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Post by Morehead State on Aug 20, 2018 12:17:27 GMT -5
No one has decided he can't be an NFL starting QB. Our point is that they could not have decided that he was when they picked Barkley. The point I took issue with was with his lack of comfort in the pocket. You’re discussing something entirely unrelated and linking it to me. Well if I did...I apologize. My point however is that they couldn't possibly have passed on a QB at #2 because they thought Webb could very well be the guy.
They simply could not, and I'm sure still don't, have enough information about the kid.
As far as I'm concerned we passed on a QB because they thought they could get more years out of Eli and wanted to build at other positions. Davis Webb was irrelevant to that decision.
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 20, 2018 12:19:33 GMT -5
No one has decided he can't be an NFL starting QB. Our point is that they could not have decided that he was when they picked Barkley. I agree, there was simply too little info on him at the NFL level to make an assessment. You and I disagree a bit in that you feel they were so enamored with Barkley that they didn't seriously consider the QBs, I think they found them all flawed enough to justify picking the RB, when most factors seemed to scream pick a QB (at least from the outside looking in) (relatively minor). Personally, like you, I was hoping we'd get Mayfield. After that, I liked Nelson/Chubb/Trade down, but getting Barkley and Hernandez portends to be a really nice 2 pick combo in my opinion. I really liked the draft this year once it all unfolded. Dave Gettleman said publicly that he told his guys when our turn came to draft to NOT accept any calls for possible trades.
That tells me they were simply in love with Barkley and didn't care what anyone else had to offer.
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Post by Roswell on Aug 20, 2018 12:19:33 GMT -5
As you know, sometimes guys walk in with confidence and some guys develop it over time. Two offensive coordinators, two head coaches, two different playbooks in his two seasons. Cut the guy some slack. I’m not sure what you mean by “cut the guy some slack” ... I should refrain from criticizing him or pointing out why I am not yet sold that he is the next “guy”? No. You can think what you want. My issue was with you stating that Webb is uncomfortable in the pocket like you have any idea whether or not a guy who went 14 for 20 for 140 yards in one half without his two best offensive weapons is comfortable. I’m not sold on the guy either. Just expressing my opinion on how it’s impossible to know his comfort level from a persons living room.
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 20, 2018 12:21:03 GMT -5
I’m not sure what you mean by “cut the guy some slack” ... I should refrain from criticizing him or pointing out why I am not yet sold that he is the next “guy”? No. You can think what you want. My issue was with you stating that Webb is uncomfortable in the pocket like you have any idea whether or not a guy who went 14 for 20 for 140 yards in one half without his two best offensive weapons is comfortable. I’m not sold on the guy either. Just expressing my opinion on how it’s impossible to know his comfort level from a persons living room. Understand? I didn't think he looked comfortable at all either. But that is pretty common among young QB's, especially ones who have played as little as Webb.
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Post by Roswell on Aug 20, 2018 12:22:13 GMT -5
The point I took issue with was with his lack of comfort in the pocket. You’re discussing something entirely unrelated and linking it to me. Well if I did...I apologize. My point however is that they couldn't possibly have passed on a QB at #2 because they thought Webb could very well be the guy.
They simply could not, and I'm sure still don't, have enough information about the kid.
As far as I'm concerned we passed on a QB because they thought they could get more years out of Eli and wanted to build at other positions. Davis Webb was irrelevant to that decision.
I agree. They even said as much.
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Post by Roswell on Aug 20, 2018 12:29:29 GMT -5
No. You can think what you want. My issue was with you stating that Webb is uncomfortable in the pocket like you have any idea whether or not a guy who went 14 for 20 for 140 yards in one half without his two best offensive weapons is comfortable. I’m not sold on the guy either. Just expressing my opinion on how it’s impossible to know his comfort level from a persons living room. Understand? I didn't think he looked comfortable at all either. But that is pretty common among young QB's, especially ones who have played as little as Webb. I thought he handled himself pretty well in Detroit. What did he do that made him look uncomfortable?
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 20, 2018 12:32:50 GMT -5
I didn't think he looked comfortable at all either. But that is pretty common among young QB's, especially ones who have played as little as Webb. I thought he handled himself pretty well in Detroit. What did he do that made him look uncomfortable? That's a hard question to answer. He just looked like a guy not relaxed in there. But he did look a lot better this time. And I was encouraged by that.
Having said that I didn't see anything that stood out. I did like the two nice throws downfield. Right now he just looks like he could be a good back up. I would love to be wrong because he works his butt off and I root for him.
But I can't say that I know what he'll become.
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Post by Roswell on Aug 20, 2018 12:37:23 GMT -5
I thought he handled himself pretty well in Detroit. What did he do that made him look uncomfortable? That's a hard question to answer. He just looked like a guy not relaxed in there. But he did look a lot better this time. And I was encouraged by that.
Having said that I didn't see anything that stood out. I did like the two nice throws downfield. Right now he just looks like he could be a good back up. I would love to be wrong because he works his butt off and I root for him.
But I can't say that I know what he'll become.
Unrelated to this thread, sometimes I think that there are people on message boards that take a stance on a draft pick and in order to feel vindicated about that stance, will root against players on the team just so they can feel they were right. That is a thought process I will never understand.
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Post by Roosevelt on Aug 20, 2018 12:41:14 GMT -5
No one has decided he can't be an NFL starting QB. Our point is that they could not have decided that he was when they picked Barkley. I agree, there was simply too little info on him at the NFL level to make an assessment. You and I disagree a bit in that you feel they were so enamored with Barkley that they didn't seriously consider the QBs, I think they found them all flawed enough to justify picking the RB, when most factors seemed to scream pick a QB (at least from the outside looking in) (relatively minor). Personally, like you, I was hoping we'd get Mayfield. After that, I liked Nelson/Chubb/Trade down, but getting Barkley and Hernandez portends to be a really nice 2 pick combo in my opinion. I really liked the draft this year once it all unfolded.
I simply don't believe the Giants seriously didn't consider drafting a QB at 2. Failure to do so would be beyond negligent given their circumstances.
Besides, it was reported that Mara put the word out back in October for QB's to be closely scouted, which resulted in Marc Ross personally scouting Josh Rosen in CA.
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Post by paperbackwriter on Aug 20, 2018 12:45:26 GMT -5
That's a hard question to answer. He just looked like a guy not relaxed in there. But he did look a lot better this time. And I was encouraged by that.
Having said that I didn't see anything that stood out. I did like the two nice throws downfield. Right now he just looks like he could be a good back up. I would love to be wrong because he works his butt off and I root for him.
But I can't say that I know what he'll become.
Unrelated to this thread, sometimes I think that there are people on message boards that take a stance on a draft pick and in order to feel vindicated about that stance, will root against players on the team just so they can feel they were right. That is a thought process I will never understand.
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Post by Roswell on Aug 20, 2018 12:47:38 GMT -5
I agree, there was simply too little info on him at the NFL level to make an assessment. You and I disagree a bit in that you feel they were so enamored with Barkley that they didn't seriously consider the QBs, I think they found them all flawed enough to justify picking the RB, when most factors seemed to scream pick a QB (at least from the outside looking in) (relatively minor). Personally, like you, I was hoping we'd get Mayfield. After that, I liked Nelson/Chubb/Trade down, but getting Barkley and Hernandez portends to be a really nice 2 pick combo in my opinion. I really liked the draft this year once it all unfolded.
I simply don't believe the Giants seriously didn't consider drafting a QB at 2. Failure to do so would be beyond negligent given their circumstances.
Besides, it was reported that Mara put the word out back in October for QB's to be closely scouted, which resulted in Marc Ross personally scouting Josh Rosen in CA.
Exactly. They weren't sold on these guys as a #2 pick. Right or wrong, that's how they read the situation. They had Manning and still think that given an Oline and a running game, he can still win. So they addressed those spots.
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 20, 2018 12:48:38 GMT -5
That's a hard question to answer. He just looked like a guy not relaxed in there. But he did look a lot better this time. And I was encouraged by that.
Having said that I didn't see anything that stood out. I did like the two nice throws downfield. Right now he just looks like he could be a good back up. I would love to be wrong because he works his butt off and I root for him.
But I can't say that I know what he'll become.
Unrelated to this thread, sometimes I think that there are people on message boards that take a stance on a draft pick and in order to feel vindicated about that stance, will root against players on the team just so they can feel they were right. That is a thought process I will never understand. What i liked about Webb at Cal was his arm strength and his ability to drop the ball over defenders downfield. What I have yet to see in his limited play is his command of the pocket. The rap on him was his decision making. He has made some poor decisions by throwing into coverage or failing to see a defender in good position. Now he's young and he hasn't played much so I'm not alarmed by that. But it is clear so far.
Maybe I'm looking for too much. But my general impression is that he just seems to look like so many other back ups like Trevor Siemian or Brian Hoyer. Nothing that stands out as wrong...just nothing positive of note.
So it's not so much what I see than what I don't see. I don't see anything that makes me think he separates himself from most competent back ups.
You want to be a starter in this league...you have to show something special. At least that's what I think.
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Post by Roosevelt on Aug 20, 2018 12:49:11 GMT -5
That's a hard question to answer. He just looked like a guy not relaxed in there. But he did look a lot better this time. And I was encouraged by that.
Having said that I didn't see anything that stood out. I did like the two nice throws downfield. Right now he just looks like he could be a good back up. I would love to be wrong because he works his butt off and I root for him.
But I can't say that I know what he'll become.
Unrelated to this thread, sometimes I think that there are people on message boards that take a stance on a draft pick and in order to feel vindicated about that stance, will root against players on the team just so they can feel they were right. That is a thought process I will never understand.
Having not read the entire thread, I will say it seems strange to see posts knocking Webb after his performance Friday night.
I don't see how anyone could form an opinion of him based on how little we've seen, but for right now, we should be generally optimistic.
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 20, 2018 12:53:55 GMT -5
Unrelated to this thread, sometimes I think that there are people on message boards that take a stance on a draft pick and in order to feel vindicated about that stance, will root against players on the team just so they can feel they were right. That is a thought process I will never understand.
Having not read the entire thread, I will say it seems strange to see posts knocking Webb after his performance Friday night.
I don't see how anyone could form an opinion of him based on how little we've seen, but for right now, we should be generally optimistic. I don't think anyone has drawn conclusions from what we've seen so far. I'm just sharing my impressions about what I saw. As I said, I don't know what he'll become in this league. And the point that was made that somehow the FO thought Webb might be the guy and that's why they passed on a QB seems an odd position to me.
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Post by Roswell on Aug 20, 2018 12:58:02 GMT -5
Unrelated to this thread, sometimes I think that there are people on message boards that take a stance on a draft pick and in order to feel vindicated about that stance, will root against players on the team just so they can feel they were right. That is a thought process I will never understand.
Having not read the entire thread, I will say it seems strange to see posts knocking Webb after his performance Friday night.
I don't see how anyone could form an opinion of him based on how little we've seen, but for right now, we should be generally optimistic. I agree. I thought considering that his job was potentially on the line with another poor outing I thought he came up aces. He showed touch, he showed that he has a gun, he ran, he completed big third down conversions. There wasn't a lot not to like from his time in Detroit. Lauletta, and I like Lauletta, was the guy missing the open receivers. If that was Webb, some on this board would've had him cut lol. These guys are in the process of figuring it all out. Even the guys the Giants passed on by taking Barkley are in the same process. We won't know if the Giants were wrong or right for a while.
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Post by Roswell on Aug 20, 2018 13:07:20 GMT -5
Unrelated to this thread, sometimes I think that there are people on message boards that take a stance on a draft pick and in order to feel vindicated about that stance, will root against players on the team just so they can feel they were right. That is a thought process I will never understand. What i liked about Webb at Cal was his arm strength and his ability to drop the ball over defenders downfield. What I have yet to see in his limited play is his command of the pocket. The rap on him was his decision making. He has made some poor decisions by throwing into coverage or failing to see a defender in good position. Now he's young and he hasn't played much so I'm not alarmed by that. But it is clear so far.
Maybe I'm looking for too much. But my general impression is that he just seems to look like so many other back ups like Trevor Siemian or Brian Hoyer. Nothing that stands out as wrong...just nothing positive of note.
So it's not so much what I see than what I don't see. I don't see anything that makes me think he separates himself from most competent back ups.
You want to be a starter in this league...you have to show something special. At least that's what I think.
For starters, he has a much stronger arm than Trevor Siemian but I get your point. I think his "something special" is his arm strength and also how hard he works. But we will see. He's learning a new system, his third in three years, under a QB whisperer and a two time SB champ. If he doesn't succeed, it won't be because of bad teachers.
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Post by GameTime on Aug 20, 2018 13:08:11 GMT -5
Unrelated to this thread, sometimes I think that there are people on message boards that take a stance on a draft pick and in order to feel vindicated about that stance, will root against players on the team just so they can feel they were right. That is a thought process I will never understand. What i liked about Webb at Cal was his arm strength and his ability to drop the ball over defenders downfield. What I have yet to see in his limited play is his command of the pocket. The rap on him was his decision making. He has made some poor decisions by throwing into coverage or failing to see a defender in good position. Now he's young and he hasn't played much so I'm not alarmed by that. But it is clear so far.
Maybe I'm looking for too much. But my general impression is that he just seems to look like so many other back ups like Trevor Siemian or Brian Hoyer. Nothing that stands out as wrong...just nothing positive of note.
So it's not so much what I see than what I don't see. I don't see anything that makes me think he separates himself from most competent back ups.
You want to be a starter in this league...you have to show something special. At least that's what I think.
college film.... other than personal interviews DG and Shurmur had as much info on Webb (maybe a bit more with 2017 preseason and coaches input) than they did with any other QB they may have wanted to draft. No?
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 20, 2018 13:12:12 GMT -5
What i liked about Webb at Cal was his arm strength and his ability to drop the ball over defenders downfield. What I have yet to see in his limited play is his command of the pocket. The rap on him was his decision making. He has made some poor decisions by throwing into coverage or failing to see a defender in good position. Now he's young and he hasn't played much so I'm not alarmed by that. But it is clear so far.
Maybe I'm looking for too much. But my general impression is that he just seems to look like so many other back ups like Trevor Siemian or Brian Hoyer. Nothing that stands out as wrong...just nothing positive of note.
So it's not so much what I see than what I don't see. I don't see anything that makes me think he separates himself from most competent back ups.
You want to be a starter in this league...you have to show something special. At least that's what I think.
college film.... other than personal interviews they had as much info on Webb (maybe a bit more with 2017 preseason and coaches input) than they did with any other QB they may have wanted to draft. No? But he was a third rounder. Obviously that film wasn't enough to convince any team to pick him high. He's a project. Doesn't mean he wouldn't be a good NFL QB either. But he has a lot of work to do and there is no way anyone knows that he will be a solid NFL starter. Just not enough to go on.
We all hope he will be because that would solve a huge problem for our team in the long term. And his play Friday WAS encouraging.
We just can't know yet. No one can.
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Post by GameTime on Aug 20, 2018 13:16:10 GMT -5
college film.... other than personal interviews they had as much info on Webb (maybe a bit more with 2017 preseason and coaches input) than they did with any other QB they may have wanted to draft. No? But he was a third rounder. Obviously that film wasn't enough to convince any team to pick him high. He's a project. Doesn't mean he wouldn't be a good NFL QB either. But he has a lot of work to do and there is no way anyone knows that he will be a solid NFL starter. Just not enough to go on.
We all hope he will be because that would solve a huge problem for our team in the long term. And his play Friday WAS encouraging.
We just can't know yet. No one can.
I guess my point was that DG and Shurmur supposedly had no idea who Webb was to a degree. I am just stating they have as much info about Webb as they do Darnold for example. Its all out there and they had it before the draft process. As far as him being a 3rd rounder his I get that. His odds of becoming a solid NFL starter are slim. Heck even a high first round pick is a semi long shot to make it.
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 20, 2018 13:18:39 GMT -5
But he was a third rounder. Obviously that film wasn't enough to convince any team to pick him high. He's a project. Doesn't mean he wouldn't be a good NFL QB either. But he has a lot of work to do and there is no way anyone knows that he will be a solid NFL starter. Just not enough to go on.
We all hope he will be because that would solve a huge problem for our team in the long term. And his play Friday WAS encouraging.
We just can't know yet. No one can.
I guess my point was that DG and Shurmur supposedly had no idea who Webb was to a degree. I am just stating they have as much info about Webb as they do Darnold for example. Its all out there and they had it before the draft process. As far as him being a 3rd rounder his I get that. His odds of becoming a solid NFL starter are slim. Heck even a high first round pick is a semi long shot to make it. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Webb.....and i root hard for the kid because he works so hard and has a great attitude, but there is no way they passed on a QB at #2 because they had Davis Webb. Webb had absolutely nothing to do with that decision. That was all about hoping Eli could play for a few more years.
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Post by GameTime on Aug 20, 2018 13:33:13 GMT -5
I guess my point was that DG and Shurmur supposedly had no idea who Webb was to a degree. I am just stating they have as much info about Webb as they do Darnold for example. Its all out there and they had it before the draft process. As far as him being a 3rd rounder his I get that. His odds of becoming a solid NFL starter are slim. Heck even a high first round pick is a semi long shot to make it. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Webb.....and i root hard for the kid because he works so hard and has a great attitude, but there is no way they passed on a QB at #2 because they had Davis Webb. Webb had absolutely nothing to do with that decision. That was all about hoping Eli could play for a few more years.
That makes sense. But the idea of the "had no idea who Webb was" makes no sense to me at all. What ever weight they placed on what they thought of Webb prior to the draft I have no idea.
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Post by Roosevelt on Aug 20, 2018 14:15:24 GMT -5
Having not read the entire thread, I will say it seems strange to see posts knocking Webb after his performance Friday night.
I don't see how anyone could form an opinion of him based on how little we've seen, but for right now, we should be generally optimistic. I don't think anyone has drawn conclusions from what we've seen so far. I'm just sharing my impressions about what I saw. As I said, I don't know what he'll become in this league. And the point that was made that somehow the FO thought Webb might be the guy and that's why they passed on a QB seems an odd position to me.
Yeah I don't believe that as well. Webb was not given the opportunity to play last year so they had nothing to go by.
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 20, 2018 15:34:38 GMT -5
No one...even today..has ANY idea if Davis Webb can be a starting NFL QB. Not the FO, coaching staff or any fans. There is simply not even close to enough info. I have far too much respect for the Giants brain trust to believe they would base any decision about our future QB on the tiny sample size they have of Webb's play.
Do you really believe they looked at film of his play in last season's preseason to draw ANY conclusions of the kid's potential to be a starter in this league?
I find that impossible to believe.
Because it doesn't fit your narrative, yet all these other teams only have the college tapes of these rookie QB's that you think are all high and mighty . You want it both ways. But Webb's "tapes" put him in near the end of the third round. Darnold, Mayfield and Rosen were drafted early in the first round.
And I can't say for sure what any of these guys will do in the NFL. Not sure what the "high and mighty" reference is supposed to be about. All draftees are prospects. There are no guarantees. But I tend to suspect that at least two and probably three of these guys will do well in the league. Darnold has shown great poise and calm in the pocket, which you can't coach. Mayfiled is off the charts good as far as I'm concerned and Rosen is a pure passer without a doubt.
But we shall see.
But the ultimate point is that it seems highly unlikely the FO passed on a QB because they felt Webb had a good chance to be the heir apparent. That's a huge reach as far as I'm concerned. I doubt they know much more about him now as a matter of fact. Kid has a good attitude and works hard and that's all good. But the sampling is so small and what we have seen has been uneven at best.
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Post by nyg9289 on Aug 20, 2018 15:39:15 GMT -5
laugh all you want. You were brutal on the old boards and I see nothing has changed with the new ones. Sorry you hate Webb so much and are still in love with Darnold. Get over it. If you think I “hate” Webb because I am not falling all over myself like a lovestruck teenager based on one awful preseason outing and one good preseason outing, then you are right ... I “hate” Webb. From what I have seen, you have basically been anti-Webb from the start. You slammed him on the old boards and pushed for Darnold. You slammed him after the first preseason game. You were critical of him during the second game; literally everyone was praising him and you were still saying he was getting away with poor throws and showed zero confidence. You're still not giving him much credit for his recent performance. In my view, that's more of a hater than not a hater.
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 20, 2018 15:40:39 GMT -5
I simply don't believe the Giants seriously didn't consider drafting a QB at 2. Failure to do so would be beyond negligent given their circumstances.
Besides, it was reported that Mara put the word out back in October for QB's to be closely scouted, which resulted in Marc Ross personally scouting Josh Rosen in CA.
I agree, my argument becuase it was stated that Webb had nothing to do with the Giants decision to take Barkley is that is wrong. Will Webb be a starter ...will he be great in the NFL who the hell knows,I don't. What I am saying is that the Giants brain trust looked at what they had with Eli and Webb and swayed it against what the options were in the draft and chose to stick with what we have and take Barkley and a good young QB at #4 that might surpass Webb, who knows but as I did say and still contend is that yes the Giants looked at Webb in the determination on whether to take Barkley or a QB or to trade away for picks. In your scenario they would have to have thought Webb was going to be the heir apparent. That makes no sense to me. They still don't have anything close to enough information to support that.
I just don't know where this is coming from.
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Post by Morehead State on Aug 20, 2018 15:42:33 GMT -5
If you think I “hate” Webb because I am not falling all over myself like a lovestruck teenager based on one awful preseason outing and one good preseason outing, then you are right ... I “hate” Webb. From what I have seen, you have basically been anti-Webb from the start. You slammed him on the old boards and pushed for Darnold. You slammed him after the first preseason game. You were critical of him during the second game; literally everyone was praising him and you were still saying he was getting away with poor throws and showed zero confidence. You're still not giving him much credit for his recent performance. In my view, that's more of a hater than not a hater. Why can't folks just offer an opinion without being a hater or homer? Maybe people are just expressing an honest opinion. Ever consider that?
If a guy doesn't like the kids game what's the big deal for God's sake?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2018 16:00:20 GMT -5
From what I have seen, you have basically been anti-Webb from the start. You slammed him on the old boards and pushed for Darnold. You slammed him after the first preseason game. You were critical of him during the second game; literally everyone was praising him and you were still saying he was getting away with poor throws and showed zero confidence. You're still not giving him much credit for his recent performance. In my view, that's more of a hater than not a hater. Who can't folks just offer an opinion without being a hater or homer? Maybe people are just expressing an honest opinion. Ever consider that?
Weren't you one of the first people to start the eli cultist label? The more you post the more i laugh.
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Post by Fletch842 on Aug 20, 2018 16:03:59 GMT -5
Regardless of what anyone thinks of Webb.....and i root hard for the kid because he works so hard and has a great attitude, but there is no way they passed on a QB at #2 because they had Davis Webb. Webb had absolutely nothing to do with that decision. That was all about hoping Eli could play for a few more years.
That makes sense. But the idea of the "had no idea who Webb was" makes no sense to me at all. What ever weight they placed on what they thought of Webb prior to the draft I have no idea. how about if we change the semantics to not enough info to make a proper decision about his future with the franchise. you are right, no idea is a bit strong.
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Post by GameTime on Aug 20, 2018 16:10:07 GMT -5
-The Giants loved Barkely obviously. One of the best projected players in the draft. Also a safer bet to be highly successful in the NFL than any QB was. -They Giants FO had/have just as much film on Webb as they did any prospect in 2017. Webb being a 3rd rounder makes no difference in the amount of information/film they could have had on him. What ever weight in regards to the draft they placed on what they may or may not think of his future for the NYGs is unknown to us.
-He is a 3rd round pick so his odds are slim he will be a successful starting caliber NFL QB.
- As has been stated he has a great work ethic, good size, strong arm, and attitude.
-I am excited to see Webb and Lauletta make positive steps throughout the rest of the preseason.
With that said I way more concerned with how Eli will perform than who his back up or heir apparent will be going forward.
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Post by GameTime on Aug 20, 2018 16:13:24 GMT -5
That makes sense. But the idea of the "had no idea who Webb was" makes no sense to me at all. What ever weight they placed on what they thought of Webb prior to the draft I have no idea. how about if we change the semantics to not enough info to make a proper decision about his future with the franchise. you are right, no idea is a bit strong. but they have college film, 2017 preseason and practice film. The same type of film and more then they would have for any other draft prospect. Them not knowing Webb maybe at one time was true but prior to the draft they had all they needed to know. What value they placed on that information is only know to them
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