hired. Don't forget that Dave came very close to being fired after the 2019 season. We can argue about how good a coach Joe Judge is. To me, he's a disappointment. But when it comes to building this team, I believe Joe Judge has a great deal of power. That goes beyond "consultation". So he can be criticized for bypassing Slater, Parsons, Willis & Wirfs and the selection of Toney and Peart and anyone else you can throw in their. Who does he get credit for McKinney, Olujari, Thomas? Where are the surefire Pro Bowlers? I believe Judge had a huge role in the last 2 drafts. So assign credit or blame accordingly. I think the last two drafts have been much better than the previous 2.
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Post by snyder55 on Dec 14, 2021 16:26:01 GMT -5
all guesswork. From Gettleman, to Mara, then Chris Mara, Judge, the Pope, etc, I suppose to a certain extent. But it's based on the situation. Shurmur didn't have the personality to impose his will. Then, after two failed years with Dave as GM, the team goes in a completely different direction at HC. Joe Judge has a much bigger personality and as I said when he got the job, the team was going to be built in his image. The last 2 drafts have been much better than the previous two. So while I'm "guessing", it is based on the current Giants situation. That said, they all might be gone after this year, including Joe. I don't buy into this "Joe is coming back next year" line we are hearing. NO decent GM candidate would take this job with the framework in place. A new GM worth his salt would want to pick his own HC. So regardless of the current plan, plans can change. I agree, I don't see any decent GM wanting to come in here and have his future as Giants GM depending on a proven loser, no, I see Judge being a serious problem in the GM search...
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Post by solomonphoenix56 on Dec 14, 2021 19:48:09 GMT -5
I suppose to a certain extent. But it's based on the situation. Shurmur didn't have the personality to impose his will. Then, after two failed years with Dave as GM, the team goes in a completely different direction at HC. Joe Judge has a much bigger personality and as I said when he got the job, the team was going to be built in his image. The last 2 drafts have been much better than the previous two. So while I'm "guessing", it is based on the current Giants situation. That said, they all might be gone after this year, including Joe. I don't buy into this "Joe is coming back next year" line we are hearing. NO decent GM candidate would take this job with the framework in place. A new GM worth his salt would want to pick his own HC. So regardless of the current plan, plans can change. I agree, I don't see any decent GM wanting to come in here and have his future as Giants GM depending on a proven loser, no, I see Judge being a serious problem in the GM search... There won't be a GM search. A GM will be appointed by Mara that is on board with Judge as HC. I'd bet he already has him picked out.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Dec 14, 2021 19:49:22 GMT -5
Does this "Giants Insider" have any credibility? No, he's a known troll account. He's fooled me and others here before. Ah thanks. I thought it sounded too blount for Judge.
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Post by cruzsoldier on Dec 14, 2021 19:54:53 GMT -5
I get the playing hard thing, but he question is are they playing hard in a way that would lead to wins? I would also add that playing hard and disciplined play are not he same thing, and this is a very undisciplined team. I agree but these guys don't quit, I think some of these coaches are learning on the job and the inexperience is showing in the details. It doesn't matter if "these guys don't quit." If your not good enough to win games then what are we doing? We need talent and to be honest it has been said that "the organization over values their players who aren't very good." That came from a high level former GM. I don't think you could find another GM in the league that would have handed Sterling Shepard a 14 mil per year deal after all the concussions and injuries ? How about getting some interior linemen with that money gross incompetence I tell you !
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Post by cruzsoldier on Dec 14, 2021 19:57:37 GMT -5
No, he's a known troll account. He's fooled me and others here before. Ah thanks. I thought it sounded too blount for Judge. judge has already said what we already knew that he would be dishonest with everyone outside of the team but honest with the players and organization so now you just have to take what he sez to us as lip service.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Dec 14, 2021 21:55:40 GMT -5
what did I just say exactly, he drafts for the coach thats why you can't have it both ways, think if judge said I gotta have Slater or Parsons one of them would be Giants, and that is why this roster is taking for ever the were drafting guys for Shurmur, then they shifted gears to Judge and Graham, Shurmurs finger prints were all over the first 2 drafts and judges are all over these 2. I believe Dave was completely running the show the first 2 years. After that, Dave was much more a lame duck and Joe Judge had far more input that Shurmur ever did. Shurmur and Rivera before him said with Gettlemen it has always been complete collaboration Shurmur and Better had the same pull as Judge and while in Carolina Rivera said the same thing.
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Post by Morehead State on Dec 14, 2021 22:18:47 GMT -5
I believe Dave was completely running the show the first 2 years. After that, Dave was much more a lame duck and Joe Judge had far more input that Shurmur ever did. Shurmur and Rivera before him said with Gettlemen it has always been complete collaboration Shurmur and Better had the same pull as Judge and while in Carolina Rivera said the same thing. The word "collaboration" can have many meanings and many degrees. That is a very fluid word.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Dec 14, 2021 22:23:37 GMT -5
Shurmur and Rivera before him said with Gettlemen it has always been complete collaboration Shurmur and Better had the same pull as Judge and while in Carolina Rivera said the same thing. The word "collaboration" can have many meanings and many degrees. That is a very fluid word. Rivera put out straight forward that DG got them the players they wanted, they would give him list from the scouts he would watch the film and tell them his and his coaches choices, doesn't get much more collaborative then that, and Shirmur seemed to confirm it.
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Post by Morehead State on Dec 14, 2021 22:30:50 GMT -5
The word "collaboration" can have many meanings and many degrees. That is a very fluid word. Rivera put out straight forward that DG got them the players they wanted, they would give him list from the scouts he would watch the film and tell them his and his coaches choices, doesn't get much more collaborative then that, and Shirmur seemed to confirm it. In this crazy scenario, Dave is just a lackey. Do you believe that?
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Dec 14, 2021 22:49:01 GMT -5
Rivera put out straight forward that DG got them the players they wanted, they would give him list from the scouts he would watch the film and tell them his and his coaches choices, doesn't get much more collaborative then that, and Shirmur seemed to confirm it. In this crazy scenario, Dave is just a lackey. Do you believe that? No. As he has said he and the front office are support staff and all the coaches that have ever worked with him have confirmed it why would it be different for Judge then Shurmur or Rivera. I know you don't like the guy but this is how he try's to do things, maybe look up his Bio from the time he was a high school teacher and coach he has been about working together, He did it every where he has been especially as a GM he has given his coaches the players they want to the best of his ability.
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