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Post by TEM on Jul 6, 2018 11:06:33 GMT -5
It's well known that a weakness of the 3-4 is the There are only so many natural two-gap 3-4 nose tackles in the world, There is no doubt Snacks was a good one, does he still have that ability? If he gets hurt does Thomas? If you don't have one you can't stop the run. We are screwed. To an extent, it's true of 3-4 DEs as well: not many ends can overpower tackles and tight ends in the run game yet still have the speed and technique needed to sack the quarterback. Do we even have one Defensive Ends that can get to the QB and stop the run ? We don’t know if we do. Without Hank last season we got hammered in the running game. Tomlinson and Hill are promising but unproven 3-4 DEs Without quality ends, the pass rush must come from the blitz. This becomes too one dimensional. Relying on the four linebackers to provide the pass rush is a dangerous game. Linebackers must also share coverage responsibilities, and too-aggressive blitzing can be exploited by good quarterbacks. Consider our corners; at this point are suspect as of they can be effective in allowing anytime blitz packages. Large, strong inside linebackers are crucial, as second-level blockers like tight ends, fullbacks and pulling guards are hard for two-gap linemen to occupy. ILBs must be able to shed these blocks quickly in order to make plays. Goodson is a; I don’t know he can handle a pulling guard. He could not last year. Ogletree is not known as a thumper. Does he have the ability to step up and deliver a big hit on a Ball carrier coming at him at full speed? Everyone of these is a huge? . That is not comforting going onto this season. I just hope Gentlemen, Shurmur and Belcher have this under control. From this fans point of view. This Defense has way too many uncertainties with a little over 60 days before the start of the season. What scares me about the 3-4 is : It is a that peg must fit into this hole system. If we do not have the right pegs. Just ask McAdoo how that turns out. I can not take credit for all this. I took a lot of what the author wrote and applied to the Giants. bleacherreport.com/articles/1289011-showcasing-the-biggest-differences-in-the-4-3-and-3-4-pass-rush
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2018 11:32:34 GMT -5
I just commented on this in another post. Moving to a 3-4 without 3-4 pieces is a little concerning. Very fews teams have pulled this off successfully in the first year. However, it appears that the 3-4 is very popular once again, so we're just going to have to wait and see how this pans out as the season progresses. My biggest concern are the corners. This has nothing to do with the scheme, but merely talent. After Jenkins, good luck.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2018 12:14:31 GMT -5
Wasn't there a rumor that when this guy was brought in that he might play some kind of hybrid 3-4 / 4-3 ? Why does a team need to be one or the other? If you start a game in the 3-4 and get picked apart the first 2 drives why can't they flip it? Even if it doesn't work I just hope these new coaches actually make some in game adjustments because I don't think I've seen one from the Giants coaching staff in 15 years.
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gumby
Special Teams
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Post by gumby on Jul 6, 2018 12:22:07 GMT -5
Dunno. Don't those kind of transitions take some time? How much time do we have? We're very much in win now mode despite our record last year.
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wtfjjk
Special Teams
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Post by wtfjjk on Jul 6, 2018 13:31:34 GMT -5
Well, Snacks was pretty much the best 3-4 nose tackle when he was with the Jets so he should be set. Everyone else other than the rookies seems to be playing new positions like Vernon as a LB.
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Post by Roosevelt on Jul 6, 2018 15:12:59 GMT -5
I know I'm in the minority, but I'm excited about the new defense based on the aggressive nature the DC brings.
I expect to see our defense lining up in multiple formations, and it appears that we will see much more blitzing from the safeties.
Of course it's up to the coaches to make sure we have the personnel that suits this defense, and given we are a win now team as Gumby said, you would assume this has been taken into account.
Here's a clip of Zona's defense from last year:
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Post by nygiantsfan1029 on Jul 6, 2018 18:09:00 GMT -5
To be honest I’m more worried about the defense then the offense and that in itself is frightening. I’m not worried about snacks I’m more worried bout the LBs DEs and CBs
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Post by Martin on Jul 6, 2018 20:14:27 GMT -5
I am excited about the team and there is a lot of new coming on both sides of the ball. I don't expect huge developments and from a defensive perspective going to 3 - 4 is going to take some time. I know many hybrid D's are out there but until I see what the coached know I have to assume its going to have many bumps in putting the D together. Who knows maybe the O bails out the D this year. 35 points a game! I can dream right?
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Post by Nick6475 on Jul 6, 2018 21:38:02 GMT -5
I know I'm in the minority, but I'm excited about the new defense based on the aggressive nature the DC brings.
I expect to see our defense lining up in multiple formations, and it appears that we will see much more blitzing from the safeties.
Of course it's up to the coaches to make sure we have the personnel that suits this defense, and given we are a win now team as Gumby said, you would assume this has been taken into account.
Here's a clip of Zona's defense from last year:
The blitzing sounds great, but with this secondary they will need to get to the QB immediately because 1 on 1 coverage is going to be exploited all day against them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2018 1:24:20 GMT -5
I am excited about the team and there is a lot of new coming on both sides of the ball. I don't expect huge developments and from a defensive perspective going to 3 - 4 is going to take some time. I know many hybrid D's are out there but until I see what the coached know I have to assume its going to have many bumps in putting the D together. Who knows maybe the O bails out the D this year. 35 points a game! I can dream right? As long as you don't actually believe it, then...sure. Our offense didn't even score HALF that last year with 36 year-old Eli. I'm not sure 37 year-old Eli is suddenly going to double last year's production. At this point, ONE 35-point game would be a significant improvement
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2018 5:30:20 GMT -5
3-4, 4-3 ... basically moot in today’s league. It is a big change in that it is a Dcs new system. But it being a 3-4 is not a big deal. The Parcells 3-4 no longer exists and the “planet theory” requirements for your down linemen aren’t the be all end all anymore. This was a subject that had been beaten to death on the old board...the short answer is that thinking of things in terms of rigid 3-4/4-3 systems of the past no longer applies in today’s league. Read this article - ignore the stuff about IDP, the rest is highly valuable and should get people out of this way of thinking that the 3-4 is the same thing it was 30 years ago: subscribers.footballguys.com/2009/09bramel_idpguide.phpI don’t think there is a single team that runs a pure 2 gapping 3-4 anymore or that there has been for many years now.
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Post by JoeBigBlue on Jul 7, 2018 7:00:32 GMT -5
Regardless of the scheme I'd like to see the Giants defense remember how to tackle.
For the last few years every time a guy is running with the ball here comes a Giants defender, and he slips right off. Here comes another; nope he's on the ground too. After 12-14 yards, here comes 3-4 guys all jumping on the RB, finally bringing him down after another 4 yards.
If other teams RB's can stop coating themselves in teflon before games, that would be great.
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Post by Roswell on Jul 7, 2018 8:06:54 GMT -5
I know I'm in the minority, but I'm excited about the new defense based on the aggressive nature the DC brings.
I expect to see our defense lining up in multiple formations, and it appears that we will see much more blitzing from the safeties.
Of course it's up to the coaches to make sure we have the personnel that suits this defense, and given we are a win now team as Gumby said, you would assume this has been taken into account.
Here's a clip of Zona's defense from last year:
I'm in this boat. Bring um. Bring from all different directions. Dictate to the opposing offense. Like the "wise" man once said...."Let's go around like a bunch of crazed dogs and have some fun." Actually haven't looked forward to a Giant's season like this in a long time. New O, aggressive D, and thanks to TEM for the countdown in his sig - gets my blood pumpin'. PS Apologies. I messed up this thread with a triple post. I guess I'm learning the new Roseyboard.
- Post fixed.
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Post by TEM on Jul 7, 2018 8:20:13 GMT -5
Wasn't there a rumor that when this guy was brought in that he might play some kind of hybrid 3-4 / 4-3 ? Why does a team need to be one or the other? If you start a game in the 3-4 and get picked apart the first 2 drives why can't they flip it? Even if it doesn't work I just hope these new coaches actually make some in game adjustments because I don't think I've seen one from the Giants coaching staff in 15 years. The Key word is rumor. It is the same as I think they will be good. I hope this works out. It is all assumptions. to ease our uneasy feelings. . I get what you are saying.
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Post by TEM on Jul 7, 2018 8:21:49 GMT -5
Dunno. Don't those kind of transitions take some time? How much time do we have? We're very much in win now mode despite our record last year. I agree. It is one of those things. All the pieces of the puzzle are not assembled and hope it can be.
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Post by TEM on Jul 7, 2018 8:35:59 GMT -5
Well, Snacks was pretty much the best 3-4 nose tackle when he was with the Jets so he should be set. Everyone else other than the rookies seems to be playing new positions like Vernon as a LB. Snack is still a ? NT is like a QB. It is not like you can pick up where you left off. Playing DT for 2 seasons is a step down position . Moving back is not NT is not pick it up where you left off discipline. Do you think Terrelle Pryor could transition back into QB as easily as you believe Snacks can go back into the NT position? He was a great DT because it a much easier position to play. When snacks rotates out or gets injured . What then? Run up the gut first play. That is what I would do,
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Post by TEM on Jul 7, 2018 8:49:00 GMT -5
3-4, 4-3 ... basically moot in today’s league. It is a big change in that it is a Dcs new system. But it being a 3-4 is not a big deal. The Parcells 3-4 no longer exists and the “planet theory” requirements for your down linemen aren’t the be all end all anymore. This was a subject that had been beaten to death on the old board...the short answer is that thinking of things in terms of rigid 3-4/4-3 systems of the past no longer applies in today’s league. Read this article - ignore the stuff about IDP, the rest is highly valuable and should get people out of this way of thinking that the 3-4 is the same thing it was 30 years ago: subscribers.footballguys.com/2009/09bramel_idpguide.phpI don’t think there is a single team that runs a pure 2 gapping 3-4 anymore or that there has been for many years now. Is all that has been said is we are going to run a 3-4 base. Defense . I believe this to be true. All the D-line and LB moves , are all moves that were made for a 3-4 not a 4-3 . Not one pure 4-3 DE was signed or drafted. If they change it up to a Nickel or Dime for on play a series . That is just , saying see it is not a pure 3-4. At this point the way I see it. We can not run a 3-4 or 4-3 pieces for both and not any full pieces for either.
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Post by TEM on Jul 7, 2018 8:56:50 GMT -5
Regardless of the scheme I'd like to see the Giants defense remember how to tackle. For the last few years every time a guy is running with the ball here comes a Giants defender, and he slips right off. Here comes another; nope he's on the ground too. After 12-14 yards, here comes 3-4 guys all jumping on the RB, finally bringing him down after another 4 yards. If other teams RB's can stop coating themselves in teflon before games, that would be great. It seems outside the D-line, Castilla and Collins were the only 2 pure hitters.
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Post by Roosevelt on Jul 7, 2018 8:57:06 GMT -5
I know I'm in the minority, but I'm excited about the new defense based on the aggressive nature the DC brings.
I expect to see our defense lining up in multiple formations, and it appears that we will see much more blitzing from the safeties.
Of course it's up to the coaches to make sure we have the personnel that suits this defense, and given we are a win now team as Gumby said, you would assume this has been taken into account.
Here's a clip of Zona's defense from last year:
The blitzing sounds great, but with this secondary they will need to get to the QB immediately because 1 on 1 coverage is going to be exploited all day against them.
Just 2 seasons ago, the Giants secondary was the best this franchise has ever fielded.
Granted we lost DRC, but Apple has made a positive impression thus far. Jenkins, Apple, Collins can be very good. Adams played well 2 years ago as well, and he's in the mix this year as well.
I think the defense will be a pleasant surprise this season.
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Post by jimmieray on Jul 7, 2018 8:59:00 GMT -5
Well, Snacks was pretty much the best 3-4 nose tackle when he was with the Jets so he should be set. Everyone else other than the rookies seems to be playing new positions like Vernon as a LB. Snack is still a ? NT is like a QB. It is not like you can pick up where you left off. Playing DT for 2 seasons is a step down position . Moving back is not NT is not pick it up where you left off discipline. Do you think Terrelle Pryor could transition back into QB as easily as you believe Snacks can go back into the NT position? He was a great DT because it a much easier position to play. As discussed in previous threads, and mentioned by others, Snacks should be the least of the concerns. I'm not even sure who the starting DEs are slated to be, or whether they possess both run stopping ability and decent speed for the pass rush. I don't think Tomlinson has ever played outside? I was looking at a proposed depth chart for this upcoming season, and it had Moss and Okwara listed at LB - pretty sure they have not been given coverage assignments, before? Vernon, we're just assuming he can excel at LB, but what prof is there?
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Post by jimmieray on Jul 7, 2018 9:04:52 GMT -5
3-4, 4-3 ... basically moot in today’s league. It is a big change in that it is a Dcs new system. But it being a 3-4 is not a big deal. The Parcells 3-4 no longer exists and the “planet theory” requirements for your down linemen aren’t the be all end all anymore. This was a subject that had been beaten to death on the old board...the short answer is that thinking of things in terms of rigid 3-4/4-3 systems of the past no longer applies in today’s league. Read this article - ignore the stuff about IDP, the rest is highly valuable and should get people out of this way of thinking that the 3-4 is the same thing it was 30 years ago: subscribers.footballguys.com/2009/09bramel_idpguide.phpI don’t think there is a single team that runs a pure 2 gapping 3-4 anymore or that there has been for many years now. This has been debated and good points made - but what an established team can do, and what a team with a new system, coaches, players, and quite a few playing certain positions or schemes for the first time... what happens during hurry up offense or when substitutes need to be brought in? It seems there as to be a base, simplified defense, at least for the start of the season.
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Post by Roosevelt on Jul 7, 2018 9:06:00 GMT -5
3-4, 4-3 ... basically moot in today’s league. It is a big change in that it is a Dcs new system. But it being a 3-4 is not a big deal. The Parcells 3-4 no longer exists and the “planet theory” requirements for your down linemen aren’t the be all end all anymore. This was a subject that had been beaten to death on the old board...the short answer is that thinking of things in terms of rigid 3-4/4-3 systems of the past no longer applies in today’s league. Read this article - ignore the stuff about IDP, the rest is highly valuable and should get people out of this way of thinking that the 3-4 is the same thing it was 30 years ago: subscribers.footballguys.com/2009/09bramel_idpguide.phpI don’t think there is a single team that runs a pure 2 gapping 3-4 anymore or that there has been for many years now. Is all that has been said is we are going to run a 3-4 base. Defense . I believe this to be true. All the D-line and LB moves , are all moves that were made for a 3-4 not a 4-3 . Not one pure 4-3 DE was signed or drafted. If they change it up to a Nickel or Dime for on play a series . That is just , saying see it is not a pure 3-4. At this point the way I see it. We can not run a 3-4 or 4-3 pieces for both and not any full pieces for either.
The way I see it is this defense adds versatility to what we can do. Our DE basically goes from playing with his hand down to playing up.
Vernon is a key guy no doubt.
“He’s a guy that can rush from different angles, a guy that you can move around and put in different matchups, and he’s embraced everything that we’ve done to this point. I’ve loved working with him, and I think he’s making some great progress, not just in this scheme, but I think as I’ve looked at him as a player, he’s sharpening his tools right now.”
- Giants DC Bettcher
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Post by TEM on Jul 7, 2018 9:12:31 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong . I want to be utterly wrong in everything I stated. I just do not see it as easy as a transition as some think it is.
There is the other side of me having faith it the new staff. They are the experts and know way better then I do on needs. I can only go by what I perceive. I worried about: the up the gut running, pass rush, coverage.
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Jaydub
Special Teams
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Post by Jaydub on Jul 7, 2018 9:15:12 GMT -5
I was not all that thrilled with the news that Betcher was bringing in elements of a 3-4, hybrid or not. Personnel in a 3-4 is by far the most important aspect, and the Giants have very little in terms of what most people would consider to be a good fit for a 3-4. Hell, they couldn't get much out of this group running a 4-3. I'm not expecting much from this defense this season.
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Post by JoeBigBlue on Jul 7, 2018 9:16:37 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong . I want to be utterly wrong in everything I stated. I just do not see it as easy as a transition as some think it is. There is the other side of me having faith it the new staff. They are the experts and know way better then I do on needs. I can only by what I perceive. I worried about: the up the gut running, pass rush, coverage. We'll see what happens. But we better pray Apple and Jenkins get their shit together otherwise they are gonna get torched.
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Post by jimmieray on Jul 7, 2018 9:25:31 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong . I want to be utterly wrong in everything I stated. I just do not see it as easy as a transition as some think it is. There is the other side of me having faith it the new staff. They are the experts and know way better then I do on needs. I can only by what I perceive. I worried about: the up the gut running, pass rush, coverage. We'll see what happens. But we better pray Apple and Jenkins get their shit together otherwise they are gonna get torched. LOL, I didn't even get to the safety position, no less CBs - with all the question marks in the front 7.
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Post by TEM on Jul 7, 2018 9:27:00 GMT -5
Is all that has been said is we are going to run a 3-4 base. Defense . I believe this to be true. All the D-line and LB moves , are all moves that were made for a 3-4 not a 4-3 . Not one pure 4-3 DE was signed or drafted. If they change it up to a Nickel or Dime for on play a series . That is just , saying see it is not a pure 3-4. At this point the way I see it. We can not run a 3-4 or 4-3 pieces for both and not any full pieces for either.
The way I see it is this defense adds versatility to what we can do. Our DE basically goes from playing with his hand down to playing up.
Vernon is a key guy no doubt.
“He’s a guy that can rush from different angles, a guy that you can move around and put in different matchups, and he’s embraced everything that we’ve done to this point. I’ve loved working with him, and I think he’s making some great progress, not just in this scheme, but I think as I’ve looked at him as a player, he’s sharpening his tools right now.”
- Giants DC Bettcher
I agree but I just do see how taking his hand off the ground will change him from being pressure pass rusher to a sack producer. As it stands we do not have a pure sack pass rusher. JPP was it and he was in decline.
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Post by jimmieray on Jul 7, 2018 9:38:42 GMT -5
The way I see it is this defense adds versatility to what we can do. Our DE basically goes from playing with his hand down to playing up.
Vernon is a key guy no doubt.
“He’s a guy that can rush from different angles, a guy that you can move around and put in different matchups, and he’s embraced everything that we’ve done to this point. I’ve loved working with him, and I think he’s making some great progress, not just in this scheme, but I think as I’ve looked at him as a player, he’s sharpening his tools right now.”
- Giants DC Bettcher
I agree but I just do see how taking his hand off the ground will change him from being pressure pass rusher to a sack producer. As it stands we do not have a pure sack pass rusher. JPP was it and he was in decline. Hopefully, he'll see more gaps and have a bit of head of steam. He's really one of the few that should benefit from these changes.
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Post by GameTime on Jul 7, 2018 10:03:00 GMT -5
3-4 or 4-3 the defensive personnel they have is questionable regardless. DL/LBs/and DBs across the board have many question marks.
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Post by TEM on Jul 7, 2018 10:04:57 GMT -5
I agree but I just do see how taking his hand off the ground will change him from being pressure pass rusher to a sack producer. As it stands we do not have a pure sack pass rusher. JPP was it and he was in decline. Hopefully, he'll see more gaps and have a bit of head of steam. He's really one of the few that should benefit from these changes. you could very well could be right . I have to see it first.
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