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Clowney
Mar 7, 2020 10:19:00 GMT -5
Post by IrishMike on Mar 7, 2020 10:19:00 GMT -5
Do you believe Golden is a Bettcher system guy?...as some suggest? He really lacks speed, bend quickness, moves... Watch and tell me when Golden makes his sack, what do you see/ Honestly I don't think he is a Bettcher system guy. To define that we have to agree that is someone that only succeed because of the system, it was the scheme that got him open to make a sack.
In the very first highlight you see what Golden does. He flat out beat the OT. Most of his sacks you can see what he really does well which is just consistent hard work to gain pressure. He isn't flashy at all, but it's consistent hard work that builds pressure and eventually leads to sacks.
I think he would have the same level of success (or more) under the Judge/Graham system. I do not see anything "special" in this system that lead to his success. Any DC should try to put his guy in position for success and we will do the same. He had to beat his guy on most of his sacks, very few was he schemed open.
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Clowney
Mar 7, 2020 10:25:55 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2020 10:25:55 GMT -5
"....if you just look at the stat column you are not going to see this...." Stats are for baseball nerds...apologies to the nerds...as we all need nerds to do taxes... and provide aerial cover. Grable....coaching. This is a fair tape study on what he was, and the progression.
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Clowney
Mar 7, 2020 10:35:09 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2020 10:35:09 GMT -5
Do you believe Golden is a Bettcher system guy?...as some suggest? He really lacks speed, bend quickness, moves... Watch and tell me when Golden makes his sack, what do you see/ Honestly I don't think he is a Bettcher system guy. To define that we have to agree that is someone that only succeed because of the system, it was the scheme that got him open to make a sack.
In the very first highlight you see what Golden does. He flat out beat the OT. Most of his sacks you can see what he really does well which is just consistent hard work to gain pressure. He isn't flashy at all, but it's consistent hard work that builds pressure and eventually leads to sacks.
I think he would have the same level of success (or more) under the Judge/Graham system. I do not see anything "special" in this system that lead to his success. Any DC should try to put his guy in position for success and we will do the same. He had to beat his guy on most of his sacks, very few was he schemed open.
Me personally? I don't see anything regarding moves, power, speed...I see a QB holding onto a ball too long...and him just working it hard ...nothing special As far as "flashy"...guys who are premiere have a bend, swim moves, bull rushes, hand jabs...and the ability to work off insane speed...that is athletic ability. He lacks anything flashy for sure...and I'm not paying a guy for JUST some sack numbers...Clowney is well worth the 20 IMHO, Golden nothing more then 10 due to what I call garbage sacks...I do not see Golden ever double teamed either. He does not place the other players into positive situations by creating another player blocking him, maybe a tight end or running back having to slow/stop chip ect... See, that is why I don't adhere to the Conklin signing...he actually weakens the offense by having to have help when he pass blocks. That of course is a hinderance on any offense...
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Clowney
Mar 7, 2020 11:01:00 GMT -5
Post by IrishMike on Mar 7, 2020 11:01:00 GMT -5
Me personally? I don't see anything regarding moves, power, speed...I see a QB holding onto a ball too long...and him just working it hard ...nothing special As far as "flashy"...guys who are premiere have a bend, swim moves, bull rushes, hand jabs...and the ability to work off insane speed...that is athletic ability. He lacks anything flashy for sure...and I'm not paying a guy for JUST some sack numbers...Clowney is well worth the 20 IMHO, Golden nothing more then 10 due to what I call garbage sacks...I do not see Golden ever double teamed either. I said the difference between them already. You asked if I think he is a product of the system, I do not. I doubt that you do because nothing that you have said leads to a system guy. You agree with me that he is a hard worker that is very consistent in his pressures. He also uses that same work ethic to rack up tackles in the run game. He is the definition of a lunch pail guy. It is all about preference.
You said $10m a year but I don't think you are really looking at what players are getting paid. Look at what guys are getting paid now for that level of production, it ain't $10m. And we both know each year the salary goes hire and hire which is why Clowney is about to get Von Miller/Khalil Mack money. I think we can agree Clowney is not Von Miller or Khalil Mack good.
You need lunch pail guys and flash guys in order to have a top tier defense. emoji
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 7, 2020 11:04:54 GMT -5
"....if you just look at the stat column you are not going to see this...." Stats are for baseball nerds...apologies to the nerds...as we all need nerds to do taxes... and provide aerial cover. Grable....coaching. This is a fair tape study on what he was, and the progression. Clowney’s been living off the college clip of him de-helmeting a Michigan player. He has been a disappointment in the NFL. I want nothing to do with him at $20M per
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Clowney
Mar 7, 2020 11:32:22 GMT -5
Post by DandyDon on Mar 7, 2020 11:32:22 GMT -5
What exactly is off-field pressure?
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Clowney
Mar 7, 2020 19:30:44 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2020 19:30:44 GMT -5
I'm just trying to read tea leaves here. Clowney "brings more" and I predicted he will get $5m more a year. I pointed it out earlier though, Clowney brings more in the ceiling of his ability. He truly can take over games. But that isn't that common (twice last year). Where as Golden is not taking over a game, but is consistent in what he brings. Both have their place and I would love to have both. I don't want to get stuck without a game changer and without a consistent presence.
All depends on what type of defender you are looking for. The potential to take over games is why Clowney will get a bigger contract. Golden's steady production is why he will get paid, although it will be a lesser amount.
Do you believe Golden is a Bettcher system guy?...as some suggest? He really lacks speed, bend quickness, moves... Watch and tell me when Golden makes his sack, what do you see/ Sack 1 - Long looping run around the tackle, no bend...Allen looked like a rookie there. Sack 2 - Long loop with a constant look at Allen...no use of hands, and again Josh having no feel. Motor sack. Sack 3 - Stunt, Golden comes in clean ( DC sack) Sack 4 - Blocked for an eternity, Winston holds on to it for an eternity, and Golden gets a coverage sack as Winston begins to run out of the pocket Sack 5 - Blocked again for an eternity, coverage sackSack 6 - Toasts the single block tight end with speed and slight bend - still showing nothing in wow. Credit to the DC for getting that one on one Sack 7 - Best sack as he uses a nice swim move and quickness to beat the guard and take down Brady Sack 8 - Silly sack...Stafford falls down and Golden runs up and touches his fall down. His inside weak bull rush did cause Stafford to roll out though, and then eventually fall on the white lineSack 9 - Unblocked from the edge vs JetsSack 10 - Nice quick inside move clearly beating the left tackle - Papa mentions he has 7.5 for the season, I'm at 11, but some are shared.
Sack 11 - Unblocked again...Trubinsky can't avoid the path - 8.5 for the season
Sack 12 Slowly developed inside move with the QB taking too much time
Positives - Relentless on pass downs. High motor and a very good feel for where the QB is
Negatives - Lacks bend, a bull rush, upper level quickness... and looks easy to single block, as he only beat three single blocks "for a sack" within 2.5 seconds...for 16 games.
This is a HIGHLIGHT reel, and he did not impress me...but, some other players looked wow at times
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Clowney
Mar 7, 2020 19:40:21 GMT -5
Post by IrishMike on Mar 7, 2020 19:40:21 GMT -5
Why are you trying to bash Golden in a thread about Clowney? If Clowney is good then it does not matter how good or bad Golden is. I know and have said exactly what Golden is. If you want to change peoples minds about Clowney you are taking the wrong road, especially if you are trying to change my mind.
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Clowney
Mar 7, 2020 19:43:06 GMT -5
Post by IrishMike on Mar 7, 2020 19:43:06 GMT -5
What exactly is off-field pressure? I believe the stats says the Seahawks got more pressure when Clowney was on the field than when he wasn't. Not shocking really. The concern many people have is that he was only on the field for 57% of the snaps. And since the Seahawks were so bad without him out there he really hurt his team on 43% of their snaps.
Just my best guess though.
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Clowney
Mar 7, 2020 20:02:41 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2020 20:02:41 GMT -5
Why are you trying to bash Golden in a thread about Clowney? If Clowney is good then it does not matter how good or bad Golden is. I know and have said exactly what Golden is. If you want to change peoples minds about Clowney you are taking the wrong road, especially if you are trying to change my mind. See reply 61 and 64 I believe...you began talking about Golden. No big deal Mike, the entire board goes off the tracks at times...actually a lot of times. I'm just pointing out some Golden tape "sack" evaluation, and hoping you understand that the stunts and match ups against the tight end, and guard, and free runs at the QB were not Golden's wow ability, but a system created sack. I'd let him walk...but he will, as he should...and use that sack number to get as much money as he can.
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Clowney
Mar 7, 2020 21:26:41 GMT -5
Post by allnygin on Mar 7, 2020 21:26:41 GMT -5
I don't think i'd be upset with signing Clowney even knowing how much he'll demand. The Dline will be set and probably much improved and it willl make going offense early in the draft so much easier. Injuries though are a concern, but you run that risk with Golden at 30 on a surgically repaird knee anyway, in fact thats moe concerning than Clowneys injury history.
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Clowney
Mar 8, 2020 17:57:08 GMT -5
Post by vinnie on Mar 8, 2020 17:57:08 GMT -5
Over rated? Check Injury prone? Check Over paid? Check This is a Gettleman special. Welcome to the NY Giants Mr. Clowney! I have a completely different opinion Overrated? 2nd highest total of tackles for no gain or a loss. As a Texan 47.2% of his run tackles were for a loss or no gain. That is an absurd number. Season Pass-rush grade Rank 2019 76.7 21/120 2018 78.8 13/112 2017 74.7 29/121 2016 71.3 30/121 2015 64.6 55/115 2014 50.5 N/A His pass rush is his average issue, but that has been improving each year. Remembering of course, sacks might be stand and cheer events to LT and MS Giant fans, but so are third down QB pressured throwaways. His injuries were early in his career, and he plays well over 800 snaps a year now. He does take penalties but....he did knock Carson Wentz out.... Sure, will be a 100 million dollar plus total contract, but Jones is on a rookie deal, and JC is the one player in a position of need, and known entity that is only 27 years old. I do believe the Giants need to make one huge splash on pass rush/edge this year in free agency...Clowney wants to come here, for whatever reasons...he is willing to play on this now sad team...that alone is a nice thing, and if signed could lure some other defensive players, league players who vote him top 100 each year...maybe a corner, safety and Cory Littleton. IMHO...Clowney, Anthony Harris and Littleton takes this defense to another level. Have any idea how many games he’s played over the past few years? How different would his numbers be without JJ Watt? Any idea how he did when Watt was hurt? He also seems to take plays off and his sack numbers are pathetic but I know that’s not everything. I just don’t seem him as warranting to be paid as one of the highest defensemen in the league.
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Clowney
Mar 8, 2020 21:18:33 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 21:18:33 GMT -5
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Post by TEM on Mar 9, 2020 7:10:28 GMT -5
What exactly is off-field pressure? Yelling at the Qb from the sidelines
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Post by TEM on Mar 9, 2020 7:25:23 GMT -5
What exactly is off-field pressure? I believe the stats says the Seahawks got more pressure when Clowney was on the field than when he wasn't. Not shocking really. The concern many people have is that he was only on the field for 57% of the snaps. And since the Seahawks were so bad without him out there he really hurt his team on 43% of their snaps.
Just my best guess though.
This is the big question? What do those numbers mean (11%,33%)? A 22% discrepancy. This is what they mean: Why was he not on the field for the 11% ? That is the question. Not the numbers. It's not like he is on the field for 80% of the Defensive snaps. What you would expect from a DE/ OLB that was a pass rusher and a run stopper. If he was 20 million + good. He would be on the field 80 to 90% of the defensive snaps in games he is suited up for. He is at 70% That is a 2 down player. 48 snaps a game out of 70 . 70 snaps per game An average of 2 Defensive sets per quarter 9 plays per set. He is on the field for 6 plays per set. or a 2 down player. (2nd and 3rd down.)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 8:52:05 GMT -5
I believe the stats says the Seahawks got more pressure when Clowney was on the field than when he wasn't. Not shocking really. The concern many people have is that he was only on the field for 57% of the snaps. And since the Seahawks were so bad without him out there he really hurt his team on 43% of their snaps.
Just my best guess though.
This is the big question? What do those numbers mean (11%,33%)? A 22% discrepancy. This is what they mean: Why was he not on the field for the 11% ? That is the question. Not the numbers. It's not like he is on the field for 80% of the Defensive snaps. What you would expect from a DE/ OLB that was a pass rusher and a run stopper. If he was 20 million + good. He would be on the field 80 to 90% of the defensive snaps in games he is suited up for. He is at 70% That is a 2 down player. 48 snaps a game out of 70 . 70 snaps per game An average of 2 Defensive sets per quarter 9 plays per set. He is on the field for 6 plays per set. or a 2 down player. (2nd and 3rd down.) Would hernias, knees and hip issues be a possible cause for less snaps?...sort of a coach keeping the numbers in TEM overusage range because of X and Y factors? Clowney according to the stay away group - no sacks, horrible against the run...always injured, never tries hard... Wow, take away the injuries that he generally plays through, I'm seeing on film, exactly what the guys who know a lot more about football then I do see in him...and why he's a top free agent. Buyer beware...injuries and snap counts due to them. Sorry TEM, but you lost me when you said he he peaked at age 25.
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Post by TEM on Mar 9, 2020 9:14:29 GMT -5
This is the big question? What do those numbers mean (11%,33%)? A 22% discrepancy. This is what they mean: Why was he not on the field for the 11% ? That is the question. Not the numbers. It's not like he is on the field for 80% of the Defensive snaps. What you would expect from a DE/ OLB that was a pass rusher and a run stopper. If he was 20 million + good. He would be on the field 80 to 90% of the defensive snaps in games he is suited up for. He is at 70% That is a 2 down player. 48 snaps a game out of 70 . 70 snaps per game An average of 2 Defensive sets per quarter 9 plays per set. He is on the field for 6 plays per set. or a 2 down player. (2nd and 3rd down.) Would hernias, knees and hip issues be a possible cause for less snaps?...sort of a coach keeping the numbers in TEM overusage range because of X and Y factors? Clowney according to the stay away group - no sacks, horrible against the run...always injured, never tries hard... Wow, take away the injuries that he generally plays through, I'm seeing on film, exactly what the guys who know a lot more about football then I do see in him...and why he's a top free agent. Buyer beware...injuries and snap counts due to them. Sorry TEM, but you lost me when you said he he peaked at age 25. Perhaps you should look at this . It is a symmetrical bell curve. www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/ClowJa00.htm
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2020 9:37:23 GMT -5
Would hernias, knees and hip issues be a possible cause for less snaps?...sort of a coach keeping the numbers in TEM overusage range because of X and Y factors? Clowney according to the stay away group - no sacks, horrible against the run...always injured, never tries hard... Wow, take away the injuries that he generally plays through, I'm seeing on film, exactly what the guys who know a lot more about football then I do see in him...and why he's a top free agent. Buyer beware...injuries and snap counts due to them. Sorry TEM, but you lost me when you said he he peaked at age 25. Perhaps you should look at this . It is a symmetrical bell curve. www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/ClowJa00.htmI belong to PFF edge...it still does not take into account injuries...and last year he got better, a LOT better as he played in the new 4-3 and battled through injuries...then in the dominating 49ers game, hernia, games off again (also a game off due to the flu)...and now surgery. I will concede the money at 23 probably too high...I will concede his injuries, while not major, are the nagging type, and do limit snap counts...that's been a career problem. So on those points, I would take pause at signing him. The when totally healthy tape? He's very good to best player in the league dominating ...even the stats on PFF will tell as such. Gettleman has already said he's the best edge in free agency...that however, is a argument on your side. We'll just have to disagree to agree I guess
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Post by JoeyCush on Mar 9, 2020 12:47:06 GMT -5
Im slowly talking myself into rooting for Clowney to sign with the Giants. I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages to signing Clowney at the moment. Taking into account who is on this team currently, who is available in FA and how the draft shakes out.
They have the money, the crop of pass rushers in FA isnt great, they should not give up capital to trade and sign someone, 99% likely missing out on Chase Young and they have nobody currently on the roster that desperately needs a contract extension. By the time they can realistically get out of the Clowney contract, Jones would be due for an extension.
Sign Schobert and Clowney, draft a tackle in first round and this team is already vastly improved.
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Clowney
Mar 9, 2020 13:35:42 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by EliDaGoat713 on Mar 9, 2020 13:35:42 GMT -5
Im slowly talking myself into rooting for Clowney to sign with the Giants. I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages to signing Clowney at the moment. Taking into account who is on this team currently, who is available in FA and how the draft shakes out. They have the money, the crop of pass rushers in FA isnt great, they should not give up capital to trade and sign someone, 99% likely missing out on Chase Young and they have nobody currently on the roster that desperately needs a contract extension. By the time they can realistically get out of the Clowney contract, Jones would be due for an extension. Sign Schobert and Clowney, draft a tackle in first round and this team is already vastly improved. I'm thinking our big three free agents will be Clowney, Schobert, and Jones. Watch they draft Wirfs...
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Clowney
Mar 9, 2020 14:11:50 GMT -5
Post by Delicreep on Mar 9, 2020 14:11:50 GMT -5
Is it my imagination, or are most of the great board GM's staying out of this thread?
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Post by Delicreep on Mar 9, 2020 14:19:13 GMT -5
Im slowly talking myself into rooting for Clowney to sign with the Giants. I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages to signing Clowney at the moment. Taking into account who is on this team currently, who is available in FA and how the draft shakes out. They have the money, the crop of pass rushers in FA isnt great, they should not give up capital to trade and sign someone, 99% likely missing out on Chase Young and they have nobody currently on the roster that desperately needs a contract extension. By the time they can realistically get out of the Clowney contract, Jones would be due for an extension. Sign Schobert and Clowney, draft a tackle in first round and this team is already vastly improved. I'm actually convincing myself that a front loaded deal may make sense and be more than worth the risk.
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Post by snyder55 on Mar 9, 2020 15:39:30 GMT -5
at this point in time I think the Giants need a real good draft more than they need free agents.....
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