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Post by Sarcasman on Mar 27, 2021 21:46:35 GMT -5
Well of course. To cut to he chase what player signs with a team because of the GM? I would say probably none I love that it Joe's team and I firmly believe they will start winning like a normal good team should. No less than 9 wins. But you know.....lets see it THE GM IS THE ONLY REASON A PLAYER IS OFFERED A CONTRACT. Cut the shit, respectfully. To me this is an argument built on a distinction without a difference. It is Judge's and the HC has to communicate that vision to the players he wants, that's their day to day contact. I think the player needs to see an organization that is in synch and I think th Giants demonstrate that. I don't think it is binary at all. I think that just like an effective football team, the organization needs to play a balanced game and to me, it appears the Giants ar a better balanced organization with Judge as HC. But that doesn't make the GM unimportant.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2021 21:53:20 GMT -5
THE GM IS THE ONLY REASON A PLAYER IS OFFERED A CONTRACT. Cut the shit, respectfully. To me this is an argument built on a distinction without a difference. It is Judge's and the HC has to communicate that vision to the players he wants, that's their day to day contact. I think the player needs to see an organization that is in synch and I think th Giants demonstrate that. I don't think it is binary at all. I think that just like an effective football team, the organization needs to play a balanced game and to me, it appears the Giants ar a better balanced organization with Judge as HC. But that doesn't make the GM unimportant. I agree with you. But still, if the GM doesn't want a player on the team he won't be on the team.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 27, 2021 23:39:47 GMT -5
The reality is that this team is being built in Joe's image. He is the face of the franchise. No player is coming here because of Dave...or John Mara. They are coming here because Joe is the kind of guy they want to play for. Dave can arrange the contracts and deal with the cap. That's fine. he can also run the scouting and identify the talent in the draft. But when it comes to team building.....JOE is the man. That is as clear as the collective nose on our face. You can deny if you like if it helps you to sleep at night. But it's simply a fact that Joe Judge is the most powerful person in the Giants organization. I'm curious...are other teams attracting free agents because of the GM? That's not to say in any way that Joe isn't making signings attractive...I believe that he is as well...but I just don't think any players are drawn to a GM, a man they are unlikely to deal with often outside of being hired. Deli...Joe is getting the players he wants.
Joe is making the calls for this team.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 27, 2021 23:40:54 GMT -5
To me this is an argument built on a distinction without a difference. It is Judge's and the HC has to communicate that vision to the players he wants, that's their day to day contact. I think the player needs to see an organization that is in synch and I think th Giants demonstrate that. I don't think it is binary at all. I think that just like an effective football team, the organization needs to play a balanced game and to me, it appears the Giants ar a better balanced organization with Judge as HC. But that doesn't make the GM unimportant. I agree with you. But still, if the GM doesn't want a player on the team he won't be on the team. Keep telling yourself that. No way Dave would have signed Kenny Golladay on his own.
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Post by McCherry on Mar 28, 2021 0:02:20 GMT -5
I agree with you. But still, if the GM doesn't want a player on the team he won't be on the team. Keep telling yourself that. No way Dave would have signed Kenny Golladay on his own.True, he needed John Mara's money.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 28, 2021 0:07:43 GMT -5
Keep telling yourself that. No way Dave would have signed Kenny Golladay on his own.True, he needed John Mara's money. I don't get this blind faith in Dave. Don't we care about results anymore?
How much failure is OK with you?
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Post by dvision on Mar 28, 2021 1:13:41 GMT -5
I agree. The difference from bad or good teams IMO can be who they attract. Judge is known to be a hard ass coach and the fact players want to come play for him says a lot about those players. On the flip side some coaches are soft ass "players coaches" and they attract players too, but it says a lot about those guys.
Give me the players that want to play for the hard ass.
Remember all the BS in the media last season about his coaching style would make FA shy away from him. I guess that horse has be put out to pasture. Making guys run laps at practice! Players are never going to go there and play for a guy like that!
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Post by thetruth on Mar 28, 2021 2:22:37 GMT -5
Keep telling yourself that. No way Dave would have signed Kenny Golladay on his own.True, he needed John Mara's money. Well, he needed Kevin Abrams to actually structure every deal. Considering, he's not a big believer in backloading deals which he said is as many words but a few weeks ago. New players want to play here because they believe in Judge and what he preaches, that has been a constant that they all have mentioned. Not to mention, having current players vouch for him is what is selling players to joining the team, we just spent $200MM in new contracts while having presumably "no" cap space. Every single team has space if they want to make it. DG showed his ability to assess talent prior to Judge. It wasn't pretty. We should all be thankful for Judge and the change he's created. He's doing it in an organization that exhibits cronyism to its fullest extent. Quite the feat Mr Judge. Well done
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Post by Delicreep on Mar 28, 2021 5:46:59 GMT -5
I'm curious...are other teams attracting free agents because of the GM? That's not to say in any way that Joe isn't making signings attractive...I believe that he is as well...but I just don't think any players are drawn to a GM, a man they are unlikely to deal with often outside of being hired. Deli...Joe is getting the players he wants.
Joe is making the calls for this team.
I didn't say anything about that...I certainly didn't disagree with it. What I was asking was is there any belief that GM is a draw for free agents...that players are saying, "been my childhood dream to be signed by a guy like Jason Licht".
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Post by Delicreep on Mar 28, 2021 5:56:57 GMT -5
I agree with you. But still, if the GM doesn't want a player on the team he won't be on the team. Keep telling yourself that. No way Dave would have signed Kenny Golladay on his own. I believe that it came down to Judge/Jones. Whatever other offers there were, and any offers the agent felt were coming, KG signed with the Giants because of what he felt Judge/Jones brought to the table (along with a few other factors on related to the GM)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2021 6:22:22 GMT -5
Keep telling yourself that. No way Dave would have signed Kenny Golladay on his own. I believe that it came down to Judge/Jones. Whatever other offers there were, and any offers the agent felt were coming, KG signed with the Giants because of what he felt Judge/Jones brought to the table (along with a few other factors on related to the GM) This fallacy of Joe Judge running team personnel sounds wholesome and heartwarming, but it's not the truth. With that mindset you'd have to say Judge wanted Gallman & Zeitler off the team too. But you wont. Lol Y'all don't hear me though. The title of GM exists for a reason despite your heart warming thoughts towards the Head Coach. Hating on Dave Gettlemen has morphed into a Malcolm X idea.... "by any means necessary"
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Post by GameTime on Mar 28, 2021 6:30:09 GMT -5
Well of course. To cut to he chase what player signs with a team because of the GM?I would say probably none I love that it Joe's team and I firmly believe they will start winning like a normal good team should. No less than 9 wins. But you know.....lets see it Well, they sign because of the money, so I would say every player. I think the free agents liked what Judge has to say, but if the money isn't there, it's not happening. From a a personal aspect its not usually going to be about the GM. Its will be about the team and the HC mostly.
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Post by Delicreep on Mar 28, 2021 6:35:56 GMT -5
I believe that it came down to Judge/Jones. Whatever other offers there were, and any offers the agent felt were coming, KG signed with the Giants because of what he felt Judge/Jones brought to the table (along with a few other factors on related to the GM) This fallacy of Joe Judge running team personnel sounds wholesome and heartwarming, but it's not the truth. With that mindset you'd have to say Judge wanted Gallman & Zeitler off the team too. But you wont. Lol Y'all don't hear me though. The title of GM exists for a reason despite your heart warming thoughts towards the Head Coach. Hating on Dave Gettlemen has morphed into a Malcolm X idea.... "by any means necessary" not sure if this was meant for me...I certainly didn't say that DG was a potted plant, as other's have intimated. I'm simply saying that a HC a player believes in and QB he trust become factors; liking the GM does not. What I find fascinating is that both of the chief proponents of the Judge run the show are Jerry Reese fans; both of them say that Judge is like TC in his control of the team and he calls the shots...but neither will say that Reese was a potted plant under TC's control. With Joe - the GM is a 5th wheel. With TC - Reese is the greatest Giants GM ever. And FYI, I would argue that Reese may be the best GM we had.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2021 6:44:51 GMT -5
Cool...IF something stupid happens we all know who to point the finger at then.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2021 6:46:43 GMT -5
This fallacy of Joe Judge running team personnel sounds wholesome and heartwarming, but it's not the truth. With that mindset you'd have to say Judge wanted Gallman & Zeitler off the team too. But you wont. Lol Y'all don't hear me though. The title of GM exists for a reason despite your heart warming thoughts towards the Head Coach. Hating on Dave Gettlemen has morphed into a Malcolm X idea.... "by any means necessary" not sure if this was meant for me...I certainly didn't say that DG was a potted plant, as other's have intimated. I'm simply saying that a HC a player believes in and QB he trust become factors; liking the GM does not. What I find fascinating is that both of the chief proponents of the Judge run the show are Jerry Reese fans; both of them say that Judge is like TC in his control of the team and he calls the shots...but neither will say that Reese was a potted plant under TC's control. With Joe - the GM is a 5th wheel. With TC - Reese is the greatest Giants GM ever. And FYI, I would argue that Reese may be the best GM we had. that comment was projected at the entire board.. and I also agree with you on the Reese sentiment.
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Post by Fletch842 on Mar 28, 2021 6:54:54 GMT -5
Cool...IF something stupid happens we all know who to point the finger at then. The rule is that everything good came from Joe, everything bad Dave. Pretty simple.
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Post by TEM on Mar 28, 2021 7:14:35 GMT -5
This fallacy of Joe Judge running team personnel sounds wholesome and heartwarming, but it's not the truth. With that mindset you'd have to say Judge wanted Gallman & Zeitler off the team too. But you wont. Lol Y'all don't hear me though. The title of GM exists for a reason despite your heart warming thoughts towards the Head Coach. Hating on Dave Gettlemen has morphed into a Malcolm X idea.... "by any means necessary" not sure if this was meant for me...I certainly didn't say that DG was a potted plant, as other's have intimated. I'm simply saying that a HC a player believes in and QB he trust become factors; liking the GM does not. What I find fascinating is that both of the chief proponents of the Judge run the show are Jerry Reese fans; both of them say that Judge is like TC in his control of the team and he calls the shots...but neither will say that Reese was a potted plant under TC's control. With Joe - the GM is a 5th wheel. With TC - Reese is the greatest Giants GM ever. And FYI, I would argue that Reese may be the best GM we had. Your post is why I am having trouble taking the OP seriously anymore. How do you hold a conversation with someone when facts are laid ( not just by one person but by multiple ) and they denied and replace with personal opinion. To me his entire mantra on DJ and JJ suggests he would rather be a clown than the maintain any dignity. We all have moments when we are wrong. Most of members on the board do not double down on it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2021 7:25:09 GMT -5
not sure if this was meant for me...I certainly didn't say that DG was a potted plant, as other's have intimated. I'm simply saying that a HC a player believes in and QB he trust become factors; liking the GM does not. What I find fascinating is that both of the chief proponents of the Judge run the show are Jerry Reese fans; both of them say that Judge is like TC in his control of the team and he calls the shots...but neither will say that Reese was a potted plant under TC's control. With Joe - the GM is a 5th wheel. With TC - Reese is the greatest Giants GM ever. And FYI, I would argue that Reese may be the best GM we had. Your post is why I am having trouble taking the OP seriously anymore. How do you hold a conversation with someone when facts are laid ( not just by one person but by multiple ) and they denied and replace with personal opinion. To me his entire mantra on DJ and JJ suggests he would rather be a clown than the maintain any dignity. We all have moments when we are wrong. Most of members on the board do not double down on it. At the end of the day your company may have the best manager in the state, but if the head of HR doesn't like your resume you will never be offered an interview
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Post by TEM on Mar 28, 2021 7:39:30 GMT -5
Your post is why I am having trouble taking the OP seriously anymore. How do you hold a conversation with someone when facts are laid ( not just by one person but by multiple ) and they denied and replace with personal opinion. To me his entire mantra on DJ and JJ suggests he would rather be a clown than the maintain any dignity. We all have moments when we are wrong. Most of members on the board do not double down on it. At the end of the day your company may have the best manager in the state, but if the head of HR doesn't like your resume you will never be offered an interview Think about it. Rosie a few weeks encouraged the lurkers to join the site. Who wants to join this nincompoop show? It is comical in a bazar way. The manager of the site wants new members and one of his mods posts the same ridiculously themed thread over and over and over again. It is really funny.
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Post by Roswell on Mar 28, 2021 8:57:31 GMT -5
True, he needed John Mara's money. I don't get this blind faith in Dave. Don't we care about results anymore?
How much failure is OK with you?
Depends. Would you consider the second half of last season a failure? If FAs come to teams for 10 different reasons probably 5 of the 10 reasons are related to money or terms. One is the QB. One is the legit chance to get a ring. One might be geography. One might be the head coach. And one might be coaches on the staff. There isn’t an argument in hell that would make me think that guys are flocking to the 6-10 Giants solely because this is “Joe Judge’s team.” He has a good chance to be a good coach in this league. But let’s not anoint him as the next Belichick just yet. He has an ever increasing role but not the last word in all matters as the OP suggests.
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Post by GameTime on Mar 28, 2021 9:03:44 GMT -5
so who are last season 10 losses on?
Judge or Dave
who's team is it?
Oh wait.....I used the dreaded word "team".
look it up and see what it means.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 28, 2021 9:12:49 GMT -5
I agree. The difference from bad or good teams IMO can be who they attract. Judge is known to be a hard ass coach and the fact players want to come play for him says a lot about those players. On the flip side some coaches are soft ass "players coaches" and they attract players too, but it says a lot about those guys.
Give me the players that want to play for the hard ass.
I dont think its about hard ass or soft ass. I think they want to play for someone who they think they can win with, who they respect, and who they think can put them in a position to be their best. Of course money is always an issue, especially among the star players. But there's a lot of other players that determine a winning team, and culture does count, IMO. I do think the type of coach plays a huge role though. It's well documented that some players HATE the way Bill coaches even if they had a great chance to win. Many people last year were saying how Judge's style will blow up in his face ect. I agree there are many factors that go into it. I like players that want to play for a tough coach though.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 28, 2021 9:15:22 GMT -5
The reality is that this team is being built in Joe's image. He is the face of the franchise. No player is coming here because of Dave...or John Mara. They are coming here because Joe is the kind of guy they want to play for. Dave can arrange the contracts and deal with the cap. That's fine. he can also run the scouting and identify the talent in the draft. But when it comes to team building.....JOE is the man. That is as clear as the collective nose on our face. You can deny if you like if it helps you to sleep at night. But it's simply a fact that Joe Judge is the most powerful person in the Giants organization. 1) James Bradberry came here because of Gettleman, he said as much last year.
2) This team is being built in Judge's image....by Dave Gettleman. That is how these things work if the coach and GM have a good relationship. Dave did the exact same thing with Shurmur and Co.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 28, 2021 9:16:54 GMT -5
so who are last season 10 losses on? Judge or Dave who's team is it? Oh wait.....I used the dreaded word "team". look it up and see what it means. Clearly those loses were on Dave. Our 6 wins last year were due to Judge though lol.
I feel like a freak since I like both Judge and Gettleman. Is something wrong with me that I like and support both the HC and GM of my favorite team?
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Post by GameTime on Mar 28, 2021 9:20:35 GMT -5
so who are last season 10 losses on? Judge or Dave who's team is it? Oh wait.....I used the dreaded word "team". look it up and see what it means. Clearly those loses were on Dave. Our 6 wins last year were due to Judge though lol.
I feel like a freak since I like both Judge and Gettleman. Is something wrong with me that I like and support both the HC and GM of my favorite team?
another fact worth mention is that maybe Judge will be a better HC than Gettleman is as a GM. Or maybe within that working relationship one party has more influence over one aspect of the team than the other. That would vary from team to team of course and from each GM and HC tandem.
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Post by bluebuddha on Mar 28, 2021 9:38:51 GMT -5
If Judge is running the show it explains to me the large contracts paid out to players with injuries. I don't think this is the case but it does explain the inexperience with large contracts with no incentives or play time escalators builtin for insurance against injury. It was like the players had a number and Judge said OK deal I trust you are going to keep your end of the bargain even though you haven't done it consistently in the NFL yet.
The good thing is if it goes bad it's on the GM not the coach since no one really knows what is happening behind the scenes. The GM to me is the one who determines and owns the risk of acquiring the player and whether the player is worth the value of the contract. In this case it seems people are claiming Judge is overriding this control even though he does not have the experience to do so.
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Post by Roswell on Mar 28, 2021 9:38:52 GMT -5
Message boards are chock full of hot takes, declarations and speculations of how any given team operates.
Truth is, none of us know.
No matter how many threads we create on the same subject.
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Post by snyder55 on Mar 28, 2021 9:44:18 GMT -5
apparently a lot of people on this board think highly of Joe Judge, because he's a nice guy? or because his team wins football games?. None of us knows much about Judge at this point and his win record leaves a lot to be desired. Parcells used to say that the scoreboard tells you what you need to know and so far the scoreboard doesn't say too much about Judge...
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Post by McCherry on Mar 28, 2021 10:17:11 GMT -5
True, he needed John Mara's money. I don't get this blind faith in Dave. Don't we care about results anymore?
How much failure is OK with you?
Joe Judge is the one who went 6-10 last year. And it’s his ass if we don't win now.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 28, 2021 10:20:16 GMT -5
I don't get this blind faith in Dave. Don't we care about results anymore?
How much failure is OK with you?
Joe Judge is the one who went 6-10 last year. And it’s his ass if we don't win now. If Joe wins only 15 games in his first 3 seasons....fire his ****ing ass.
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