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Post by IrishMike on Jul 4, 2021 12:48:57 GMT -5
There was no hyperbole there.
There were the three starting WRs and a practice squad WR that also happens to be a former QB. Lot's of players were not there lol.
I posted that his absence might lead to speculation, and I also said that years of losing would add to the scrutiny he's received.
Your comment: "ZOMG Toney not there, he's a cancer and his career sucks, he's the reason we lost the last 5 years" seemed to be in response to mine. If I'm wrong, I apologize.
Nah I was not targeting anyone with that comment. It's a amalgamation of comments. Some people are reasonable in their questioning of Toney, others think that being a rapper means he's going to be doing drive by's on the LAPD. Getting on Toney for not showing up to OTAs is one thing. Getting on him for not being at a private workout that we know nothing about beyond a picture is something totally different.
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Post by TCHOF on Jul 4, 2021 13:32:23 GMT -5
David Stills is not a starting WR You seriously think that Jones would have this workout without inviting Toney? Yes I said that. He invited the starting WRs and a practice squad WR that also happens to be a QB.
Yes I absolutely believe that Jones would do this without inviting Toney. You don't see any scenario possible that can happen? It's not like the entire team was invited. Starting TEs weren't there, 2nd string RBs weren't there, 2nd string WRs weren't there. The only non starting WR was a QB.
Keep hating on the kid not knowing anything.
No scenario possible that Jones didn’t invite him
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Post by IrishMike on Jul 4, 2021 14:00:45 GMT -5
No scenario possible that Jones didn’t invite him LMAO ok man.
Is there any chance he didn't invite Engram?
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Post by TCHOF on Jul 4, 2021 14:12:46 GMT -5
No scenario possible that Jones didn’t invite him LMAO ok man.
Is there any chance he didn't invite Engram?
Nope I have no idea why neither of them went. Maybe they had completely legitimate excuses. But there is no chance that they weren’t invited.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jul 4, 2021 16:15:52 GMT -5
LOL I screwed up Smith dang. Right or wrong on Toney I stand by it he was a perfect value at 20. Got it … thought I missed someone! Nah I messed him up with Freeman.
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Post by IrishMike on Jul 4, 2021 16:38:42 GMT -5
Nope I have no idea why neither of them went. Maybe they had completely legitimate excuses. But there is no chance that they weren’t invited. That is a nice theory, I do wonder where you draw the line with who exactly Jones invited.
My follow up question then is why did you feel the need to only comment on Toney not being there and didn't mention Engram, the guy that was #2 in the NFL in drops not working with his QB?
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Post by TCHOF on Jul 4, 2021 18:17:54 GMT -5
Nope I have no idea why neither of them went. Maybe they had completely legitimate excuses. But there is no chance that they weren’t invited. That is a nice theory, I do wonder where you draw the line with who exactly Jones invited.
My follow up question then is why did you feel the need to only comment on Toney not being there and didn't mention Engram, the guy that was #2 in the NFL in drops not working with his QB?
I know your thing is to contort every scenario to avoid admitting that the team or any player could ever possibly have made a mistake, and that is endearing. This board is better because you are on it
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Post by IrishMike on Jul 4, 2021 19:24:52 GMT -5
I know your thing is to contort every scenario to avoid admitting that the team or any player could ever possibly have made a mistake, and that is endearing. This board is better because you are on it Nah we very well could have made a mistake with Toney. I actually thought that when we drafted him because he has such little experience. I just don't think any of the BS that people tend to complain about with him has anything to do with his potential for failure. I will admit he was a mistake when he does something that proves it. Him not being in attendance at a workout that he may or may not have even been invited to is not a sign he was a mistake though. Neither is his rapping, nor his "football doesn't define me" tweet, nor his horrific spelling.
I also know your thing is to assume any player that shows any sign of something you don't like must be a failure in the making. It's a way to prepare yourself for the inevitable fall we will experience as Giants fans. This board is better with you too. Whether you know it or not we are two sides on the same coin.
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Post by TCHOF on Jul 4, 2021 22:42:58 GMT -5
I know your thing is to contort every scenario to avoid admitting that the team or any player could ever possibly have made a mistake, and that is endearing. This board is better because you are on it Nah we very well could have made a mistake with Toney. I actually thought that when we drafted him because he has such little experience. I just don't think any of the BS that people tend to complain about with him has anything to do with his potential for failure. I will admit he was a mistake when he does something that proves it. Him not being in attendance at a workout that he may or may not have even been invited to is not a sign he was a mistake though. Neither is his rapping, nor his "football doesn't define me" tweet, nor his horrific spelling.
I also know your thing is to assume any player that shows any sign of something you don't like must be a failure in the making. It's a way to prepare yourself for the inevitable fall we will experience as Giants fans. This board is better with you too. Whether you know it or not we are two sides on the same coin. I’m actually not a pessimist, but work ethic/motivational issues drive me crazy.
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te88
Special Teams
Posts: 1,984
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Post by te88 on Jul 5, 2021 6:51:52 GMT -5
Nah we very well could have made a mistake with Toney. I actually thought that when we drafted him because he has such little experience. I just don't think any of the BS that people tend to complain about with him has anything to do with his potential for failure. I will admit he was a mistake when he does something that proves it. Him not being in attendance at a workout that he may or may not have even been invited to is not a sign he was a mistake though. Neither is his rapping, nor his "football doesn't define me" tweet, nor his horrific spelling.
I also know your thing is to assume any player that shows any sign of something you don't like must be a failure in the making. It's a way to prepare yourself for the inevitable fall we will experience as Giants fans. This board is better with you too. Whether you know it or not we are two sides on the same coin. I’m actually not a pessimist, but work ethic/motivational issues drive me crazy. I think we just have to accept that Toney is immature and it’s going to be a learning process for him regarding how to be a pro. This is why he was pick 20 and not pick 11. The talent is there. But I think this first year will be a bumpy road for him in terms of figuring it all out. At the same time the positive way to look at this is maybe he has a very good sense of himself and is just taking his own approach. I can respect that. I have been in jobs where you get unsolicited advice thrown at you from the day you walk in the door and it can be aggravating trying to separate the wheat from the chaff. Sometimes it’s better to just smile and nod and then do what you think is best for yourself.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jul 5, 2021 9:19:28 GMT -5
I’m actually not a pessimist, but work ethic/motivational issues drive me crazy. I think we just have to accept that Toney is immature and it’s going to be a learning process for him regarding how to be a pro. This is why he was pick 20 and not pick 11. The talent is there. But I think this first year will be a bumpy road for him in terms of figuring it all out. At the same time the positive way to look at this is maybe he has a very good sense of himself and is just taking his own approach. I can respect that. I have been in jobs where you get unsolicited advice thrown at you from the day you walk in the door and it can be aggravating trying to separate the wheat from the chaff. Sometimes it’s better to just smile and nod and then do what you think is best for yourself. Excellent post, this year was his first fulll year as a WR in college this is new to him just heard Gregg Cossel say he has elite stop start ability and speed also when he studied his tape saw him grow and understand WR position better each week. He is a special athlete it's judges and Garrets / Tolberts job to get the best out of him and develop that ability.
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Post by IrishMike on Jul 5, 2021 9:50:38 GMT -5
I’m actually not a pessimist, but work ethic/motivational issues drive me crazy. I'm 100% on board with the work ethic thing. I'm just willing to wait for more info before I assume the worst. He grew up in one of the poorest towns, in one of the poorest states with a population of 12,000 and is now in the New York market. It's going to take him a minute to figure out how to handle things.
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Post by Roosevelt on Jul 5, 2021 11:26:53 GMT -5
I’m actually not a pessimist, but work ethic/motivational issues drive me crazy. I'm 100% on board with the work ethic thing. I'm just willing to wait for more info before I assume the worst. He grew up in one of the poorest towns, in one of the poorest states with a population of 12,000 and is now in the New York market. It's going to take him a minute to figure out how to handle things.
Lesson 1: You are a NY Giant. When the team holds a practice (mandatory or voluntary), show up.
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Post by vinnie on Jul 5, 2021 12:38:46 GMT -5
cuz he wasn’t the “sexy” pick and now people already have “I told you so” loaded... I honestly have no clue who these people think we should have taken at 20. Then again I doubt anyone will come out and say "this should have been our pick" because that removes the ability to come back in three years from now and use hindsight to make the better draft picks. Everyone that said we should take Rosen and Darnold instead of Barkley learned that lesson. Rosen never had a single chance to succeed, I actually feel bad for him on a professional level and Darnold was dealt a horrible hand as well. People already make excuses for DJ not having any weapons, having a horrible O line and having to deal with different OC’s and HC’s so why don’t Darnold and Rosen get the same excuses and benefit of the doubt?
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Post by Kruunch on Jul 5, 2021 13:22:20 GMT -5
I honestly have no clue who these people think we should have taken at 20. Then again I doubt anyone will come out and say "this should have been our pick" because that removes the ability to come back in three years from now and use hindsight to make the better draft picks. Everyone that said we should take Rosen and Darnold instead of Barkley learned that lesson. Rosen never had a single chance to succeed, I actually feel bad for him on a professional level and Darnold was dealt a horrible hand as well. People already make excuses for DJ not having any weapons, having a horrible O line and having to deal with different OC’s and HC’s so why don’t Darnold and Rosen get the same excuses and benefit of the doubt?Because they don’t play for our team. Fans give their players an extremely long leash, with a thousand excuses. It’s no different than when Eli was here. Before, he won his first super bowl. He was a punching bag for many, and an excuse magnet for others.
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Post by McCherry on Jul 5, 2021 13:22:27 GMT -5
I honestly have no clue who these people think we should have taken at 20. Then again I doubt anyone will come out and say "this should have been our pick" because that removes the ability to come back in three years from now and use hindsight to make the better draft picks. Everyone that said we should take Rosen and Darnold instead of Barkley learned that lesson. Rosen never had a single chance to succeed, I actually feel bad for him on a professional level and Darnold was dealt a horrible hand as well. People already make excuses for DJ not having any weapons, having a horrible O line and having to deal with different OC’s and HC’s so why don’t Darnold and Rosen get the same excuses and benefit of the doubt? Mainly because he’s just no good. 3 years, 3 teams, end of story. If he had any talent you would have seen it. There are also character issues there as well. Darnold may still have a chance in the right situation like where he is now. But that's been said about other Jet QB's. Fans talk about QB's chances to succeed. Both Burrow and Herbert thrived on bad teams with bad lines and a lack of talent around them. So has Jones, to be honest. If you have the talent, it will show even on a bad team.
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Post by IrishMike on Jul 5, 2021 13:23:31 GMT -5
Lesson 1: You are a NY Giant. When the team holds a practice (mandatory or voluntary), show up. Why wasn't he there?
Can we please stop acting like life isn't a thing? If a coach or teammate says it was an issue then fine, otherwise you are just assuming things. Lesson 1 should be delete twitter.
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Post by IrishMike on Jul 5, 2021 13:25:47 GMT -5
I honestly have no clue who these people think we should have taken at 20. Then again I doubt anyone will come out and say "this should have been our pick" because that removes the ability to come back in three years from now and use hindsight to make the better draft picks. Everyone that said we should take Rosen and Darnold instead of Barkley learned that lesson. Rosen never had a single chance to succeed, I actually feel bad for him on a professional level and Darnold was dealt a horrible hand as well. People already make excuses for DJ not having any weapons, having a horrible O line and having to deal with different OC’s and HC’s so why don’t Darnold and Rosen get the same excuses and benefit of the doubt? Rosen simply was not that good from the start. He had a chance, Zona moved on. He had a second chance, Dolphins moved on. If he was good enough neither team would have moved on.
The Jets moved on after 3 seasons. Doesn't everyone agree that if Jones doesn't show up this season he is gone? Seems he has the same chance Darnold got.
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Post by vinnie on Jul 5, 2021 20:56:00 GMT -5
Rosen never had a single chance to succeed, I actually feel bad for him on a professional level and Darnold was dealt a horrible hand as well. People already make excuses for DJ not having any weapons, having a horrible O line and having to deal with different OC’s and HC’s so why don’t Darnold and Rosen get the same excuses and benefit of the doubt? Mainly because he’s just no good. 3 years, 3 teams, end of story. If he had any talent you would have seen it. There are also character issues there as well. Darnold may still have a chance in the right situation like where he is now. But that's been said about other Jet QB's. Fans talk about QB's chances to succeed. Both Burrow and Herbert thrived on bad teams with bad lines and a lack of talent around them. So has Jones, to be honest. If you have the talent, it will show even on a bad team. Really? Under what circumstances would we have seen it? I really can’t think of a QB in the past 10-15 years that has been put in a worse situation than Rosen. I like how much emphasis you place on 3 teams, 3 years end of story. If it was only that simple. Do you even know what happened in AZ? If DJ was in Rosens same position, I guarantee he would also be on his 3rd team in 3 years. Jones has thrived? Bwahahahahahaha…maybe at turning the ball over.
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Post by vinnie on Jul 5, 2021 21:03:26 GMT -5
Rosen never had a single chance to succeed, I actually feel bad for him on a professional level and Darnold was dealt a horrible hand as well. People already make excuses for DJ not having any weapons, having a horrible O line and having to deal with different OC’s and HC’s so why don’t Darnold and Rosen get the same excuses and benefit of the doubt? Rosen simply was not that good from the start. He had a chance, Zona moved on. He had a second chance, Dolphins moved on. If he was good enough neither team would have moved on.
The Jets moved on after 3 seasons. Doesn't everyone agree that if Jones doesn't show up this season he is gone? Seems he has the same chance Darnold got.
Rosen never stood a chance at AZ or Miami. AZ changed OC’s half way through the season IIRC and fired their HC. Coach Bro was bringing in Murray no matter what. Miami literally just got done cleaning house, they got rid of just about every single decent player they had and were drafting Tua no matter what. I’m not saying Rosen was the answer but you can’t say he had a fair chance and if DJ gets all the excuses in the world than Rosen should have a lot more. So you think the Jets offense in Darnolds third year was equivalent to how you feel ours will be this year as far as the O line, WR’s, RB’s and TE go? Point being, DJ has and will have a lot better chance than Darnold ever had.
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Post by vinnie on Jul 5, 2021 21:09:58 GMT -5
Lesson 1: You are a NY Giant. When the team holds a practice (mandatory or voluntary), show up. Why wasn't he there?
Can we please stop acting like life isn't a thing? If a coach or teammate says it was an issue then fine, otherwise you are just assuming things. Lesson 1 should be delete twitter.
I wouldn’t expect a coach or teammate to say anything even if it was an issue, that type of thing should be kept in house. Judge and said teammate would lose a lot of respect by the team if they started publicly airing their dirty laundry and calling out teammates. Normally we don’t hear about anything until the shit has hit the fan but that doesn’t mean it’s still not an issue.
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Jul 5, 2021 21:50:26 GMT -5
I noticed he wasn't mentioned as one of participants which could lead to speculation about why.
Maybe he had more important things to do, or maybe they didn't invite him.
I was surprised to SQB there! Yeah, must be a good sign for him to be able to run some routes and things like that, even if he's taking it easy.
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Jul 5, 2021 22:06:05 GMT -5
Lots of crickets these days from those people...that used the change of forums to hide their original take and now say they wanted to trade back or take Nelson at 2.. Can't do that this year LOL for sure I see several folks who were hot and heavey for Darnold and MFing the Barkely pick have now changed to the trade down choice lol. I'll come out and say I hated the saquon barkley pick and still think it wasn't the right pick. I said then that they either draft a QB if they think one of them is a franchise QB, or trade down with a team that does think that they could get their franchise QB. If they drafted Darnold (or any of the QBs) I would have supported the pick then (even though I wasn't a fan of Rosen). It's obvious that Getty didn't believe that Darnold and Rosen were franchise QBs, and I'm guessing his wasn't into the mobile QB style of Allen and Jackson. But, I said it at the time that it the only way the Barkley pick would be seen as a good pick years down the road would be if Barkley was great AND the other top QB prospects all busted. I said then that no one would care that we got the next Adrian Peterson if it meant we passed on taking a franchise QB. And here we are, but a few years later and we don't go a week without some posters here reminding us that we could have had Josh Allen and how different our franchise could have been etc etc etc. The only way that possibly gets mitigated is if Jones becomes a consistent top 10 QB.
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Post by IrishMike on Jul 6, 2021 5:15:22 GMT -5
Rosen never stood a chance at AZ or Miami. AZ changed OC’s half way through the season IIRC and fired their HC. Coach Bro was bringing in Murray no matter what. Miami literally just got done cleaning house, they got rid of just about every single decent player they had and were drafting Tua no matter what. I’m not saying Rosen was the answer but you can’t say he had a fair chance and if DJ gets all the excuses in the world than Rosen should have a lot more. So you think the Jets offense in Darnolds third year was equivalent to how you feel ours will be this year as far as the O line, WR’s, RB’s and TE go? Point being, DJ has and will have a lot better chance than Darnold ever had. You are correct, he never stood a chance....because he isn't part of the "greatest QB class ever". Most QBs that get drafted early have a crap situation (see Mayfield and Allen from that same draft). Rosen was given the starting job in Miami after that. Do you honestly think if Rosen was a great QB he would not have been kept?
Ditto with Darnold. I'm not saying it's "fair". The world isn't fair. It's as fair as anyone gets in the NFL though. In the end no one will care that David Carr was sacked 10,000 times his rookie year. He is what he is in the end. Would Rosen or Darnold done any differently here is the real question. The answer is no because we have been a crappy team and they were not good enough to change that.
(For the record I thought the Jets should have kept Darnold. Rosen was a failure from the start.)
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Post by IrishMike on Jul 6, 2021 5:18:18 GMT -5
I'll come out and say I hated the saquon barkley pick and still think it wasn't the right pick. I said then that they either draft a QB if they think one of them is a franchise QB, or trade down with a team that does think that they could get their franchise QB. If they drafted Darnold (or any of the QBs) I would have supported the pick then (even though I wasn't a fan of Rosen). It's obvious that Getty didn't believe that Darnold and Rosen were franchise QBs, and I'm guessing his wasn't into the mobile QB style of Allen and Jackson. But, I said it at the time that it the only way the Barkley pick would be seen as a good pick years down the road would be if Barkley was great AND the other top QB prospects all busted. I said then that no one would care that we got the next Adrian Peterson if it meant we passed on taking a franchise QB. And here we are, but a few years later and we don't go a week without some posters here reminding us that we could have had Josh Allen and how different our franchise could have been etc etc etc. The only way that possibly gets mitigated is if Jones becomes a consistent top 10 QB. That will never change. On the old boards people reminded us that we could have had Shawn Merriman even after Eli won the SB. I promise that if Jones/Barkley win us a SB there will still be posters on this board saying we would have been better with Allen/Allen.
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Post by IrishMike on Jul 6, 2021 5:22:02 GMT -5
I wouldn’t expect a coach or teammate to say anything even if it was an issue, that type of thing should be kept in house. Judge and said teammate would lose a lot of respect by the team if they started publicly airing their dirty laundry and calling out teammates. Normally we don’t hear about anything until the shit has hit the fan but that doesn’t mean it’s still not an issue. That should be kept in house, but it's not. People give anonymous quotes, people tweet stuff, people let stuff slip all the time. More importantly they usually give some type of indication that it's an issue. I have not heard a peep from anyone involved. Not even some anonymous staff member.
You are right though, we don't know if it's an issue, which is why I'm not freaking out. Others can and that is fine. I'm just not into crucifying a kid while I don't know anything. To each their own.
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Post by vinnie on Jul 6, 2021 13:02:04 GMT -5
Rosen never stood a chance at AZ or Miami. AZ changed OC’s half way through the season IIRC and fired their HC. Coach Bro was bringing in Murray no matter what. Miami literally just got done cleaning house, they got rid of just about every single decent player they had and were drafting Tua no matter what. I’m not saying Rosen was the answer but you can’t say he had a fair chance and if DJ gets all the excuses in the world than Rosen should have a lot more. So you think the Jets offense in Darnolds third year was equivalent to how you feel ours will be this year as far as the O line, WR’s, RB’s and TE go? Point being, DJ has and will have a lot better chance than Darnold ever had. You are correct, he never stood a chance....because he isn't part of the "greatest QB class ever". Most QBs that get drafted early have a crap situation (see Mayfield and Allen from that same draft). Rosen was given the starting job in Miami after that. Do you honestly think if Rosen was a great QB he would not have been kept?
Ditto with Darnold. I'm not saying it's "fair". The world isn't fair. It's as fair as anyone gets in the NFL though. In the end no one will care that David Carr was sacked 10,000 times his rookie year. He is what he is in the end. Would Rosen or Darnold done any differently here is the real question. The answer is no because we have been a crappy team and they were not good enough to change that.
(For the record I thought the Jets should have kept Darnold. Rosen was a failure from the start.)
I never said Rosen was great, I just said he never had a chance to succeed and if DJ was in the same position as Rosen I’m quite sure he would have ended up just like him. I do agree with you though, if either one of them ended up here the results would have been the same. I’m not as bullish on DJ as some of you but I haven’t written him off either, I’m basically neutral and I could see him going either way but I am thinking he’ll be average to slightly above average at best. Hopefully I’m wrong.
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Post by repeatchamps on Jul 6, 2021 14:21:43 GMT -5
Rosen never had a single chance to succeed, I actually feel bad for him on a professional level and Darnold was dealt a horrible hand as well. People already make excuses for DJ not having any weapons, having a horrible O line and having to deal with different OC’s and HC’s so why don’t Darnold and Rosen get the same excuses and benefit of the doubt? Mainly because he’s just no good. 3 years, 3 teams, end of story. If he had any talent you would have seen it. There are also character issues there as well. Darnold may still have a chance in the right situation like where he is now. But that's been said about other Jet QB's. Fans talk about QB's chances to succeed. Both Burrow and Herbert thrived on bad teams with bad lines and a lack of talent around them. So has Jones, to be honest. If you have the talent, it will show even on a bad team. 100% agree on Rosen. He also had a concussion issue in college. I wanted the Giants to stay so far away from that kid for many reasons.
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Post by IrishMike on Jul 6, 2021 15:26:57 GMT -5
I never said Rosen was great, I just said he never had a chance to succeed and if DJ was in the same position as Rosen I’m quite sure he would have ended up just like him. I do agree with you though, if either one of them ended up here the results would have been the same. I’m not as bullish on DJ as some of you but I haven’t written him off either, I’m basically neutral and I could see him going either way but I am thinking he’ll be average to slightly above average at best. Hopefully I’m wrong. I guess for me the reason DJ has some optimism and Rosen didn't is because Rosen never showed a single thing to be optimistic about. He had a horrible rookie year. Jones was on a horrible team his rookie season and still showed flashes of greatness.
Is it fair that some people get more chances than other people? No. But that is life in the NFL. Rosen simply never showed any sign of being good enough to make someone say "hey wait we have something here", in two separate chances. Had he played like Baker Mayfield I doubt he would be out of the NFL.
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Post by McCherry on Jul 6, 2021 18:14:54 GMT -5
I never said Rosen was great, I just said he never had a chance to succeed and if DJ was in the same position as Rosen I’m quite sure he would have ended up just like him. I do agree with you though, if either one of them ended up here the results would have been the same. I’m not as bullish on DJ as some of you but I haven’t written him off either, I’m basically neutral and I could see him going either way but I am thinking he’ll be average to slightly above average at best. Hopefully I’m wrong. I guess for me the reason DJ has some optimism and Rosen didn't is because Rosen never showed a single thing to be optimistic about. He had a horrible rookie year. Jones was on a horrible team his rookie season and still showed flashes of greatness.
Is it fair that some people get more chances than other people? No. But that is life in the NFL. Rosen simply never showed any sign of being good enough to make someone say "hey wait we have something here", in two separate chances. Had he played like Baker Mayfield I doubt he would be out of the NFL.
Jones even might've been in a worse position than Rosen as a rookie and set records. The 2019 Giants are one of the all-time worst Giants teams ever. Jones has played in 2 systems in 2 years, with a talentless offense and one of the worst offensive lines in football. He's been given as less a chance to succeed as anyone.
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