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Post by Roswell on Mar 29, 2021 9:14:21 GMT -5
I don't understand why this thread has gone so sideways. We can put a nice bow on it if we all just realize there is a faction on this board that allows DG the blame for everything that goes wrong and allows Judge the praise for everything that goes right. And never the opposite. It's a flawless argument steeped in unrealistic convenience. And it is as silly as the day is long. It so freaking nuts that I believe that there are two groups. The first group actually believes that nonsense and the second group says they believe it but are trolling. To my point though, MS has clearly stated this as an opinion and takes random needling in many threads due to his stance. Do you think someone who has an unpopular opinion should be warned or banned? I don't think anyone should be banned for an opinion. At the end of the day we are all fans of the same team and want that team to win. I could care less how we win at this point and who gets the credit. My point was that since none of us really know what goes on with respect to the day to day decisions of the franchise that it's funny when declarations are made. Declarations are not opinions. As a matter of fact, in this instance, they are delusional.
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Post by Delicreep on Mar 29, 2021 9:19:26 GMT -5
I don't understand why this thread has gone so sideways. We can put a nice bow on it if we all just realize there is a faction on this board that allows DG the blame for everything that goes wrong and allows Judge the praise for everything that goes right. And never the opposite. It's a flawless argument steeped in unrealistic convenience. And it is as silly as the day is long. It so freaking nuts that I believe that there are two groups. The first group actually believes that nonsense and the second group says they believe it but are trolling. To my point though, MS has clearly stated this as an opinion and takes random needling in many threads due to his stance. Do you think someone who has an unpopular opinion should be warned or banned? Morehead should be banned...right or wrong.
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Post by McCherry on Mar 29, 2021 9:23:20 GMT -5
That could be the reason he wasn't restructured and do you blame him for wanting to get off this bad team? Never seeing an article about it.. My bet goes towards Getty not wanting to keep him and never gave him a chance to work out the money issue..I dont blame anyone. I think he knew he would get picked up immediately and not have to take a pay hit and the Giants prolly knew the same thing. I do find it a bit silly after what they accomplished in FA that peeps are still complaining about losing Zeitler. He's basically an average to above average NFL OG.Probably the most overrated loss since Landon Collins.
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te88
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Post by te88 on Mar 29, 2021 9:25:09 GMT -5
Based on this list, which players are you giving credit to Judge & which one's are you giving credit to DG? "Watch they image start to lessen" - The Weeknd I'm giving credit to both. But lets be clear about something: we saw what this team's personnel moves were like without Judge. We have a clear comparison of what kind of moves the team made before Judge and what kind of moves they have made with him. If anyone doesn't think Judge is the primary reason for the difference then I don't know what else to say. “But our personnel decisions improved a bit in 2019, and then significantly last year. I think the combination of Joe and Dave works. Who got hired last year again? The influence of Judge is crystal clear.
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Post by Roswell on Mar 29, 2021 9:25:12 GMT -5
My opinion with DG is nothing has changed. When he first got here he knew the owners wanted to build around Eli. So he tried and failed.
I can't recall a single poster having a problem with bringing in Solder and taking out Flowers. Not one.
When Shurmur's staff wanted Jones and some of the familiar ex Cardinal players that Bettcher wanted, he tried to build around those guys' wishes. Even brought in Williams to try and stop the bleeding on D and try to save those coaches from being fired. And still Shurmur and Bettcher failed. Does DG share in the blame? Of course. The owners? Yes. There was plenty of blame to go around.
Now we have Judge. Early reviews are good considering they started out 1-7 and finished 5-3. The Giants had a great off season last year. They seem to be on the right track this year. For my money, a rebuild doesn't commence until the new QB starts taking snaps.
Bottom line, they wasted a year building around Eli. So now this is year 3 of the rebuild and Year 2 with the right coach. I get the impatience. What I don't get is putting all of the blame on the GM. There's plenty of people that had a hand in the mistakes that were made since the onset.
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Post by Roosevelt on Mar 29, 2021 9:30:13 GMT -5
We have guests (no log in) and more often than not guests out number log ins. IMO: You want to them to see the joke this site is becoming .Keep allowing it to continue. Like I said I think it is funny. If I was a lurker like I was on the old site for years. I would think twice about joining the site because of the content that is being told as fact. We all know it is not. Yet the thread is allowed to keep the BS going, I get the feeling it is taboo to call him on his BS. This site is becoming no different than a flat earth site . l stay because I have a few friends here. Not because the site is anything special. The fact we dropped a few notches as far content compared to the other sites. This used to be the best Giants board on the web. I cannot say that anymore. Not taking anything away from your analysis TEM, however to be fair most forums, youtube channels etc have more lurkers than active participants. It's always been that way.
It's no different with talk radio. Only a small fraction of the listeners actually call in.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2021 9:33:26 GMT -5
I am one of those who didn't like the oline getting worse during the FA period. They didn't find any of those "average" guards to replace him so I don't understand why fans aren't concerned with the current oline.. Where did I say I wasn't concerned about the OL? I've been concerned about it for the past 6 or 7 years. That doesn't mean I want to overpay for a decent OG. Which player have we signed in FA that you would rather not have if we kept Zeitler? Let Williams walk or don't sign Golladay and sign Tomlinson and Zeitler for the 21 three year contract he signed in Baltimore..
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Post by McCherry on Mar 29, 2021 9:40:36 GMT -5
Based on this list, which players are you giving credit to Judge & which one's are you giving credit to DG? "Watch they image start to lessen" - The Weeknd I'm giving credit to both. But lets be clear about something: we saw what this team's personnel moves were like without Judge. We have a clear comparison of what kind of moves the team made before Judge and what kind of moves they have made with him. If anyone doesn't think Judge is the primary reason for the difference then I don't know what else to say. “But our personnel decisions improved a bit in 2019, and then significantly last year. I think the combination of Joe and Dave works. Who got hired last year again? The influence of Judge is crystal clear. Gettleman built a Championship team in Carolina, you’re acting like he's never made a good decision. He had one bad year of free agency to start his tenure, then had his best in draft in 2019 before Joe Judge arrived. After taking 3 offensive linemen in last year's draft, most of you want the OL rebuilt again and are crying over losing Zeitler, so I don't know what positive influence you're giving Judge credit for?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2021 9:40:37 GMT -5
My opinion with DG is nothing has changed. When he first got here he knew the owners wanted to build around Eli. So he tried and failed. I can't recall a single poster having a problem with bringing in Solder and taking out Flowers. Not one. When Shurmur's staff wanted Jones and some of the familiar ex Cardinal players that Bettcher wanted, he tried to build around those guys wishes. Even brought in Williams to try and stop the bleeding on D and try to save those coaches from being fired. And still Shurmur and Bettcher failed. Does DG share in the blame? Of course. The owners? Yes. There was plenty of blame to go around. Now we have Judge. Early reviews are good considering they started out 1-7 and finished 5-3. The Giants had a great off season last year. They seem to be on the right track this year. For my money, a rebuild doesn't commence until the new QB starts taking snaps. Bottom line, they wasted a year building around Eli. So now this is year 3 of the rebuild and Year 2 with the right coach. I get the impatience. What I don't get is putting all of the blame on the GM. There's plenty of people that had a hand in the mistakes that were made at the onset. I didn't think Solder was a good signing from the start and I remember not being alone with that call. The team should've been rebuilding and not over paying for a player who never was a great player.. I don't get why people can't put the blame for this bad roster on the the person who is front and center for this organization for signing/drafting these players. The added bonus is how it upsets some that he's getting the blame..
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 29, 2021 9:41:15 GMT -5
It so freaking nuts that I believe that there are two groups. The first group actually believes that nonsense and the second group says they believe it but are trolling. To my point though, MS has clearly stated this as an opinion and takes random needling in many threads due to his stance. Do you think someone who has an unpopular opinion should be warned or banned? No. But he does what he always does, even starting a totally new thread about it when he just argued the exact same point in 20 pages of another thread. I'm not saying he is a troll, but he loves the attention he gets. I did because I saw this article that supports my view.
I think it's important for Giants fans to consider that what they think is going on with their team, really isn't.
Am I frustrated that more fans don't see what seems absolutely clear? Probably. But I'll keep fighting the good fight regardless.
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Post by McCherry on Mar 29, 2021 9:43:43 GMT -5
No. But he does what he always does, even starting a totally new thread about it when he just argued the exact same point in 20 pages of another thread. I'm not saying he is a troll, but he loves the attention he gets. I did because I saw this article that supports my view.
I think it's important for Giants fans to consider that what they think is going on with their team, really isn't.
Am I frustrated that more fans don't see what seems absolutely clear? Probably. But I'll keep fighting the good fight regardless.
False, you saw an article that said nothing like that and twisted it around.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 29, 2021 9:45:16 GMT -5
My opinion with DG is nothing has changed. When he first got here he knew the owners wanted to build around Eli. So he tried and failed. I can't recall a single poster having a problem with bringing in Solder and taking out Flowers. Not one. When Shurmur's staff wanted Jones and some of the familiar ex Cardinal players that Bettcher wanted, he tried to build around those guys' wishes. Even brought in Williams to try and stop the bleeding on D and try to save those coaches from being fired. And still Shurmur and Bettcher failed. Does DG share in the blame? Of course. The owners? Yes. There was plenty of blame to go around. Now we have Judge. Early reviews are good considering they started out 1-7 and finished 5-3. The Giants had a great off season last year. They seem to be on the right track this year. For my money, a rebuild doesn't commence until the new QB starts taking snaps. Bottom line, they wasted a year building around Eli. So now this is year 3 of the rebuild and Year 2 with the right coach. I get the impatience. What I don't get is putting all of the blame on the GM. There's plenty of people that had a hand in the mistakes that were made since the onset. I completely disagree with your first sentence. Dave had to be fully on board with building around Eli. He had to believe it was the right course.
I believe this because the alternative is too ugly to consider. And that would be that Dave was so spineless, that he would do things he believed were bad for the team in order to placate ownership.
In other words, if he was ordered to do what he truly believed was the wrong course, he would have resigned.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 29, 2021 9:46:13 GMT -5
I did because I saw this article that supports my view.
I think it's important for Giants fans to consider that what they think is going on with their team, really isn't.
Am I frustrated that more fans don't see what seems absolutely clear? Probably. But I'll keep fighting the good fight regardless.
False, you saw an article that said nothing like that and twisted it around. How does one "twist an article around"?
That would be a neat trick.
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te88
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Post by te88 on Mar 29, 2021 9:47:44 GMT -5
My opinion with DG is nothing has changed. When he first got here he knew the owners wanted to build around Eli. So he tried and failed. I can't recall a single poster having a problem with bringing in Solder and taking out Flowers. Not one. When Shurmur's staff wanted Jones and some of the familiar ex Cardinal players that Bettcher wanted, he tried to build around those guys wishes. Even brought in Williams to try and stop the bleeding on D and try to save those coaches from being fired. And still Shurmur and Bettcher failed. Does DG share in the blame? Of course. The owners? Yes. There was plenty of blame to go around. Now we have Judge. Early reviews are good considering they started out 1-7 and finished 5-3. The Giants had a great off season last year. They seem to be on the right track this year. For my money, a rebuild doesn't commence until the new QB starts taking snaps. Bottom line, they wasted a year building around Eli. So now this is year 3 of the rebuild and Year 2 with the right coach. I get the impatience. What I don't get is putting all of the blame on the GM. There's plenty of people that had a hand in the mistakes that were made at the onset. Pretty much what they've admitted now. One thing I will say is that it's pretty clear any Head Coach factors into everything (read: personnel) hugely. It is obvious they blamed Shurmur for the majority of the issues in terms of the players acquired and then then obviously subsequent performance of the team. That's why Shurmur is gone and Dave is here. But Dave only survived by the skin of his teeth. That makes it even more clear that they absolved him somewhat for the bad signings and trades...because they know he was supporting the root problem (bad coaches that sucked at identifying the right players for them to win with). We don't know the exact details but they probably looked at things and "Shurmur decisions" were mostly bad and then there were probably a few "Gettleman decisions" that were positives and ended up saving Dave's ass. So what does this mean? It means the HC in this org is the most important football job. This seems obvious to me but some people seem to think there are these rigid lines drawn around the coaching staff and the Front Office and that they are "equals" (whatever that means). Its just patently obvious that this org operates in a way that is to serve the HC...whether it is something they do consciously or not. The owner hires the HC, not the GM. The owner, for better or worse, is involved in football related decisions... When they went away from this approach it detonated a nuclear bomb on this organization: when they fired TC and kept Reese and then installed a very weak HC in McAdoo. During those years it's pretty clear to me that Reese would have been the #1 voice in the org, and while they trusted him and believed in him strongly (with good reason) it just didn't work having a weak coach. The org is just not able to work in that way. Reese brought in a lot of players that on paper should have turned results (and they did briefly) but with such a weak coach it was only a matter of time before it imploded. They have been trying to find their way back to the strong HC since then and it's pretty clear that they think they've found their guy. Judge's fingerprints are all over this team from top to bottom since they day he was hired.
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Post by Rangers13 on Mar 29, 2021 9:50:29 GMT -5
Idk, if Joe Judge was in really in charge he would have already fired Dave Gettleman lol.
Next!!
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Post by Roosevelt on Mar 29, 2021 9:51:24 GMT -5
I don't control the content of this site anymore than you or anyone else that contributes to it. And just to be clear, this is not a paid gig for any of us. I'm thankful to the guys who offered to help out and take it upon themselves to try and make this place a better experience than the old board. Message boards are notoriously difficult, so I appreciate all these guys do.
With that said, moderation is a completely separate matter from our football opinions. None of us profess to know more than any of you, except for Morehead of course ;-) and you've seen the rest of us react to him in that regard.
Despite your displeasure TEM, the interest on TGB has never been greater during an off season. Maybe you shouldn't take MS so seriously?
You do remember why you banned ELIDa Manning. It was his content. He never went after anyone. You threatened to ban him for it Then you did. Because you do not moderate the validity of the content. I can start 20 to 30 BS threads a day . How about these 2 threads for starters. "Why is a Football brown" and "The unsung hero. The white line painter of the field" I should be able create 30 of these types of threads a day without having a problem? With no warning or threats of being banned. Correct? If he can be purposeful in setting an agenda. So I can assume all members can . My agenda will be and I will lay it out on the line. Everything about football and nothing that pertains to to the game, FO, coaches, players. Is that what you want a board full of individuals with an agenda? How about I wait until the season starts to begin my little agenda endeavor? It sound ridiculous doesn't it?
Yes it is ridiculous.
When we all moved over to this board, I acquired some "rules" which were adapted from an other sports message board. They may not be perfect but I think they cover most of the issues we tend to face. As an example, your hypothetical could be in violation of two of our "rules."
5. No obsessive posting If you come to this board day after day, making the same basic comments over and over, that is being obsessive . Be sure to understand that no one is saying that specific topics are off limits, but we are saying is obsessing over something, whether it's a player, a coach, a draft pick, the owner, etc. will not be tolerated.
11. Do not attempt to dominate this board A successful message board community involves give and take. If one poster contributes too much to the point of disrupting the community, he or she may lose their posting privileges.
As for Morehead's belief, and yes we all understand it is his belief and not verified as factual; I think it's an interesting topic and worthy of discussion. It's a discussion that has now expanded beyond our site and I will be looking to get this answered from people who actually know.
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Post by McCherry on Mar 29, 2021 9:52:14 GMT -5
False, you saw an article that said nothing like that and twisted it around. How does one "twist an article around"?
That would be a neat trick.
You read a story about Dave and Joe’s collaborative relationship and start a thread saying Joe Judge is in charge.
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Post by Roswell on Mar 29, 2021 9:53:16 GMT -5
My opinion with DG is nothing has changed. When he first got here he knew the owners wanted to build around Eli. So he tried and failed. I can't recall a single poster having a problem with bringing in Solder and taking out Flowers. Not one. When Shurmur's staff wanted Jones and some of the familiar ex Cardinal players that Bettcher wanted, he tried to build around those guys wishes. Even brought in Williams to try and stop the bleeding on D and try to save those coaches from being fired. And still Shurmur and Bettcher failed. Does DG share in the blame? Of course. The owners? Yes. There was plenty of blame to go around. Now we have Judge. Early reviews are good considering they started out 1-7 and finished 5-3. The Giants had a great off season last year. They seem to be on the right track this year. For my money, a rebuild doesn't commence until the new QB starts taking snaps. Bottom line, they wasted a year building around Eli. So now this is year 3 of the rebuild and Year 2 with the right coach. I get the impatience. What I don't get is putting all of the blame on the GM. There's plenty of people that had a hand in the mistakes that were made at the onset. I didn't think Solder was a good signing from the start and I remember not being alone with that call. The team should've been rebuilding and not over paying for a player who never was a great player.. I don't get why people can't put the blame for this bad roster on the the person who is front and center for this organization for signing/drafting these players. The added bonus is how it upsets some that he's getting the blame.. That's not the issue. The GM deserves some of the blame. Some. What doesn't make sense is when people blame the GM for the mistakes but give no credit for the accomplishments. Judge has never built a roster in his life. Do you really think it was Judge's call to bring in Bradberry? Martinez? Gano? You love Zeitler at 12m per. Even though his best years are probably behind him. Who brought Zeitler in? Peppers? Lawrence? Their D hasn't been this good in 9 years. Is it all coaching? Or is it a combination of personnel and coaching? Bottom line is if Jones pans out and they draft well this year, all of the complaining will go away because this division is there for the taking.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 29, 2021 9:53:46 GMT -5
How does one "twist an article around"?
That would be a neat trick.
You read a story about Dave and Joe’s collaborative relationship and start a thread saying Joe Judge is in charge. Haven't you been saying that it's a collaborative relationship, therefor Dave is in charge?
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te88
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Post by te88 on Mar 29, 2021 9:57:32 GMT -5
I'm giving credit to both. But lets be clear about something: we saw what this team's personnel moves were like without Judge. We have a clear comparison of what kind of moves the team made before Judge and what kind of moves they have made with him. If anyone doesn't think Judge is the primary reason for the difference then I don't know what else to say. “But our personnel decisions improved a bit in 2019, and then significantly last year. I think the combination of Joe and Dave works. Who got hired last year again? The influence of Judge is crystal clear. Gettleman built a Championship team in Carolina, you’re acting like he's never made a good decision. He had one bad year of free agency to start his tenure, then had his best in draft in 2019 before Joe Judge arrived. After taking 3 offensive linemen in last year's draft, most of you want the OL rebuilt again and are crying over losing Zeitler, so I don't know what positive influence you're giving Judge credit for? I'm not acting like that at all. Stop projecting your incorrect comprehension of others back on to them. "Our personnel decisions improved a bit in 2019" Yes, that is the 2019 draft he is mostly referring to (this draft was not a slam dunk. Baker was a disaster. Jones is a question mark, although it is clear the Giants love him). "And then significantly last year" So this is your FA class of 2020 and the 2020 draft. Mara explicitly gives credit to "the combination of Joe and Dave" for that significant improvement in the personnel decision of 2020. Notice he did not say "Dave's personnel decisions" "The combination of Dave and Kevin Abrams" or anything resembling "Once Dave was unfettered by our previous coaches" Your quarrel isn't with me
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Post by McCherry on Mar 29, 2021 10:01:51 GMT -5
You read a story about Dave and Joe’s collaborative relationship and start a thread saying Joe Judge is in charge. Haven't you been saying that it's a collaborative relationship, therefor Dave is in charge? It’s the same with 90% of the league. Just because Dave is in charge doesn’t mean he’s dictating orders. That’s the whole point of those stories. I never said Joe hasn’t been a good influence, I’ve said you’re bending the facts to avoid giving credit to Gettleman.
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Post by Roswell on Mar 29, 2021 10:02:12 GMT -5
My opinion with DG is nothing has changed. When he first got here he knew the owners wanted to build around Eli. So he tried and failed. I can't recall a single poster having a problem with bringing in Solder and taking out Flowers. Not one. When Shurmur's staff wanted Jones and some of the familiar ex Cardinal players that Bettcher wanted, he tried to build around those guys' wishes. Even brought in Williams to try and stop the bleeding on D and try to save those coaches from being fired. And still Shurmur and Bettcher failed. Does DG share in the blame? Of course. The owners? Yes. There was plenty of blame to go around. Now we have Judge. Early reviews are good considering they started out 1-7 and finished 5-3. The Giants had a great off season last year. They seem to be on the right track this year. For my money, a rebuild doesn't commence until the new QB starts taking snaps. Bottom line, they wasted a year building around Eli. So now this is year 3 of the rebuild and Year 2 with the right coach. I get the impatience. What I don't get is putting all of the blame on the GM. There's plenty of people that had a hand in the mistakes that were made since the onset. I completely disagree with your first sentence. Dave had to be fully on board with building around Eli. He had to believe it was the right course.
I believe this because the alternative is too ugly to consider. And that would be that Dave was so spineless, that he would do things he believed were bad for the team in order to placate ownership.
In other words, if he was ordered to do what he truly believed was the wrong course, he would have resigned.
Okay. Two different thoughts that you are conveniently conflating. I never said DG wasn't to blame for trying to make it work with Eli. Read my original statement. But if the Giants are run they way they've always been run then the owners make the huge personnel decisions. Signing Beckham, trading Beckham, trying to build around Eli. These are decisions that require signing huge checks. These are franchise altering and franchise representing decisions. Those decisions are made from the office on the top floor in the Giants organization. Always have been. And I think John was very aware of how things with Simms ended up and his father's regrets and didn't want to replay it. Just my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2021 10:06:37 GMT -5
I didn't think Solder was a good signing from the start and I remember not being alone with that call. The team should've been rebuilding and not over paying for a player who never was a great player.. I don't get why people can't put the blame for this bad roster on the the person who is front and center for this organization for signing/drafting these players. The added bonus is how it upsets some that he's getting the blame.. That's not the issue. The GM deserves some of the blame. Some. What doesn't make sense is when people blame the GM for the mistakes but give no credit for the accomplishments. Judge has never built a roster in his life. Do you really think it was Judge's call to bring in Bradberry? Martinez? Gano? You love Zeitler at 12m per. Even though his best years are probably behind him. Who brought Zeitler in? Peppers? Lawrence? Their D hasn't been this good in 9 years. Is it all coaching? Or is it a combination of personnel and coaching? Bottom line is if Jones pans out and they draft well this year, all of the complaining will go away because this division is there for the taking.I agree but until that ACUALLY happens then this team is competing for being the worse in the league in fact I believe they've OWNED that spot since Getty has arrived.. For the record I've stated multiple times Zeitler needed to be restructured and was by a winning organization..
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Post by allnygin on Mar 29, 2021 10:19:36 GMT -5
TLDR: The Giants have always maintained they were a collaborative organization. I would hope so.
Are you suggesting one person doesn't have final say on players?
Are you suggesting it was dave who went out of his way to acquire all of those cardnals for betchers defense and not betcher who vouched for them? Makes sense.. I think it was more like Betcher was asked who can help the defense out and Shurmur/Gettlemen went out and did what they had to do to bring those players in.. So, again.. Collaboration. Of course there's always a final say. Just bc Garrett might want Patrick Mahmoes doesn't mean Gettlemen is trading the entire team to get him.. he's going to say no.
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Post by DandyDon on Mar 29, 2021 10:25:58 GMT -5
I completely disagree with your first sentence. Dave had to be fully on board with building around Eli. He had to believe it was the right course.
I believe this because the alternative is too ugly to consider. And that would be that Dave was so spineless, that he would do things he believed were bad for the team in order to placate ownership.
In other words, if he was ordered to do what he truly believed was the wrong course, he would have resigned.
Okay. Two different thoughts that you are conveniently conflating. I never said DG wasn't to blame for trying to make it work with Eli. Read my original statement. But if the Giants are run they way they've always been run then the owners make the huge personnel decisions. Signing Beckham, trading Beckham, trying to build around Eli. These are decisions that require signing huge checks. These are franchise altering and franchise representing decisions. Those decisions are made from the office on the top floor in the Giants organization. Always have been. And I think John was very aware of how things with Simms ended up and his father's regrets and didn't want to replay it. Just my opinion. Totally agree.
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Post by DandyDon on Mar 29, 2021 10:27:05 GMT -5
Where did I say I wasn't concerned about the OL? I've been concerned about it for the past 6 or 7 years. That doesn't mean I want to overpay for a decent OG. Which player have we signed in FA that you would rather not have if we kept Zeitler? Let Williams walk or don't sign Golladay and sign Tomlinson and Zeitler for the 21 three year contract he signed in Baltimore.. Then I'm glad you're not our GM.
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Post by McCherry on Mar 29, 2021 10:30:33 GMT -5
Gettleman built a Championship team in Carolina, you’re acting like he's never made a good decision. He had one bad year of free agency to start his tenure, then had his best in draft in 2019 before Joe Judge arrived. After taking 3 offensive linemen in last year's draft, most of you want the OL rebuilt again and are crying over losing Zeitler, so I don't know what positive influence you're giving Judge credit for? I'm not acting like that at all. Stop projecting your incorrect comprehension of others back on to them. "Our personnel decisions improved a bit in 2019" Yes, that is the 2019 draft he is mostly referring to (this draft was not a slam dunk. Baker was a disaster. Jones is a question mark, although it is clear the Giants love him). "And then significantly last year" So this is your FA class of 2020 and the 2020 draft. Mara explicitly gives credit to "the combination of Joe and Dave" for that significant improvement in the personnel decision of 2020. Notice he did not say "Dave's personnel decisions" "The combination of Dave and Kevin Abrams" or anything resembling "Once Dave was unfettered by our previous coaches" Your quarrel isn't with me I don't have a quarrel with anyone, I'm just pointing out that because Judge and the GM agree on personnel decisions doesn't suggest Judge the primary force behind anything we do. Golloday, certainly Williams and other moves would have been made regardless who the coach is. We had specific needs and management made the necessary moves to ensure we had the cap space to get it done. Whatever role we agree Judge has, he had nothing to do with that.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 29, 2021 11:00:48 GMT -5
Haven't you been saying that it's a collaborative relationship, therefor Dave is in charge? It’s the same with 90% of the league. Just because Dave is in charge doesn’t mean he’s dictating orders. That’s the whole point of those stories. I never said Joe hasn’t been a good influence, I’ve said you’re bending the facts to avoid giving credit to Gettleman. I'm not saying this article proves my point. I'm saying it supports my point.
It credits Joe Judge with enticing these players to come here. Have you seen any report anywhere that demonstrates Dave's role in any of these signings? The reason to me is that they are keeping Dave as far away from these guys as possible. Let him figure out the cap and give Joe the players he wants.
Dave will not overrule Joe on a single player, unless of course there is no financial way to make it happen. But as far as football is concerned, I believe Joe is calling the shots.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 29, 2021 11:03:54 GMT -5
I completely disagree with your first sentence. Dave had to be fully on board with building around Eli. He had to believe it was the right course.
I believe this because the alternative is too ugly to consider. And that would be that Dave was so spineless, that he would do things he believed were bad for the team in order to placate ownership.
In other words, if he was ordered to do what he truly believed was the wrong course, he would have resigned.
Okay. Two different thoughts that you are conveniently conflating. I never said DG wasn't to blame for trying to make it work with Eli. Read my original statement. But if the Giants are run they way they've always been run then the owners make the huge personnel decisions. Signing Beckham, trading Beckham, trying to build around Eli. These are decisions that require signing huge checks. These are franchise altering and franchise representing decisions. Those decisions are made from the office on the top floor in the Giants organization. Always have been. And I think John was very aware of how things with Simms ended up and his father's regrets and didn't want to replay it. Just my opinion. Then you must be misinterpreting my comments. In both scenarios, Dave has great culpability in the miscalculations of 2018. But you seem to be suggesting that he was instructed to build around Eli. My view is that he believed that building around Eli was the best course of action. He wasn't dragged kicking and screaming to follow a course he didn't believe in.
In other words, it was HIS opinion that building around Eli was the right course, regardless of what ownership believed.
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Post by McCherry on Mar 29, 2021 11:12:20 GMT -5
It’s the same with 90% of the league. Just because Dave is in charge doesn’t mean he’s dictating orders. That’s the whole point of those stories. I never said Joe hasn’t been a good influence, I’ve said you’re bending the facts to avoid giving credit to Gettleman. I'm not saying this article proves my point. I'm saying it supports my point.
It credits Joe Judge with enticing these players to come here. Have you seen any report anywhere that demonstrates Dave's role in any of these signings? The reason to me is that they are keeping Dave as far away from these guys as possible. Let him figure out the cap and give Joe the players he wants.
Dave will not overrule Joe on a single player, unless of course there is no financial way to make it happen. But as far as football is concerned, I believe Joe is calling the shots.
That would be a highly unusual situation for any organization. Especially the Giants. I don't know why they wouldn't have fired Gettleman is they were going to strip his executive power, and I don't know why Dave would agree to having his authority as GM stripped. Nobody in any industry would.
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