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Post by giantlegacy on Nov 23, 2021 21:13:58 GMT -5
Even if QB we’re on the list… 1) they should fix the O-line first 2) this coming draft is not deep in QBs. I would seriously bring in a vet to complete with Jones. I mean really compete. Handing him the job next year at this point hoping he evolves is ridiculous. Simms had to fight off Brunner. Bring in Somebody like Tirod Taylor. There is clear franchise QB in this draft I'd fix the OL first before attempting to put a QB in the same situation as Jones. This team was so poorly put together on offense since Lobstah Boy took over I have a hard time believing any qb would have been much better. Don't make the same mistake for a possible next guy ...that's how you become a qb graveyard franchise
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Post by cruzsoldier on Nov 23, 2021 21:15:21 GMT -5
This is just another scape goat maneuver to appease the fans. Garrett was an issue yea but ,I blame that issue on an the HC's inability to intervene to fix the problems the offense was having . The same is true with the defense. The defense is a 5 yard play waiting to happen on every play used against them. Hell Judge is s career special teams guru. Our STs are mediocre at best If he lacks the ability to fix that. How can he repair the offence and defense? The problems on this team are far more reaching than the OC. This guy is midway through his second year as HC. The first quarter of his first game as HC and his 1st quarter last night were Indiscernible on both sides of the ball. Anyone who thinks this HC has not been the problem? Please explain If he is not why has nothing changed? He was Mara's "hand picked guy" nobody wanted the job and they tried to make it look like he was the guy all along. Mara forced a washed up ELI manning on Pat Schurmur even when he clearly was washed. No respectable GM(Dave Gettlemen is a toe the line guy )would take the Giants GM job with an owner telling him who to draft and what players to play.
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Post by FundamentallySoundJones on Nov 23, 2021 21:19:05 GMT -5
This is just another scape goat maneuver to appease the fans. Garrett was an issue yea but ,I blame that issue on an the HC's inability to intervene to fix the problems the offense was having . The same is true with the defense. The defense is a 5 yard play waiting to happen on every play used against them. Hell Judge is s career special teams guru. Our STs are mediocre at best If he lacks the ability to fix that. How can he repair the offence and defense? The problems on this team are far more reaching than the OC. This guy is midway through his second year as HC. The first quarter of his first game as HC and his 1st quarter last night were Indiscernible on both sides of the ball. Anyone who thinks this HC has not been the problem? Please explain If he is not why has nothing changed? He was Mara's "hand picked guy" nobody wanted the job and they tried to make it look like he was the guy all along. Mara forced a washed up ELI manning on Pat Schurmur even when he clearly was washed. No respectable GM(Dave Gettlemen is a toe the line guy )would take the Giants GM job with an owner telling him who to draft and what players to play.
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Post by jb456 on Nov 23, 2021 21:22:04 GMT -5
Garrett is the first one on the chopping block, but he won't be the last. But Garrett was sacrificed now to try and give some cover to Judge and Gettleman who need to follow him out the door too. Garrett was the worst offensive coordinator in the league. The other coaches aren't good but he had to go....
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Post by TEM on Nov 23, 2021 21:28:50 GMT -5
This is just another scape goat maneuver to appease the fans. Garrett was an issue yea but ,I blame that issue on an the HC's inability to intervene to fix the problems the offense was having . The same is true with the defense. The defense is a 5 yard play waiting to happen on every play used against them. Hell Judge is s career special teams guru. Our STs are mediocre at best If he lacks the ability to fix that. How can he repair the offence and defense? The problems on this team are far more reaching than the OC. This guy is midway through his second year as HC. The first quarter of his first game as HC and his 1st quarter last night were Indiscernible on both sides of the ball. Anyone who thinks this HC has not been the problem? Please explain If he is not why has nothing changed? He was Mara's "hand picked guy" nobody wanted the job and they tried to make it look like he was the guy all along. Mara forced a washed up ELI manning on Pat Schurmur even when he clearly was washed. No respectable GM(Dave Gettlemen is a toe the line guy )would take the Giants GM job with an owner telling him who to draft and what players to play. That explains Judge's inability to do his Job? He OKs the Game plan, sets the direction of the team. It is on him.
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Post by jb456 on Nov 23, 2021 21:32:00 GMT -5
Yay. Another scapegoat. Anyhow, it had to be done. Nowhere near enough though IMO. Scapegoat? Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha How the **** can Garrett be a Scapegoat when he is the ****ing offensive coordinator in the league?
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Post by cruzsoldier on Nov 23, 2021 21:38:11 GMT -5
He was Mara's "hand picked guy" nobody wanted the job and they tried to make it look like he was the guy all along. Mara forced a washed up ELI manning on Pat Schurmur even when he clearly was washed. No respectable GM(Dave Gettlemen is a toe the line guy )would take the Giants GM job with an owner telling him who to draft and what players to play. That explains Judge's inability to do his Job? He OKs the Game plan, sets the direction of the team. It is on him. Mara's inability to hire an outside voice and Gentlemen's inability to fix the OL is why we are here.
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Post by giantlegacy on Nov 23, 2021 21:49:37 GMT -5
That explains Judge's inability to do his Job? He OKs the Game plan, sets the direction of the team. It is on him. Mara's inability to hire an outside voice and Gentlemen's inability to fix the OL is why we are here. I would say B =A with this take
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Post by GameTime on Nov 23, 2021 22:05:38 GMT -5
he needed to go but Jones and the offense will still suck
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Post by jb456 on Nov 23, 2021 22:14:52 GMT -5
he needed to go but Jones and the offense will still suck Whoever takes over won't have any time to Insert an offense. They might be able to call a different game within the existing offense but that's about it. In short, you're right...
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Post by giantlegacy on Nov 23, 2021 22:25:50 GMT -5
he needed to go but Jones and the offense will still suck Whoever takes over won't have any time to Insert an offense. They might be able to call a different game within the existing offense but that's about it. In short, you're right... Kitchens and Calloway had hands in designing plays and concepts.. How much of it was used is debatable,what isn't is how different the first scripted plays looked from when the actual game plan took hold. We will find out if Kitchens/Calloway designed the scripted plays or not really fast,my hope is that is indeed the case ..
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Post by OrangeGiant on Nov 23, 2021 22:28:39 GMT -5
One of the biggest issues with Garrett was HOW he utilized the players on offense. Obviously the offensive scheme isn't going to change much, but that doesn't mean what calls are made in what situations with what personnel can't/won't change.
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Post by idkaname on Nov 23, 2021 22:46:43 GMT -5
One of the biggest issues with Garrett was HOW he utilized the players on offense. Obviously the offensive scheme isn't going to change much, but that doesn't mean what calls are made in what situations with what personnel can't/won't change. I’m just tired of looking like this after every playcall
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Post by Martin on Nov 23, 2021 23:17:51 GMT -5
One of the biggest issues with Garrett was HOW he utilized the players on offense. Obviously the offensive scheme isn't going to change much, but that doesn't mean what calls are made in what situations with what personnel can't/won't change. This is true. You rarely have a perfect scenario in the NFL when it comes to your squad. How you adjust to what you have and use it to your advantage is where the OC earns his money. Yet the big issue which so many on the board have discussed is the decision making of John Mara. He has become Jerry Jones light without the fanfare.
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Post by KingCap88 on Nov 24, 2021 2:25:56 GMT -5
Garrett is the first one on the chopping block, but he won't be the last. But Garrett was sacrificed now to try and give some cover to Judge and Gettleman who need to follow him out the door too. Garrett was the worst offensive coordinator in the league. The other coaches aren't good but he had to go.... I never wanted the Giants to hire Garrett to begin with so I'm glad he's gone. But Gettleman and Judge both need to be shown the door the day after the regular season ends. It's not like Garrett's bad playcalling has been a secret to anybody. But now that they've gotten rid of Garrett, Gettleman and Judge are going to find themselves on the hot seat going forward if there is no significant improvement because the focus is going to be on both of them now.
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Post by piddy283 on Nov 24, 2021 7:25:52 GMT -5
Hallelujah. Super Bowl bound.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2021 7:26:25 GMT -5
Should've been done during the bye week.. They can't even get this correct.. Coming off an upset win where the offense played good? How do you justify that? seriously... Very easily.. If you couldn't see just how bad they were playing then I don't know how to justify that..
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2021 7:29:20 GMT -5
Garrett is the first one on the chopping block, but he won't be the last. But Garrett was sacrificed now to try and give some cover to Judge and Gettleman who need to follow him out the door too. Garrett was the worst offensive coordinator in the league. The other coaches aren't good but he had to go.... I just don't understand how these fans couldn't see how bad Garrett is as the OC.. I mean do you want to use the scoring stat as a measuring point because those numbers are the worse in the league since he's been on this job!!
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Post by jb456 on Nov 24, 2021 8:10:38 GMT -5
Whoever takes over won't have any time to Insert an offense. They might be able to call a different game within the existing offense but that's about it. In short, you're right... Kitchens and Calloway had hands in designing plays and concepts.. How much of it was used is debatable,what isn't is how different the first scripted plays looked from when the actual game plan took hold. We will find out if Kitchens/Calloway designed the scripted plays or not really fast,my hope is that is indeed the case .. I believe that the Giants will score more points if Kitchens is less conservative. One of Daniel Jones best qualities is the long ball but Garrett rarely dialed it up. I understand that there are limitations with the Oline but they should have been trying to push the ball down the field more than they have been. Also, they had the worst red zone offense in the league so I really don't think it will be worse if another coach is calling the plays there.
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Post by jb456 on Nov 24, 2021 8:15:31 GMT -5
Garrett was the worst offensive coordinator in the league. The other coaches aren't good but he had to go.... I just don't understand how these fans couldn't see how bad Garrett is as the OC.. I mean do you want to use the scoring stat as a measuring point because those numbers are the worse in the league since he's been on this job!! 100% this. The Giants couldn't score in the red zone and he didn't utilize Jones's ability to throw the deep ball enough (one of his only few decent abilities). If the Offensive coordinator needs to draw up a trick play to score TD's, then there is a problem with the system. I'm not expecting a huge improvement from the Giants offense since they are still operating under the existing system but I do expect to see some small improvement (hopefully a little less conservative)...
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Post by TEM on Nov 24, 2021 8:18:16 GMT -5
That explains Judge's inability to do his Job? He OKs the Game plan, sets the direction of the team. It is on him. Mara's inability to hire an outside voice and Gentlemen's inability to fix the OL is why we are here. The first bullet in the HC's job description. Must be able to utilize the talent provided to him by the front office. We are way better than Washington on paper . The lost both of their pass rushers and their QB They can still play Football and we cannot. You can claim all you want about the owner and the GM. Neither are calling the shots in practice , making the Game plan , or making in game decisions. The Excuses from me are over . The HC is in over his head . Until he realizes he is and begins to look honestly at his own short comings in the position . He will remain this team's problem. When your DC comes out publicly and stats "Brady has seen it all. There is no look I can give him he cannot figure out", that is what Eli asked Graham on how to challenge Brady. And what Eli said during the broadcast. I knew at that point we were going to get our a##s handed to us. The Head Coach allowed Graham to continue implementing his Game plan and approved it??????? So the DC admitted he has no clue on how to stop Tampa's Offense.. He proved is was right. If you are the HC of a football team . How do you put your players in a can't win situation and do nothing to try to change it. This is just one instance of the HC's inability to intervene as he should have. Our HC is completely out of his league on what his abilities are on how to HC a football team. Thinking you know how to do something and doing it are not the same. You can blame the owner and GM all you want . There is zero excuse for what the DC said and what we saw on the field. The HC is a football theorist. Not a head coach. This isn't string theory where you can manipulate the equation with fake 4th,5th .....24th dimensions to make them work. This is reality . If the theory is flawed . The manipulation of the equation will not work. Manager style HC = Football theorist. That is the problem.
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Post by cdngfan on Nov 24, 2021 8:43:53 GMT -5
Garrett was the worst offensive coordinator in the league. The other coaches aren't good but he had to go.... I just don't understand how these fans couldn't see how bad Garrett is as the OC.. I mean do you want to use the scoring stat as a measuring point because those numbers are the worse in the league since he's been on this job!! The reason some of us aren’t as furious at Garrett is because we see him as a NASCAR driver racing in a Hyundai and we’re pissed at how slow he is. I’ve been a pretty big Jones supporter but I think his game plan has been covering for Jones more than I realized. There’s lots to criticize Garrett with, I see lots that makes no sense, but every decision on offence has a consequence. I think he was trying to maximize advantages and minimize consequences. Clearly he wasn’t successful. I want to see them push the ball down the field and use personnel MUCH better but I’m questioning Jones’ vision and ability to read a defence more than I was a couple weeks ago. Up until Monday his turnover issues have been mostly under control. Is that because of the game plan? We’ll find out. And you bring up a point (indirectly) that hasn’t been made. This offense was better under Shurmer than Judge/Garrett. So why was Shurmer fired? There’s no Garrett poster on my wall. But I don’t buy the “he’s an idiot” stuff people throw around (not implying that’s your point). The guy has spent his life in football and got an HC gig because he could run an offence well. I don’t think he forgot how to run an O or he’s been fooling people for years. So there’s more to this than Garrett’s incompetence I’d love to think Kitchens is going to be a huge upgrade. I think he will be against the Eagles. We’ll see if that’s sustained for the rest of the season.
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Post by te88 on Nov 24, 2021 8:53:04 GMT -5
I just don't understand how these fans couldn't see how bad Garrett is as the OC.. I mean do you want to use the scoring stat as a measuring point because those numbers are the worse in the league since he's been on this job!! The reason some of us aren’t as furious at Garrett is because we see him as a NASCAR driver racing in a Hyundai and we’re pissed at how slow he is. I’ve been a pretty big Jones supporter but I think his game plan has been covering for Jones more than I realized. There’s lots to criticize Garrett with, I see lots that makes no sense, but every decision on offence has a consequence. I think he was trying to maximize advantages and minimize consequences. Clearly he wasn’t successful. I want to see them push the ball down the field and use personnel MUCH better but I’m questioning Jones’ vision and ability to read a defence more than I was a couple weeks ago. Up until Monday his turnover issues have been mostly under control. Is that because of the game plan? We’ll find out. And you bring up a point (indirectly) that hasn’t been made. This offense was better under Shurmer than Judge/Garrett. So why was Shurmer fired? There’s no Garrett poster on my wall. But I don’t buy the “he’s an idiot” stuff people throw around (not implying that’s your point). The guy has spent his life in football and got an HC gig because he could run an offence well. I don’t think he forgot how to run an O or he’s been fooling people for years. So there’s more to this than Garrett’s incompetence I’d love to think Kitchens is going to be a huge upgrade. I think he will be against the Eagles. We’ll see if that’s sustained for the rest of the season. Garret lost playcalling duties and eventually his job in Dallas for similar issues with playcalling/his approach on O. He isn’t an idiot no, but as an OC the league has passed him by and it happened long before the Giants hired him. He should have been the QB coach or not hired in the first place.
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Post by cdngfan on Nov 24, 2021 8:59:23 GMT -5
The reason some of us aren’t as furious at Garrett is because we see him as a NASCAR driver racing in a Hyundai and we’re pissed at how slow he is. I’ve been a pretty big Jones supporter but I think his game plan has been covering for Jones more than I realized. There’s lots to criticize Garrett with, I see lots that makes no sense, but every decision on offence has a consequence. I think he was trying to maximize advantages and minimize consequences. Clearly he wasn’t successful. I want to see them push the ball down the field and use personnel MUCH better but I’m questioning Jones’ vision and ability to read a defence more than I was a couple weeks ago. Up until Monday his turnover issues have been mostly under control. Is that because of the game plan? We’ll find out. And you bring up a point (indirectly) that hasn’t been made. This offense was better under Shurmer than Judge/Garrett. So why was Shurmer fired? There’s no Garrett poster on my wall. But I don’t buy the “he’s an idiot” stuff people throw around (not implying that’s your point). The guy has spent his life in football and got an HC gig because he could run an offence well. I don’t think he forgot how to run an O or he’s been fooling people for years. So there’s more to this than Garrett’s incompetence I’d love to think Kitchens is going to be a huge upgrade. I think he will be against the Eagles. We’ll see if that’s sustained for the rest of the season. Garret lost playcalling duties and eventually his job in Dallas for similar issues with playcalling/his approach on O. He isn’t an idiot no, but as an OC the league has passed him by and it happened long before the Giants hired him. He should have been the QB coach or not hired in the first place. The narrative that he was Mara’s guy not Judge’s seems supportable. Judge is surrounded by people he’s been connected to, except Garrett. And the blow up with Garrett’s o line hire from the Cowboys supports that. The NFL passing Garrett by is the first point made on Garrett that doesn’t seem like vitriol from watching them lose. Good point.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2021 9:17:18 GMT -5
I just don't understand how these fans couldn't see how bad Garrett is as the OC.. I mean do you want to use the scoring stat as a measuring point because those numbers are the worse in the league since he's been on this job!! The reason some of us aren’t as furious at Garrett is because we see him as a NASCAR driver racing in a Hyundai and we’re pissed at how slow he is. I’ve been a pretty big Jones supporter but I think his game plan has been covering for Jones more than I realized. There’s lots to criticize Garrett with, I see lots that makes no sense, but every decision on offence has a consequence. I think he was trying to maximize advantages and minimize consequences. Clearly he wasn’t successful. I want to see them push the ball down the field and use personnel MUCH better but I’m questioning Jones’ vision and ability to read a defence more than I was a couple weeks ago. Up until Monday his turnover issues have been mostly under control. Is that because of the game plan? We’ll find out. And you bring up a point (indirectly) that hasn’t been made. This offense was better under Shurmer than Judge/Garrett. So why was Shurmer fired? There’s no Garrett poster on my wall. But I don’t buy the “he’s an idiot” stuff people throw around (not implying that’s your point). The guy has spent his life in football and got an HC gig because he could run an offence well. I don’t think he forgot how to run an O or he’s been fooling people for years. So there’s more to this than Garrett’s incompetence I’d love to think Kitchens is going to be a huge upgrade. I think he will be against the Eagles. We’ll see if that’s sustained for the rest of the season. Garrett has SUCKED as the OC for this team. There is no other way to see it and the numbers prove it. If you want to make excuses that's on you but come on they were worse than teams like the Jags, Dolphins and Jets who have been in rebuild mode without QBs these past two years..
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Post by jaymas on Nov 24, 2021 9:21:08 GMT -5
No offensive coordinator is going to survive being nearly dead last in every major statistical category that matters for an offense. Especially when it's persisted for 1.5 seasons. Whether or not this helps the rest of the season, is a learning experience for Judge, and is part of setting a new path forward that gets more out of our players long term, I have no idea.
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te88
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Post by te88 on Nov 24, 2021 9:31:41 GMT -5
Garret lost playcalling duties and eventually his job in Dallas for similar issues with playcalling/his approach on O. He isn’t an idiot no, but as an OC the league has passed him by and it happened long before the Giants hired him. He should have been the QB coach or not hired in the first place. The narrative that he was Mara’s guy not Judge’s seems supportable. Judge is surrounded by people he’s been connected to, except Garrett. And the blow up with Garrett’s o line hire from the Cowboys supports that. The NFL passing Garrett by is the first point made on Garrett that doesn’t seem like vitriol from watching them lose. Good point. Yeah it was a whole thing with the rise of Kellen Moore and Dallas was also where the whole “passing game coordinator” and “running game coordinator” (additional coaching positions) stuff started to get major attention. Many teams practice this structure now. When it was going on it appeared to be (and probably was) meddling by Jerry Jones to get Garrets mits off the offence while keeping him as a HC. Garrett is a good manager-style coach at this point rather than a “specialist” (although probably could be a good QB coach). Based on his past performance he would almost certainly be a better HC than Judge (pretty funny). You just can’t let him call plays.
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Post by cdngfan on Nov 24, 2021 9:32:00 GMT -5
The reason some of us aren’t as furious at Garrett is because we see him as a NASCAR driver racing in a Hyundai and we’re pissed at how slow he is. I’ve been a pretty big Jones supporter but I think his game plan has been covering for Jones more than I realized. There’s lots to criticize Garrett with, I see lots that makes no sense, but every decision on offence has a consequence. I think he was trying to maximize advantages and minimize consequences. Clearly he wasn’t successful. I want to see them push the ball down the field and use personnel MUCH better but I’m questioning Jones’ vision and ability to read a defence more than I was a couple weeks ago. Up until Monday his turnover issues have been mostly under control. Is that because of the game plan? We’ll find out. And you bring up a point (indirectly) that hasn’t been made. This offense was better under Shurmer than Judge/Garrett. So why was Shurmer fired? There’s no Garrett poster on my wall. But I don’t buy the “he’s an idiot” stuff people throw around (not implying that’s your point). The guy has spent his life in football and got an HC gig because he could run an offence well. I don’t think he forgot how to run an O or he’s been fooling people for years. So there’s more to this than Garrett’s incompetence I’d love to think Kitchens is going to be a huge upgrade. I think he will be against the Eagles. We’ll see if that’s sustained for the rest of the season. Garrett has SUCKED as the OC for this team. There is no other way to see it and the numbers prove it. If you want to make excuses that's on you but come on they were worse than teams like the Jags, Dolphins and Jets who have been in rebuild mode without QBs these past two years.. If you’re right then we solved our problem on Tuesday. I hope you are.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2021 9:46:28 GMT -5
Garrett has SUCKED as the OC for this team. There is no other way to see it and the numbers prove it. If you want to make excuses that's on you but come on they were worse than teams like the Jags, Dolphins and Jets who have been in rebuild mode without QBs these past two years.. If you’re right then we solved our problem on Tuesday. I hope you are. I'm correct that Garrett is a terrible OC. As for if Jones is a competent QB I feel still needs to be seen but so far the optic has also been bad the same with Barkley..
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Post by jaymas on Nov 24, 2021 9:54:13 GMT -5
If you’re right then we solved our problem on Tuesday. I hope you are. I'm correct that Garrett is a terrible OC. As for if Jones is a competent QB I feel still needs to be seen but so far the optic has also been bad the same with Barkley.. I think he could be, but I think the Judge/Garrett whatever they were trying to accomplish built off nothing that was great about Jones his rookie year. The fact that Pat Shurmur (who is having a time right now in Denver and has a lot of pressure on him to perform) good with QBs, but has proved to be an average offensive coordinator, had Jones looking like a very dynamic passer in 12 starts and our current coaching staff turned that into subtle mechanical changes that look worse, less agression, and a clear thinking over feeling situation (rather than those being in balance) is so disappointing to me as a fan. QB is a tough position, and the kid showed a lot two years ago. Wild to think it hasn't developed outside of a glimpse every now and then. Can't help but think a dozen or so offensive staffs around the league that have demonstrated success with QBs would have gotten a shit ton out of Jones. So the cynic in me thinks it's too late to salvage Jones. But then the optimist in me looks at other situations where guys can make jumps or bounnce back in the right environment. Right now, Carson Wentz is bouncing back in the right environment, just as a recent example. Ideal scenario is to see significant progress for this offense even if the season is lost because at least then, QB isn't a top priority.
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