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Post by Morehead State on Jul 10, 2018 16:18:32 GMT -5
This kind of thing will not be happening here. There are other MB's to spew unpleasantness. If you want to have good conversations, even with some good natured sarcasm...we are all for it.
Constant unpleasantness and name calling?........no sir.
Name calling? Please re-read the thread, thanks. "So. are you that ridiculously stupid?"
I would have been banned on the old boards for that. We aren't that kind of board. we are just going to remind everyone that we want to be a civil board. We are going to be nice....until..well you know.
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Post by TEM on Jul 10, 2018 17:16:52 GMT -5
He improved in the second half last season. I think he will be just fine at RG. No one has dethroned him so far. He might have improved a bit from his first half production but he really couldn't get any worse at that point. I want to see how he does in the pre-season and how he holds up when he needs to hold his block for more than 2 seconds. All I know is having him move from LT to RT is already a plus since he's no longer on Eli's blind side. Typo RT |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 17:19:04 GMT -5
He might have improved a bit from his first half production but he really couldn't get any worse at that point. I want to see how he does in the pre-season and how he holds up when he needs to hold his block for more than 2 seconds. All I know is having him move from LT to RT is already a plus since he's no longer on Eli's blind side. Typo RT yes I know. I don’t debate typos. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 17:20:11 GMT -5
Name calling? Please re-read the thread, thanks. "So. are you that ridiculously stupid?"
I would have been banned on the old boards for that. We aren't that kind of board. we are just going to remind everyone that we want to be a civil board. We are going to be nice....until..well you know.
again, read the thread and replies first, thanks. |
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Post by TEM on Jul 10, 2018 17:26:39 GMT -5
What about pulling and trapping etc. That’s not blocking just one guy or the guy in front of you. Your ability to not understand the concept of playing together is mind boggling. Online chemistry is the most important aspect of good consistent online play. Does it breakdown? Of course it does but the units that get this concept and play together are the most successful units. You're still blocking the guy in front of you. Stunts, trapping and all the other stuff ultimately requires the lineman to block his man. That is the single most IMPORTANT determining factor. What's mind boggling is how you completely disregard the importance of blocking. Do you want 5 Bobby Harts who are on the same page on every play or 5 talented OL? Zone blocking schemes are a bit more complex then block the guy in front of you. Each player needs to know what their and the other 2 next to him assignments are. It is more of a choreography than the simplistic portrayal of blocking who is in front of you. As you see it as. |
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Post by TEM on Jul 10, 2018 17:29:26 GMT -5
He improved in the second half last season. I think he will be just fine at RG. No one has dethroned him so far. He might have improved a bit from his first half production but he really couldn't get any worse at that point. I want to see how he does in the pre-season and how he holds up when he needs to hold his block for more than 2 seconds. All I know is having him move from LT to RT is already a plus since he's no longer on Eli's blind side. It is also a plus because he can be taught how to play an unfamiliar position from the ground up. That may be a way to purge his bad habits and poor technique. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 17:32:56 GMT -5
You're still blocking the guy in front of you. Stunts, trapping and all the other stuff ultimately requires the lineman to block his man. That is the single most IMPORTANT determining factor. What's mind boggling is how you completely disregard the importance of blocking. Do you want 5 Bobby Harts who are on the same page on every play or 5 talented OL? Zone blocking schemes are a bit more complex then block the guy infront of you. Each player needs to know what their and the other 2 next to him assignments are. It is more of a choreography then the simplistic portrayal of blocking who is in front of you see it as. my point was it still is blocking. Knowing what the other guy next to you is doing is not as important as the actual engagement of blocking. It’s not even close IMO. A high schooler can understand schemes and memorize what the guy next to him needs to do. blocking is far more important. The combination of the two is talent. Understanding the schemes is part of it. |
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Post by TEM on Jul 10, 2018 17:48:35 GMT -5
Zone blocking schemes are a bit more complex then block the guy infront of you. Each player needs to know what their and the other 2 next to him assignments are. It is more of a choreography then the simplistic portrayal of blocking who is in front of you see it as. my point was it still is blocking. Knowing what the other guy next to you is doing is not as important as the actual engagement of blocking. It’s not even close IMO. A high schooler can understand schemes and memorize what the guy next to him needs to do. blocking is far more important. The combination of the two is talent. Understanding the schemes is part of it. The blocking is scripted according to the Defensive formations. It is like an offensive play. If what you are saying does not matter, then the entire Offense should ignore the play book and do what each individule wants. I will run a slant even though the play states I should run a post. That is what it equates to. This is not HS blocking a HS defense , This the pros. Every little thing that you can get the edge from you do. I am not trying to be condesending . What other are telling you is what NFl Offensive lines do. You do not have to agree with it. Don't take my word for it read it for yourself www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2013/5/27/4363750/zone-blocking-running-football-breakdown-highlights-analysis-diagram |
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 10, 2018 18:28:29 GMT -5
"So. are you that ridiculously stupid?"
I would have been banned on the old boards for that. We aren't that kind of board. we are just going to remind everyone that we want to be a civil board. We are going to be nice....until..well you know.
again, read the thread and replies first, thanks. You are missing the point. My mission here is to inform my fellow posters what is and what isn't acceptable. I'm asking for all of your help on this because it's important to most of us that these kinds of exchanges are nipped in the bud.
It's up to you as to whether you want to cooperate. Your comments several weeks ago suggesting you will say anything you want puts you on our radar.
I truly want all of you included in our boards. I don't want any poster excluded here. Again..... I'm asking for your help. My frankness with you is a good faith display of respect.
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Post by Roosevelt on Jul 10, 2018 19:09:12 GMT -5
Zone blocking schemes are a bit more complex then block the guy infront of you. Each player needs to know what their and the other 2 next to him assignments are. It is more of a choreography then the simplistic portrayal of blocking who is in front of you see it as. my point was it still is blocking. Knowing what the other guy next to you is doing is not as important as the actual engagement of blocking. It’s not even close IMO. A high schooler can understand schemes and memorize what the guy next to him needs to do. blocking is far more important. The combination of the two is talent. Understanding the schemes is part of it.
You are missing the value of having trust in the guys next to you. Knowing you can count on your teammates to be where they are supposed to based on reading the defense is vital to success. I'm not sure why you are unable to grasp that.
There is no different with the linemen than there is with Eli and his wideouts being on the same page.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 19:52:01 GMT -5
There's more to run blocking and pass blocking than just teeing off on the man in front of you. This is where everyone understanding the assignments of the man next to him, on both sides, and what THEY expect YOU to do, is critical. This is being on the same page. On run blocking you might blow straight at your man, or you might want to drive him left or right, depending on the line asignments of the other guys next to you. Then, there are blocks where two men will criss-cross and hit the other guys man... it becomes important to know who id=s going to fire off first. In pass blocking you might want to block him straight on, or you might want to block him off to your left or to your right... where the guy next to you is blocking his man to becomes important, again, especially to give passing lanes to the QB where he expects to need to see an opening between his blockers, and not bodies in front of him. ALL of this is 'being on the same page'. Individual skills mean nothing if you aren't blocking your man the way the coaches drew it up. Then, your footwork is what enables you to get into the right position to block your man into the position you want/need. This is where Flowers is horrible. Often times the OL comes to the line with their blocking assignments and the defense is set in a way that makes your blocking assignment not ideal. This is where the center. once he sees their set-up, must call audibles to reassign their blocks, and everyone, again, needs to be coordinated to make it work. Great post. I have a feeling you're wasting your time though. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 20:02:57 GMT -5
my point was it still is blocking. Knowing what the other guy next to you is doing is not as important as the actual engagement of blocking. It’s not even close IMO. A high schooler can understand schemes and memorize what the guy next to him needs to do. blocking is far more important. The combination of the two is talent. Understanding the schemes is part of it.
You are missing the value of having trust in the guys next to you. Knowing you can count on your teammates to be where they are supposed to based on reading the defense is vital to success. I'm not sure why you are unable to grasp that.
There is no different with the linemen than there is with Eli and his wideouts being on the same page.
as an admin I would think you hold yourself to a higher standard instead of the condensending tone. Not once did I say trusting your teammates and understanding schemes is not important. Of course it is. The only difference is I put more value in individual talent then those who prefer someone who is not talented but is a great teammate and understands schemes. |
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 10, 2018 20:03:41 GMT -5
There's more to run blocking and pass blocking than just teeing off on the man in front of you. This is where everyone understanding the assignments of the man next to him, on both sides, and what THEY expect YOU to do, is critical. This is being on the same page. On run blocking you might blow straight at your man, or you might want to drive him left or right, depending on the line asignments of the other guys next to you. Then, there are blocks where two men will criss-cross and hit the other guys man... it becomes important to know who id=s going to fire off first. In pass blocking you might want to block him straight on, or you might want to block him off to your left or to your right... where the guy next to you is blocking his man to becomes important, again, especially to give passing lanes to the QB where he expects to need to see an opening between his blockers, and not bodies in front of him. ALL of this is 'being on the same page'. Individual skills mean nothing if you aren't blocking your man the way the coaches drew it up. Then, your footwork is what enables you to get into the right position to block your man into the position you want/need. This is where Flowers is horrible. Often times the OL comes to the line with their blocking assignments and the defense is set in a way that makes your blocking assignment not ideal. This is where the center. once he sees their set-up, must call audibles to reassign their blocks, and everyone, again, needs to be coordinated to make it work. Great post. I have a feeling you're wasting your time though. So much of that is coaching. Zim nailed it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 20:04:17 GMT -5
6 Points of Emphasis for Your First O-Line Meeting
By Justin Iske
Offensive Line Coach
Southwestern Oklahoma State University
Introduction:
The first meeting of the season is an exciting time for both coaches and players. As a coach, it is easy to simply jump right into the nuts and bolts of installing the offense. However, we think that it is very important to cover some philosophical things first. Here is an inside look at what I teach during those initial meetings to make sure the groundwork is set for a successful season.
#1 Set Expectations:
Be Coachable: Do things the way that we tell you do them. All five guys must be on the same page or we are all in trouble. If you want to do your own thing, you cannot play for us.
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Football 101 focuses on the offensive side of the football. Scott Mitchell focuses on pass protection and how important it is for the offensive line, the tight ends and running backs are on the same page in order to protect the quarterback. It is all interchangeable.
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Alex Mack, one of the best centers in football for his era: Then there's the whole deal with snapping the ball, communicating with the quarterback, and making sure the exchange goes smoothly. Because I'm the one organizing my guys, a lot of what I do is making sure I have the line and the quarterback on the same page in terms of protection. It's really important for the whole O-line to know what your quarterback is doing so they can protect him on those pass plays.
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Jason Peters: It's all about being on the same page
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Herm Edwards: ASU football working on fundamentals on the offensive line
Coach Herm Edwards wants heavily involved wide receivers and an offensive line that can take over any game. “It’s really important to me,” junior offensive lineman Cohl Cabral said. “You’ve got to have a voice in the room, a voice on the team and Sam had a big role last year with being a leader for the whole team. It’s a big shoe to fill so it’s just doing what you can to get as many people in the right mindset. If enough guys make the right choices, they get everyone on the same page.”
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Orlando Franklin: "I think it’s very important for the offensive line to build camaraderie and play together. We have to start working on that right here, right now. There is no larger group out there on the field at one time. We all know if one person doesn't do his job, it’s easy for the whole offense to mess up. So it is important for us all to get on the same page, go out and work. No excuses. Don’t worry about anyone else. Just go out there, work, be accountable for the man next to you and all four other men on the offensive line.”
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DJ Fluker: “We just need to get comfortable as an offensive line and have the whole offense get on the same page when it comes (to blocking)."
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I could go on forever but it's getting tedious.
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 10, 2018 20:06:44 GMT -5
You are missing the value of having trust in the guys next to you. Knowing you can count on your teammates to be where they are supposed to based on reading the defense is vital to success. I'm not sure why you are unable to grasp that.
There is no different with the linemen than there is with Eli and his wideouts being on the same page.
as an admin I would think you hold yourself to a higher standard instead of taking petty cheap shots. Not once did I say trusting your teammates and understanding schemes is not important. Of course it is. The only difference is I put more value in individual talent then those who prefer someone who is not talented but is a great teammate and understands schemes. Talent is definitely the most important factor, but the O line, more than any unit has to play as 1 unit. Again...our O line has lacked coaching more than anything. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 20:09:40 GMT -5
You are missing the value of having trust in the guys next to you. Knowing you can count on your teammates to be where they are supposed to based on reading the defense is vital to success. I'm not sure why you are unable to grasp that. There is no different with the linemen than there is with Eli and his wideouts being on the same page.
as an admin I would think you hold yourself to a higher standard instead of the condensending tone. Not once did I say trusting your teammates and understanding schemes is not important. Of course it is. The only difference is I put more value in individual talent then those who prefer someone who is not talented but is a great teammate and understands schemes.Again with the strawman arguments. No one is saying what you're claiming (in multiple posts). Of course you have to be talented. But being "on the same page" is a synergy that is critical to an OL unit functioning well. Look at our 86 OL and our 07 OL. Hell even our 11 OL (which put it together in the playoffs). No one was outstanding but as a cohesive unit they were fantastic. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2018 20:14:45 GMT -5
Quick example. Hart and Flowers have been terrible at their respective jobs the past couple of years. I can assure you they understood who to block and how to block them 95% of the time at minimum with a handful of whiffs. The problem with Hart was not his ability to recognize what the RG was doing or Flowers and his LG. They both flat out SUCKED. They were terrible blockers who could not be trusted yet the staff kept trotting them out there. Had they been blowing assignments left and right then they most likely wouldn’t see the field again considering the QB position would’ve been a revolving door eventually.
Pugh got a nice contract. I’m sure he understands schemes when run blocking. But he got that $$$ because he’s a great blocker.
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Post by TEM on Jul 10, 2018 20:16:37 GMT -5
as an admin I would think you hold yourself to a higher standard instead of taking petty cheap shots. Not once did I say trusting your teammates and understanding schemes is not important. Of course it is. The only difference is I put more value in individual talent then those who prefer someone who is not talented but is a great teammate and understands schemes. Talent is definitely the most important factor, but the O line, more than any unit has to play as 1 unit. Again...our O line has lacked coaching more than anything. I think it lacked leadership as well. I could be wrong. I think Richburg had difficulty conceptualizing what the Defense was showing. His protection calls lacked because of it. |
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Post by Roosevelt on Jul 10, 2018 20:21:56 GMT -5
You are missing the value of having trust in the guys next to you. Knowing you can count on your teammates to be where they are supposed to based on reading the defense is vital to success. I'm not sure why you are unable to grasp that.
There is no different with the linemen than there is with Eli and his wideouts being on the same page.
as an admin I would think you hold yourself to a higher standard instead of taking petty cheap shots. Not once did I say trusting your teammates and understanding schemes is not important. Of course it is. The only difference is I put more value in individual talent then those who prefer someone who is not talented but is a great teammate and understands schemes.
How was that a cheap shot? What exactly did you think being on the same page meant?
And I have no issue if you value talent above all else. For me however, it's depends on the make up of the team, and the other players at that position group.
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 10, 2018 20:22:48 GMT -5
Quick example. Hart and Flowers have been terrible at their respective jobs the past couple of years. I can assure you they understood who to block and how to block them 95% of the time at minimum with a handful of whiffs. The problem with Hart was not his ability to recognize what the RG was doing or Flowers and his LG. They both flat out SUCKED. They were terrible blockers who could not be trusted yet the staff kept trotting them out there. Had they been blowing assignments left and right then they most likely wouldn’t see the field again considering the QB position would’ve been a revolving door eventually. Pugh got a nice contract. I’m sure he understands schemes when run blocking. But he got that $$$ because he’s a great blocker. Pugh was a terrible signing for Arizona. Yet another example of how teams are desperate for O line help. The guy is as ordinary as they come.
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Post by Roosevelt on Jul 10, 2018 20:26:25 GMT -5
Quick example. Hart and Flowers have been terrible at their respective jobs the past couple of years. I can assure you they understood who to block and how to block them 95% of the time at minimum with a handful of whiffs. The problem with Hart was not his ability to recognize what the RG was doing or Flowers and his LG. They both flat out SUCKED. They were terrible blockers who could not be trusted yet the staff kept trotting them out there. Had they been blowing assignments left and right then they most likely wouldn’t see the field again considering the QB position would’ve been a revolving door eventually. Pugh got a nice contract. I’m sure he understands schemes when run blocking. But he got that $$$ because he’s a great blocker.
I don't think any of us can assure anyone what Hart and Flowers understood.
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 10, 2018 20:30:00 GMT -5
Quick example. Hart and Flowers have been terrible at their respective jobs the past couple of years. I can assure you they understood who to block and how to block them 95% of the time at minimum with a handful of whiffs. The problem with Hart was not his ability to recognize what the RG was doing or Flowers and his LG. They both flat out SUCKED. They were terrible blockers who could not be trusted yet the staff kept trotting them out there. Had they been blowing assignments left and right then they most likely wouldn’t see the field again considering the QB position would’ve been a revolving door eventually. Pugh got a nice contract. I’m sure he understands schemes when run blocking. But he got that $$$ because he’s a great blocker.
I don't think any of us can assure anyone what Hart and Flowers understood.
I remember YA complaining that they looked lost and that no one seemed to know what they were doing.
I'm sorry...that sounds like coaching to me.
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Post by Roosevelt on Jul 10, 2018 20:40:30 GMT -5
I don't think any of us can assure anyone what Hart and Flowers understood.
I remember YA complaining that they looked lost and that no one seemed to know what they were doing.
I'm sorry...that sounds like coaching to me.
That doesn't surprise me at all.
When you have an Oline group that isn't close, you'd have to be pretty clueless not to realize you have a problem. And that's on Reese too IMO.
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Post by TEM on Jul 10, 2018 21:15:58 GMT -5
Quick example. Hart and Flowers have been terrible at their respective jobs the past couple of years. I can assure you they understood who to block and how to block them 95% of the time at minimum with a handful of whiffs. The problem with Hart was not his ability to recognize what the RG was doing or Flowers and his LG. They both flat out SUCKED. They were terrible blockers who could not be trusted yet the staff kept trotting them out there. Had they been blowing assignments left and right then they most likely wouldn’t see the field again considering the QB position would’ve been a revolving door eventually. Pugh got a nice contract. I’m sure he understands schemes when run blocking. But he got that $$$ because he’s a great blocker. Pugh was a terrible signing for Arizona. Yet another example of how teams are desperate for O line help. The guy is as ordinary as they come.
He plays in 8 game season for 16 game season pay. His mama did not raise a dummy.  |
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Post by GameTime on Jul 10, 2018 22:00:36 GMT -5
OK...so lets sum it up...
a consistenty good and effective oline needs:
talent
chemistry
good coaching
/thread...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2018 8:11:24 GMT -5
This discussion was on the other board a few weeks ago and it seems the same poster was arguing with everyone claim that being on the same page is over rated...
I was surprised to read that and even more surprised when other posters agreed with them...
I'm in the camp that besides talent a group needs to be all on the same page and understand how to block the stunts...
This isn't HS or even college ball.... These guys are all great at what they bring to the field!!
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 11, 2018 8:15:28 GMT -5
I'm going to be honest...The hype over a rookie from UTEP, who has never had to block a guy like he will see week 1, in Calais Campbell.....is a tad over the top in my view.
It takes a while for a rookie to acclimate to the NFL on the O line. Maybe he'll do it well. But let's not suggest he's John Hannah quite yet.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2018 10:18:10 GMT -5
Quick example. Hart and Flowers have been terrible at their respective jobs the past couple of years. I can assure you they understood who to block and how to block them 95% of the time at minimum with a handful of whiffs. The problem with Hart was not his ability to recognize what the RG was doing or Flowers and his LG. They both flat out SUCKED. They were terrible blockers who could not be trusted yet the staff kept trotting them out there. Had they been blowing assignments left and right then they most likely wouldn’t see the field again considering the QB position would’ve been a revolving door eventually. Pugh got a nice contract. I’m sure he understands schemes when run blocking. But he got that $$$ because he’s a great blocker. Speaking of Pugh and Flowers.... "We’re going to look forward to getting better at as a unit. I think all five of us have to come together–it can’t just be me and Ereck–it’s got to be all five guys up front; we’re all on the same page and firing on all cylinders.” - Justin Pugh |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2018 10:46:08 GMT -5
Quick example. Hart and Flowers have been terrible at their respective jobs the past couple of years. I can assure you they understood who to block and how to block them 95% of the time at minimum with a handful of whiffs. The problem with Hart was not his ability to recognize what the RG was doing or Flowers and his LG. They both flat out SUCKED. They were terrible blockers who could not be trusted yet the staff kept trotting them out there. Had they been blowing assignments left and right then they most likely wouldn’t see the field again considering the QB position would’ve been a revolving door eventually. Pugh got a nice contract. I’m sure he understands schemes when run blocking. But he got that $$$ because he’s a great blocker. Speaking of Pugh and Flowers.... "We’re going to look forward to getting better at as a unit. I think all five of us have to come together–it can’t just be me and Ereck–it’s got to be all five guys up front; we’re all on the same page and firing on all cylinders.” - Justin Pugh Why did Pugh get a nice contract while Flowers is fighting for a starting job? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2018 11:34:06 GMT -5
Speaking of Pugh and Flowers.... "We’re going to look forward to getting better at as a unit. I think all five of us have to come together–it can’t just be me and Ereck–it’s got to be all five guys up front; we’re all on the same page and firing on all cylinders.” - Justin Pugh Why did Pugh get a nice contract while Flowers is fighting for a starting job? Thankfully that mistake wasn't done by the Giants!!! |
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