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Post by McCherry on Feb 10, 2020 12:11:46 GMT -5
Because logic should tell you that you can't trade a pick that you haven't acquired yet. But you can. Just as you can spend money you do not yet have. It is call anticipating the asset. It's not even certain we'll get that pick. Dave would be a genius if he got the Jets to agree to that. Comp picks can be traded, but not if they don't exist. The Jets now own the 68th pick in the 2020 draft... True story.
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Post by Morehead State on Feb 10, 2020 12:13:45 GMT -5
Are you really suggesting that the Jets might get our compensatory pick (if we get one) instead of the 4th pick in the third round?
First of all that's nuts if true. Secondly, compensatory picks can't be traded.
I have already looked into that so here is the rule www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/14274468/nfl-owners-ok-compensatory-pick-trading-2017The owners, who are meeting in Irving, Texas, voted to allow compensatory draft picks to be traded beginning in 2017 and also voted to shorten the "legal tampering window" before free agency from three days to two. Fair enough. Didn't know they changed the rule.
but the ultimate point is that compensation in trades is specifically described. the actual pick we traded was our third round pick, not any possible compensatory picks. Those are far less valuable since they come at the end of the round.
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Post by TEM on Feb 10, 2020 12:14:55 GMT -5
But you can. Just as you can spend money you do not yet have. It is call anticipating the asset. It's not even certain we'll get that pick. Dave would be a genius if he got the Jets to agree to that. The Jets now own the 68th pick in the 2020 draft... True story. The giants probably will give the Jets pick 68 , but it is worded "A" third round pick. Not like the deal the Browns gave with OBJ "a specific" 3rd round pick.
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Post by GameTime on Feb 10, 2020 12:16:56 GMT -5
Bottom line... If Williams turns out to be a really good player then its all good. I can see it now..... Williams turns out to be a really good player and Gettlman gets lucky Williams turns out to be a average player and Gettleman is a dope. Turns out? It's not like this guy is an unknown quantity. He's been in the league for 5 years for God's sake,
We know what he is...a decent D lineman. Maybe a bit better than average. Quite honestly, he';s just a guy out there. Replacements for him can be had for a couple $MM per year.
he's 25 and his story is not done yet. Not saying he is going to become a defensive MVP but he can certainly "become" a better player. Why not?
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Post by TEM on Feb 10, 2020 12:18:33 GMT -5
Fair enough. Didn't know they changed the rule.
but the ultimate point is that compensation in trades is specifically described. the actual pick we traded was our third round pick, not any possible compensatory picks. Those are far less valuable since they come at the end of the round.
I would agree with you if the deal was worded ( well that way at least reported as) "A" 3rd round pick . Leaving the door open to allow the Giants if having more than 1 . To chose what the pick the giants want to give. It is worded with ambiguity. Like the Walker deal was.
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Post by Sarcasman on Feb 10, 2020 12:18:55 GMT -5
Loser either way but I would not overpay him Take the hit, keep the money and move on I'd be OK paying him up to about $9-$10M a year. Above that you gotta let him walk. Let's nor lose our heads here, Harrison is getting what? $11M $12M and Williams is better, full stop. That said, he ain't $15m worth.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Feb 10, 2020 12:22:37 GMT -5
I have said in the past and will continue to say, this was a TERRIBLE trade from day 1.
#1 - We were 2-6 and headed no where fast. There was no point in trying to improve the team in the last 8 games. We 100% should have been selling, not buying. Jenkins, Ogletree, ect. Even for 7th round picks. Whatever. By actually going out and getting a good player, maybe he helped us win an extra game in 2019 and that one extra game moved us from the 2 pick to the 4 pick. Not to mention he was a FA at years end!
#2 - If the thought was we were going to extend QWs contract, then the return for the Jets gets better, an early 3rd round pick in 2020 and a 4th round pick in 2021. Plus, with the early 3rd round pick and (4/5th) round pick attached to QW depending if he stays or goes, DG was putting hi head in a contract noose giving up all but the Tagging leverage. You dont think QWs agent was smiling?
#3 - He is a good player, but at that position, we could find cheaper alternatives and not be a worse defense. Middle DEs/DTs IMO are the easiest finds for a defense in the draft. And even the great ones, you dont go completely overboard and pay them 12-15m per season (exception Aaron Donald BEAST!). ITs why we lost great ones like Joseph (Tomlinson?) and Cofield (not exact same position but similar).
#4 - DG has showed us over and over again he cant be trusted. I am very worried he has some of the say still in that cap room and draft come April. Ill point out one thing that should bother everyone for a GM to say, and that is he didnt even want to pick up the phone to negotiate or see what was being offered for a certain pick. He may have heard the initials, but never negotiated or listened to the follow ups. Always listen!
So now we either pay QW a 5 year $70-75m ish contract, and lose an early 3rd and 4th round pick when we could have just offered that as a FA to see if he would bite and kept the picks, OR we let him walk and he signs somewhere else for that much and we lose a 2020 top 4 3rd round pick and a 5th round pick in 2021. And when he does sign else where (because lets be real, he will), the 3rd (or 4th round) comp pick will most likely get vaporized when we sign players this FA period with our $80mish cap money.
Its a failed trade where he was just trying to improve the team in 2019 to hang on to his job, and it worked.
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Post by TCHOF on Feb 10, 2020 12:23:12 GMT -5
Personally I feel Williams would be a solid player on the DLine. But lets see what happens in FA ? Who knows if we can find any top player who even wants to come to a perennial loser. We probably have to overpay whoever we sign to come here. The last 3 years we average a 4-12 record. We might be lucky to talk anyone into believing this 3rd coaching regime in the last 4 years is the one to hitch your wagon to. You all might be damn glad if we could talk Williams into staying here. I never agree with this take on FA. With very few exceptions, these guys go where they can get the most money.
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Post by TCHOF on Feb 10, 2020 12:24:55 GMT -5
Are you really suggesting that the Jets might get our compensatory pick (if we get one) instead of the 4th pick in the third round?
First of all that's nuts if true. Secondly, compensatory picks can't be traded.
I have already looked into that so here is the rule www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/14274468/nfl-owners-ok-compensatory-pick-trading-2017The owners, who are meeting in Irving, Texas, voted to allow compensatory draft picks to be traded beginning in 2017 and also voted to shorten the "legal tampering window" before free agency from three days to two. You're right that compensatory picks can be traded.
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Post by Morehead State on Feb 10, 2020 12:25:41 GMT -5
Fair enough. Didn't know they changed the rule.
but the ultimate point is that compensation in trades is specifically described. the actual pick we traded was our third round pick, not any possible compensatory picks. Those are far less valuable since they come at the end of the round.
I would agree with you if the deal was worded ( well that way at least reported as) "A" 3rd round pick . Leaving the door open to allow the Giants if having more than 1 . To chose what the pick the giants want to give. It is worded with ambiguity. Like the Walker deal was. First of all this is complete lunacy. Teams don't trade players for ambiguous draft picks. they trade for SPECIFIC draft picks. Are you looking at the press accounts or the exact trade wording filed with the league?
Either way, you are grasping at straws. The Jets own the 68th pick in the draft. That is a done deal and no possible compensatory picks will change that.
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Post by TEM on Feb 10, 2020 12:35:54 GMT -5
I would agree with you if the deal was worded ( well that way at least reported as) "A" 3rd round pick . Leaving the door open to allow the Giants if having more than 1 . To chose what the pick the giants want to give. It is worded with ambiguity. Like the Walker deal was. First of all this is complete lunacy. Teams don't trade players for ambiguous draft picks. they trade for SPECIFIC draft picks. Are you looking at the press accounts or the exact trade wording filed with the league?
Either way, you are grasping at straws. The Jets own the 68th pick in the draft. That is a done deal and no possible compensatory picks will change that.
Show me the exact wording filed with the league? Because all the press account in October were written with the same exact statement.
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Post by Fletch842 on Feb 10, 2020 12:42:35 GMT -5
If we do indeed get a 3rd round comp pick for losing Collins, it would be uber if we can give that one to the Jets instead of our natural one. Personally, I'll be pleasantly surprised if it goes that way, I think the chances are mighty slim.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Feb 10, 2020 12:56:34 GMT -5
If we do indeed get a 3rd round comp pick for losing Collins, it would be uber if we can give that one to the Jets instead of our natural one. Personally, I'll be pleasantly surprised if it goes that way, I think the chances are mighty slim. Only Gettleman would fall for a thing like that. (See Browns 3rd round pick traded for Odell).
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Post by TCHOF on Feb 10, 2020 13:26:50 GMT -5
Are you really suggesting that the Jets might get our compensatory pick (if we get one) instead of the 4th pick in the third round?
First of all that's nuts if true. Secondly, compensatory picks can't be traded.
I have already looked into that so here is the rule www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/14274468/nfl-owners-ok-compensatory-pick-trading-2017The owners, who are meeting in Irving, Texas, voted to allow compensatory draft picks to be traded beginning in 2017 and also voted to shorten the "legal tampering window" before free agency from three days to two. Looks like you can also conditionally trade an anticipated compensatory pick.
If the Giants and Jets did this, then why wouldn't they have clarified by now after being trashed for giving up a high third rounder?
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Post by TEM on Feb 10, 2020 13:47:30 GMT -5
Looks like you can also conditionally trade an anticipated compensatory pick.
If the Giants and Jets did this, then why wouldn't they have clarified by now after being trashed for giving up a high third rounder?
Why I question the ambiguity of it. Why wasn't it spelled out? It seems to me the Giants have the better hand.
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Post by Sarcasman on Feb 10, 2020 13:58:08 GMT -5
Looks like you can also conditionally trade an anticipated compensatory pick.
If the Giants and Jets did this, then why wouldn't they have clarified by now after being trashed for giving up a high third rounder?
Why I question the ambiguity of it. Why wasn't it spelled out? It seems to me the Giants have the better hand. That seems hard to believe. I certainly wouldn’t ever expect the media to get it right but there is a fair number of folks here that fashion themselves as authorities in this kind of thing and they have all denounced this trade as an epic fail. So now I’m faced with believing either that less is known about this than folks are admitting or that many self proclaimed experts here are absolutely full of shit. In my heart, I think it’s both.
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Post by moecoastie on Feb 10, 2020 13:59:57 GMT -5
no he wasnt...he played 3-tech primarily. Then where were Tomlinson and Lawrence? Lawrence played the 5, 3 and 1...Tomlinson played the 3 and 1, BJ played the 5 and 3. That's not to say that any one of them couldnt play any other position, but those were outliers rather the their primary positions (i.e. once in a great while you would see tomlinson or Williams @ the 5, etc..)
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Post by JoeyCush on Feb 10, 2020 14:54:23 GMT -5
This talk about whether or not the pick is the original 3rd or a compensatory 3rd is crazy. While I understand (and currently holding onto hope it is) that the release doesn't state what number pick, therefore it could be the compensatory, I am more willing to believe from GM to GM to the league office, there are more specifics that we dont know.
Its not very likely DG "got one over" on the Jets and they think they are getting the 68th pick when in reality they arent. You cant undo the trade either.
DG knows what he sent over. The Jets know what they are receiving. Im 99% sure we got the sh*t end of the stick.
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Post by thetruth on Feb 10, 2020 15:05:20 GMT -5
Then where were Tomlinson and Lawrence? Lawrence played the 5, 3 and 1...Tomlinson played the 3 and 1, BJ played the 5 and 3. That's not to say that any one of them couldnt play any other position, but those were outliers rather the their primary positions (i.e. once in a great while you would see tomlinson or Williams @ the 5, etc..) The position Williams plays in our 3-4 is a 3-4 DE. The tech only stipulates where relative to the OG,C,OT,TE each DL lines up in. Williams position is a 3-4 DE in a 3-4 defence. There is only 1 DT in a 3-4 defence, his name on this team is Dalvin Tomlinson. Also, he rarely sniffs the 3-tech, he plays 1 or 0. As do most who play NT. Tell me, where do you see that Williams rarely played the 5-tech? genuinely curious, which tape?
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Post by moecoastie on Feb 10, 2020 15:08:31 GMT -5
Lawrence played the 5, 3 and 1...Tomlinson played the 3 and 1, BJ played the 5 and 3. That's not to say that any one of them couldnt play any other position, but those were outliers rather the their primary positions (i.e. once in a great while you would see tomlinson or Williams @ the 5, etc..) The position Williams plays in our 3-4 is a 3-4 DE. The tech only stipulates where relative to the OG,C,OT,TE each DL lines up in. Williams position is a 3-4 DE in a 3-4 defence. There is only 1 DT in a 3-4 defence, his name on this team is Dalvin Tomlinson. Also, he rarely sniffs the 3-tech, he plays 1 or 0. As do most who play NT. Tell me, where do you see that Williams rarely played the 5-tech? genuinely curious, which tape? I actually watch the games, you should do the same. Exactly...where they line up is much more indicative of their position than some out-dated and restrictive label that doesnt properly represent their true role/job.
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Post by thetruth on Feb 10, 2020 15:10:47 GMT -5
Why I question the ambiguity of it. Why wasn't it spelled out? It seems to me the Giants have the better hand. That seems hard to believe. I certainly wouldn’t never expect the media to get it right but there is a fair number of folks here that fashion themselves as authorities in this kind of thing and they have all denounced this trade as an epic fail. So now I’m faced with believing either that less is known about this than folks are admitting or that many self proclaimed experts here are absolutely full of shit. In my heart, I think it’s both. Giving up a 3rd/4th or 5th for the 'hope' of signing an average DL in a FA period that has players that are better than Williams at the same position is a little crazy, no? I mean, when you also realize that this position is the most talent rich in the league, you pause. Then? you realize that we already had decent starters in this position prior to the trade, you just shake your head. What 3rd rounder we give up doesn't matter.
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Post by thetruth on Feb 10, 2020 15:11:49 GMT -5
The position Williams plays in our 3-4 is a 3-4 DE. The tech only stipulates where relative to the OG,C,OT,TE each DL lines up in. Williams position is a 3-4 DE in a 3-4 defence. There is only 1 DT in a 3-4 defence, his name on this team is Dalvin Tomlinson. Also, he rarely sniffs the 3-tech, he plays 1 or 0. As do most who play NT. Tell me, where do you see that Williams rarely played the 5-tech? genuinely curious, which tape? I actually watch the games, you should do the same. Exactly...where they line up is much more indicative of their position than some out-dated and restrictive label that doesnt properly represent their true role/job. Well, welcome to the NFL where first downs are still measured by two posts and a chain. Does the franchise tag work relative to what tech the lineman plays? lmk. Which game tapes in your review showed that williams rarely played 5-tech? since you watch and all. Better yet whats the difference between a 5 and a 3 tech? fire that google search up
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 10, 2020 15:18:43 GMT -5
I agree you are not signing a quality interior D-linemen for peanuts. And in our system he wasn't an interior lineman. he was a DE in a 3-4 scheme. What would he be in our new Scheme? Are we going back to a 4-3? It doens't seem so. As a DT in a 4-3...he seems better suited than what he was with us. He was all of the above played every position in an odd and even front scraficed numbers for the good of his team. he is in the top ten and gonna command between 11 to 14 mill a year took would have gotten 21 in todays NFL. The kid from J Ville is Looking for 21 and up for his 8-9 sacks a year and 20 pressures and week run defense Osi for 21 mill. this isn't 2007.
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Post by moecoastie on Feb 10, 2020 15:19:45 GMT -5
I actually watch the games, you should do the same. Exactly...where they line up is much more indicative of their position than some out-dated and restrictive label that doesnt properly represent their true role/job. Well, welcome to the NFL where first downs are still measured by two posts and a chain. Does the franchise tag work relative to what tech the lineman plays? lmk. Which game tapes in your review showed that williams rarely played 5-tech? since you watch and all. Better yet whats the difference between a 5 and a 3 tech? fire that google search up Okay bud...I get why people here don't take you seriously and constantly bash you. Enjoy your day.
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Post by thetruth on Feb 10, 2020 15:20:32 GMT -5
Well, welcome to the NFL where first downs are still measured by two posts and a chain. Does the franchise tag work relative to what tech the lineman plays? lmk. Which game tapes in your review showed that williams rarely played 5-tech? since you watch and all. Better yet whats the difference between a 5 and a 3 tech? fire that google search up Okay bud...I get why people here don't take you seriously and constantly bash you. Enjoy your day. exactly what I thought. You talk but can't back it up.
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Post by moecoastie on Feb 10, 2020 15:28:58 GMT -5
Okay bud...I get why people here don't take you seriously and constantly bash you. Enjoy your day. exactly what I thought. You talk but can't back it up. Yeah...you really got me...lol.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 10, 2020 15:32:06 GMT -5
If we do indeed get a 3rd round comp pick for losing Collins, it would be uber if we can give that one to the Jets instead of our natural one. Personally, I'll be pleasantly surprised if it goes that way, I think the chances are mighty slim. We are getting that pick and a bunch of seventh rounders.
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Post by Fletch842 on Feb 10, 2020 15:50:44 GMT -5
If we do indeed get a 3rd round comp pick for losing Collins, it would be uber if we can give that one to the Jets instead of our natural one. Personally, I'll be pleasantly surprised if it goes that way, I think the chances are mighty slim. We are getting that pick and a bunch of seventh rounders. that's my expectation, and I'm 99.9% sure that our natural 3rd round pick will be the ones the Jets get, not the comp, but I guess there is a sliver of a chance that it goes down like that.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Feb 10, 2020 15:57:33 GMT -5
We are getting that pick and a bunch of seventh rounders. that's my expectation, and I'm 99.9% sure that our natural 3rd round pick will be the ones the Jets get, not the comp, but I guess there is a sliver of a chance that it goes down like that. I don't care so much about that. I think if your looking at it from a football point of view Williams makes the guys around him better and made the defense better. They haven't had a unit you could say does something good in years he changed that for the DL very good against the run and moving the QB constantly. I say keep him and pay a lower value target like fowler and line him up with Xman and Carter.
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Post by Sarcasman on Feb 10, 2020 16:00:08 GMT -5
that's my expectation, and I'm 99.9% sure that our natural 3rd round pick will be the ones the Jets get, not the comp, but I guess there is a sliver of a chance that it goes down like that. I don't care so much about that. I think if your looking at it from a football point of view Williams makes the guys around him better and made the defense better. They haven't had a unit you could say does something good in years he changed that for the DL very good against the run and moving the QB constantly. I say keep him and pay a lower value target like fowler and line him up with Xman and Carter. Half this board still wines about getting rid of Harrison. It's natural that they'd hate Williams and demand he be paid less than the guy he is better and younger than.
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