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Post by DandyDon on Oct 13, 2019 20:24:11 GMT -5
The Pat's culture IS BB. He picks the players and every player knows it. If he wants you gone, you're gone.
Amazing how much more successful he is with that kind of control.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 13, 2019 21:31:09 GMT -5
The Pat's culture IS BB. He picks the players and every player knows it. If he wants you gone, you're gone. Amazing how much more successful he is with that kind of control. It's amazing how winning has a profound effect on a team's "culture".
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Oct 13, 2019 22:15:06 GMT -5
The Pat's culture IS BB. He picks the players and every player knows it. If he wants you gone, you're gone. Amazing how much more successful he is with that kind of control. It's amazing how winning has a profound effect on a team's "culture". when vets walk in the door they know if they give it everything they have and be team first and do their job they have an excellent chance to end the year with that elusive ring. That gives a team all the culture they need.
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Post by DandyDon on Oct 13, 2019 22:39:50 GMT -5
The Pat's culture IS BB. He picks the players and every player knows it. If he wants you gone, you're gone. Amazing how much more successful he is with that kind of control. It's amazing how winning has a profound effect on a team's "culture". I think it's more a chicken or the egg thing. But you have built an incredibly long thead about how we suck with no answers aside from "get better players.' Most GM's don't come from Montana.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 13, 2019 23:31:19 GMT -5
It's amazing how winning has a profound effect on a team's "culture". I think it's more a chicken or the egg thing. But you have built an incredibly long thead about how we suck with no answers aside from "get better players.' Most GM's don't come from Montana. The point made in the OP was that we have sunk ourselves with more than $40MM in dead cap space, which has strangulated our ability to fill out our roster with decent veteran depth.
I believe it was quite clear and well articulated but I'm happy to repeat it for you.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 14, 2019 8:34:49 GMT -5
The point made in the OP was that we have sunk ourselves with more than $40MM in dead cap space, which has strangulated our ability to fill out our roster with decent veteran depth.
I believe it was quite clear and well articulated but I'm happy to repeat it for you.
Okay , you say winning solve's everything. We weren't winning with those players , call it what ever you want culture ....attitude...whatever.Eli Apple quit during a game .Gettlemen did exactly what BB would have done . Sorry I have to disagree with you ,winning is a great cure for the fans but we never think about the rest of the business of football .Yeah DG created some dead cap space but we dump players they weren't playing well for us ,I disagree with your thought that we keep them here all the way through their contract. I have no idea what Dave had in his mind with any of these players. But I disagree with the position taken here that Dave "first needs to deal with the culture".
First Dave needs to deal with getting better players.
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Post by DandyDon on Oct 14, 2019 9:19:55 GMT -5
I think it's more a chicken or the egg thing. But you have built an incredibly long thead about how we suck with no answers aside from "get better players.' Most GM's don't come from Montana. The point made in the OP was that we have sunk ourselves with more than $40MM in dead cap space, which has strangulated our ability to fill out our roster with decent veteran depth.
I believe it was quite clear and well articulated but I'm happy to repeat it for you.
I dont disagree with most of what you said in the OP. But right in the middle of it you state: "Now Dave gets a pass if we improve dramatically next season. All this dead cap money is off the books in 2020. "Read more: thegiantsboard.proboards.com/thread/4748/why-suck?page=1#ixzz62L058cpVSo yes, there is a lot of dead money this year and yes, we will be in an incredibly better cap position next year, which should lead to a much improved team. Seems pretty obvious to me. It also is obvious to me that 2019 would be a transition year, with a new rookie QB and a very young defense. So if next year is great are you going to come back and bump this complaint thread and say "nevermind?"
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Post by jmike on Oct 14, 2019 9:34:36 GMT -5
I will never understand why anybody cares how good or not good a coach or GM is with the media. This should probably be the least important thing to fans rooting for a team. A coach and a GM is the face of a franchise. If he sounds like a buffoon your team comes off as one. Gettleman likes his cliches, and Shurmur sounds like he’s reading directions on how to build a desk for your home. So? Why should I care what somebody else's perception of my team is bad? Makes them sound like buffoons for using such a subjective emotion to reach a opinion.
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southerner
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Post by southerner on Oct 14, 2019 9:41:56 GMT -5
I think it's more a chicken or the egg thing. But you have built an incredibly long thead about how we suck with no answers aside from "get better players.' Most GM's don't come from Montana. The point made in the OP was that we have sunk ourselves with more than $40MM in dead cap space, which has strangulated our ability to fill out our roster with decent veteran depth.
I believe it was quite clear and well articulated but I'm happy to repeat it for you.
It is clear from your posts that you either don’t understand or don’t accept the concept of a total rebuild, which requires the dumping of high priced players and a large single year cap hit to get the team in a very advantageous cap situation, coupled with excellent draft choices. Gettleman has and is accomplishing these perfectly, so far. To complain about his concept of team chemistry and makeup is nonsensical. No team wants headcases and me-first players, and that is true for all levels of football from Pop Warner to the NFL.
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Post by GameTime on Oct 14, 2019 9:42:22 GMT -5
For all of you who say that 2019 was always going to suck...then why keep Eli? A $17MM mentor? Really? Dave thought 2018 was going to be much better. Then Dave thought 2019 was going to be much better. He was wrong both times. It's clear to me that he "hoped" Eli could function with a better O line and that IF everyone stayed healthy...we could have a decent year. Wrong again. It seems to me one of the biggest problems with our team the last two seasons is that Dave mis-judged them. We have a GM who has shown poor judgement regarding our team over the last two years. We hired him FOR his judgement......Right? First an foremost DG was hired to usher Eli out and to find the next franchise QB. His plan was to do that while staying competitive. The competitive part hasn't worked out and it was only a gravy if it did. Ok....so he was wrong. Big deal.....all GMs mess up. If Jones turns out to be "THE GUY" then DG has done his job....that the bottom line. Eli being on the team in 2019 wont matter and neither will his cap hit.
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southerner
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Post by southerner on Oct 14, 2019 9:58:06 GMT -5
For all of you who say that 2019 was always going to suck...then why keep Eli? A $17MM mentor? Really? Dave thought 2018 was going to be much better. Then Dave thought 2019 was going to be much better. He was wrong both times. It's clear to me that he "hoped" Eli could function with a better O line and that IF everyone stayed healthy...we could have a decent year. Wrong again. It seems to me one of the biggest problems with our team the last two seasons is that Dave mis-judged them. We have a GM who has shown poor judgement regarding our team over the last two years. We hired him FOR his judgement......Right? First an foremost DG was hired to usher Eli out and to find the next franchise QB. His plan was to do that while staying competitive. The competitive part hasn't worked out and it was only a gravy if it did. Ok....so he was wrong. Big deal.....all GMs mess up. If Jones turns out to be "THE GUY" then DG has done his job....that the bottom line. Eli being on the team in 2019 wont matter and neither will his cap hit. Actually, the reason Gettleman kept Eli is because he thought it would take which ever QB they chose a full season to learn and get prepared to take over. Jones just blew away all their concerns much quicker than they could have expected or anticipated. Keeping Eli after Jones took over is a no-brainer to help Jones as he takes over. There is no question the Giants offered Eli any out he may have wanted after being told Jones was taking over, but he chose to stay through this season and the last year of his contract. The Giants owe Eli that as a minimum, and to suggest they should have dumped Eli before the season began is asinine and naive.
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Post by jmike on Oct 14, 2019 10:09:32 GMT -5
I will never understand why anybody cares how good or not good a coach or GM is with the media. This should probably be the least important thing to fans rooting for a team. It's very important, especially if they are calling out players on the team. Let me know when Belichick does that. Yes, to fragile egos, I'm sure it is. Fragile egos have little place in professional sports.
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Post by jmike on Oct 14, 2019 10:12:49 GMT -5
I don't have to write anything in this thread, this is post is identical to how i'm thinking. That team Gettleman inherited was a hot mess culturally, with more cap space taken than corresponding talent received. The team i'm watching now has an actual future. Compared to pre Gettleman/Shurmur, most positions are getting better, the playcalling is better, the cap situation is better, the draft has been better. Literally everything is better. Except the one thing that gets under everyone's skin, our record. Which sucks. But i'm excited as a Giants fan for the first time in what feels like a decade. There's going to be something to really get excited about starting next year. I don't for a second buy into this "change the culture" nonsense.
You know what changes the culture?....Winning. There was nothing wrong with our culture in 2016 when we went 11-5. Then the next year with the same players we started losing and guess what?...."Bad culture". It's a lot of crap to me.
What Dave needs to change is the quality of football players. He's spending a huge amount of money and cap space on a better culture and forgetting that we have to play better football.
Winning makes for a better culture. Losing will ALWAYS bring resentment and finger pointing.
You want a better culture?....Win more friggin football games.
Yup, you are right. We need a coach and GM that want to win games. There is no way that this is what Shurmer and Gettleman want. They should do what the Browns did and sign a bunch of big ego high priced players and lose games that way instead.
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Post by jmike on Oct 14, 2019 10:16:29 GMT -5
If culture isn’t important than how do you explain two decades of domination from the patriots? It starts with culture. The Patriots always have the best culture in ALL of sports. They created a winning culture where every player that comes to the Patriots believes in. The ‘96-2000 Yankees, Amazing culture, a winning culture. look at the Brows. Their culture is a losing one, where the players are a bunch of babies. All they do is lose...for decades! Their culture is still the same even though they have great players all over the field. SUSTAINABLE winning starts with building culture, 100%!. The 2016 season was a mirage...we have been a negative losing culture for years. Give it time. They win because they have Tom Brady and Bill Belichick. The culture is easy when you win. Yea, stupid Giants. Why didn't they go to the football store and pick up the best QB of all time and the best head coach of all time. I mean they are just sitting on their couch out there right now, aren't they?
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Post by Roswell on Oct 14, 2019 10:19:04 GMT -5
It’s just Year 2 in the rebuild and the Giants seemingly have their QB in place.
Things are looking up, not down.
Patience will serve them and their fan base well.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2019 10:21:55 GMT -5
First an foremost DG was hired to usher Eli out and to find the next franchise QB. His plan was to do that while staying competitive. The competitive part hasn't worked out and it was only a gravy if it did. Ok....so he was wrong. Big deal.....all GMs mess up. If Jones turns out to be "THE GUY" then DG has done his job....that the bottom line. Eli being on the team in 2019 wont matter and neither will his cap hit. Actually, the reason Gettleman kept Eli is because he thought it would take which ever QB they chose a full season to learn and get prepared to take over. Jones just blew away all their concerns much quicker than they could have expected or anticipated. Keeping Eli after Jones took over is a no-brainer to help Jones as he takes over. There is no question the Giants offered Eli any out he may have wanted after being told Jones was taking over, but he chose to stay through this season and the last year of his contract. The Giants owe Eli that as a minimum, and to suggest they should have dumped Eli before the season began is asinine and naive.The Giants don't owe Eli anything and to suggest otherwise is "asinine and naive".. They should've cut him after they drafted Jones but here they are with him riding the bench and another 40 million playing for other teams.. The comical thing is that people have now changed to thinking they can win the division after the Eagles and Cowboys lose a game.. Friday morning to Monday morning has some fans flip flopping as good as a politician..
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Post by DandyDon on Oct 14, 2019 10:22:26 GMT -5
First an foremost DG was hired to usher Eli out and to find the next franchise QB. His plan was to do that while staying competitive. The competitive part hasn't worked out and it was only a gravy if it did. Ok....so he was wrong. Big deal.....all GMs mess up. If Jones turns out to be "THE GUY" then DG has done his job....that the bottom line. Eli being on the team in 2019 wont matter and neither will his cap hit. Actually, the reason Gettleman kept Eli is because he thought it would take which ever QB they chose a full season to learn and get prepared to take over. Jones just blew away all their concerns much quicker than they could have expected or anticipated. Keeping Eli after Jones took over is a no-brainer to help Jones as he takes over. There is no question the Giants offered Eli any out he may have wanted after being told Jones was taking over, but he chose to stay through this season and the last year of his contract. The Giants owe Eli that as a minimum, and to suggest they should have dumped Eli before the season began is asinine and naive. Plus the fact that they basically had to commit to Eli BEFORE they knew that they would get their QB in the draft. Sure, technically they could have cut him right after the draft, but I'm not sure what they would have achieved with the extra cap at that point.
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Post by jmike on Oct 14, 2019 10:23:12 GMT -5
I get what you are saying...but what players would you say Dave got rid of because they were issues to the culture he wanted to establish?What players did you object to being brought in, assuming it was for culture reasons?OBJ was certainly not traded because he wasn't performing Stewart was signed for culture reasons What else are we looking at? Wait......Posters here are claiming that "first we need to fix the culture". This is a philosophical question.
So ask them. Ask them who we are bringing in to clean up the culture as they claim we have.
Off the top of my head I would say that dumping Apple was not a football decision. He's now a starting CB on a winning team with an outstanding defense. I would say that bringing in an overpriced Ogeltree was a "culture" decision. I would guess dumping Vernon was as well.
And who knows what the personal traits are of all the possible draftees we considered. I'm taking these poster's word for it that we are "fixing the culture".
My point is the culture gets fixed by winning football games. It's a chicken or the egg proposition. The Pats started winning the day Tom Brady became their QB. Did the culture magically improve because all the players decided to be good guys? No. They won because a better player was at the helm....and they started to win.
So let's do that first. Let's get better players and I'm guessing our culture will be just fine. Winning has a mystical effect on the attitudes of the players.
So, if there is an existing culture that is not conducive to winning exists, are you saying change nothing, just start winning? Yup, that makes sense.
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Post by jmike on Oct 14, 2019 10:30:17 GMT -5
I think it's more a chicken or the egg thing. But you have built an incredibly long thead about how we suck with no answers aside from "get better players.' Most GM's don't come from Montana. The point made in the OP was that we have sunk ourselves with more than $40MM in dead cap space, which has strangulated our ability to fill out our roster with decent veteran depth.
I believe it was quite clear and well articulated but I'm happy to repeat it for you.
Yup, because that is what will turn this stuff around, more bargain basement vets....stupid Gettleman. Why would he want to clear all the bad contracts off in one year when he could spread it out over 5 and hurt us every season for half a decade instead of just one? This GM must be out of his mind.
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Post by jmike on Oct 14, 2019 10:36:35 GMT -5
Actually, the reason Gettleman kept Eli is because he thought it would take which ever QB they chose a full season to learn and get prepared to take over. Jones just blew away all their concerns much quicker than they could have expected or anticipated. Keeping Eli after Jones took over is a no-brainer to help Jones as he takes over. There is no question the Giants offered Eli any out he may have wanted after being told Jones was taking over, but he chose to stay through this season and the last year of his contract. The Giants owe Eli that as a minimum, and to suggest they should have dumped Eli before the season began is asinine and naive. Plus the fact that they basically had to commit to Eli BEFORE they knew that they would get their QB in the draft. Sure, technically they could have cut him right after the draft, but I'm not sure what they would have achieved with the extra cap at that point. They would have spent what savings they got from cutting Eli on a vet stop gap QB until their rookie QB was ready. Since they already had that vet stop gap on the team in Eli Manning, didn't seem to make much sense to dump him. If they were going to do that it would have needed to be before his roster bonus. Which they could have done, but then they likely would have needed to trade up to ensure drafting the QB they wanted. Since everyone and all their deceased relatives would know the Giants are going QB #1. Which was in doubt right up to the point when everyone had kittens about the Jones pick.
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Post by DandyDon on Oct 14, 2019 10:44:11 GMT -5
Plus the fact that they basically had to commit to Eli BEFORE they knew that they would get their QB in the draft. Sure, technically they could have cut him right after the draft, but I'm not sure what they would have achieved with the extra cap at that point. They would have spent what savings they got from cutting Eli on a vet stop gap QB until their rookie QB was ready. Since they already had that vet stop gap on the team in Eli Manning, didn't seem to make much sense to dump him. If they were going to do that it would have needed to be before his roster bonus. Which they could have done, but then they likely would have needed to trade up to ensure drafting the QB they wanted. Since everyone and all their deceased relatives would know the Giants are going QB #1. Which was in doubt right up to the point when everyone had kittens about the Jones pick. Yup.
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Post by Roswell on Oct 14, 2019 10:45:37 GMT -5
Actually, the reason Gettleman kept Eli is because he thought it would take which ever QB they chose a full season to learn and get prepared to take over. Jones just blew away all their concerns much quicker than they could have expected or anticipated. Keeping Eli after Jones took over is a no-brainer to help Jones as he takes over. There is no question the Giants offered Eli any out he may have wanted after being told Jones was taking over, but he chose to stay through this season and the last year of his contract. The Giants owe Eli that as a minimum, and to suggest they should have dumped Eli before the season began is asinine and naive.The Giants don't owe Eli anything and to suggest otherwise is "asinine and naive".. They should've cut him after they drafted Jones but here they are with him riding the bench and another 40 million playing for other teams.. The comical thing is that people have now changed to thinking they can win the division after the Eagles and Cowboys lose a game.. Friday morning to Monday morning has some fans flip flopping as good as a politician.. I can’t speak for everyone about winning the NFCE division title but when you see Dallas lose three in a row and the Eagles flounder as well, what it means to me is if the Giants can get to 500 then at least they will play meaningful games into November and even December. That’s good enough for me year 2 into a complete overhaul.
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Post by jmike on Oct 14, 2019 10:48:17 GMT -5
They would have spent what savings they got from cutting Eli on a vet stop gap QB until their rookie QB was ready. Since they already had that vet stop gap on the team in Eli Manning, didn't seem to make much sense to dump him. If they were going to do that it would have needed to be before his roster bonus. Which they could have done, but then they likely would have needed to trade up to ensure drafting the QB they wanted. Since everyone and all their deceased relatives would know the Giants are going QB #1. Which was in doubt right up to the point when everyone had kittens about the Jones pick. Yup. I find that rational observation is a lost art.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2019 10:49:09 GMT -5
The Giants don't owe Eli anything and to suggest otherwise is "asinine and naive".. They should've cut him after they drafted Jones but here they are with him riding the bench and another 40 million playing for other teams.. The comical thing is that people have now changed to thinking they can win the division after the Eagles and Cowboys lose a game.. Friday morning to Monday morning has some fans flip flopping as good as a politician.. I can’t speak for everyone about winning the NFCE division title but when you see Dallas lose three in a row and the Eagles flounder as well, what it means to me is if the Giants can get to 500 then at least they will play meaningful games into November and even December. That’s good enough for me year 2 into a complete overhaul. But they haven't got to .500 so there is that.. Why everyone seems to think they are an automatic to win against the Cards and Lions is a mystery..
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Post by jmike on Oct 14, 2019 10:56:17 GMT -5
I can’t speak for everyone about winning the NFCE division title but when you see Dallas lose three in a row and the Eagles flounder as well, what it means to me is if the Giants can get to 500 then at least they will play meaningful games into November and even December. That’s good enough for me year 2 into a complete overhaul. But they haven't got to .500 so there is that.. Why everyone seems to think they are an automatic to win against the Cards and Lions is a mystery.. Why anyone thinks any game is a foregone conclusion is a mystery to me. I'm an optimist when it comes to the Giants, so going into nearly every game I think they can win. I don't recall ever going into a game knowing that they will win though.
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Post by OrangeGiant on Oct 14, 2019 11:03:29 GMT -5
This team was losing 3 years ago, losing last season and losing this season. You want to know what the difference is? 2 seasons ago you had players quit on the field, complain to the media, complain in social media, throw teammates and coaches under the bus...in short there was a culture of players who when things got bad they pointed fingers or quit. Front runners who couldn't handle adversity.
You know what was different last season and this season? All that shit stopped. Those players were removed. You ever been in a locker room with players who always complained, and held pity parties? It's poison, a cancer. It spreads...
I get it, winning makes for a better attitude, locker room and culture. Well this team is getting better, the talent is getting better. I truly believe that it is headed in the right direction. Players are playing hard, they are fighting in every game.
Give me a team of guys like Eli, he is model of what you want in a player with regards to attitude. You can be talented and still be that kind of guy. Most of the truly great players are. Give me leaders, not followers. Those are the guys that will instill the right attitude inside a locker room, and they won't tolerate bullshit.
That is what the right culture means.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 14, 2019 11:08:13 GMT -5
The point made in the OP was that we have sunk ourselves with more than $40MM in dead cap space, which has strangulated our ability to fill out our roster with decent veteran depth.
I believe it was quite clear and well articulated but I'm happy to repeat it for you.
I dont disagree with most of what you said in the OP. But right in the middle of it you state: "Now Dave gets a pass if we improve dramatically next season. All this dead cap money is off the books in 2020. "Read more: thegiantsboard.proboards.com/thread/4748/why-suck?page=1#ixzz62L058cpVSo yes, there is a lot of dead money this year and yes, we will be in an incredibly better cap position next year, which should lead to a much improved team. Seems pretty obvious to me. It also is obvious to me that 2019 would be a transition year, with a new rookie QB and a very young defense. So if next year is great are you going to come back and bump this complaint thread and say "nevermind?" Seems pretty clear. Why do you insist I keep repeating my views?
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 14, 2019 11:10:47 GMT -5
Wait......Posters here are claiming that "first we need to fix the culture". This is a philosophical question.
So ask them. Ask them who we are bringing in to clean up the culture as they claim we have.
Off the top of my head I would say that dumping Apple was not a football decision. He's now a starting CB on a winning team with an outstanding defense. I would say that bringing in an overpriced Ogeltree was a "culture" decision. I would guess dumping Vernon was as well.
And who knows what the personal traits are of all the possible draftees we considered. I'm taking these poster's word for it that we are "fixing the culture".
My point is the culture gets fixed by winning football games. It's a chicken or the egg proposition. The Pats started winning the day Tom Brady became their QB. Did the culture magically improve because all the players decided to be good guys? No. They won because a better player was at the helm....and they started to win.
So let's do that first. Let's get better players and I'm guessing our culture will be just fine. Winning has a mystical effect on the attitudes of the players.
So, if there is an existing culture that is not conducive to winning exists, are you saying change nothing, just start winning? Yup, that makes sense. The best culture of winning is one with good football players.....not just a bunch of nice guys and a nice guy HC.
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Post by jmike on Oct 14, 2019 11:12:51 GMT -5
So, if there is an existing culture that is not conducive to winning exists, are you saying change nothing, just start winning? Yup, that makes sense. The best culture of winning is one with good football players.....not just a bunch of nice guys and a nice guy HC. Yea, so change nothing, just start winning. That often is the best way to change what is going on, just keep doing what has been failing for a few years, it is bound to work this time....right?
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Post by DandyDon on Oct 14, 2019 11:20:51 GMT -5
I dont disagree with most of what you said in the OP. But right in the middle of it you state: "Now Dave gets a pass if we improve dramatically next season. All this dead cap money is off the books in 2020. "Read more: thegiantsboard.proboards.com/thread/4748/why-suck?page=1#ixzz62L058cpVSo yes, there is a lot of dead money this year and yes, we will be in an incredibly better cap position next year, which should lead to a much improved team. Seems pretty obvious to me. It also is obvious to me that 2019 would be a transition year, with a new rookie QB and a very young defense. So if next year is great are you going to come back and bump this complaint thread and say "nevermind?" Seems pretty clear. Why do you insist I keep repeating my views? Never mind. Carry on.
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