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Post by roundabout on Aug 23, 2022 10:43:50 GMT -5
Before making final call on Jones, consider this QB comparison… Completion %. Jones 63. Allen 60 Pass & rush YPG. Jones 247. Allen 249 Pass TD -INT. Jones 45-29. Allen 51-28 QB's are paid to do one thing and one thing one.....Win football games. So Mathew Stafford was paid to win football games with a crap Detroit team,That didn't work out well.....Put a good team around him and He wins a Super Bowl
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Post by PennState1 on Aug 23, 2022 10:51:31 GMT -5
Before making final call on Jones, consider this QB comparison… Completion %. Jones 63. Allen 60 Pass & rush YPG. Jones 247. Allen 249 Pass TD -INT. Jones 45-29. Allen 51-28 QB's are paid to do one thing and one thing one.....Win football games. Teams win games not QBs
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Post by PennState1 on Aug 23, 2022 10:55:34 GMT -5
Before making final call on Jones, consider this QB comparison… Completion %. Jones 63. Allen 60 Pass & rush YPG. Jones 247. Allen 249 Pass TD -INT. Jones 45-29. Allen 51-28 Are you really comparing (not just statistically) Jones to Allen? No, read the post right above yours. My point is we don’t really know what Jones can be. He has been surrounded by crap. Not a little crap, a ton of crap. Does Jones have the same potential as my current favorite QB to watch in the NFL? At this point you would be crazy to claim that, but we really don’t know what his upside can be. Wins?? Are U kidding? On this dumpster fire?
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Post by jaymas on Aug 23, 2022 11:21:22 GMT -5
Haha, that's not cherry-picking Once again, it is literally the definition of cherry picking: www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cherry-pickchoose and take only (the most beneficial or profitable items, opportunities, etc.) from what is available.to select the best or most desirableUnless you're about to try and argue that the following three stats are all the available stats for a QB, your argument holds no water: Completion %. Jones 63. Allen 60 Pass & rush YPG. Jones 247. Allen 249 Pass TD -INT. Jones 45-29. Allen 51-28 Those are standard, major QB stats, no? What other ones would you include? Cherry picking would be like "in games against the tb buccaneers in 2019, Daniel Jones outperformed Josh Allen,so he's similar" No one picked the above because they were advantageous, they'd simply looked at the number of career starts DJ has had and looked at Allen over the same time period.
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Post by jaymas on Aug 23, 2022 11:22:09 GMT -5
The stats aren't cherry picked. It's the first x amount of starts for both guys. No one is trying to say that Daniel Jones is great, or comparing DJ now to what Josh Allen has done the last two years, but it absolutely highlights in a different situation Daniel Jones would probably be better, I don't think that's really arguable as he put up similar statistics in a far worse situation through the same x amount of starts. The things you're saying aren't even the argument. Someone is trying to fairly highlight that the team a QB is on has a significant effect on how they perform and how they are perceived. It also could be a sign, that maybe, just maybe the kid can take a jump. Or he doesn't. We'll see what happens. Josh Allen is one of the best QBs in the NFL, Daniel Jones isn't. But it's possible he makes a jump based on things like the evidence that was just provided. All of these things can be true or possible at the same time, it's not a zero sum game. Yes of course....the Buffalo Bills are a premium franchise. It was a can't miss being drafted by them. Assuming this is sarcasm...but don't really understand why. Since Billy Beane came on board they are quite literally one of the premier franchises in football haha.
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3days
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Post by 3days on Aug 23, 2022 11:42:03 GMT -5
How many of you were ready to throw Eli out after 3 years? Jones is rightly getting a chance to show what he can do. In my view if he can stay healthy he will prove many people wrong. If he can stay healthy.
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Post by jaymas on Aug 23, 2022 11:44:30 GMT -5
Yes of course....the Buffalo Bills are a premium franchise It's incredible what the narrative will shift to in order to defend Jones. It bears repeating: If Jones was drafted 6th overall by the Cowboys, Eagles or Commanders and was producing just like he has been... these same posters would be mocking him and the respective franchise relentlessly. Quite frankly, it's more incredible how good discussion is constantly oversimplified into "defending Jones" or "not defending Jones." Actually read what people are posting. No one, literally no one, is saying he's Josh Allen, as good as Josh Allen or that this guarantees his success this year and moving forward. It's a discussion around the fact that QB success is determined by a number of factors and maybe our guy has a chance to dig out of that hole. It was an interesting nugget that we were discussing. It in no way was it "see! He's actually an elite QB!!" I also literally stated, it guarantees absolutely nothing.
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Post by jaymas on Aug 23, 2022 11:46:07 GMT -5
Those are standard, major QB stats, no? What other ones would you include? Cherry picking would be like "in games against the tb buccaneers in 2019, Daniel Jones outperformed Josh Allen,so he's similar" No one picked the above because they were advantageous, they'd simply looked at the number of career starts DJ has had and looked at Allen over the same time period. Wow. I even provided a direct link to the dictionary and all. Yeah and you're quite literally not understanding the definition of the phrase. It's not advantageous to look at the exact same time parameters with the exact same statistical categories for both sets of data. I don't know how else to explain to you that you're objectively wrong on that one.
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3days
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Post by 3days on Aug 23, 2022 11:48:31 GMT -5
. Not what you said…. But I'm sorry, right now, August 2022, Tyrod Taylor is the better QB. He's SO much better in the pocket. He makes better decisions. He just looks like a solid NFL QB.
As I said....based on 7 years of Tyrod Taylor and 3 years of Daniel Jones. LOL, that is not what you said at all, I put it above in blue. You also said all that matters is wins and losses (I don’t agree, but hey). In 2021 he had 2 wins and 4 loses. To my eyes, Jones looks way better “right now, August 2022” over 2 pre-season games.
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Post by jaymas on Aug 23, 2022 12:00:56 GMT -5
Yeah and you're quite literally not understanding the definition of the phrase. Okay, if you say so. I asked you what statistical categories you'd like to add over that 38 games in order to not make it "cherry-picking," and you have not provided those.
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Post by Rangers13 on Aug 23, 2022 12:16:27 GMT -5
modern day fans know everything. Com’on, better play calling is all we need.
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Post by miggs on Aug 23, 2022 13:10:26 GMT -5
With no protection Taylor is better. But that means the Giants are likely losing.
With protection, Webb is better and the Giants are likely winning
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Post by snyder55 on Aug 23, 2022 15:39:11 GMT -5
we just have to ask ourselves if from what we've seen so far from Jones if we'll be comfortable with Jones as the starter and seeing him get a big contract, I know its all out of our hands but at this point I think I'd rather see Jones. and Tyrod Taylor alternate this season and draft a QB next year...
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Post by snyder55 on Aug 23, 2022 15:40:56 GMT -5
If you believe he is a better QB than Jones then why don’t you want him to be the starter? You always say it’s about wins and losses. Seems contradictory to me. Because Taylor is what he is. I still think that while I'm a bit pessimistic, I DO think that Jones has more upside and it's in our team's interest to give him the chance to improve. Tyrod Taylor isn't improving. But the fact that our braintrust didn't pick up Jones' option should suggest that they share my pessimism, despite what they say for public consumption. do you think Taylor might win us more games this year than Jones, I do...
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Post by snyder55 on Aug 23, 2022 15:43:13 GMT -5
I can only imagine how todays fans would treat Joe Namath. Joe would be out the league in a year due to social media. He was a wild boy Joe was a student of the female anatomy and outspoken about it, it wouldn't be tolerated today...
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Post by Nite on Aug 23, 2022 15:51:37 GMT -5
At this point from two preseason games so far DJ is 'better'. Meaning he is the starter (for now) .If he decides to play FB during the season and gets himself injured then TT comes in...
Honestly I don't think either one is the answer..The DJ fanboys crowing about the last game keep in mind; Its pre-season and they are playing against mostly backups and TT is...well who he is, a jouneyman backup
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Post by jaymas on Aug 23, 2022 15:59:59 GMT -5
At this point from two preseason games so far DJ is 'better'. Meaning he is the starter (for now) .If he decides to play FB during the season and gets himself injured then TT comes in... Honestly I don't think either one is the answer.. The DJ fanboys crowing about the last game keep in mind; Its pre-season and they are playing against mostly backups and TT is...well who he is, a jouneyman backup Literally a microcosm of the issue. No. one. is. crowing. Saying someone had a good game when they had a good game is just that, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean he's an elite QB, it doesn't mean he's going to have a great season. It's a game when as fans we are looking at a drastically different offense and assessing the differences. But if we want to go there...he played with 2 backup olinemen (some backups of backups), his 4th and 5th string RB, and Colin Johnson plus David Sills. Does that not count, or... He did what he was supposed to do which was move the ball against a backup defense...even with a lot of our own backups on offense. It's insane to me that we can't just have a discussion within that context and what it could potentially mean for the season right in front of us where he's going to be the QB and he's a big part of any potential chance of success, which is literally why we watch as fans. If that makes me and others fanboys, so be it haha. Who wouldn't be pleased with the guy playing well? It doesn't have to mean anything more than that, and it doesn't.
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Post by kerryisdaman on Aug 23, 2022 16:00:45 GMT -5
At this point from two preseason games so far DJ is 'better'. Meaning he is the starter (for now) .If he decides to play FB during the season and gets himself injured then TT comes in... Honestly I don't think either one is the answer..The DJ fanboys crowing about the last game keep in mind; Its pre-season and they are playing against mostly backups and TT is...well who he is, a jouneyman backup As a leading DJ "fanboy" I'd like to put a couple of things in context. 1. When speaking about DJ playing against backups we were also running around 50% of our offense with backups including our 6th center and 4th guard. 2. When people say DJ played against backups we should also keep in mind that if DJ is playing against the 2nd team than TT is largely playing against the 3rd team and Webb may even be playing against the 4th team.
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Post by Nite on Aug 23, 2022 17:23:21 GMT -5
At this point from two preseason games so far DJ is 'better'. Meaning he is the starter (for now) .If he decides to play FB during the season and gets himself injured then TT comes in... Honestly I don't think either one is the answer.. The DJ fanboys crowing about the last game keep in mind; Its pre-season and they are playing against mostly backups and TT is...well who he is, a jouneyman backup Literally a microcosm of the issue. No. one. is. crowing. Saying someone had a good game when they had a good game is just that, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean he's an elite QB, it doesn't mean he's going to have a great season. It's a game when as fans we are looking at a drastically different offense and assessing the differences. But if we want to go there...he played with 2 backup olinemen (some backups of backups), his 4th and 5th string RB, and Colin Johnson plus David Sills. Does that not count, or... He did what he was supposed to do which was move the ball against a backup defense...even with a lot of our own backups on offense. It's insane to me that we can't just have a discussion within that context and what it could potentially mean for the season right in front of us where he's going to be the QB and he's a big part of any potential chance of success, which is literally why we watch as fans. If that makes me and others fanboys, so be it haha. Who wouldn't be pleased with the guy playing well? It doesn't have to mean anything more than that, and it doesn't. I hear crowing, perhaps some mooing..chirping and a distant howl (nvrmnd it was an ex.. not important) Yous two dudes should form a fanboy fanclub (fantasia - you can call it....hmmm DJ fantasia? ..naw gotta think of a better name).. Pre-season vanilla..its what they sell at Giant/Acme/Costco at a discount when they want to move product. Its not bad, taste ok going down but it can't compare to lemon pistachio rocky road with chocolate swirl.. thats what DJ is gonna face in the regular.. Just hope (and pray) that he doesn't all of a sudden think he is a rb when a play breaks and wants to become a hero, bad things happen when that occurs
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Post by jaymas on Aug 23, 2022 18:15:39 GMT -5
Literally a microcosm of the issue. No. one. is. crowing. Saying someone had a good game when they had a good game is just that, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean he's an elite QB, it doesn't mean he's going to have a great season. It's a game when as fans we are looking at a drastically different offense and assessing the differences. But if we want to go there...he played with 2 backup olinemen (some backups of backups), his 4th and 5th string RB, and Colin Johnson plus David Sills. Does that not count, or... He did what he was supposed to do which was move the ball against a backup defense...even with a lot of our own backups on offense. It's insane to me that we can't just have a discussion within that context and what it could potentially mean for the season right in front of us where he's going to be the QB and he's a big part of any potential chance of success, which is literally why we watch as fans. If that makes me and others fanboys, so be it haha. Who wouldn't be pleased with the guy playing well? It doesn't have to mean anything more than that, and it doesn't. I hear crowing, perhaps some mooing..chirping and a distant howl (nvrmnd it was an ex.. not important) Yous two dudes should form a fanboy fanclub (fantasia - you can call it....hmmm DJ fantasia? ..naw gotta think of a better name).. Pre-season vanilla..its what they sell at Giant/Acme/Costco at a discount when they want to move product. Its not bad, taste ok going down but it can't compare to lemon pistachio rocky road with chocolate swirl.. thats what DJ is gonna face in the regular.. Just hope (and pray) that he doesn't all of a sudden think he is a rb when a play breaks and wants to become a hero, bad things happen when that occurs Laughed at your first paragraph out loud. And I hear you...but it's vanilla vs. vanilla and a lot of backups are involved. Guy did what he needed to do in the context of that game, which is good for what it is. More excited that our vanilla offensive scheme seems better than full, mid-season Garrett and Judge.
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Post by kerryisdaman on Aug 23, 2022 18:31:32 GMT -5
Literally a microcosm of the issue. No. one. is. crowing. Saying someone had a good game when they had a good game is just that, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean he's an elite QB, it doesn't mean he's going to have a great season. It's a game when as fans we are looking at a drastically different offense and assessing the differences. But if we want to go there...he played with 2 backup olinemen (some backups of backups), his 4th and 5th string RB, and Colin Johnson plus David Sills. Does that not count, or... He did what he was supposed to do which was move the ball against a backup defense...even with a lot of our own backups on offense. It's insane to me that we can't just have a discussion within that context and what it could potentially mean for the season right in front of us where he's going to be the QB and he's a big part of any potential chance of success, which is literally why we watch as fans. If that makes me and others fanboys, so be it haha. Who wouldn't be pleased with the guy playing well? It doesn't have to mean anything more than that, and it doesn't. I hear crowing, perhaps some mooing..chirping and a distant howl (nvrmnd it was an ex.. not important) Yous two dudes should form a fanboy fanclub (fantasia - you can call it....hmmm DJ fantasia? ..naw gotta think of a better name).. Pre-season vanilla..its what they sell at Giant/Acme/Costco at a discount when they want to move product. Its not bad, taste ok going down but it can't compare to lemon pistachio rocky road with chocolate swirl.. thats what DJ is gonna face in the regular.. Just hope (and pray) that he doesn't all of a sudden think he is a rb when a play breaks and wants to become a hero, bad things happen when that occurs There is always room for more if you would like to join the Danny Dimes fanclub. I can put in a good word for you.
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 23, 2022 19:35:09 GMT -5
As I said....based on 7 years of Tyrod Taylor and 3 years of Daniel Jones. LOL, that is not what you said at all, I put it above in blue. You also said all that matters is wins and losses (I don’t agree, but hey). In 2021 he had 2 wins and 4 loses. To my eyes, Jones looks way better “right now, August 2022” over 2 pre-season games. As I said....I'm basing it on 7 years of Taylor and 3 years of Jones. I have no idea why you are suggesting I'm saying otherwise.
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Post by Nite on Aug 23, 2022 22:32:51 GMT -5
I hear crowing, perhaps some mooing..chirping and a distant howl (nvrmnd it was an ex.. not important) Yous two dudes should form a fanboy fanclub (fantasia - you can call it....hmmm DJ fantasia? ..naw gotta think of a better name).. Pre-season vanilla..its what they sell at Giant/Acme/Costco at a discount when they want to move product. Its not bad, taste ok going down but it can't compare to lemon pistachio rocky road with chocolate swirl.. thats what DJ is gonna face in the regular.. Just hope (and pray) that he doesn't all of a sudden think he is a rb when a play breaks and wants to become a hero, bad things happen when that occurs There is always room for more if you would like to join the Danny Dimes fanclub. I can put in a good word for you. Do they take Bitcoin?
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Post by kerryisdaman on Aug 23, 2022 22:41:42 GMT -5
There is always room for more if you would like to join the Danny Dimes fanclub. I can put in a good word for you. Do they take Bitcoin? LOL yes with a 20% surcharge
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Post by TEM on Aug 24, 2022 6:21:20 GMT -5
LOL, that is not what you said at all, I put it above in blue. You also said all that matters is wins and losses (I don’t agree, but hey). In 2021 he had 2 wins and 4 loses. To my eyes, Jones looks way better “right now, August 2022” over 2 pre-season games. As I said....I'm basing it on 7 years of Taylor and 3 years of Jones. I have no idea why you are suggesting I'm saying otherwise. Taylor has been the league for 11 years ,and has progressively gotten worse after 2017 Taylor's first 3 years ( year 5 in the league) Completion percentage 63% Yards per attempt 7.2 Taylor's past 4 years ( horrible) Completion percentage 57.5% Yards per attempt 6.1 His completion % fell 5.5 points His YPA fell a full yard. The past 4 years Jones Completion percentage 63% Yards per attempt 6.6 Taylor is getting old and has trouble completing passes. FYI this preseason Jones's completion percentage is 77% Taylor's completion percentage is 62.5% 14.5 points lower than Jones' "Tyrod Taylor is better" is not the phrase I would have used to named this thread. I would have gone with; "Tyrod Taylor is better than Mike Glennon"
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Post by TEM on Aug 24, 2022 6:46:59 GMT -5
Before making final call on Jones, consider this QB comparison… Completion %. Jones 63. Allen 60 Pass & rush YPG. Jones 247. Allen 249 Pass TD -INT. Jones 45-29. Allen 51-28 QB's are paid to do one thing and one thing one.....Win football games. Football is a how well is the team bult driven sport. Not a QB driven sport. The talking heads keep parroting the same thing year after year. Yet the best QB in the league in any particular season rarely wis the SB. Football is won by how good the team is built, not QBs. The QB is just a component. "The Why has Arron Rodgers only won 1 SB" Is proof and, put that narrative to rest. Marino Another example.
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Post by GameTime on Aug 24, 2022 6:50:33 GMT -5
QB's are paid to do one thing and one thing one.....Win football games. Football is a how well is the team bult driven sport. Not a QB driven sport. The talking heads keep parroting the same thing year after year and the best QB in the league in any particular season rarely wis the SB. Football is won by teams not QBs. The QB is just a component. "The Why has Arron Rodgers only won1 SB" Proof, put that narrative to rest. Marino Another example. I agree mostly The QB should be listed as a "major" component. I am sure you have math for this but I would think a QBs play has more to do with losses and wins, in general, than any other individual position. With that said its a huge team game. Even in baseball the tide has shifted away from wins and losses as an important stat for a pitcher. team game
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Post by TEM on Aug 24, 2022 7:01:04 GMT -5
Football is a how well is the team bult driven sport. Not a QB driven sport. The talking heads keep parroting the same thing year after year and the best QB in the league in any particular season rarely wis the SB. Football is won by teams not QBs. The QB is just a component. "The Why has Arron Rodgers only won1 SB" Proof, put that narrative to rest. Marino Another example. I agree mostly The QB should be listed as a "major" component. I am sure you have math for this but I would think a QBs play has more to do with losses and wins, in general, than any other individual position. With that said its a huge team game. Even in baseball the tide has shifted away from wins and losses as an important stat for a pitcher. team game The QB position group is no different than the importance of any other. If a GM goes too far over on what percentage of cap allocation is applied to a particular position group. Needed cap percentage will be taken away from another group or all groups (underfunded). The result: that group where money was taken from will have substandard players. I will say it again: The 2 root parameters in building a roster if not correct, will hamper the ability to win a championship. 1) Cap spending on position groups. 2) Production verses Availability.
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Post by GameTime on Aug 24, 2022 7:13:03 GMT -5
I agree mostly The QB should be listed as a "major" component. I am sure you have math for this but I would think a QBs play has more to do with losses and wins, in general, than any other individual position. With that said its a huge team game. Even in baseball the tide has shifted away from wins and losses as an important stat for a pitcher. team game The QB position group is no different than the importance of any other. If a GM goes too far over on what percentage of cap allocation is applied to a particular position group. Needed cap percentage will be taken away from another group or all groups (underfunded). The result: that group where money was taken from will have substandard players. I will say it again: The 2 root parameters in building a roster if not correct, will hamper the ability to win a championship. 1) Cap spending on position groups. 2) Production verses Availability. yes I remember all your findings and I really appreciate them and they make sense for sure. With that said the QB IS a more important position than most and YES they do have spend money wisely so that said QB cant get his job done.
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Post by TEM on Aug 24, 2022 7:24:42 GMT -5
The QB position group is no different than the importance of any other. If a GM goes too far over on what percentage of cap allocation is applied to a particular position group. Needed cap percentage will be taken away from another group or all groups (underfunded). The result: that group where money was taken from will have substandard players. I will say it again: The 2 root parameters in building a roster if not correct, will hamper the ability to win a championship. 1) Cap spending on position groups. 2) Production verses Availability. yes I remember all your findings and I really appreciate them and they make sense for sure. With that said the QB IS a more important position than most and YES they do have spend money wisely so that said QB cant get his job done. I am not arguing that. I am saying a team does not need great at any position. They need good enough. If the team is built good enough in all aspects. It will win. They also need players that are available. I am against paying a FA or drafting a player that is great when his is in the game, but you only get 60 to 70% availability out of him. That is one of the problems we have had.
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