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Post by NAVY2323(ret) on Jun 23, 2018 18:27:15 GMT -5
Mitchell was a JR signing, AP was a EA signing, he was signed the same year as Plaxico Burress. You want to talk about 2 key adds whose value to that 07' SB win can't possibly be understated. So there is a fantastic clip of the Pats running a play in week 17. It's a pass play, and Mitchell drops into coverage. In the SB, the Pats run the same play, and Michell starts to back peddle into coverage, and then the red sea parts in front of him, and he goes barreling in a Brady for a sack.
What happens if Michell isn't on the team?
Great play, no question. Also a very specific example. I mean can you even compare the overall value of Mitchell to AP or PB? I brought up the mediocrity of Alford, but what if he didn't barrel up the middle and sack Brady on 2nd and 10 in the waning moments? You could play those sorts of games all day. Then you're going from a generally speculative topic to a specifically speculative topic. That's an even more slippery slope than the original premise IMO.
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Post by Delicreep on Jun 23, 2018 18:35:11 GMT -5
So there is a fantastic clip of the Pats running a play in week 17. It's a pass play, and Mitchell drops into coverage. In the SB, the Pats run the same play, and Michell starts to back peddle into coverage, and then the red sea parts in front of him, and he goes barreling in a Brady for a sack.
What happens if Michell isn't on the team?
Great play, no question. Also a very specific example. I mean can you even compare the overall value of Mitchell to AP or PB? I brought up the mediocrity of Alford, but what if he didn't barrel up the middle and sack Brady on 2nd and 10 in the waning moments? You could play those sorts of games all day. Then you're going from a generally speculative topic to a specifically speculative topic. That's an even more slippery slope than the original premise IMO. It's tricky, slippery...and fun!
You are spot on about Alford, and maybe we would have won 2 in a row if a different GM passed on him and took that all pro safety.
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Post by NAVY2323(ret) on Jun 23, 2018 18:43:00 GMT -5
Great play, no question. Also a very specific example. I mean can you even compare the overall value of Mitchell to AP or PB? I brought up the mediocrity of Alford, but what if he didn't barrel up the middle and sack Brady on 2nd and 10 in the waning moments? You could play those sorts of games all day. Then you're going from a generally speculative topic to a specifically speculative topic. That's an even more slippery slope than the original premise IMO. It's tricky, slippery...and fun!
You are spot on about Alford, and maybe we would have won 2 in a row if a different GM passed on him and took that all pro safety.
I think we all know that 2nd SB win would have happened if a certain WR hadn't shot himself. However, if we had won that 2nd SB would it have resulted in a 3rd win in 11' because we would have still had Burress and may not have been able to grab Nicks a few spots back from #29? Perplexing stuff.
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Post by Delicreep on Jun 23, 2018 18:48:01 GMT -5
It's tricky, slippery...and fun!
You are spot on about Alford, and maybe we would have won 2 in a row if a different GM passed on him and took that all pro safety.
I think we all know that 2nd SB win would have happened if a certain WR hadn't shot himself. However, if we had won that 2nd SB would it have resulted in a 3rd win in 11' because we would have still had Burress and may not have been able to grab Nicks a few spots back from #29? Perplexing stuff. Well...I know what I think, but there cannot be a right answer (without a time machine)
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Post by Roosevelt on Jun 23, 2018 19:25:54 GMT -5
No doubt. You simply cannot argue against those two Super Bowls. Well, yes you can but you won’t win. Tell that to those who love to say this ignorant quote. "Ernie Accorsi was responsible for both of those Super Bowls" Also, Accorsi had some bad years under his belt as well, yet no one called for his ouster. Remember the Giants O line during Fassel's last two seasons? It was a nightmare. However, it was time for Reese to move on. He'll resurface soon enough and I wish him all the best.
Reese made changes to Accorsi's team just like Gettleman made changes to Reese's team.
If someone wants to argue that Accorsi was responsible for our 2007 season Super Bowl, wouldn't that mean Reese will be responsible for the success of this year's team?
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Post by giantspride4life on Jun 23, 2018 19:34:18 GMT -5
I think it's a no brainer. Yes Was Reese great? Of course not. But think of it this way. If the Giants win the superbowl this year and Barkley and some other draft choices are major contributors to that (Reese 1st draft was terrific and many contributed to that 1st superbowl) and then we win another super bowl in 4 years and follow that up with a 5-6 year period of some poor drafting and mostly 6-10 to 9-7 records missing the playoffs would you take it or leave it? I say take it 100% no question.
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Post by giantspride4life on Jun 23, 2018 19:36:01 GMT -5
I have love for Reese for helping deliver those 2 trophies. Did he make a lot of mistakes, yes. Was he the greatest GM ever, absolutely not. Did he have a huge hand in 2 super bowls, absolutely. And once the pain of the last several years and some draft busts heal, should he be remembered fondly by giants fan for helping in those 2 super bowls? I'd say yes
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Post by giantspride4life on Jun 23, 2018 19:36:18 GMT -5
I have love for Reese for helping deliver those 2 trophies. Did he make a lot of mistakes, yes. Was he the greatest GM ever, absolutely not. Did he have a huge hand in 2 super bowls, absolutely. And once the pain of the last several years and some draft busts heal, should he be remembered fondly by giants fan for helping in those 2 super bowls? I'd say yes
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Post by Sarcasman on Jun 24, 2018 0:46:30 GMT -5
Except the unnecessary shot at the people that disagree with his view at the end. That's fair.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2018 1:25:50 GMT -5
based on what we've just seen Gettleman accomplish in the short time he's been here I would say no I wouldn't have hired Reese... Remind me again of what Gettleman has accomplished...
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Post by babybulls on Jun 24, 2018 7:21:58 GMT -5
Gettleman and Shurmur would not have been available then, so I am good with what happened. I look to the future of this team. A great point. Gettlemen was available, Acorsi recommended Reese over him.
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Post by babybulls on Jun 24, 2018 7:22:15 GMT -5
Gettleman and Shurmur would not have been available then, so I am good with what happened. I look to the future of this team. A great point. Gettlemen was available, Acorsi recommended Reese over him.
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Post by JoeBigBlue on Jun 24, 2018 7:24:58 GMT -5
based on what we've just seen Gettleman accomplish in the short time he's been here I would say no I wouldn't have hired Reese... Remind me again of what Gettleman has accomplished... The answer is in your signature.
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Post by snyder55 on Jun 24, 2018 9:49:56 GMT -5
based on what we've just seen Gettleman accomplish in the short time he's been here I would say no I wouldn't have hired Reese... Remind me again of what Gettleman has accomplished... just take a look at the roster we have now compared to last year and years before that and if you still don't see the difference then I rest my case.......
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Post by snyder55 on Jun 24, 2018 10:07:33 GMT -5
based on what we've just seen Gettleman accomplish in the short time he's been here I would say no I wouldn't have hired Reese... So you would have gave up the 2 Super bowl trophies and let the dice roll and land where they may. At least you are honest. I can respect that. I know that I'm in the minority in this but I have said before that winning the SB is great when it happens but I would personally be happy to watch my team play good quality football on every Sunday and not get humiliated the way we do. I know my opinion wouldn't be popular but after seeing so much crappy football from the Giants it has come down to this for me...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2018 10:13:20 GMT -5
It's a baiting question.
Of course we would want to see the Giants win two SBs.
But those SB wins don't make Reese a great GM and certainly doesn't absolve him of an overall subpar tenure as a GM. A great GM consistently puts together competitive football teams year in and year out. Reese couldn't do that, period.
2007-08 SB was almost an entirely roster made from Accorsi. 2011-12 SB was an anomalous team that was pretty much carried by Eli the entire regular season to barely get them in the playoffs at 9-7.
Since 2011 Reese's failures have been on full display, argued to death by fans and the results are indisputable.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2018 10:39:04 GMT -5
Remind me again of what Gettleman has accomplished... The answer is in your signature. Spewing hyperbole is hardly an accomplishment.
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Post by Jomo on Jun 24, 2018 10:56:26 GMT -5
It's a baiting question. Of course we would want to see the Giants win two SBs. Yes, it is a debating technique known as the false choice. One result or data point does not necessarily lead to the conclusion presented.
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Post by JoeBigBlue on Jun 24, 2018 11:01:24 GMT -5
The answer is in your signature. Spewing hyperbole is hardly an accomplishment. Not true; people do it here all the time and are very proud of themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2018 11:04:10 GMT -5
Remind me again of what Gettleman has accomplished... just take a look at the roster we have now compared to last year and years before that and if you still don't see the difference then I rest my case....... Where it matters most... 2014 Eli Manning (33 years old) Ryan Nassib 2015 Eli Manning (34 years old) Ryan Nassib 2016 Eli Manning (35 years old) Josh Johnson 2017 Eli Manning (36 years old) Geno Smith Davis Webb (late-3rd round pick) 2018 Eli Manning (37 years old) Davis Webb (late-3rd round pick) Kyle Lauletta (4th round pick)
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Post by Speedman on Jun 24, 2018 11:07:12 GMT -5
just take a look at the roster we have now compared to last year and years before that and if you still don't see the difference then I rest my case....... Where it matters most... 2014 Eli Manning (33 years old) Ryan Nassib 2015 Eli Manning (34 years old) Ryan Nassib 2016 Eli Manning (35 years old) Josh Johnson 2017 Eli Manning (36 years old) Geno Smith Davis Webb (late-3rd round pick) 2018 Eli Manning (37 years old) Davis Webb (late-3rd round pick) Kyle Lauletta (4th round pick) I guess your idea of a roster is only the QB position.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2018 11:46:51 GMT -5
Where it matters most... 2014 Eli Manning (33 years old) Ryan Nassib 2015 Eli Manning (34 years old) Ryan Nassib 2016 Eli Manning (35 years old) Josh Johnson 2017 Eli Manning (36 years old) Geno Smith Davis Webb (late-3rd round pick) 2018 Eli Manning (37 years old) Davis Webb (late-3rd round pick) Kyle Lauletta (4th round pick) I guess your idea of a roster is only the QB position. "Where it matters most..."
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2018 12:07:23 GMT -5
Tell that to those who love to say this ignorant quote. "Ernie Accorsi was responsible for both of those Super Bowls" Also, Accorsi had some bad years under his belt as well, yet no one called for his ouster. Remember the Giants O line during Fassel's last two seasons? It was a nightmare. However, it was time for Reese to move on. He'll resurface soon enough and I wish him all the best. Reese made changes to Accorsi's team just like Gettleman made changes to Reese's team. If someone wants to argue that Accorsi was responsible for our 2007 season Super Bowl, wouldn't that mean Reese will be responsible for the success of this year's team?
Valid argument. But if we’re 8-8 that still wouldn’t be much of a ringing endorsement. And if we do more than double our previous win total what will be the largest contributing difference between the years? The OL more than likely IMO...which of course Reese’s fingerprints are no longer on. (Other than Flowers hopefully being a serviceable #9 overall pick playing RT)
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Post by Sarcasman on Jun 24, 2018 12:07:37 GMT -5
Where it matters most... 2014 Eli Manning (33 years old) Ryan Nassib 2015 Eli Manning (34 years old) Ryan Nassib 2016 Eli Manning (35 years old) Josh Johnson 2017 Eli Manning (36 years old) Geno Smith Davis Webb (late-3rd round pick) 2018 Eli Manning (37 years old) Davis Webb (late-3rd round pick) Kyle Lauletta (4th round pick) I guess your idea of a roster is only the QB position. Where it matters most to any individual is a personal opinion. There’s nothing wrong with having a view. Some feel that we have underinvested in ST for the past decade and point out that the punter has likely cost us more games than any other single position over the past few years. No point in over spilt milk, we move on.
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Post by TEM on Jun 24, 2018 12:46:26 GMT -5
So I would say you agree you would take Jr's entire tenure . There is also no proof we would have places 2 in the case with a different GM. With JR the 2 are a set in stone we got them. This reminds me of a poltical debate, you're obviously in the JR camp and using the 2 SBs as a way to twist the argument in your favor regardless of what anyone says. Not at all I just feel the one side of the coin ( the 2 rings ) out weighs the other (all the bad seasons.)
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Post by TEM on Jun 24, 2018 12:50:09 GMT -5
Gettlemen was available, Acorsi recommended Reese over him. You dint know that. This is purely based upon opinion. I like to stick to the facts. The fact is Accorsi did not suggest to Mara Reese was not fit for the Job.
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Post by TEM on Jun 24, 2018 12:56:56 GMT -5
So you would have gave up the 2 Super bowl trophies and let the dice roll and land where they may. At least you are honest. I can respect that. I know that I'm in the minority in this but I have said before that winning the SB is great when it happens but I would personally be happy to watch my team play good quality football on every Sunday and not get humiliated the way we do. I know my opinion wouldn't be popular but after seeing so much crappy football from the Giants it has come down to this for me... As I said I can respect that . You said no it was not worth it. You are in the minority and not using the proverbial "What if" or " The 2 SB would have been achieved anyway" to bolster your point.
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Post by TEM on Jun 24, 2018 13:01:58 GMT -5
Name another in the this millennium that has accomplished what JR did. The REAL question is right there in that sentence TEM. Was he the key (integral) driver of those SB wins or was he mostly just hanging around a HOF HC and QB during that period? Since he had nothing to do with either being here and because a HC and QB are the two most important factors in winning NFL Championships, I am gonna fall on the...……….."he was largely hanging around" side of the argument and very fortunate to have someone else hand him those two. "Hang around" would suggest he did nothing . Are you saying he had zero influence on the out come of both runs? I am just trying do decipher where you are coming from.
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Post by Jomo on Jun 24, 2018 13:30:44 GMT -5
Well, like most things nothing is ever black or white. It is often complicated.
Between the two choices of "the Super Bowls are his and we wouldn't have won either without him" and "he had nothing to do with the wins"
I would come down a little less than halfway in the middle. Would we have won the two SB with another GM here? I would say yes at a 60/40 level of certainty.
Stated differently, among all the factors that brought us the two rings, he was about the 3rd or 4th most important factor.
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Post by TEM on Jun 24, 2018 13:30:58 GMT -5
What if we win those superbowls and more with another GM who kept the oline from regressing? A guy who had hand in drafting and building the core guys responsible for the first Superbowl win? What if we had a GM that didn't strikeout as much as Reese did in rounds 3-7. What if we kept Reese in the same capacity as he was in 2006 and promoted someone else with a better eye for the oline? I'm gonna vote for No. We would have won those superbowls and had a more formidable team with Reese in the system but someone else in charge. Edit.. FYI.. We can change our vote on this board. I will reiterate again" only 3 GMs out of all the GMs that have been attached to a team have won multiples in this millennium. Only a handful have one 1 . Explain why that is? If your "what If" scenarios were base upon reality. More GMs would have achieved the same results. The fact is Reese's teams won and the others did not. It proves just changing The GM insures nothing and more likely will result in a incomplete team. Now if you want to say you would forfeit the 2 rings and let the darts land where they may have. I am OK with that. You and I are on the same page about Eli. Using the same argument to discredit JR as the Anti Eli proponents use is perplexing to me.
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