|
Post by Kruunch on Sept 30, 2021 19:07:33 GMT -5
Why is it always black and white? There is grey you know. If a player is not playing up to “potential” critiquing him should not mean firing him into the sun. There was a time when fans held players to higher standards. Especially, first round picks. Now, it’s you tried your best, here’s an extension. I’m curious - who would you argue was someone we extended just because they tried their best? It’s a figure of speech. Point is, a player like Jones has a lot more to prove before we start talking about him being here long term.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2021 19:07:49 GMT -5
well he can’t win games by himself now can he? He’s the only reason they are in these games. How did mahomes look last Year behind that crap oline in that super bowl drubbing? How about this year? He must suck too. 1. Oh god, the "Mahomes" hot take, again. Like Moose and Maggie just said today, "can you stop with the Mahomes thing? Putting them in the same sentence is living in a bizzaro world." Mahomes 2021: 940 yards, 70 comp%, 9 TDs, 3 INTs, 112 QB rating Jones 2021: 782 yards, 65 comp%, 2 TDs, 0 INTs, 94 QB rating Stop mentioning Mahomes and Jones in the same sentence for your own sake. 2. Also, I never said Jones sucks. So stop presenting a strawman for you to argue against. 3. Sam Darnold is 3-0. I guess that means he's better than Mahomes? All of that lines up with the PFF grades so far this season, ironically 🤷🏿♂️ 🤫
|
|
njsean
Special Teams
Posts: 449
|
Post by njsean on Sept 30, 2021 19:41:42 GMT -5
I’m curious - who would you argue was someone we extended just because they tried their best? It’s a figure of speech. Point is, a player like Jones has a lot more to prove before we start talking about him being here long term. I don’t think most disagree. Anyone responding to people saying “he isn’t part of the problem” with that they mean “extend him 5 years!” is just as hyperbolic as your criticism of anyone who tells those who have complaints that it must mean they want them cut. Like you said. There’s gray. It’s like the more pessimistic fans who complain that posters harass them as not being “real” fans for being critical, but then they become just as sensitive to anyone saying anything positive about the team or player that it must mean they’re in love with the state of things and DG.
|
|
|
Post by Kruunch on Sept 30, 2021 19:47:57 GMT -5
It’s a figure of speech. Point is, a player like Jones has a lot more to prove before we start talking about him being here long term. I don’t think most disagree. Anyone responding to people saying “he isn’t part of the problem” with that they mean “extend him 5 years!” is just as hyperbolic as your criticism of anyone who tells those who have complaints that it must mean they want them cut. Like you said. There’s gray. It’s like the more pessimistic fans who complain that posters harass them as not being “real” fans for being critical, but then they become just as sensitive to anyone saying anything positive about the team or player that it must mean they’re in love with the state of things and DG. Like when the overly optimistic fans forget their time of the month and bleed all over the place.
|
|
njsean
Special Teams
Posts: 449
|
Post by njsean on Sept 30, 2021 19:51:23 GMT -5
I don’t think most disagree. Anyone responding to people saying “he isn’t part of the problem” with that they mean “extend him 5 years!” is just as hyperbolic as your criticism of anyone who tells those who have complaints that it must mean they want them cut. Like you said. There’s gray. It’s like the more pessimistic fans who complain that posters harass them as not being “real” fans for being critical, but then they become just as sensitive to anyone saying anything positive about the team or player that it must mean they’re in love with the state of things and DG. Like when the overly optimistic fans forget their time of the month and bleed all over the place. Not exactly sure what action that metaphor exactly describes, but thanks for the visual. It sure sounds annoying.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2021 19:52:38 GMT -5
Like when the overly optimistic fans forget their time of the month and bleed all over the place. Not exactly sure what action that metaphor exactly describes, but thanks for the visual. It sure sounds annoying. 👋🏿 He's probably talking about me 🙂
|
|
njsean
Special Teams
Posts: 449
|
Post by njsean on Sept 30, 2021 19:53:49 GMT -5
Not exactly sure what action that metaphor exactly describes, but thanks for the visual. It sure sounds annoying. 👋🏿 He's probably talking about me 🙂 If the pad fits…
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2021 19:55:03 GMT -5
👋🏿 He's probably talking about me 🙂 If the pad fits… i gotta acknowledge at least one "if it ain't directed directly at me..." per day ... for prespective lol (jay-z reference) "if it ain't directed directly at me, I don't respect it"
|
|
|
Post by piddy283 on Sept 30, 2021 22:12:06 GMT -5
IF we decide Jones is our long term QB, which is still a huge "if," we'll have flexibility next draft. Without doing a shred of research at this point, unless there's a legit stud when we pick I'd be fine with trading back with both picks. We're going to be strapped for cash next off-season so the more picks the merrier. We can even add additional picks to the 2023 draft by trading back. Can we draft a new OC? Asking for a friend. "we're going to be strapped for cash next off-season so more picks the merrier." I dont agree but i respect the #duality Cool.
|
|
|
Post by piddy283 on Sept 30, 2021 22:15:21 GMT -5
IF we decide Jones is our long term QB, which is still a huge "if," we'll have flexibility next draft. Without doing a shred of research at this point, unless there's a legit stud when we pick I'd be fine with trading back with both picks. We're going to be strapped for cash next off-season so the more picks the merrier. We can even add additional picks to the 2023 draft by trading back. Can we draft a new OC? Asking for a friend. Another by product for a week QB class like this is shaping up to be is nobody is going to be looking to trade up...especially as deep in many positions on defense Are we sure it's a weak QB class? If DJ is the long term QB it's a moot point. If he's not, it seems over the last few years random QB's have turned out to be the "must have" come draft day. I refuse to do any off-season research 3 weeks in, so I honestly have no clue what positions are supposed to be weak or strong, but between the Bears and Giants I expect we'll have at least one top-5 pick.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2021 22:36:40 GMT -5
Another by product for a week QB class like this is shaping up to be is nobody is going to be looking to trade up...especially as deep in many positions on defense Are we sure it's a weak QB class? If DJ is the long term QB it's a moot point. If he's not, it seems over the last few years random QB's have turned out to be the "must have" come draft day. I refuse to do any off-season research 3 weeks in, so I honestly have no clue what positions are supposed to be weak or strong, but between the Bears and Giants I expect we'll have at least one top-5 pick. same .. I only pay attention to Notre Dame and whoever they're playing until about a week outside of the playoffs
|
|
|
Post by moecoastie on Oct 2, 2021 1:05:00 GMT -5
Another by product for a week QB class like this is shaping up to be is nobody is going to be looking to trade up...especially as deep in many positions on defense Are we sure it's a weak QB class? If DJ is the long term QB it's a moot point. If he's not, it seems over the last few years random QB's have turned out to be the "must have" come draft day. I refuse to do any off-season research 3 weeks in, so I honestly have no clue what positions are supposed to be weak or strong, but between the Bears and Giants I expect we'll have at least one top-5 pick. Every QB class is weak compared to 2018 (the best QB class since '04). Sam Darnold is a sure fire HOF, I mean Josh Rosen...wait...I mean Lamar Jackson...duh, everyone knew Josh Allen was a stud
|
|
|
Post by Providence on Oct 2, 2021 6:59:13 GMT -5
Jones isn't the problem because everything else around him is so bad that he doesn't have a chance to be the problem.
|
|
|
Post by piddy283 on Oct 2, 2021 11:38:18 GMT -5
Jones isn't the problem because everything else around him is so bad that he doesn't have a chance to be the problem. If all remains the same in terms of his play, would you be comfortable giving Jones a long term contract at this point? I wouldn't, and that is in no way a knock against him. He just hasn't shown me enough for me to be confident he can carry a team unless everything else around him is perfect.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2021 11:43:37 GMT -5
This is about Justin Fields, bit it's funny how even players know when something is wrong with the opposing team's playcalling.
|
|
|
Post by giantlegacy on Oct 2, 2021 12:05:41 GMT -5
Jones isn't the problem because everything else around him is so bad that he doesn't have a chance to be the problem. If all remains the same in terms of his play, would you be comfortable giving Jones a long term contract at this point? I wouldn't, and that is in no way a knock against him. He just hasn't shown me enough for me to be confident he can carry a team unless everything else around him is perfect. But we don't even know this yet because he hasn't been given that opportunity to. Very few show this ability till ywar 3/4. .. Contrary to popular belief top 10 picks at QB actually need a good surrounding cast of o linemen and weapons to actually help quicken the learning process and mak it easier for tbe game to slow down Just look at Lawrence...proof even with a prodigy you can't just insert qb,add water and instant elite qb that carries entire team on back to playoffs
|
|
|
Post by giantlegacy on Oct 2, 2021 12:08:06 GMT -5
This is about Justin Fields, bit it's funny how even players know when something is wrong with the opposing team's playcalling. The Bears have been a QB graveyard since Sid Lucknan Fields has a similar skill set in many way to the guy Nagy used to get his HC job in Mahomes... Yet
|
|
|
Post by imgrate on Oct 2, 2021 12:16:58 GMT -5
This is about Justin Fields, bit it's funny how even players know when something is wrong with the opposing team's playcalling. The Bears have been a QB graveyard since Sid Lucknan Fields has a similar skill set in many way to the guy Nagy used to get his HC job in Mahomes... Yet Maybe I haven't watch Fields enough, but I'm not seeing the similarities. What sticks out to you?
|
|
|
Post by giantlegacy on Oct 2, 2021 12:23:44 GMT -5
The Bears have been a QB graveyard since Sid Lucknan Fields has a similar skill set in many way to the guy Nagy used to get his HC job in Mahomes... Yet Maybe I haven't watch Fields enough, but I'm not seeing the similarities. What sticks out to you? Mobile ane somewhat big arm,able to improvise...
|
|
|
Post by piddy283 on Oct 2, 2021 18:19:58 GMT -5
If all remains the same in terms of his play, would you be comfortable giving Jones a long term contract at this point? I wouldn't, and that is in no way a knock against him. He just hasn't shown me enough for me to be confident he can carry a team unless everything else around him is perfect. But we don't even know this yet because he hasn't been given that opportunity to. Very few show this ability till ywar 3/4. .. Contrary to popular belief top 10 picks at QB actually need a good surrounding cast of o linemen and weapons to actually help quicken the learning process and mak it easier for tbe game to slow down Just look at Lawrence...proof even with a prodigy you can't just insert qb,add water and instant elite qb that carries entire team on back to playoffs I guess I'll ask you then, would you be comfortable giving Jones a long term contract at this point? I'm not. I'm not ready to pay for the unknown and I wouldn't feel comfortable assuming Jones will take the next step knowing we'd be handcuffed to improve those other positions due to his presumed large contract.
|
|
|
Post by piddy283 on Oct 2, 2021 18:24:41 GMT -5
But we don't even know this yet because he hasn't been given that opportunity to. Very few show this ability till ywar 3/4. .. Contrary to popular belief top 10 picks at QB actually need a good surrounding cast of o linemen and weapons to actually help quicken the learning process and mak it easier for tbe game to slow down Just look at Lawrence...proof even with a prodigy you can't just insert qb,add water and instant elite qb that carries entire team on back to playoffs I guess I'll ask you then, would you be comfortable giving Jones a long term contract at this point? I'm not. I'm not ready to pay for the unknown and I wouldn't feel comfortable assuming Jones will take the next step knowing we'd be handcuffed to improve those other positions due to his presumed large contract. We obviously have another 2-3 years to decide with Jones based on 5th year and franchise tags. The real question at this point would be, assuming Jones continues to play the way he has so far this year, would you rather us bolster the rest of the roster and roll with Jones or would you rather draft another QB if we end up with a top-5 pick next year?
|
|
|
Post by giantlegacy on Oct 2, 2021 18:31:02 GMT -5
I guess I'll ask you then, would you be comfortable giving Jones a long term contract at this point? I'm not. I'm not ready to pay for the unknown and I wouldn't feel comfortable assuming Jones will take the next step knowing we'd be handcuffed to improve those other positions due to his presumed large contract. We obviously have another 2-3 years to decide with Jones based on 5th year and franchise tags. The real question at this point would be, assuming Jones continues to play the way he has so far this year, would you rather us bolster the rest of the roster and roll with Jones or would you rather draft another QB if we end up with a top-5 pick next year? I've only seen maybe one QB worthy of a top 5 pick...Ratler... Odds are the team with ybe worst record will be in the QB market None of these other guys feel like they would be a guaranteed improvement So I'd rather really add trench meat on both lines (a Neal/Davis double shot would be sick )
|
|
|
Post by Providence on Oct 3, 2021 8:31:12 GMT -5
Jones isn't the problem because everything else around him is so bad that he doesn't have a chance to be the problem. If all remains the same in terms of his play, would you be comfortable giving Jones a long term contract at this point? I wouldn't, and that is in no way a knock against him. He just hasn't shown me enough for me to be confident he can carry a team unless everything else around him is perfect. I feel the same way. He's playing well, and that's awesome. But I wouldn't give him a long term contract. I'm fine with keeping him around while we wait for a promising rookie prospect.
|
|
njsean
Special Teams
Posts: 449
|
Post by njsean on Oct 3, 2021 11:21:37 GMT -5
But we don't even know this yet because he hasn't been given that opportunity to. Very few show this ability till ywar 3/4. .. Contrary to popular belief top 10 picks at QB actually need a good surrounding cast of o linemen and weapons to actually help quicken the learning process and mak it easier for tbe game to slow down Just look at Lawrence...proof even with a prodigy you can't just insert qb,add water and instant elite qb that carries entire team on back to playoffs First it's, "let's see the leap he makes in year 2." Then it's, "don't be so impatient. Everyone knows it's year 3 that defines a QB." Now it's, "we have to wait until year 3 or 4..." Next season it will be, "there's a reason why teams have the ability to exercise a 5th year on a 1st round pick's rookie deal.... you gotta wait until year 5 before judging Jones." What is the point you’re making here? It sounds different than this one: I've said it many times. There's no reason to move on from Jones this offseason. He's showing progression. He has good tools as a QB. Exercise his fifth and he remains a cheap viable QB. If he doesn't take the leap this year and next, then you look at QBs in the 2023 draft or FA. I think we’re all pretty much on the same page. We want to seem him continue to develop, but don’t want to either sign or cut bait until we have more info. Edit: If we should lose today, I actually suspect he’s going to have a pretty rancid stat line. You can’t keep losing games and avoid turnovers. It’s about to break.
|
|
njsean
Special Teams
Posts: 449
|
Post by njsean on Oct 3, 2021 11:33:09 GMT -5
What is the point you’re making here? It sounds different than this one: I think we’re all pretty much on the same page. We want to seem him continue to develop, but don’t want to either sign or cut bait until we have more info. Edit: If we should lose today, I actually suspect he’s going to have a pretty rancid stat line. You can’t keep losing games and avoid turnovers. It’s about to break. Those two points are completely different. I've clearly stated that I do not believe Jones is the answer at QB. But I've also stated that he's a serviceable QB and very cheap to keep at the most expensive position for the next two years. What's so hard to understand about that? I'm not waiting until year 4 or 5 to see if he transforms into a vastly greater QB. He is who he is. If we’re going to be waiting anyway because, like you say, he’s cheap, we might as well hope while we’re at it. What’s the difference?
|
|
|
Post by Sarcasman on Oct 3, 2021 11:50:34 GMT -5
We obviously have another 2-3 years to decide with Jones based on 5th year and franchise tags. The real question at this point would be, assuming Jones continues to play the way he has so far this year, would you rather us bolster the rest of the roster and roll with Jones or would you rather draft another QB if we end up with a top-5 pick next year? I've only seen maybe one QB worthy of a top 5 pick...Ratler... Odds are the team with ybe worst record will be in the QB market None of these other guys feel like they would be a guaranteed improvement So I'd rather really add trench meat on both lines (a Neal/Davis double shot would be sick ) Higher than ordinary expectations of a draft pick based on where they were picked in the top 10 or 20 is solely a media contrivance, nothing more.
|
|
|
Post by giantlegacy on Oct 3, 2021 12:02:17 GMT -5
Those two points are completely different. I've clearly stated that I do not believe Jones is the answer at QB. But I've also stated that he's a serviceable QB and very cheap to keep at the most expensive position for the next two years. What's so hard to understand about that? I'm not waiting until year 4 or 5 to see if he transforms into a vastly greater QB. He is who he is. If we’re going to be waiting anyway because, like you say, he’s cheap, we might as well hope while we’re at it. What’s the difference? Because people want instant gratification when many times it's not possible and would rather change for change sake ... Who in this upcoming draft is that much of a guarantee to be better even that Jones at this level? Yes the upside is qb on rookie deal for a few more years but it seems a segment of this fanbase decided the second this pick was made that he wasn't the guy and have been looking for any moment to want to get a new qb. How has that gone for franchises like the Jets,who have done this and it looks exactly the same while the guy they traded looks like he is playing near the level many have said he would ? Unfortunately we have the worst case scenario where our guy is caught in a horrible system that he has learned how to at this moment play good enough in but makes it very hard to elevate above the system This is how bad decisions are made
|
|
|
Post by nobait4me on Oct 3, 2021 14:14:01 GMT -5
Danny Dimes Ain't The Problem! He ain't the answer either. Consider this: Jones is playing decently enough but not well enough to win games. That's not the mark of a 6th overall pick "franchise QB." I guess if Jones can go out and play Linebacker and defensive back oh and catch his own passes you can blame him. Should he through to himself instead of Engram. He is playing so much better than last season as is Thomas.
|
|
|
Post by nobait4me on Oct 3, 2021 14:15:21 GMT -5
better yes- winning games ? No Please stop. You're contending that if the Giants had the best QB in the NFL they would be better but still winless. I just can't. do you think our receivers would not drop passes, or do you think it may make our Pass rush better?
|
|
|
Post by Jomo on Oct 3, 2021 14:47:12 GMT -5
Playing really well
|
|