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Post by JoeBigBlue on Oct 14, 2019 11:25:44 GMT -5
So, if there is an existing culture that is not conducive to winning exists, are you saying change nothing, just start winning? Yup, that makes sense. The best culture of winning is one with good football players.....not just a bunch of nice guys and a nice guy HC. 2017 1 Evan Engram 23 TE 2017 2 Dalvin Tomlinson 55 DT 2017 3 Davis Webb 87 QB 2017 4 Wayne Gallman 140 RB 2017 5 Avery Moss 167 DE 2017 6 Adam Bisnowaty 200 T 2016 1 Eli Apple 10 CB 2016 2 Sterling Shepard 40 WR 2016 3 Darian Thompson 71 S 2016 5 Paul Perkins 149 RB 2016 6 Jerell Adams 184 TE 2015 1 Ereck Flowers 9 T 2015 2 Landon Collins 33 S 2015 3 Owamagbe Odighizuwa 74 DE 2015 5 Mykkele Thompson 144 S 2015 6 Geremy Davis 186 WR 2015 7 Bobby Hart 226 G 2014 1 Odell Beckham 12 WR 2014 2 Weston Richburg 43 OL 2014 3 Jay Bromley 74 DT 2014 4 Andre Williams 113 RB 2014 5 Nat Berhe 152 DB 2018 2014 5 Devon Kennard 174 DE 2014 6 Bennett Jackson 187 DB 2013 1 Justin Pugh 19 T 2013 2 Johnathan Hankins 49 DT 2013 3 Damontre Moore 81 DE 2018 2013 4 Ryan Nassib 110 QB 2013 5 Cooper Taylor 152 DB 2013 7 Eric Herman 225 OL 2013 7 Michael Cox 253 RB 2012 2 Rueben Randle 63 WR 2012 3 Jayron Hosley 94 DB 2012 4 Adrien Robinson 127 TE 2012 4 Brandon Mosley 131 T 2012 6 Matt McCants 201 T 2012 7 Markus Kuhn
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Post by Roswell on Oct 14, 2019 11:28:16 GMT -5
I can’t speak for everyone about winning the NFCE division title but when you see Dallas lose three in a row and the Eagles flounder as well, what it means to me is if the Giants can get to 500 then at least they will play meaningful games into November and even December. That’s good enough for me year 2 into a complete overhaul. But they haven't got to .500 so there is that.. Why everyone seems to think they are an automatic to win against the Cards and Lions is a mystery.. You’re right. There isn’t a game on their schedule that the Giants aren’t capable of losing but compared to last year they are one game out of first so that makes the next couple of games meaningful. Compare that to the last 2 years where they were eliminated by mid October. Fools gold? Maybe. But to me it shows improvement and while every game on a 5-11 teams schedule is hard, arguably the Giants have played 2 of their 3 hardest games already @dallas and @ne. Bottom line is they seem set at QB and are playing meaningful games.
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Post by jmike on Oct 14, 2019 12:18:24 GMT -5
The best culture of winning is one with good football players.....not just a bunch of nice guys and a nice guy HC. 2017 1 Evan Engram 23 TE - Overly criticized player. I think he is a good piece to this offense going forward. 2017 2 Dalvin Tomlinson 55 DT - Solid DT. Not a key piece going forward, but not a player who is hurting this team. 2017 3 Davis Webb 87 QB - Worth the risk of the pick, unsurprising that it didn't work out. 2017 4 Wayne Gallman 140 RB - Good back-up 2017 5 Avery Moss 167 DE - 5th round pass rusher that didn't work out. Nothing this late is a bad pick. But you hope to land a good pick this late once in a while 2017 6 Adam Bisnowaty 200 T - See Moss 2016 1 Eli Apple 10 CB - Really talented player. I liked him a lot among the CBs in the draft. Knew nothing about his head, which seems to be the problem. The Giants were also equally ill-equipped to help overcome that and take advantage of the talent. I feel this pick's lack of success was as much on the coaching staff as it was on the scouting staff. 2016 2 Sterling Shepard 40 WR - Good player. About what you hope to get in a 2nd round WR. 2016 3 Darian Thompson 71 S - For a scouting staff that often rated physical ability over play on the field, this was a surprising pick. Seems he just wasn't athletic enough. 2016 5 Paul Perkins 149 RB - Solid pick, that I think would have been better with a better OL. Would have been a nice piece to still have when SB and WG went down. 2016 6 Jerell Adams 184 TE - See Moss 2015 1 Ereck Flowers 9 T - Need pick all the way. Clear he was talented but had a long way to go. Didn't take to coaching here, either his issue or the staffs, doesn't matter. Could have been good if he worked at it. 2015 2 Landon Collins 33 S - Very good player, but limited. Would be nice to still have but not at the contract number he commanded. Surprised he doesn't love DG for letting him hit FA without a tag or anything. 2015 3 Owamagbe Odighizuwa 74 DE - Seemed like a steal at the time as injury concerns caused him to drop. Injuries stayed but good play didn't. Would like to get at least a role player in the 3rd. Wasn't even that. 2015 5 Mykkele Thompson 144 S - See Moss, but talk about an out of nowhere pick. Even Mykkele was surprised anyone drafted him. 2015 6 Geremy Davis 186 WR - See Moss 2015 7 Bobby Hart 226 G - 7th round OL still in the league? Pretty decent pick, but not someone you want to have to be forced to play at all. 2014 1 Odell Beckham 12 WR - Great player, great pick. His failings here were on everyone. Odel, the front office mis-handling him, the coaches unable to reign him in and keep him focused. Really a shame, but he had to go, as much for his own career as for the Giants to move forward. 2014 2 Weston Richburg 43 OL - Looked really good early on, just never seemed to improve. I thought that was on coaching, but he doesn't seem to be improving elsewhere either. Probably just a decent but limited player. 2014 3 Jay Bromley 74 DT - Player I liked as a 7th round flyer....3rd round was surprising. Not really even a role player. 2014 4 Andre Williams 113 RB - Bruising complementary back type, just wasn't skilled enough in vision or movement for the NFL. Pro scouts should have known this as many amateur scouts felt this way despite his gaudy college numbers. 2014 5 Nat Berhe 152 DB 2018 - See Moss...I thought Berhe would be a great ST player. 2014 5 Devon Kennard 174 DE - Shame to see him go when you finally found a good player late. But constant injuries got in his way here and I understand why they didn't want to spend money on a player who is unavailable so often. 2014 6 Bennett Jackson 187 DB - See Moss 2013 1 Justin Pugh 19 T - Solid player, would want more out of a first round OL. Injuries made him too pricey to keep. 2013 2 Johnathan Hankins 49 DT - Another good player. Got tired of them finding good DTs only to let them walk and have to keep replacing the same position over and over. 2013 3 Damontre Moore 81 DE 2018 - Gaudy pass rush numbers in college, but was more scheme driven. Much like Williams above, pro scouts should have known this. Again, not even a role player. Surprised he has bounced around the league for so long. Just wasn't good and had some locker room issues as well. 2013 4 Ryan Nassib 110 QB - Much like Webb, always worth taking a chance on a mid-late round QB. The reward is well worth the risk. Couple of seasons as cheap primary back-up to a player who always plays made this a really good pick. 2013 5 Cooper Taylor 152 DB - See Moss 2013 7 Eric Herman 225 OL - See Moss 2013 7 Michael Cox 253 RB - See Moss 2012 2 Rueben Randle 63 WR - Overly criticized player IMO. Though still not a good player. You aren't getting killed with this guy as your thrid, but you would hope to do better real soon. If he was a late rounder it would be a great pick. 2012 3 Jayron Hosley 94 DB - Not even a role player. 2012 4 Adrien Robinson 127 TE - LOL....god...JPP of TEs. Once again, even if he could have been a decent special teams player it would have been a decent pick. 2012 4 Brandon Mosley 131 T - Looked like a good player gotten late. No idea what his issues were getting on the field, but just wasn't good enough. Hoping for at least a back-up here. 2012 6 Matt McCants 201 T - Turned into a good T in the NFL with a bunch of starts. So good pick, bad roster decision I guess. 2012 7 Markus Kuhn - See Moss Not too many issues with the individual picks, but a lot of the same mistakes year after year. Not surprising that picks after the 2nd round don't become much in the way of NFL players. That is normal. But you would think you could hit on a few more 3-7 round picks than they did.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 14, 2019 13:38:02 GMT -5
The best culture of winning is one with good football players.....not just a bunch of nice guys and a nice guy HC. Yea, so change nothing, just start winning. That often is the best way to change what is going on, just keep doing what has been failing for a few years, it is bound to work this time....right? No. Start making decisions about the potential play on the field and don't worry about the culture. Culture will take care of itself when you win. Focusing on culture can cause bad football decisions.
Again....It's really surprising to me that otherwise intelligent people need me to repeat myself several times before they grasp this simple point.
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Post by jmike on Oct 14, 2019 14:28:01 GMT -5
Yea, so change nothing, just start winning. That often is the best way to change what is going on, just keep doing what has been failing for a few years, it is bound to work this time....right? No. Start making decisions about the potential play on the field and don't worry about the culture. Culture will take care of itself when you win. Focusing on culture can cause bad football decisions.
Again....It's really surprising to me that otherwise intelligent people need me to repeat myself several times before they grasp this simple point.
Because you are completely missing the point. If there are veteran players, particularly good, well liked and respected veteran players, who's attitude is not conducive to helping the team turn things around; that player needs to go regardless of how good he happens to be. Maybe he complains a lot. Maybe he is lazy. Maybe he puts himself ahead of the team. Maybe he creates a lot of distractions with off field behavior. Maybe he is insubordinate. Lots of things that might hold a team back from improving when things are not going well. A winning program can handle these things without it hamstringing them. But a losing program cannot if they want to be a winning program. They need to start winning first before they can take on players like that, because they will never turn it around while they remain on the team. Call it what you will, some call it "culture". Does it make it harder to win when you have to make decisions based more on attitude than talent? Of course it does. Though if you don't, you have made a hard situation impossible. For me, I'd rather take my chances on hard over impossible. The key is to bring talented players in with the right attitude. Something the team is doing well with in the draft and not so great in FA. But that isn't surprising as rarely do really good players with really good attitudes become available in FA or via trade. You usually get one or the other.
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Post by Sarcasman on Oct 14, 2019 15:54:45 GMT -5
2017 1 Evan Engram 23 TE - Overly criticized player. I think he is a good piece to this offense going forward. 2017 2 Dalvin Tomlinson 55 DT - Solid DT. Not a key piece going forward, but not a player who is hurting this team. 2017 3 Davis Webb 87 QB - Worth the risk of the pick, unsurprising that it didn't work out. 2017 4 Wayne Gallman 140 RB - Good back-up 2017 5 Avery Moss 167 DE - 5th round pass rusher that didn't work out. Nothing this late is a bad pick. But you hope to land a good pick this late once in a while 2017 6 Adam Bisnowaty 200 T - See Moss 2016 1 Eli Apple 10 CB - Really talented player. I liked him a lot among the CBs in the draft. Knew nothing about his head, which seems to be the problem. The Giants were also equally ill-equipped to help overcome that and take advantage of the talent. I feel this pick's lack of success was as much on the coaching staff as it was on the scouting staff. 2016 2 Sterling Shepard 40 WR - Good player. About what you hope to get in a 2nd round WR. 2016 3 Darian Thompson 71 S - For a scouting staff that often rated physical ability over play on the field, this was a surprising pick. Seems he just wasn't athletic enough. 2016 5 Paul Perkins 149 RB - Solid pick, that I think would have been better with a better OL. Would have been a nice piece to still have when SB and WG went down. 2016 6 Jerell Adams 184 TE - See Moss 2015 1 Ereck Flowers 9 T - Need pick all the way. Clear he was talented but had a long way to go. Didn't take to coaching here, either his issue or the staffs, doesn't matter. Could have been good if he worked at it. 2015 2 Landon Collins 33 S - Very good player, but limited. Would be nice to still have but not at the contract number he commanded. Surprised he doesn't love DG for letting him hit FA without a tag or anything. 2015 3 Owamagbe Odighizuwa 74 DE - Seemed like a steal at the time as injury concerns caused him to drop. Injuries stayed but good play didn't. Would like to get at least a role player in the 3rd. Wasn't even that. 2015 5 Mykkele Thompson 144 S - See Moss, but talk about an out of nowhere pick. Even Mykkele was surprised anyone drafted him. 2015 6 Geremy Davis 186 WR - See Moss 2015 7 Bobby Hart 226 G - 7th round OL still in the league? Pretty decent pick, but not someone you want to have to be forced to play at all. 2014 1 Odell Beckham 12 WR - Great player, great pick. His failings here were on everyone. Odel, the front office mis-handling him, the coaches unable to reign him in and keep him focused. Really a shame, but he had to go, as much for his own career as for the Giants to move forward. 2014 2 Weston Richburg 43 OL - Looked really good early on, just never seemed to improve. I thought that was on coaching, but he doesn't seem to be improving elsewhere either. Probably just a decent but limited player. 2014 3 Jay Bromley 74 DT - Player I liked as a 7th round flyer....3rd round was surprising. Not really even a role player. 2014 4 Andre Williams 113 RB - Bruising complementary back type, just wasn't skilled enough in vision or movement for the NFL. Pro scouts should have known this as many amateur scouts felt this way despite his gaudy college numbers. 2014 5 Nat Berhe 152 DB 2018 - See Moss...I thought Berhe would be a great ST player. 2014 5 Devon Kennard 174 DE - Shame to see him go when you finally found a good player late. But constant injuries got in his way here and I understand why they didn't want to spend money on a player who is unavailable so often. 2014 6 Bennett Jackson 187 DB - See Moss 2013 1 Justin Pugh 19 T - Solid player, would want more out of a first round OL. Injuries made him too pricey to keep. 2013 2 Johnathan Hankins 49 DT - Another good player. Got tired of them finding good DTs only to let them walk and have to keep replacing the same position over and over. 2013 3 Damontre Moore 81 DE 2018 - Gaudy pass rush numbers in college, but was more scheme driven. Much like Williams above, pro scouts should have known this. Again, not even a role player. Surprised he has bounced around the league for so long. Just wasn't good and had some locker room issues as well. 2013 4 Ryan Nassib 110 QB - Much like Webb, always worth taking a chance on a mid-late round QB. The reward is well worth the risk. Couple of seasons as cheap primary back-up to a player who always plays made this a really good pick. 2013 5 Cooper Taylor 152 DB - See Moss 2013 7 Eric Herman 225 OL - See Moss 2013 7 Michael Cox 253 RB - See Moss 2012 2 Rueben Randle 63 WR - Overly criticized player IMO. Though still not a good player. You aren't getting killed with this guy as your thrid, but you would hope to do better real soon. If he was a late rounder it would be a great pick. 2012 3 Jayron Hosley 94 DB - Not even a role player. 2012 4 Adrien Robinson 127 TE - LOL....god...JPP of TEs. Once again, even if he could have been a decent special teams player it would have been a decent pick. 2012 4 Brandon Mosley 131 T - Looked like a good player gotten late. No idea what his issues were getting on the field, but just wasn't good enough. Hoping for at least a back-up here. 2012 6 Matt McCants 201 T - Turned into a good T in the NFL with a bunch of starts. So good pick, bad roster decision I guess. 2012 7 Markus Kuhn - See Moss Not too many issues with the individual picks, but a lot of the same mistakes year after year. Not surprising that picks after the 2nd round don't become much in the way of NFL players. That is normal. But you would think you could hit on a few more 3-7 round picks than they did. I think the culture thing is over rated. I can't think of any moves that were purportedly made in the name of culture improvement that I either disagree with (excluding the Beckham trade) or were detrimental to the team's overall success. Harrison Vernon, Apple, c'mon let's cut the crap none of those players are difference makers in any way.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 14, 2019 16:20:15 GMT -5
The Giants don't owe Eli anything and to suggest otherwise is "asinine and naive".. They should've cut him after they drafted Jones but here they are with him riding the bench and another 40 million playing for other teams.. The comical thing is that people have now changed to thinking they can win the division after the Eagles and Cowboys lose a game.. Friday morning to Monday morning has some fans flip flopping as good as a politician.. That 40 million was by Reese and I will ask you what I asked MH. Do you keep the high price players who aren't playing or do you cut your loss's and get good football players? As for Eli yes they owe him if for nothing else than the beating he has taken from a bad O line and for the team wasting his prime years but they committed to Eli "before they had Jones" and I doubt even though they liked Jones anyone thought he would pick up everything as fast as he has. As others have pointed out the Giants weren't going to sign anyone with Eli's money anyway. As for talking about being a game out of first I tend to agree with you but it's nice to be able to have the team in the conversation as oppose to the last few years isn't it? Not really Red. $16MM of it was Odell all by himself. That is on Dave. He signed him. $3M is Omameh....also on Dave.
Other than Odell, he decided to trade Vernon and Snacks.. They were starting players for us. Those two are over $11M in dead money. Apple (who is a starting CB on a very good defense) was another $2+MM.
Over $20MM is directly on Dave. Guys HE signed then dumped. The other $18MM or so are guys who were starting for us and Dave dumped.
So to say the $40MM is on JR really misses the mark.
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Post by jmike on Oct 14, 2019 16:24:16 GMT -5
Not too many issues with the individual picks, but a lot of the same mistakes year after year. Not surprising that picks after the 2nd round don't become much in the way of NFL players. That is normal. But you would think you could hit on a few more 3-7 round picks than they did. I think the culture thing is over rated. I can't think of any moves that were purportedly made in the name of culture improvement that I either disagree with (excluding the Beckham trade) or were detrimental to the team's overall success. Harrison Vernon, Apple, c'mon let's cut the crap none of those players are difference makers in any way. IDK, I think that they are currently avoiding players that may have some questionable attitude issues. Harrison, Vernon and Apple are all football decisions IMO. As great a player as OBJ is, his attitude was clearly not about winning first. No matter what he says. I think he even genuinely believes that he cares about winning first. His actions simply don't show that IMO. If this team was winning, I don't think his issues would have been a problem. But with the state of the team and the manner in which he opens his mouth, he was detrimental to the locker room. He worked hard, he was well respected and liked by his teammates and he is a great player. When other players see his comments, particularly young players, it is hard to get them to buy in when this star player is saying all these things are wrong with the team. We have all worked with that person who complains about our employer constantly. If that person is a position of leadership, it has a direct negative effect on the other people at work. Particularly anyone new. When I was in a position of leadership, yes I was just a server but I was the lead server, we had other servers with bad attitudes at times. Some of them were actually good workers and we were able to deal with that because they were not servers other people looked up to. They were not people who new employees saw as one to respect. So they were tolerated because they were actually good at their job and their attitude only effected them for the most part. And when it did effect others, nobody had an issue correcting that. Any group of people that need to work together to accomplish things works best when the respected members of the group buy into the mission and direction. It will never succeed if they do not. OBJ relatively minor issues were amplified because he is so good and thus were a problem for the "culture" of the team. Anybody who has ever worked in a group environment or played team sports, I would think, could easily see what the issue may have been with him. Now much of the blame for that falls squarely on Coughlin, Reese, McAdoo, Gettleman, Shurmer and Mara for not getting OBJ to buy in or addressing his issues in a productive manner early on. That shows a lack of leadership on their part IMO. But much of it was and continues to be a lack of maturity in OBJ as well.
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Post by jmike on Oct 14, 2019 16:28:03 GMT -5
That 40 million was by Reese and I will ask you what I asked MH. Do you keep the high price players who aren't playing or do you cut your loss's and get good football players? As for Eli yes they owe him if for nothing else than the beating he has taken from a bad O line and for the team wasting his prime years but they committed to Eli "before they had Jones" and I doubt even though they liked Jones anyone thought he would pick up everything as fast as he has. As others have pointed out the Giants weren't going to sign anyone with Eli's money anyway. As for talking about being a game out of first I tend to agree with you but it's nice to be able to have the team in the conversation as oppose to the last few years isn't it? Not really Red. $16MM of it was Odell all by himself. That is on Dave. He signed him. $3M is Omameh....also on Dave.
Other than Odell, he decided to trade Vernon and Snacks.. They were starting players for us. Those two are over $11M in dead money. Apple (who is a starting CB on a very good defense) was another $2+MM.
Over $20MM is directly on Dave. Guys HE signed then dumped. The other $18MM or so are guys who were starting for us and Dave dumped.
So to say the $40MM is on JR really misses the mark.
Except for signing OBJ (which looked like a good idea at the time) and signing Omameh (clearly poor evaluation on that); those were all good decisions IMO.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 14, 2019 16:30:18 GMT -5
Not really Red. $16MM of it was Odell all by himself. That is on Dave. He signed him. $3M is Omameh....also on Dave.
Other than Odell, he decided to trade Vernon and Snacks.. They were starting players for us. Those two are over $11M in dead money. Apple (who is a starting CB on a very good defense) was another $2+MM.
Over $20MM is directly on Dave. Guys HE signed then dumped. The other $18MM or so are guys who were starting for us and Dave dumped.
So to say the $40MM is on JR really misses the mark.
Except for signing OBJ (which looked like a good idea at the time) and signing Omameh (clearly poor evaluation on that); those were all good decisions IMO. So JR is to blame for Dave's signing of Odell and Omameh?
Dave's not responsible for his own decisions?
An odd take if you believe that.
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Post by jmike on Oct 14, 2019 16:41:59 GMT -5
Except for signing OBJ (which looked like a good idea at the time) and signing Omameh (clearly poor evaluation on that); those were all good decisions IMO. So JR is to blame for Dave's signing of Odell and Omameh?
Dave's not responsible for his own decisions?
An odd take if you believe that.
No, I didn't say that. Not sure how you derived that conclusion. I think DG has made some bad decisions. I think he has made many more good decisions. Reese is gone after driving a championship team into mess; I don't particularly care about what he's done anymore. We are just cleaning the mess he left now, doesn't matter much how it got there. Unfortunately, our current GM is not perfect. He has made some mistakes and will likely make a few more. But so long as he continues to make more good than bad, I think the team will get better.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 14, 2019 16:50:46 GMT -5
So JR is to blame for Dave's signing of Odell and Omameh?
Dave's not responsible for his own decisions?
An odd take if you believe that.
No, I didn't say that. Not sure how you derived that conclusion. I think DG has made some bad decisions. I think he has made many more good decisions. Reese is gone after driving a championship team into mess; I don't particularly care about what he's done anymore. We are just cleaning the mess he left now, doesn't matter much how it got there. Unfortunately, our current GM is not perfect. He has made some mistakes and will likely make a few more. But so long as he continues to make more good than bad, I think the team will get better. The bottom line is that Dave put us in cap hell with all this dead cap space. It's made it impossible to have any real veteran depth. So when guys get hurt, and they always do, we have many guys who've essentially never played NFL football to step in.
If you think Dave has made many more good decisions than not....that's fine with me. But he IS responsible for this bad cap problem. It's a product of HIS decisions. Not sure why you would try to deflect his responsibility a few posts ago. The "it seemed a good decision at the time" argument is weak.
So far what I see from Dave is a pretty good drafter and a very questionable team builder.
Player evaluation....Good. Strategizing on how to build a team.........Not so much. Certainly the jury is still out.
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southerner
Starter
Bearer of Bad News
Posts: 4,217
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Post by southerner on Oct 14, 2019 17:02:27 GMT -5
No, I didn't say that. Not sure how you derived that conclusion. I think DG has made some bad decisions. I think he has made many more good decisions. Reese is gone after driving a championship team into mess; I don't particularly care about what he's done anymore. We are just cleaning the mess he left now, doesn't matter much how it got there. Unfortunately, our current GM is not perfect. He has made some mistakes and will likely make a few more. But so long as he continues to make more good than bad, I think the team will get better. The bottom line is that Dave put us in cap hell with all this dead cap space. It's made it impossible to have any real veteran depth. So when guys get hurt, and they always do, we have many guys who've essentially never played NFL football to step in.
If you think Dave has made many more good decisions than not....that's fine with me. But he IS responsible for this bad cap problem. It's a product of HIS decisions. Not sure why you would try to deflect his responsibility a few posts ago. The "it seemed a good decision at the time" argument is weak.
So far what I see from Dave is a pretty good drafter and a very questionable team builder.
Player evaluation....Good. Strategizing on how to build a team.........Not so much. Certainly the jury is still out.
Wow! You just keep digging that hole deeper and deeper. The more say, the less anyone listens. No problem, you can get in line with the other tin foil hat wearers and continue to defend Reese while attacking the GM that got the Giants Saquon, Jones and plethora of good players, and will give the Giants the first large cap surplus in a long time.....and he did it in less than 1 and half years. By the way, signing Odell got the Giants 3 front line starters that are certainly worth much more than the dead money in this year’s cap.....but of course you will refuse to acknowledge that or even consider it....oh well....keep on digging!
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Post by repeatchamps on Oct 14, 2019 17:17:44 GMT -5
The bottom line is that Dave put us in cap hell with all this dead cap space. It's made it impossible to have any real veteran depth. So when guys get hurt, and they always do, we have many guys who've essentially never played NFL football to step in.
If you think Dave has made many more good decisions than not....that's fine with me. But he IS responsible for this bad cap problem. It's a product of HIS decisions. Not sure why you would try to deflect his responsibility a few posts ago. The "it seemed a good decision at the time" argument is weak.
So far what I see from Dave is a pretty good drafter and a very questionable team builder.
Player evaluation....Good. Strategizing on how to build a team.........Not so much. Certainly the jury is still out.
Wow! You just keep digging that hole deeper and deeper. The more say, the less anyone listens. No problem, you can get in line with the other tin foil hat wearers and continue to defend Reese while attacking the GM that got the Giants Saquon, Jones and plethora of good players, and will give the Giants the first large cap surplus in a long time.....and he did it in less than 1 and half years. By the way, signing Odell got the Giants 3 front line starters that are certainly worth much more than the dead money in this year’s cap.....but of course you will refuse to acknowledge that or even consider it....oh well....keep on digging! Just so everyone is clear, yes trading OBJ yielded the Giants some dead cap money this year but got them Jabrill Peppers, Dexter Lawrence and Oshane Ximines. Time will tell but I think that will work out better for the NY Giants.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 14, 2019 18:43:01 GMT -5
The bottom line is that Dave put us in cap hell with all this dead cap space. It's made it impossible to have any real veteran depth. So when guys get hurt, and they always do, we have many guys who've essentially never played NFL football to step in.
If you think Dave has made many more good decisions than not....that's fine with me. But he IS responsible for this bad cap problem. It's a product of HIS decisions. Not sure why you would try to deflect his responsibility a few posts ago. The "it seemed a good decision at the time" argument is weak.
So far what I see from Dave is a pretty good drafter and a very questionable team builder.
Player evaluation....Good. Strategizing on how to build a team.........Not so much. Certainly the jury is still out.
Wow! You just keep digging that hole deeper and deeper. The more say, the less anyone listens. No problem, you can get in line with the other tin foil hat wearers and continue to defend Reese while attacking the GM that got the Giants Saquon, Jones and plethora of good players, and will give the Giants the first large cap surplus in a long time.....and he did it in less than 1 and half years. By the way, signing Odell got the Giants 3 front line starters that are certainly worth much more than the dead money in this year’s cap.....but of course you will refuse to acknowledge that or even consider it....oh well....keep on digging! You're kind of unpleasant. I'll include you in my prayers tonight.
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Post by Delicreep on Oct 14, 2019 19:34:25 GMT -5
No, I didn't say that. Not sure how you derived that conclusion. I think DG has made some bad decisions. I think he has made many more good decisions. Reese is gone after driving a championship team into mess; I don't particularly care about what he's done anymore. We are just cleaning the mess he left now, doesn't matter much how it got there. Unfortunately, our current GM is not perfect. He has made some mistakes and will likely make a few more. But so long as he continues to make more good than bad, I think the team will get better. The bottom line is that Dave put us in cap hell with all this dead cap space. It's made it impossible to have any real veteran depth. So when guys get hurt, and they always do, we have many guys who've essentially never played NFL football to step in.
If you think Dave has made many more good decisions than not....that's fine with me. But he IS responsible for this bad cap problem. It's a product of HIS decisions. Not sure why you would try to deflect his responsibility a few posts ago. The "it seemed a good decision at the time" argument is weak.
So far what I see from Dave is a pretty good drafter and a very questionable team builder.
Player evaluation....Good. Strategizing on how to build a team.........Not so much. Certainly the jury is still out.
Vernon. DG traded him to the Browns. His 2019 Cap number is $15.5 million. And an open question as to him fitting in Bettchers plans. Would you consider him being worth $15.5 million in a system described as "ill fitting"?If the answer is no, and it should be, then what do you do with him? You can try and renegotiate, but he has little reason to do so, and you are still left with the "ill fitting" part You can cut him with little cap pain. Or you can trade him for a position of need.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 14, 2019 20:35:36 GMT -5
The bottom line is that Dave put us in cap hell with all this dead cap space. It's made it impossible to have any real veteran depth. So when guys get hurt, and they always do, we have many guys who've essentially never played NFL football to step in.
If you think Dave has made many more good decisions than not....that's fine with me. But he IS responsible for this bad cap problem. It's a product of HIS decisions. Not sure why you would try to deflect his responsibility a few posts ago. The "it seemed a good decision at the time" argument is weak.
So far what I see from Dave is a pretty good drafter and a very questionable team builder.
Player evaluation....Good. Strategizing on how to build a team.........Not so much. Certainly the jury is still out.
Vernon. DG traded him to the Browns. His 2019 Cap number is $15.5 million. And an open question as to him fitting in Bettchers plans. Would you consider him being worth $15.5 million in a system described as "ill fitting"?If the answer is no, and it should be, then what do you do with him? You can try and renegotiate, but he has little reason to do so, and you are still left with the "ill fitting" part You can cut him with little cap pain. Or you can trade him for a position of need. I liked that trade. Zeitler is a better player. But adding that to the Odell trade, itput us behind the 8 ball cap wise.
But to answer your question about his fit.......I think Vernon is a much more effective player in a 3-4 as an OLB than a 4-3 as a DE.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Oct 14, 2019 20:43:29 GMT -5
The bottom line is that Dave put us in cap hell with all this dead cap space. It's made it impossible to have any real veteran depth. So when guys get hurt, and they always do, we have many guys who've essentially never played NFL football to step in.
If you think Dave has made many more good decisions than not....that's fine with me. But he IS responsible for this bad cap problem. It's a product of HIS decisions. Not sure why you would try to deflect his responsibility a few posts ago. The "it seemed a good decision at the time" argument is weak.
So far what I see from Dave is a pretty good drafter and a very questionable team builder.
Player evaluation....Good. Strategizing on how to build a team.........Not so much. Certainly the jury is still out.
Vernon. DG traded him to the Browns. His 2019 Cap number is $15.5 million. And an open question as to him fitting in Bettchers plans. Would you consider him being worth $15.5 million in a system described as "ill fitting"?If the answer is no, and it should be, then what do you do with him? You can try and renegotiate, but he has little reason to do so, and you are still left with the "ill fitting" part You can cut him with little cap pain. Or you can trade him for a position of need. Deli he wasn't worth 15 mill in any system he never not once in his career was anything but average to slightly above average, he was never a feared pass rusher and was OK against the run he was going to be cut in a odd man front or and even man front. Your point just adds more reasoning to part ways but he was going no matter what system they ran.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Oct 14, 2019 20:45:06 GMT -5
Vernon. DG traded him to the Browns. His 2019 Cap number is $15.5 million. And an open question as to him fitting in Bettchers plans. Would you consider him being worth $15.5 million in a system described as "ill fitting"?If the answer is no, and it should be, then what do you do with him? You can try and renegotiate, but he has little reason to do so, and you are still left with the "ill fitting" part You can cut him with little cap pain. Or you can trade him for a position of need. I liked that trade. Zeitler is a better player. But adding that to the Odell trade, itput us behind the 8 ball cap wise.
But to answer your question about his fit.......I think Vernon is a much more effective player in a 3-4 as an OLB than a 4-3 as a DE.
He played in both here and in Miami he was always an average to slightly above average player in Miami and while here.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 14, 2019 20:51:29 GMT -5
I liked that trade. Zeitler is a better player. But adding that to the Odell trade, itput us behind the 8 ball cap wise.
But to answer your question about his fit.......I think Vernon is a much more effective player in a 3-4 as an OLB than a 4-3 as a DE.
He played in both here and in Miami he was always an average to slightly above average player in Miami and while here. As I said...I liked the trade.
but I did like Vernon. I thought he was sideline to sideline and was always around the ball. I also thought he was a better fit in Bettcher's defense.
Zietler is a really good guard though and we needed him. He's really the anchor of our O line.
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Post by Delicreep on Oct 14, 2019 20:56:17 GMT -5
Vernon. DG traded him to the Browns. His 2019 Cap number is $15.5 million. And an open question as to him fitting in Bettchers plans. Would you consider him being worth $15.5 million in a system described as "ill fitting"?If the answer is no, and it should be, then what do you do with him? You can try and renegotiate, but he has little reason to do so, and you are still left with the "ill fitting" part You can cut him with little cap pain. Or you can trade him for a position of need. I liked that trade. Zeitler is a better player. But adding that to the Odell trade, itput us behind the 8 ball cap wise.
But to answer your question about his fit.......I think Vernon is a much more effective player in a 3-4 as an OLB than a 4-3 as a DE.
The Odell trade cost us dearly, cap wise.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Oct 14, 2019 21:08:41 GMT -5
He played in both here and in Miami he was always an average to slightly above average player in Miami and while here. As I said...I liked the trade.
but I did like Vernon. I thought he was sideline to sideline and was always around the ball. I also thought he was a better fit in Bettcher's defense.
Zietler is a really good guard though and we needed him. He's really the anchor of our O line.
Liked OV as a player the only problem I had with his situation is he just wasn't worth the money but that is life when you shop the free agent market, as far as OV goes he was a lucky dog when he came up for free agency there wasn't much out there as far as edge guys go think he was it.
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Post by GameTime on Oct 14, 2019 21:14:19 GMT -5
last time I checked the Giants have sucked for years. The 11-5 season was a good one.
now all of a sudden the suck because of DG?
I dont think so. Most, if not all teams, go through "cap hell".
Next season they will be out of cap hell, have the future franchise QB with 14 games under his belt, a good core of young players and money to spend. Sounds pretty good to me.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Oct 14, 2019 21:15:12 GMT -5
Vernon. DG traded him to the Browns. His 2019 Cap number is $15.5 million. And an open question as to him fitting in Bettchers plans. Would you consider him being worth $15.5 million in a system described as "ill fitting"?If the answer is no, and it should be, then what do you do with him? You can try and renegotiate, but he has little reason to do so, and you are still left with the "ill fitting" part You can cut him with little cap pain. Or you can trade him for a position of need. I liked that trade. Zeitler is a better player. But adding that to the Odell trade, itput us behind the 8 ball cap wise.
But to answer your question about his fit.......I think Vernon is a much more effective player in a 3-4 as an OLB than a 4-3 as a DE.
Adding that to the OBJ trade got us our 4th rounder back that turned in Xman, the original trade had OV and our 4th rounder for Zietler, the Browns were taking on a lot of salary with him he is one of their biggest if not the biggest contract they have.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Oct 14, 2019 21:20:27 GMT -5
last time I checked the Giants have sucked for years. The 11-5 season was a good one. now all of a sudden the suck because of DG? I dont think so. Most, if not all teams, go through "cap hell". Next season they will be out of cap hell, have the future franchise QB with 14 games under his belt, a good core of young players and money to spend. Sounds pretty good to me. There is no easy way out you have to pay for your sins. At this point the Giants have done that. Special teams good, OL good, pass rush better, running game good, cap good, the boxes are getting checked, not a full 2 years yet lots of boxes checked tho.
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Post by krappdetector on Oct 14, 2019 22:51:12 GMT -5
Here is why this team has sucked for years, starting in the second half of the 2012 season, because from 2009 to 2017 they drafted 2 impact players and ones impact lasted about 2 years JPP and OBJ that is 8 years and you can count the prowlers on half a hand LOL but the Reese guys are trying to blame DG for that, it is gonna take more then 20 months to fix 8 years of bad drafting, I didn't even talk about the foolish free agent desperation splurge that in the end only came back to bite them, last but not least 8 years of 0 accountability 0 competition to challenge slumping draft pick, a GM that through coaches and players under the bus who then hired his coach who threw players under the bus, it's to soon to shift blame from the rightful culprit at the end of 4 years if DG has this team as #$%@ up as Reese made it then have at it I will, this is still JRs mess that is being untangled. Can you occasionally use a period? Thanks. Thank YOU. I block that poster not because he's a bad guy or because I have an axe to grind but because I don't have the energy to untangle his posts!
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Post by jmike on Oct 15, 2019 8:10:47 GMT -5
No, I didn't say that. Not sure how you derived that conclusion. I think DG has made some bad decisions. I think he has made many more good decisions. Reese is gone after driving a championship team into mess; I don't particularly care about what he's done anymore. We are just cleaning the mess he left now, doesn't matter much how it got there. Unfortunately, our current GM is not perfect. He has made some mistakes and will likely make a few more. But so long as he continues to make more good than bad, I think the team will get better. The bottom line is that Dave put us in cap hell with all this dead cap space. It's made it impossible to have any real veteran depth. So when guys get hurt, and they always do, we have many guys who've essentially never played NFL football to step in.
If you think Dave has made many more good decisions than not....that's fine with me. But he IS responsible for this bad cap problem. It's a product of HIS decisions. Not sure why you would try to deflect his responsibility a few posts ago. The "it seemed a good decision at the time" argument is weak.
So far what I see from Dave is a pretty good drafter and a very questionable team builder.
Player evaluation....Good. Strategizing on how to build a team.........Not so much. Certainly the jury is still out.
OK, you must be reading things that you imagined I wrote. I never stated that DG is not responsible for the current state of the cap. Since it was his decisions lead to the current cap situation. It gets really exhausting speaking with someone who keeps making up phantom statements by me. It wasn't a defelection, it was a statement of reality. Signing OBJ long term, you best player seemed like a good decision at the time. Some decisions that end up bad in the end don't look that way when you make them. The fact that he is willing to correct his bad decisions quickly is rather promising to me particularly since that was my biggest issue with our last GM, he would not do that. Also, considering the situation entering this past off season; putting us in this cap situation was probably the best decision he could have made. Sure it cost us some fringe back-up veteran depth that might have have made a difference between winning 5 games and winning 6. But long term with a rookie QB we should be in better shape. Provided he doesn't continue to make large contract errors like the ones to OBJ and Omemah. And manages to maintain roster talent so he doesn't have to sign desperation contracts like the ones to Solder and Ogletree. As far as is team building goes. I strongly disagree with you. He is addressing the lines first, which is the most important part of the game. We were never competitive after the OL and DL broke down regardless of skill position talent. That isn't some fluke, you win or lose in the trenches, I am thankful we have a GM that understands this.
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Post by jmike on Oct 15, 2019 8:15:30 GMT -5
I liked that trade. Zeitler is a better player. But adding that to the Odell trade, itput us behind the 8 ball cap wise.
But to answer your question about his fit.......I think Vernon is a much more effective player in a 3-4 as an OLB than a 4-3 as a DE.
The Odell trade cost us dearly, cap wise. Definitely did. I think they felt they could get him to buy in and committing to him long term would help that. It seems they underestimated him. Bad decision in the end but sound reasoning. Better to let him go now rather than allowing the situation to continue to deteriorate.
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Post by jmike on Oct 15, 2019 8:17:08 GMT -5
last time I checked the Giants have sucked for years. The 11-5 season was a good one. now all of a sudden the suck because of DG? I dont think so. Most, if not all teams, go through "cap hell". Next season they will be out of cap hell, have the future franchise QB with 14 games under his belt, a good core of young players and money to spend. Sounds pretty good to me. I just hope DG starts making better decisions on how to spend that FA money than he has so far, otherwise all that cap clearing won't do much.
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Post by Roswell on Oct 15, 2019 8:43:57 GMT -5
That 40 million was by Reese and I will ask you what I asked MH. Do you keep the high price players who aren't playing or do you cut your loss's and get good football players? As for Eli yes they owe him if for nothing else than the beating he has taken from a bad O line and for the team wasting his prime years but they committed to Eli "before they had Jones" and I doubt even though they liked Jones anyone thought he would pick up everything as fast as he has. As others have pointed out the Giants weren't going to sign anyone with Eli's money anyway. As for talking about being a game out of first I tend to agree with you but it's nice to be able to have the team in the conversation as oppose to the last few years isn't it? Not really Red. $16MM of it was Odell all by himself. That is on Dave. He signed him. $3M is Omameh....also on Dave.
Other than Odell, he decided to trade Vernon and Snacks.. They were starting players for us. Those two are over $11M in dead money. Apple (who is a starting CB on a very good defense) was another $2+MM.
Over $20MM is directly on Dave. Guys HE signed then dumped. The other $18MM or so are guys who were starting for us and Dave dumped.
So to say the $40MM is on JR really misses the mark.
I’m surprised you think any of the Beckham decisions weren’t made solely by the owner.
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