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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 19:02:56 GMT -5
I haven't read the thread or know what led up to this but I do know that those are not facts, they are numbers.
Those who overlook context and nuance are simply seeking numbers which support whatever conclusion they are peddling.
It is a worn out technique which we see on TV every night.
Of course the world is built not just on data, but context and nuance. Eli could have the most passing yards in the league. That will not make him the best QB in the league.
If we have to explain that to some here............
It wouldn't?!?! Crap. It might not make him the best QB in the league, but it would certainly put him in the conversation. If he were leading the league in passing yards and I made the argument that he was a below-average quarterback, I'd look pretty silly. Especially, when I tried to explain away all his passing yards with excuses like "his offensive line is really good" or "his receivers always make spectacular catches". The numbers don't lie. They may not tell 100 percent of the story, but...they tell a pretty good portion of it. A guy who leads the other 31 NFL quarterbacks in passing is a pretty good QB. You would look like a petty individual with an agenda if you were to try to argue otherwise. That's my humble opinion, at least.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2018 19:09:10 GMT -5
Man. Thing that jumped out to me was Pugh, Richburg, Flowers, Schwartz, and a vet Beatty. Reese did everything he could over a 3 year period to fix the oline. This is critical for 2 reasons: #1 people who said he ignored it...well that's wrong. #2 It is unbelievable that basically none of those moves worked out for anything beyond the short term, with Flowers being a total bust. Exactly, I made that same point earlier. Say what you want about Reese, and he certainly made several poor picks, but he did try to address the offensive line. Unfortunately, he just didn't pick or sign the right guys. No, no, no...that's not the narrative here. Jerry Reese was an evil man who set out to single-handedly destroy the Giants organization. We are so lucky that our Lord and Savior Dave Gettleman resigned his position in Carolina to come here and help us forget the nightmare of two Super Bowls in five years.
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Post by Jomo on Oct 9, 2018 20:12:58 GMT -5
Man. Thing that jumped out to me was Pugh, Richburg, Flowers, Schwartz, and a vet Beatty. Reese did everything he could over a 3 year period to fix the oline. This is critical for 2 reasons: #1 people who said he ignored it...well that's wrong. #2 It is unbelievable that basically none of those moves worked out for anything beyond the short term, with Flowers being a total bust. He did things but he did a series of the wrong things on the OL. Some said he ignored it but what I heard in their words was that he was totally ineffective in identifying the guys who would ultimately replace Snee, McKenzie, Diehl, O'hara and Seubert. He didn't really replace a single one of them over a 7 year stretch. Now for the not doing anything part. In 2016, with an OL in the same shape it is today, he signed NO free agents, drafted NO offensive linemen, signed no UDFA offensive linemen. The only move he made was a pre-season signing of the injured William Beatty who played no more than a handful of downs. That is all history but the topper for me after that 2016 offseason performance was that he took us blind into training camp and proclaimed that "the talent is there on the OL, it is up to the coaches to bring it out." Even in 2017 having experienced the same wretched performance from the OL for yet another season, he didn't draft an OL until round 6. Adam Bisnowaty who has since been cut. That is one bad report card imo. That is where the "ignored" label comes from I believe. Head in the ground when things were not improving one bit.
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Post by jaxnygmen on Oct 9, 2018 20:13:46 GMT -5
Flowers feet moved faster to get out of the building then when he tried to block.
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Post by Sarcasman on Oct 10, 2018 0:04:26 GMT -5
I agree. He was a starter on a pro roster for years. Given the dearth of depth at OL league wide I'm sure he latches on somewhere. he was a bit of a scapegoat if you ask me. Even An allpro like Solder is being talked poorly about now. Probably more than a bit. It's tough when you underperform against first round expectations. He ain't first round talent so he's getting run out of town. I think he'll latch on somewhere unless the Giants put the stink on him*. *organizational stink. He took care of the other kind himself.
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Post by allnygin on Oct 10, 2018 2:33:12 GMT -5
I remember a mixture of shock/disappointment when they drafted him, and then as the offseason wore on I thought, well, he's young and looks the part maybe he can be the answer and the start of a nice rebuild on the o-line never worked out. Guy could never get it done here, wish him all the luck going forward though. I really do think Gettlmen can get it right.
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Post by lawrencetaylor56hof on Oct 10, 2018 6:19:22 GMT -5
Exactly, I made that same point earlier. Say what you want about Reese, and he certainly made several poor picks, but he did try to address the offensive line. Unfortunately, he just didn't pick or sign the right guys. You're correct on paper, but his picks were piss poor. Nearly every one of JR's OL picks were considered reaches at the time he picked them (Pugh, Flowers, and Richburg) Most were considered "finesse" OL, lacking strength to consistently take on bull rushes, and unimpressive in the running game (Beatty, Pugh, Richburg). While JR may have drafted OL, his picks were considered poor by most couch coaches and prognosticators alike. Looking back, he was pretty much an ego boost for all of us draft nerds, because we called him out so many times for poor picks at the time he made them, and we turned out to be right more often than not. Flowers was not considered even a slight reach. Most mocks had us taking him.
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Post by TCHOF on Oct 10, 2018 6:48:42 GMT -5
he was a bit of a scapegoat if you ask me. Even An allpro like Solder is being talked poorly about now. Yeah it seemed that way.Seems a more than a few people equate Flowers to Reese and some of his late years mistakes (and even moronicly equating Flowers to Reese's legacy). Not really fair IMO,though Flowers play on tbe field not matching his draft status did not help at all. Uh, how is it not fair to charge Reese with an epic miss on a #9 pick?
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Post by TCHOF on Oct 10, 2018 6:49:18 GMT -5
You're correct on paper, but his picks were piss poor. Nearly every one of JR's OL picks were considered reaches at the time he picked them (Pugh, Flowers, and Richburg) Most were considered "finesse" OL, lacking strength to consistently take on bull rushes, and unimpressive in the running game (Beatty, Pugh, Richburg). While JR may have drafted OL, his picks were considered poor by most couch coaches and prognosticators alike. Looking back, he was pretty much an ego boost for all of us draft nerds, because we called him out so many times for poor picks at the time he made them, and we turned out to be right more often than not. Flowers was not considered even a slight reach. Most mocks had us taking him. This is false
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Post by lawrencetaylor56hof on Oct 10, 2018 6:58:30 GMT -5
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Post by TCHOF on Oct 10, 2018 7:48:13 GMT -5
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Post by DandyDon on Oct 10, 2018 8:03:43 GMT -5
Especially a mock by Jordan Raanan...
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Post by TCHOF on Oct 10, 2018 8:24:02 GMT -5
Especially a mock by Jordan Raanan... Ha! Also, the fact that some may have predicted the Giants to take this worthless tub of goo, does not mean that he wasn’t a reach. No one had this guy ranked as a top 10 player.
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Post by DandyDon on Oct 10, 2018 8:41:21 GMT -5
Especially a mock by Jordan Raanan... Ha! Also, the fact that some may have predicted the Giants to take this worthless tub of goo, does not mean that he wasn’t a reach. No one had this guy ranked as a top 10 player. I dont follow college so I dont know whether guys are reaches or not. But I suspect there is a lot of reaching for OL, because for many you just cant tell if they will pan out in an NFL offense. But for flowers it seems they went with physical attributes and the hope they could train him up. Which is not what you want from a top 10 pick. I still think Flowers failed more because he's not bright and has a bad attitude. I could see him being moderately successful at some point in a more down-market team, maybe as an inside OL.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Oct 10, 2018 9:00:51 GMT -5
he was a bit of a scapegoat if you ask me. Even An allpro like Solder is being talked poorly about now. Probably more than a bit. It's tough when you underperform against first round expectations. He ain't first round talent so he's getting run out of town. I think he'll latch on somewhere unless the Giants put the stink on him*. *organizational stink. He took care of the other kind himself. He's gonna get a chance but he put the stink on himself with his tape, he is physically limited can't do some of things tackles have to be able to do.
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