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Post by NAVY2323(ret) on Oct 27, 2021 9:05:14 GMT -5
Judge is a lot of talk, that’s my honest opinion. Perhaps it’s my military experiences, but nothing irritates me more in a leader than talking a good game and not playing one. Even his “the fish stinks” nonsense struck me as disingenuous. Again, this is just my opinion. I think my BS meter pings pretty high and most of the time when Judge speaks its chirping. This is just like anything else where I feel negative about the Giants, I’d much rather be wrong. Just sharing opinions. I totally agree he talks way too much. I have been saying that he needs to cut his pressers down to 4 minutes or less. So you dont think he holds himself accountable? I feel he does eve prior to his fish statement. In fairness it seemed to play well with the players based on their effort Sunday. I guess I’m just a fan of Belichek and Parcells where they never give you too much. One of the things I love about Thibs as the Knicks coach.
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Post by kerryisdaman on Oct 27, 2021 10:53:19 GMT -5
The Giants looked to be building something with Mark Haynes, Phil Simms, and LT under Ray Perkins. With some help from Scott Brunner and Rob Carpenter (trade) we made the playoffs and beat Philly in the 1981 playoffs. We actually hung in there a bit vs the eventual champion 49ers.
Slight correction for a post above. Parcells did not have Carl Banks in his 3-12-1 season. We had Brad Van Pelt back then who was a great player as well but in his 30's by then.
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Post by Roosevelt on Oct 27, 2021 11:25:14 GMT -5
The Giants looked to be building something with Mark Haynes, Phil Simms, and LT under Ray Perkins. With some help from Scott Brunner and Rob Carpenter (trade) we made the playoffs and beat Philly in the 1981 playoffs. We actually hung in there a bit vs the eventual champion 49ers. Slight correction for a post above. Parcells did not have Carl Banks in his 3-12-1 season. We had Brad Van Pelt back then who was a great player as well but in his 30's by then.
Van Pelt was a one of our best players during a lousy time, and Brian Kelley was very good too, but they were not among the players that Parcells deemed "his guys" for whatever reason and didn't return in '84.
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Post by GameTime on Oct 27, 2021 11:29:16 GMT -5
I totally agree he talks way too much. I have been saying that he needs to cut his pressers down to 4 minutes or less. So you dont think he holds himself accountable? I feel he does eve prior to his fish statement. In fairness it seemed to play well with the players based on their effort Sunday. I guess I’m just a fan of Belichek and Parcells where they never give you too much. One of the things I love about Thibs as the Knicks coach. yep...Judge talks too much but he doesnt really give away too much.
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Post by Roosevelt on Oct 27, 2021 11:30:24 GMT -5
I totally agree he talks way too much. I have been saying that he needs to cut his pressers down to 4 minutes or less. So you dont think he holds himself accountable? I feel he does eve prior to his fish statement. In fairness it seemed to play well with the players based on their effort Sunday. I guess I’m just a fan of Belichek and Parcells where they never give you too much. One of the things I love about Thibs as the Knicks coach.
I found Judge to be a refreshing change of pace in his communications skills, but that is secondary to the product we see on the field and that product includes coaching.
He clearly is a work in progress, but his teams seem to like him and play hard for him and that's great but in order for him to stick around they must begin to win.
I'm looking forward to Monday night to see if we can take a step forward or if we take a step back once again.
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Post by Rangers13 on Oct 27, 2021 11:35:58 GMT -5
In fairness it seemed to play well with the players based on their effort Sunday. I guess I’m just a fan of Belichek and Parcells where they never give you too much. One of the things I love about Thibs as the Knicks coach.
I found Judge to be a refreshing change of pace in his communications skills, but that is secondary to the product we see on the field and that product includes coaching.
He clearly is a work in progress, but his teams seem to like him and play hard for him and that's great but in order for him to stick around they must begin to win.
I'm looking forward to Monday night to see if we can take a step forward or if we take a step back once again.
very refreshing imo. Those from the Parcells era i think sensed something. I don’t think he tweaks players like Parcells but i thought his delivery was refreshing. Coughlin was good yet he really had to modify his take with this generation of player. Parcells was such a perfect blend . . . although he wanted to jump ship too often.
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Post by IrishMike on Oct 27, 2021 21:25:47 GMT -5
At this point in both careers:
Judge: 8-15 .348
Parcells: 7-15-1 .304
Them are the facts. Do with them what you want.
After all, you watch football every Sunday right? You might even play Madden. And some of us may have even put on the pads which raises our fandom in the eyes of one or maybe two.
I pointed this out during that "Bring back Parcells/Young thread". If we get 8 wins this year DG will tie George Young for wins in first four seasons as well (82 was strike shortened of course). People have a hard time admitting they would have tried to chase Bill and Young out of town as well.
It takes time to build shit that lasts. HCs should get 5 years to try and win the SB unless they lose the team.
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Post by IrishMike on Oct 27, 2021 21:39:40 GMT -5
5 years in today's NFL doesn't equate to 5 years in the NFL pre salary cap and pre free agency. Windows are much shorter today (unless you constantly crush your drafts, which we know most teams do not). I had posted the stats a while back. Almost every coach (no matter the era) wins their first SB with a team within the first 5 years of being there. Unless you have Andy Reid or Bill Cowher type coaches that you have 100% faith in then you should move on after 5 years. On the flip side most of those coaches to win were in place 3-5 years before winning (1-2 years is rare). This transcends eras. Back then, now, it does not matter. It takes time to build a winner. The difference is the world we live in wants instant results and use social media as a way to force the owners hands.
Of course you want to see some type of positive trend, but that does not always appear in the first two years. I would follow this stat line like the bible if I owned a team. Give these guys time. Hell two years is barely enough time to get your players in place. If they lose the team like Mac did, then you can move on. If Judge does not show some type of positive trend in another year or two then move on. 2 years is simply not enough time. They start making dumb decisions to save their job by winning now instead of building something that lasts.
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Post by Roosevelt on Oct 27, 2021 21:54:12 GMT -5
At this point in both careers:
Judge: 8-15 .348
Parcells: 7-15-1 .304
Them are the facts. Do with them what you want.
After all, you watch football every Sunday right? You might even play Madden. And some of us may have even put on the pads which raises our fandom in the eyes of one or maybe two.
I pointed this out during that "Bring back Parcells/Young thread". If we get 8 wins this year DG will tie George Young for wins in first four seasons as well (82 was strike shortened of course). People have a hard time admitting they would have tried to chase Bill and Young out of town as well.
It takes time to build shit that lasts. HCs should get 5 years to try and win the SB unless they lose the team.
I'd agree as long as they're showing signs of continued improvement.
The injuries to this team have not allowed us to effectively judge them so far. No pun intended.
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Post by giantlegacy on Oct 27, 2021 21:56:55 GMT -5
I pointed this out during that "Bring back Parcells/Young thread". If we get 8 wins this year DG will tie George Young for wins in first four seasons as well (82 was strike shortened of course). People have a hard time admitting they would have tried to chase Bill and Young out of town as well.
It takes time to build shit that lasts. HCs should get 5 years to try and win the SB unless they lose the team.
I'd agree as long as they're showing signs of continued improvement.
The injuries to this team have not allowed us to effectively judge them so far. No pun intended. At least on offense Unfortunately the defense really can't use the injury out..I actually suspect it's coaching/fixing something that wasn't broken
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mendy
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Post by mendy on Oct 28, 2021 3:52:19 GMT -5
I'd agree as long as they're showing signs of continued improvement.
The injuries to this team have not allowed us to effectively judge them so far. No pun intended. At least on offense Unfortunately the defense really can't use the injury out..I actually suspect it's coaching/fixing something that wasn't broken Losing a Middle LBer like Blake Martinez is a big loss and now Peppers is gone ,I would say that's significant .We have also lost others on D like Hillard and Smith as well as a few DB's for a time.
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mendy
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Post by mendy on Oct 28, 2021 3:57:06 GMT -5
I pointed this out during that "Bring back Parcells/Young thread". If we get 8 wins this year DG will tie George Young for wins in first four seasons as well (82 was strike shortened of course). People have a hard time admitting they would have tried to chase Bill and Young out of town as well. It takes time to build shit that lasts. HCs should get 5 years to try and win the SB unless they lose the team.
5 years in today's NFL doesn't equate to 5 years in the NFL pre salary cap and pre free agency. Windows are much shorter today (unless you constantly crush your drafts, which we know most teams do not). Unless you're the Steelers or Patriots .Continuity is overlook by fans.
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Post by jaymas on Oct 28, 2021 7:21:24 GMT -5
At least on offense Unfortunately the defense really can't use the injury out..I actually suspect it's coaching/fixing something that wasn't broken Losing a Middle LBer like Blake Martinez is a big loss and now Peppers is gone ,I would say that's significant .We have also lost others on D like Hillard and Smith as well as a few DB's for a time. Except that's pretty much what every team goes through. The offense is where the ravaging happened.
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Post by Nite on Oct 28, 2021 8:17:01 GMT -5
5 years in today's NFL doesn't equate to 5 years in the NFL pre salary cap and pre free agency. Windows are much shorter today (unless you constantly crush your drafts, which we know most teams do not). Unless you're the Steelers or Patriots .Continuity is overlook by fans. Thats a great concept.... for the 1970s Also works great if you are the Steelers, 1970s era Cowboys, 2000 era Patriots If you are the NYG 2010 onwards then not so well (oh yeah I know we won a SB in 2011 but no playoff wins since - 10 years). Unless mediocrity is your goal then continuity is great. The NYG have excelled in this. So no worries it appears we will continue this way..Many fans will pretend to not like it.. Really ****ing strange to me
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Post by Bigjeep on Oct 28, 2021 8:19:44 GMT -5
At this point in both careers:
Judge: 8-15 .348
Parcells: 7-15-1 .304
Them are the facts. Do with them what you want.
After all, you watch football every Sunday right? You might even play Madden. And some of us may have even put on the pads which raises our fandom in the eyes of one or maybe two.
Facts can be deceiving! Back then Pete Roselle had hired George Young as GM. Today we have Gettleman! Parcells got the Job when our HC quit for a College job. We were drafting our future SB players, today we are not! Parcells won 3 games his first year, so Parcells had 5 wins at this point and won 9 games. Judge has 2 so far. Parcells first 3 years Season League Team G W L T 1983 NFL New York Giants 16 -- 3 12 1 .219 1984 NFL New York Giants 16 -- 9 7 0 .563 2 1 1 .500 1985 NFL New York Giants 16 -- 10 6 0 .625 2 1 1 .500
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Post by ratbastich on Oct 28, 2021 11:59:44 GMT -5
So, if we're going to throw that out as a comparison we might as well throw this on out too to show how insignificant that number is and how the paths can still veer and how history really means nothing:
Ray Handley 1991 8-8 Joe Judge 2020 6-10
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Post by jaymas on Oct 28, 2021 12:03:42 GMT -5
So, if we're going to throw that out as a comparison we might as well throw this on out too to show how insignificant that number is and how the paths can still veer and how history really means nothing: Ray Handley 1991 8-8 Joe Judge 2020 6-10 To be fair, the Parcells comparison is more about the situations, coaches walking into a clear building process, and designing new programs. Ray Handley inherited the literal super bowl champions.
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Post by Roosevelt on Oct 28, 2021 12:29:57 GMT -5
So, if we're going to throw that out as a comparison we might as well throw this on out too to show how insignificant that number is and how the paths can still veer and how history really means nothing: Ray Handley 1991 8-8 Joe Judge 2020 6-10 I believe Ray Handley's career record was better than our last 3 HC's to date. That does tells us something.
I find it pretty interesting to hear the opinions expressed based on the OP, although I thought I was pretty clear in my point that I wasn't suggesting how it should be interpreted.
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Post by Roosevelt on Oct 28, 2021 14:15:24 GMT -5
I believe Ray Handley's career record was better than our last 3 HC's to date. That does tells us something. I find it pretty interesting to hear the opinions expressed based on the OP, although I thought I was pretty clear in my point that I wasn't suggesting how it should be interpreted.
If that’s true about Handley’s record it’s kind of sad. But like someone mentioned above: the state of the teams the last three head coaches have inherited are far worse than what Handley was handed. That's true. Actually I was wrong about Handley although he did have the most wins. McAdoo had the best record.
McAdoo
| 13 | 15 | .464 | Handley | 14 | 18 | .438 | Judge | 8 | 15 | .347 | Shurmur | 9 | 23 | .281 |
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Post by Kruunch on Oct 28, 2021 20:18:22 GMT -5
If that’s true about Handley’s record it’s kind of sad. But like someone mentioned above: the state of the teams the last three head coaches have inherited are far worse than what Handley was handed. That's true. Actually I was wrong about Handley although he did have the most wins. McAdoo had the best record.
McAdoo
| 13 | 15 | .464 | Handley | 14 | 18 | .438 | Judge | 8 | 15 | .347 | Shurmur | 9 | 23 | .281 |
Talk about the four horsemen of the apocalypse.
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mendy
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Post by mendy on Oct 28, 2021 20:20:04 GMT -5
Unless you're the Steelers or Patriots .Continuity is overlook by fans. Thats a great concept.... for the 1970s Also works great if you are the Steelers, 1970s era Cowboys, 2000 era Patriots If you are the NYG 2010 onwards then not so well (oh yeah I know we won a SB in 2011 but no playoff wins since - 10 years). Unless mediocrity is your goal then continuity is great. The NYG have excelled in this. So no worries it appears we will continue this way..Many fans will pretend to not like it.. Really ****ing strange to me The Steelers are on their third HC in almost 50 years(Noll 1969) , As for the Patriots 9 Super bowls winning 6 is pretty good, Continuity means alot.
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mendy
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Post by mendy on Oct 28, 2021 20:22:41 GMT -5
So, if we're going to throw that out as a comparison we might as well throw this on out too to show how insignificant that number is and how the paths can still veer and how history really means nothing: Ray Handley 1991 8-8 Joe Judge 2020 6-10 I believe Ray Handley's career record was better than our last 3 HC's to date. That does tells us something.
I find it pretty interesting to hear the opinions expressed based on the OP, although I thought I was pretty clear in my point that I wasn't suggesting how it should be interpreted.
Look at the team Ray Handley was handed compared to the JJ team..
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mendy
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Posts: 3,987
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Post by mendy on Oct 28, 2021 20:24:50 GMT -5
At this point in both careers:
Judge: 8-15 .348
Parcells: 7-15-1 .304
Them are the facts. Do with them what you want.
After all, you watch football every Sunday right? You might even play Madden. And some of us may have even put on the pads which raises our fandom in the eyes of one or maybe two.
Facts can be deceiving! Back then Pete Roselle had hired George Young as GM. Today we have Gettleman! Parcells got the Job when our HC quit for a College job. We were drafting our future SB players, today we are not! Parcells won 3 games his first year, so Parcells had 5 wins at this point and won 9 games. Judge has 2 so far. Parcells first 3 years Season League Team G W L T 1983 NFL New York Giants 16 -- 3 12 1 .219 1984 NFL New York Giants 16 -- 9 7 0 .563 2 1 1 .500 1985 NFL New York Giants 16 -- 10 6 0 .625 2 1 1 .500 I thought the comparison was for the first two seasons , same time frame of JJ.
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Post by Roosevelt on Oct 28, 2021 22:38:35 GMT -5
At this point in both careers:
Judge: 8-15 .348
Parcells: 7-15-1 .304
Them are the facts. Do with them what you want.
After all, you watch football every Sunday right? You might even play Madden. And some of us may have even put on the pads which raises our fandom in the eyes of one or maybe two.
Facts can be deceiving! Back then Pete Roselle had hired George Young as GM. Today we have Gettleman! Parcells got the Job when our HC quit for a College job. We were drafting our future SB players, today we are not! Parcells won 3 games his first year, so Parcells had 5 wins at this point and won 9 games. Judge has 2 so far. Parcells first 3 years Season League Team G W L T 1983 NFL New York Giants 16 -- 3 12 1 .219 1984 NFL New York Giants 16 -- 9 7 0 .563 2 1 1 .500 1985 NFL New York Giants 16 -- 10 6 0 .625 2 1 1 .500
Whoever told you Pete Roselle hired George Young you might not want to listen to because it never happened - Fact.
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Post by Nite on Oct 29, 2021 17:40:13 GMT -5
Thats a great concept.... for the 1970s Also works great if you are the Steelers, 1970s era Cowboys, 2000 era Patriots If you are the NYG 2010 onwards then not so well (oh yeah I know we won a SB in 2011 but no playoff wins since - 10 years). Unless mediocrity is your goal then continuity is great. The NYG have excelled in this. So no worries it appears we will continue this way..Many fans will pretend to not like it.. Really ****ing strange to me The Steelers are on their third HC in almost 50 years(Noll 1969) , As for the Patriots 9 Super bowls winning 6 is pretty good, Continuity means alot. For teams that draft well, coaches well, yeah it helps. That doesn't apply to the NYG. What we will do is to continue being bad
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mendy
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Post by mendy on Oct 29, 2021 18:26:07 GMT -5
The Steelers are on their third HC in almost 50 years(Noll 1969) , As for the Patriots 9 Super bowls winning 6 is pretty good, Continuity means alot. For teams that draft well, coaches well, yeah it helps. That doesn't apply to the NYG. What we will do is to continue being bad .............which leads me back to my original point that continuity matters.
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Post by Nite on Oct 30, 2021 0:12:09 GMT -5
For teams that draft well, coaches well, yeah it helps. That doesn't apply to the NYG. What we will do is to continue being bad .............which leads me back to my original point that continuity matters. Doc Brown's time machine may be helpful..For Giants fans living in the 21st century continuity matters if you enjoy watching losing football. That is the only continuity that will happen
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te88
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Post by te88 on Oct 30, 2021 4:01:43 GMT -5
Facts can be deceiving! Back then Pete Roselle had hired George Young as GM. Today we have Gettleman! Parcells got the Job when our HC quit for a College job. We were drafting our future SB players, today we are not! Parcells won 3 games his first year, so Parcells had 5 wins at this point and won 9 games. Judge has 2 so far. Parcells first 3 years Season League Team G W L T 1983 NFL New York Giants 16 -- 3 12 1 .219 1984 NFL New York Giants 16 -- 9 7 0 .563 2 1 1 .500 1985 NFL New York Giants 16 -- 10 6 0 .625 2 1 1 .500
Whoever told you Pete Roselle hired George Young you might not want to listen to because it never happened - Fact.
That’s correct. Wellington wanted to hire him but knew Tim would not do it if he suggested it. So he got Rozelle to make the suggestion and Rozelle framed Young as a “compromise” But who hired Young isn’t what matters. It’s the level on control and the level of change that Young brought to the organization. He had way more control than any other GM before or since and he basically completely upended the entire football operation and built it anew. Young represented a complete overhaul and a recognition that the Maras didn’t know what they were doing. This is the context in which Parcells was brought in to coach the Giants. The Giants need a new George Young - an outsider who represents the future. Someone to come in and truly tear this thing down and rebuild it. Like I said, Judge is just another coach from the current regime of the past. He’s not in the same context as Parcells at all so I think it’s useless to compare records. It’s Apples and Oranges
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Post by IrishMike on Oct 30, 2021 19:53:51 GMT -5
I'd agree as long as they're showing signs of continued improvement.
The injuries to this team have not allowed us to effectively judge them so far. No pun intended. Yeah you have to go in the right direction of course. But that does not always show in the win/loss column. As you pointed out with the injuries this year.
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Post by IrishMike on Oct 30, 2021 19:56:43 GMT -5
.............which leads me back to my original point that continuity matters. Doc Brown's time machine may be helpful..For Giants fans living in the 21st century continuity matters if you enjoy watching losing football. That is the only continuity that will happen Well we had two coaches for two years each. Churning through coaches like girlfriends is not exactly producing winning football. Maybe we should try that continuity thing and actually give someone a chance. Just a thought.
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