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Post by TEM on May 20, 2021 9:17:41 GMT -5
I am not pissed at him. I am pissed at the fact the players for placing him in the position to coddle them. 6 wins should be motivation enough to get their butts top practice. so now the players dictate to Judge how he will coach? If thats the case then he will fail as an NFL coach. Judge is trying to play both sides and looking for neutral ground. he is giving them the chpice along with the NFLPA request. I realize its "voluntary" but from what he is saying to the media he not putting pressure on his players You answered your own question.
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Post by Sarcasman on May 20, 2021 10:06:18 GMT -5
I love the enthusiasm from all the guys that aren't playing, but honestly I don't give a crap about how many people showed up vs how many showed up with other teams. When someone can draw a line directly - without stopping off in ancedoteville for a quick fill up - from voluntary workouts to championships, I will care. Meantime, the league will look exactly as it always does. About 20% will suck, about 20% will be very good and everyone else will be in the middle. Are you saying that and this? About 20% will suck, about 20% will be very good and everyone else will be in the middle. Statistically inaccurate. And and an anecdote unto its self. Statistically in the cap era 44% winning record 44% losing record 12% Tie record very good teams are jus under 14.5% (12 Wins +) Suck teams 16% (12+ losses) Those so call middle teams ( a majority of the playoff teams) are in that (69.5%) So 70% of the league is positioning for 10 playoff spots. ( 23 teams). That is a lot of individuals in a small boat. So when you sit here with you own anecdoteville philosophy and present it as "it does not matter who shows up and who does not" with 70% of the league ( parody) all trying to find that little something something to place them at the top of the heap . What they do in May does matter. I say 20%/20%/60% off the top of my head and your data says 15%/16%/70% and that is considered a statistically inaccurate anecdote? Given that, I can’t imagine what we would call projecting our feelings about how many players show up for OTAs into conclusions with zero data supporting those melodramatic emotions.
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Post by TCHOF on May 20, 2021 10:12:45 GMT -5
Get off my lawn Tony. Giants players showing up for voluntary workouts, after the NFLPA discouraged them from doing so, is a good thing. This isn't a tough concept to grasp. The first few replies to the thread were in line with this train of thought. It was right around post #6 when things went sideways and folks decided to make this an attendance contest with other teams across the league. The negative whirlwind grew from there. Well you pointed to the fact that half the team showed up for voluntary workouts as a reason to "love what we're building", when most teams in the league had a higher (many times a much higher) participation level. So, yes, it is a tough concept to grasp.
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Post by TEM on May 20, 2021 10:34:20 GMT -5
Are you saying that and this? About 20% will suck, about 20% will be very good and everyone else will be in the middle. Statistically inaccurate. And and an anecdote unto its self. Statistically in the cap era 44% winning record 44% losing record 12% Tie record very good teams are jus under 14.5% (12 Wins +) Suck teams 16% (12+ losses) Those so call middle teams ( a majority of the playoff teams) are in that (69.5%) So 70% of the league is positioning for 10 playoff spots. ( 23 teams). That is a lot of individuals in a small boat. So when you sit here with you own anecdoteville philosophy and present it as "it does not matter who shows up and who does not" with 70% of the league ( parody) all trying to find that little something something to place them at the top of the heap . What they do in May does matter. I say 20%/20%/60% off the top of my head and your data says 15%/16%/70% and that is considered a statistically inaccurate anecdote? Given that, I can’t imagine what we would call projecting our feelings about how many players show up for OTAs into conclusions with zero data supporting those melodramatic emotions. I would agree with you if we were not coming off not 1 but 4 consecutive horrible starts to the season . By that fact alone. It proves as a team we are not ready to play when the season starts. If the team is not committed to do what it takes. No coach is going to change that. Even if my opinion is false or even miniscule on what happens in May can be influential in September and early October. Why not do everything possible including attendance of V-OTAs With our early season record over the past 4 years, It does have validity on the notion the team was not ready to play when the season opened.. This is what I do not get . Why wouldn't these players want to take some pride in knowing there were no T-s uncrossed and I-s undotted when they run out on that field for week one. There is a defined amount of time between the end of the draft and the first week of the season. If players are not using that time "as a team" to be as prepared as possible when the season begins. They wont be. As I said there is a reason this team starts weak and gets better as the season progresses for the past 4 seasons that goes beyond a rebuild. The way I see it until this team has commitment to winning and gets that one player who will navigate the rest of them through the BS they are being fed from outside influences and focused what their goal should be. Less than Mediocre will be this franchise's base line.
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Post by Nick6475 on May 20, 2021 11:38:23 GMT -5
I say 20%/20%/60% off the top of my head and your data says 15%/16%/70% and that is considered a statistically inaccurate anecdote? Given that, I can’t imagine what we would call projecting our feelings about how many players show up for OTAs into conclusions with zero data supporting those melodramatic emotions. I would agree with you if we were not coming off not 1 but 4 consecutive horrible starts to the season . By that fact alone. It proves as a team we are not ready to play when the season starts. If the team is not committed to do what it takes. No coach is going to change that. Even if my opinion is false or even miniscule on what happens in May can be influential in September and early October. Why not do everything possible including attendance of V-OTAs With our early season record over the past 4 years, It does have validity on the notion the team was not ready to play when the season opened.. This is what I do not get . Why wouldn't these players want to take some pride in knowing there were no T-s uncrossed and I-s undotted when they run out on that field for week one. There is a defined amount of time between the end of the draft and the first week of the season. If players are not using that time "as a team" to be as prepared as possible when the season begins. They wont be. As I said there is a reason this team starts weak and gets better as the season progresses for the past 4 seasons that goes beyond a rebuild. The way I see it until this team has commitment to winning and gets that one player who will navigate the rest of them through the BS they are being fed from outside influences and focused what their goal should be. Less than Mediocre will be this franchise's base line. So you are saying low attendance for the voluntary OTAs causes a slow start to the season. Do you happen to have the historical data that would prove this out? I would look it up myself but have no idea where to find that data. Before COVID, I seem to remember "voluntary" OTAs being pretty much mandatory, although teams never came out and said that. Then every year some veterans (usually ones with contract issues) would sit them out and it would be a big thing about whether they wanted to be on the team anymore, would they show up for training camp or hold out, etc. Again, I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that attendance at these events historically was 90%+ for all teams.
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Post by TEM on May 20, 2021 11:46:24 GMT -5
I would agree with you if we were not coming off not 1 but 4 consecutive horrible starts to the season . By that fact alone. It proves as a team we are not ready to play when the season starts. If the team is not committed to do what it takes. No coach is going to change that. Even if my opinion is false or even miniscule on what happens in May can be influential in September and early October. Why not do everything possible including attendance of V-OTAs With our early season record over the past 4 years, It does have validity on the notion the team was not ready to play when the season opened.. This is what I do not get . Why wouldn't these players want to take some pride in knowing there were no T-s uncrossed and I-s undotted when they run out on that field for week one. There is a defined amount of time between the end of the draft and the first week of the season. If players are not using that time "as a team" to be as prepared as possible when the season begins. They wont be. As I said there is a reason this team starts weak and gets better as the season progresses for the past 4 seasons that goes beyond a rebuild. The way I see it until this team has commitment to winning and gets that one player who will navigate the rest of them through the BS they are being fed from outside influences and focused what their goal should be. Less than Mediocre will be this franchise's base line. So you are saying low attendance for the voluntary OTAs causes a slow start to the season. Do you happen to have the historical data that would prove this out? I would look it up myself but have no idea where to find that data. Before COVID, I seem to remember "voluntary" OTAs being pretty much mandatory, although teams never came out and said that. Then every year some veterans (usually ones with contract issues) would sit them out and it would be a big thing about whether they wanted to be on the team anymore, would they show up for training camp or hold out, etc. Again, I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that attendance at these events historically was 90%+ for all teams. I am not saying that at all. I am saying eliminate. all "what ifs" I will say this; if they start slow again and look unprepared to start the season . Fans will not be the only ones bringing this up.
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Post by IrishMike on May 20, 2021 19:40:57 GMT -5
Bullshit....Judge is giving latitude to the players. "It's a voluntary period. So we're going to work with every player we can, whether it's virtual or in-person," he said. "Whoever's here will coach in person. Whoever's virtual for the meetings, we'll work with them virtually." What is Judge supposed to do? He can't force them to show up. He can't punish them for not showing up. He is doing what he can.
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Post by Sarcasman on May 21, 2021 0:52:57 GMT -5
I say 20%/20%/60% off the top of my head and your data says 15%/16%/70% and that is considered a statistically inaccurate anecdote? Given that, I can’t imagine what we would call projecting our feelings about how many players show up for OTAs into conclusions with zero data supporting those melodramatic emotions. I would agree with you if we were not coming off not 1 but 4 consecutive horrible starts to the season . By that fact alone. It proves as a team we are not ready to play when the season starts. If the team is not committed to do what it takes. No coach is going to change that. Even if my opinion is false or even miniscule on what happens in May can be influential in September and early October. Why not do everything possible including attendance of V-OTAs With our early season record over the past 4 years, It does have validity on the notion the team was not ready to play when the season opened.. This is what I do not get . Why wouldn't these players want to take some pride in knowing there were no T-s uncrossed and I-s undotted when they run out on that field for week one. There is a defined amount of time between the end of the draft and the first week of the season. If players are not using that time "as a team" to be as prepared as possible when the season begins. They wont be. As I said there is a reason this team starts weak and gets better as the season progresses for the past 4 seasons that goes beyond a rebuild. The way I see it until this team has commitment to winning and gets that one player who will navigate the rest of them through the BS they are being fed from outside influences and focused what their goal should be. Less than Mediocre will be this franchise's base line. They need a Messier.
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Post by GameTime on May 21, 2021 5:13:43 GMT -5
Bullshit....Judge is giving latitude to the players. "It's a voluntary period. So we're going to work with every player we can, whether it's virtual or in-person," he said. "Whoever's here will coach in person. Whoever's virtual for the meetings, we'll work with them virtually." What is Judge supposed to do? He can't force them to show up. He can't punish them for not showing up. He is doing what he can. I was just making the point its not all on the players and its not an indictment of complete laziness, as a few had said, about the players. Its voluntary yes but the HC can "force" the players to show by what he says and how he acts. he has chosen not too. Maybe its a way of him weeding certain players out...IDK.
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Post by Morehead State on May 21, 2021 9:07:15 GMT -5
What is Judge supposed to do? He can't force them to show up. He can't punish them for not showing up. He is doing what he can. I was just making the point its not all on the players and its not an indictment of complete laziness, as a few had said, about the players. Its voluntary yes but the HC can "force" the players to show by what he says and how he acts. he has chosen not too. Maybe its a way of him weeding certain players out...IDK. Actually...he can't.
Any perceived pressure placed on players to attend voluntary workouts or OTA's is a direct violation of the CBA and could result in fines and loss of mandatory workouts.
Any "punishment" for not attending would result in players' grievances to the NFLPA and would be a violation of the CBA.
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Post by Jomo on May 21, 2021 10:30:13 GMT -5
I was just making the point its not all on the players and its not an indictment of complete laziness, as a few had said, about the players. Its voluntary yes but the HC can "force" the players to show by what he says and how he acts. he has chosen not too. Maybe its a way of him weeding certain players out...IDK. Actually...he can't.
Any perceived pressure placed on players to attend voluntary workouts or OTA's is a direct violation of the CBA and could result in fines and loss of mandatory workouts.
Any "punishment" for not attending would result in players' grievances to the NFLPA and would be a violation of the CBA.
In some cases, those who miss the OTAs will fall behind in their knowledge of our schemes, technique etc. On cut day however, the chips will fall where they may regardless of who showed up. I would guess however that on balance, young players who show up will be more advanced than those who don't. Nothing is absolute. I would also guess that being around more also gives a young player more opportunities to catch the coaches eye. This all comes within a voluntary system.
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Post by IrishMike on May 21, 2021 20:04:34 GMT -5
What is Judge supposed to do? He can't force them to show up. He can't punish them for not showing up. He is doing what he can. I was just making the point its not all on the players and its not an indictment of complete laziness, as a few had said, about the players. Its voluntary yes but the HC can "force" the players to show by what he says and how he acts. he has chosen not too. Maybe its a way of him weeding certain players out...IDK. The coach can't pressure them at all and we have no idea what he is saying to them in private. He 100% is saying the right thing in the media by not bitching about his players publicly.
With that said I agree with you 100%. This IMO has nothing to do with laziness. These guys all have to make business decisions and this is one of them. They have one career and have a chance to make money that will change the trajectory of their family forever. They need to make smart decisions. There are plenty that will be "lazy" and not do enough while away, but plenty others will be in amazing shape. I don't remember Shockey (just an example) ever being out of shape.
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Post by IrishMike on May 21, 2021 20:07:28 GMT -5
In some cases, those who miss the OTAs will fall behind in their knowledge of our schemes, technique etc. On cut day however, the chips will fall where they may regardless of who showed up. I would guess however that on balance, young players who show up will be more advanced than those who don't. Nothing is absolute. I would also guess that being around more also gives a young player more opportunities to catch the coaches eye. This all comes within a voluntary system. Yes. This is all part of making smart business decisions. If I were a young borderline player I'd have my ass there every day trying to learn and trying to impress the coaches. If I'm Daniel Jones or Odell Beckham I would do what's best for me, knowing my spot on the team is pretty secure.
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Post by GameTime on May 21, 2021 21:18:18 GMT -5
I was just making the point its not all on the players and its not an indictment of complete laziness, as a few had said, about the players. Its voluntary yes but the HC can "force" the players to show by what he says and how he acts. he has chosen not too. Maybe its a way of him weeding certain players out...IDK. Actually...he can't.
Any perceived pressure placed on players to attend voluntary workouts or OTA's is a direct violation of the CBA and could result in fines and loss of mandatory workouts.
Any "punishment" for not attending would result in players' grievances to the NFLPA and would be a violation of the CBA.
"force" is in quotes. Other teams have 90% turn out because all those players want to be there? The HCs can Incentivise the voluntary work out attendance. I am sure in subtle ways.
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Post by Morehead State on May 21, 2021 21:36:23 GMT -5
Actually...he can't.
Any perceived pressure placed on players to attend voluntary workouts or OTA's is a direct violation of the CBA and could result in fines and loss of mandatory workouts.
Any "punishment" for not attending would result in players' grievances to the NFLPA and would be a violation of the CBA.
"force" is in quotes. Other teams have 90% turn out because all those players want to be there? The HCs can Incentivise the voluntary work out attendance. I am sure in subtle ways. The NFLPA has their radar out this time of year.
I'm telling you, coaches can't even subtly suggest anything about OTA's or voluntary workouts.
The failure of some teams to have a good turnout has much more to do with the pressure the union puts on these guys since last year. They see an opportunity to stick it to the NFL and are putting huge pressure on the players to blow these workouts off.
It has nothing to do with Joe Judge or the Giants in general. It's all about which side each player bows to.
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Post by GameTime on May 22, 2021 7:20:30 GMT -5
"force" is in quotes. Other teams have 90% turn out because all those players want to be there? The HCs can Incentivise the voluntary work out attendance. I am sure in subtle ways. The NFLPA has their radar out this time of year.
I'm telling you, coaches can't even subtly suggest anything about OTA's or voluntary workouts.
The failure of some teams to have a good turnout has much more to do with the pressure the union puts on these guys since last year. They see an opportunity to stick it to the NFL and are putting huge pressure on the players to blow these workouts off.
It has nothing to do with Joe Judge or the Giants in general. It's all about which side each player bows to.
how does the Union "put pressure" on a player but a HC or organization cant? Preaching "solidarity" to a league full of "me first" players?
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Post by Nick6475 on May 25, 2021 13:34:38 GMT -5
FYI - From Jordan Ranaan
"Day 2 of Giants voluntary OTAs was Tuesday. About 75 players in attendance. A wide range of veterans and young players getting in work, ranging from Daniel Jones to Sterling Shepard to Matt Peart to Azeez Ojulari and many more. Really only some established veterans and a few others who would've been excused anyway had it been mandatory not there."
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Post by McCherry on May 25, 2021 13:54:13 GMT -5
FYI - From Jordan Ranaan "Day 2 of Giants voluntary OTAs was Tuesday. About 75 players in attendance. A wide range of veterans and young players getting in work, ranging from Daniel Jones to Sterling Shepard to Matt Peart to Azeez Ojulari and many more. Really only some established veterans and a few others who would've been excused anyway had it been mandatory not there." This was expected and all this bellyaching was over nothing.
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Post by Kruunch on May 25, 2021 14:16:24 GMT -5
FYI - From Jordan Ranaan "Day 2 of Giants voluntary OTAs was Tuesday. About 75 players in attendance. A wide range of veterans and young players getting in work, ranging from Daniel Jones to Sterling Shepard to Matt Peart to Azeez Ojulari and many more. Really only some established veterans and a few others who would've been excused anyway had it been mandatory not there." 75 players? Someone check the op’s vital signs. He’s probably hyperventilating after hearing the news.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2021 14:32:31 GMT -5
FYI - From Jordan Ranaan "Day 2 of Giants voluntary OTAs was Tuesday. About 75 players in attendance. A wide range of veterans and young players getting in work, ranging from Daniel Jones to Sterling Shepard to Matt Peart to Azeez Ojulari and many more. Really only some established veterans and a few others who would've been excused anyway had it been mandatory not there." 75 players? Someone check the op’s vital signs. He’s probably hyperventilating after hearing the news. emoji
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Post by Sarcasman on May 25, 2021 16:37:35 GMT -5
FYI - From Jordan Ranaan "Day 2 of Giants voluntary OTAs was Tuesday. About 75 players in attendance. A wide range of veterans and young players getting in work, ranging from Daniel Jones to Sterling Shepard to Matt Peart to Azeez Ojulari and many more. Really only some established veterans and a few others who would've been excused anyway had it been mandatory not there." 75 players? Someone check the op’s vital signs. He’s probably hyperventilating after hearing the news. I'm far more concerned with all those that have fainted across their chaise lounges once again because some team had 76 players show up.
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Post by Kruunch on May 25, 2021 16:56:00 GMT -5
75 players? Someone check the op’s vital signs. He’s probably hyperventilating after hearing the news. I'm far more concerned with all those that have fainted across their chaise lounges once again because some team had 76 players show up. Seasons are won and lost in May. Didn’t you get the memo? Check under your junk mail..
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Post by Morehead State on May 25, 2021 17:14:01 GMT -5
The NFLPA has their radar out this time of year.
I'm telling you, coaches can't even subtly suggest anything about OTA's or voluntary workouts.
The failure of some teams to have a good turnout has much more to do with the pressure the union puts on these guys since last year. They see an opportunity to stick it to the NFL and are putting huge pressure on the players to blow these workouts off.
It has nothing to do with Joe Judge or the Giants in general. It's all about which side each player bows to.
how does the Union "put pressure" on a player but a HC or organization cant? Preaching "solidarity" to a league full of "me first" players? I didn't make the rules. They were negotiated in the CBA.
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Post by GameTime on May 25, 2021 18:09:31 GMT -5
how does the Union "put pressure" on a player but a HC or organization cant? Preaching "solidarity" to a league full of "me first" players? I didn't make the rules. They were negotiated in the CBA. point being if the NFLPA can put pressure on their members the coaches and organization can as well. There are always ways to do it surreptitiously and I bet it happens all the time. As it should.
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Post by Morehead State on May 25, 2021 18:51:24 GMT -5
I didn't make the rules. They were negotiated in the CBA. point being if the NFLPA can put pressure on their members the coaches and organization can as well. There are always ways to do it surreptitiously and I bet it happens all the time. As it should. And I'll repeat.....No they can't. It's a violation of the CBA. The union putting pressure on its members to skip voluntary workouts....... isn't.
Any player who feels they were "surreptitiously" pressured by a coach or any other person in the organization can and would immediately file a grievance with the NFLPA and would win. The team would be fined or otherwise punished including the taking away of allowed practice time.
Violations of the CBA are a huge deal. The league won't tolerate it.
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Post by GameTime on May 25, 2021 18:56:42 GMT -5
point being if the NFLPA can put pressure on their members the coaches and organization can as well. There are always ways to do it surreptitiously and I bet it happens all the time. As it should. And I'll repeat.....No they can't. They do it Bro. Why do think other teams get 90% and others dont?
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Post by lasion2 on May 25, 2021 21:31:36 GMT -5
107 days until opening day and were talking about unions and cbas.
We’re right on schedule everybody!
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Post by Morehead State on May 25, 2021 21:55:03 GMT -5
And I'll repeat.....No they can't. They do it Bro. Why do think other teams get 90% and others dont? Believe it or not, some teams have great locker rooms and great leadership. Others...not so much.
I am surprised we didn't have a better showing. I thought there was good leadership among our players. I guess each team has their "union" guys as well. I suppose it depends on where their priorities lie.
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wtfjjk
Special Teams
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Post by wtfjjk on May 25, 2021 22:52:23 GMT -5
I don't know why but the only one I'm curious about is Sam Beal. If anyone needs to volunteer to show me something, it's him. He's on some real thin ice.
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Post by GameTime on May 26, 2021 4:30:14 GMT -5
They do it Bro. Why do think other teams get 90% and others dont? Believe it or not, some teams have great locker rooms and great leadership. Others...not so much.
I am surprised we didn't have a better showing. I thought there was good leadership among our players. I guess each team has their "union" guys as well. I suppose it depends on where their priorities lie.
maybe thats the key....the players putting pressure on one another to show up.
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