mendy
Starter
Posts: 4,124
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Post by mendy on May 1, 2024 14:34:10 GMT -5
He's not a difference maker QB so it's hard to put numbers on him. That said, if the Giants put up eleven wins or more with him at QB, I don't care about his stats. That aside this is what I expect: 3700 yrds passing 24 TDs 11 Ints 4 Rushing TDs 6.6yds/attempt Out of the gate I would like to mention I want Jones to succeed. I am not a huge fan at all but he is the QB unless Lock balls out. But the idea that Jones plays a full season is not likely based on his injury history. The stats you come up with are probably based on a full season. From 2019 to 2023 this shows that Lock might be playing a lot more than anticipated. I hope Lock continues to improve because as much as your stats are doable that means a full season which is highly unlikely. Dec 1, 2019 Pedal Ankle (high) Sprain Grade 3 Nov 29, 2020 Thigh Hamstring Strain Grade 2 Dec 13, 2020 Pedal Ankle Sprain Grade 2 Dec 16, 2020 Thigh Hamstring Strain Grade 2 Oct 10, 2021 Head Cranial Concussion Grade 1 Nov 28, 2021 Cervical Neck Strain Oct 2, 2022 Pedal Ankle Sprain/Pull Unspecified Grade 1 Oct 8, 2023 NFL Cervical Neck Nov 5, 2023 NFL Knee ACL Tear Grade 3 Hard to find a player on any team that didn't have some of those same "injuries". The sprains and the strains you mention between 2019 and 2020 are things players still play with.
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Post by bluebuddha on May 1, 2024 14:36:15 GMT -5
The mental gymnastics in this thread are good enough to break records at the Olympics.
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Post by Morehead State on May 1, 2024 14:56:22 GMT -5
I do remember you posting that! Lots of sacks are on him. Not giving the shitty oline a pass in any way. We don't know on what plays the initial injuries actually occurred. The knee as well as the neck injuries could've been result of damage suffered on an earlier play or combined plays. Taylor also suffered two serious injuries in limited playing time last year. So, to blame Jones and dismiss an OL that gave up a record 85 sacks in 2023 is absurd. Taylor got hurt doing what he does, run recklessly. But both backups were also facing heavy pressure, and they seemed to be far more productive than DJ.
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Post by idkaname on May 1, 2024 15:14:11 GMT -5
We don't know on what plays the initial injuries actually occurred. The knee as well as the neck injuries could've been result of damage suffered on an earlier play or combined plays. Taylor also suffered two serious injuries in limited playing time last year. So, to blame Jones and dismiss an OL that gave up a record 85 sacks in 2023 is absurd. Taylor got hurt doing what he does, run recklessly. But both backups were also facing heavy pressure, and they seemed to be far more productive than DJ.Saying it over and over doesn't make it any less of a lie. Stats don't support that claim and neither does the eye test. You must be an NFL Ref being you're so comfortable making false claims with 0 evidence
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Post by McCherry on May 1, 2024 15:18:23 GMT -5
We don't know on what plays the initial injuries actually occurred. The knee as well as the neck injuries could've been result of damage suffered on an earlier play or combined plays. Taylor also suffered two serious injuries in limited playing time last year. So, to blame Jones and dismiss an OL that gave up a record 85 sacks in 2023 is absurd. Taylor got hurt doing what he does, run recklessly. But both backups were also facing heavy pressure, and they seemed to be far more productive than DJ. Everyone has to run recklessly behind the Giants O-line. Yes, they were in context. But the situations the QB faced are not comparable. Neither Taylor nor DeVito are better Quarterbacks than Jones based simply on a handful of games.
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Post by Martin on May 1, 2024 16:23:54 GMT -5
Out of the gate I would like to mention I want Jones to succeed. I am not a huge fan at all but he is the QB unless Lock balls out. But the idea that Jones plays a full season is not likely based on his injury history. The stats you come up with are probably based on a full season. From 2019 to 2023 this shows that Lock might be playing a lot more than anticipated. I hope Lock continues to improve because as much as your stats are doable that means a full season which is highly unlikely. Dec 1, 2019 Pedal Ankle (high) Sprain Grade 3 Nov 29, 2020 Thigh Hamstring Strain Grade 2 Dec 13, 2020 Pedal Ankle Sprain Grade 2 Dec 16, 2020 Thigh Hamstring Strain Grade 2 Oct 10, 2021 Head Cranial Concussion Grade 1 Nov 28, 2021 Cervical Neck Strain Oct 2, 2022 Pedal Ankle Sprain/Pull Unspecified Grade 1 Oct 8, 2023 NFL Cervical Neck Nov 5, 2023 NFL Knee ACL Tear Grade 3 Hard to find a player on any team that didn't have some of those same "injuries". The sprains and the strains you mention between 2019 and 2020 are things players still play with. They all have there issues. The expectations of him playing a full season are very low based on history. None of us have a crystal ball though.
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Post by inconvenientruth on May 1, 2024 16:31:38 GMT -5
Hard to find a player on any team that didn't have some of those same "injuries". The sprains and the strains you mention between 2019 and 2020 are things players still play with. They all have there issues. The expectations of him playing a full season are very low based on history. None of us have a crystal ball though. one thing not discussed in this thread is... what if Lock outright beats him for Qb#1?
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Post by Martin on May 1, 2024 16:32:24 GMT -5
I do remember you posting that! Lots of sacks are on him. Not giving the shitty oline a pass in any way. We don't know on what plays the initial injuries actually occurred. The knee as well as the neck injuries could've been result of damage suffered on an earlier play or combined plays. Taylor also suffered two serious injuries in limited playing time last year. So, to blame Jones and dismiss an OL that gave up a record 85 sacks in 2023 is absurd. I didn't blame Jones for all his sacks. Of course that's absurd. But from my eye ball test I see lots of times he's late on the draw. He's a step behind what's happening. I believe a good QB in this league has eyes behind his head and the radar of a bat. Oh by the way I am not dismissing the shitty Oline but we have a combo between the two which was and has been ongoing. Lets hope the oline and Jones step it up. I worry about Jones playing even close to a full season. Hopefully he is great but I don't have that kind of faith in him.
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Post by Martin on May 1, 2024 16:35:30 GMT -5
They all have there issues. The expectations of him playing a full season are very low based on history. None of us have a crystal ball though. one thing not discussed in this thread is... what if Lock outright beats him for Qb#1? This is a possibility. I watched Phil Simms discussing Lock and how he was very positive on him and his play last year. Phil said the needle is absolutely headed up for him. Wouldn't that be something!
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Post by inconvenientruth on May 1, 2024 16:41:23 GMT -5
one thing not discussed in this thread is... what if Lock outright beats him for Qb#1? This is a possibility. I watched Phil Simms discussing Lock and how he was very positive on him and his play last year. Phil said the needle is absolutely headed up for him. Wouldn't that be something! Been watching Lock tape, he can throw it deep, and with much more velocity. I had no clue he's got this arm on him
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Post by McCherry on May 1, 2024 17:14:40 GMT -5
They all have there issues. The expectations of him playing a full season are very low based on history. None of us have a crystal ball though. one thing not discussed in this thread is... what if Lock outright beats him for Qb#1? Anything is possible, but aside from not being good in games, his issue is between the ears. He's struggled to grasp offenses, understand plays, even remember plays. I'm not sure how fixable that is. Players can take surprise leaps in the right place. Mayfield did last year, but he was a better QB. The Drew Lock we've seen to this point is not good. He'd have to really take leaps, and Jones would have to regress or not be available.
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Post by Fletch842 on May 1, 2024 17:22:26 GMT -5
one thing not discussed in this thread is... what if Lock outright beats him for Qb#1? Anything is possible, but aside from not being good in games, his issue is between the ears. He's struggled to grasp offenses, understand plays, even remember plays. I'm not sure how fixable that is. Players can take surprise leaps in the right place. Mayfield did last year, but he was a better QB. The Drew Lock we've seen to this point is not good. He'd have to really take leaps, and Jones would have to regress or not be available. I thought he looked pretty good in limited time last season, quite different then how he looked in Denver for sure.
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Post by Morehead State on May 1, 2024 17:59:46 GMT -5
one thing not discussed in this thread is... what if Lock outright beats him for Qb#1? Anything is possible, but aside from not being good in games, his issue is between the ears. He's struggled to grasp offenses, understand plays, even remember plays. I'm not sure how fixable that is.Players can take surprise leaps in the right place. Mayfield did last year, but he was a better QB. The Drew Lock we've seen to this point is not good. He'd have to really take leaps, and Jones would have to regress or not be available. ....and we already have one of those. And I thought Baker Mayfield looked like Baker Mayfield. He looked like he did in Cleveland when his shoulder wasn't separated.
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miss86
Special Teams
Posts: 456
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Post by miss86 on May 1, 2024 18:24:45 GMT -5
To me. It's all up to DJ now. I have no expectations. There are no more excuses. I believe the Giants did wreck him though with the lack of offensive weapons and protection they put around him. He was never going to be Mahomes or Brady. He needed support to thrive. The Giants just sucked as a team for years. The Giants screwed up Eli's remaining years.
DJ will have to learn to throw from the pocket, because his wheels are damaged. Can he? He won't be able to depend on his legs. Or I'd be really surprised if he can. I had ACL surgery, but that was 15 years ago. It took a year for me to run on it. But, I was not a 26yo athlete at the time of the surgery. The surgeons today probably have it down to a procedural science now.
Bottom line, I have absolutely no idea how DJ will perform this season. I will root for him. If he doesn't cut it, time to cut our loses and move on. GO GIANTS!
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Post by DJones19 on May 1, 2024 18:31:02 GMT -5
The sky is the limit for the Jones. Successful coaches like Daboll wouldn't take any opportunity that comes his way. Daboll must have seen Josh in Danny, I saw Danny as the QB that could cement his legacy as a QB whisperer. Look at these spider charts. If I didn't see the names, I might think these charts are of 2 brothers. As a scout you want a QB with a full web - and Josh and Danny are the uncommon type of QB blessed with that. Danny and Josh have very similar webs - they are of the same breed. The breed called prototype. Other QBs of the same breed are Justin Herbert, Andrew Luck, and Josh Allen, these thoroughbreds don't come around often. DJ web: Josh Web: And as you see the closest QBs to Josh in terms of measurables are: Andrew Luck, Justin Herbert, Daniel Jones, Joe Milton.
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Post by McCherry on May 1, 2024 19:06:20 GMT -5
Anything is possible, but aside from not being good in games, his issue is between the ears. He's struggled to grasp offenses, understand plays, even remember plays. I'm not sure how fixable that is.Players can take surprise leaps in the right place. Mayfield did last year, but he was a better QB. The Drew Lock we've seen to this point is not good. He'd have to really take leaps, and Jones would have to regress or not be available. ....and we already have one of those. You lost me there. Jones has never had a problem with learning and understand the playbook. Execution, is another story.
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Post by Morehead State on May 1, 2024 19:14:12 GMT -5
....and we already have one of those. You lost me there. Jones has never had a problem with learning and understand the playbook. Execution, is another story. Until the ball is snapped. Then his mind is mush.
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Post by Martin on May 1, 2024 19:19:38 GMT -5
The sky is the limit for the Jones. Successful coaches like Daboll wouldn't take any opportunity that comes his way. Daboll must have seen Josh in Danny, I saw Danny as the QB that could cement his legacy as a QB whisperer. Look at these spider charts. If I didn't see the names, I might think these charts are of 2 brothers. As a scout you want a QB with a full web - and Josh and Danny are the uncommon type of QB blessed with that. Danny and Josh have very similar webs - they are of the same breed. The breed called prototype. Other QBs of the same breed are Justin Herbert, Andrew Luck, and Josh Allen, these thoroughbreds don't come around often. DJ web: Josh Web: And as you see the closest QBs to Josh in terms of measurables are: Andrew Luck, Justin Herbert, Daniel Jones, Joe Milton. [img src="https://i.imgur.com/lvCCtY1.png" If Dabol was so sure about Jones why did he and Schoen try to grab Maye from NE? That's not a vote of confidence in my book.
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Post by piddy283 on May 1, 2024 19:31:45 GMT -5
If history is any indication, I’m expecting a ~$50M cap hit in 2025. QB hell for two more years. If he stays healthy, there’s no reason why DJ shouldn’t have his best year yet.
Adding Nabers gives us a bonafide WR1. His impact should make DJ’s life easier and it should open things up for the other WRs. Slayton’s and Hyatt’s speed vs. CB2’s and CB3’s should be an advantage most weeks. Add in Robinson, Bellinger, and Johnson roaming the middle, and we appear to finally have a well-rounded passing attack.
If we’re talking rankings, I’ve said that DJ’s ceiling when everything around him is “perfect” floats around the QB12 range. A mid tier-2 QB if we were to simply divide the number of starters evenly into four tiers.
If we’re talking stats, let’s say….. - Passing: 3,600yds, 22TDs, 10INTs - Rushing: 550yds, 8TDs, 2 fumbles
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Post by bluebuddha on May 1, 2024 19:35:03 GMT -5
Daniel Jones is the guy at work everyone likes. Good worker ,comes in on time, stays late, helps everyone out. The problems is he makes one mistake everyday. He can do the simple tasks but the moment you leave by himself with a bigger task he makes the one decision that not everyone else would make in that situation. He does this often enough that people on his team question his critical thinking skills.
He will be relegated to a floater who helps out day to day tasks and fill in when people are out. He will eventually leave because he never gets a raise. You have to still find someone to train up to do the job he was supposed to do.
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Post by IrishMike on May 1, 2024 20:09:51 GMT -5
Very low. Even our best years with SB teams and a HOF QB we usually don't finish that good lol.
Ask me in August and I'll be predicting 16-1 as our record. It's the same way I make plans for how to spend my Mega Millions winnings before the numbers are drawn.
Atta boy! I Ike that. And without a W-L record like that, nobody is in any MVP conversations. Honestly why be sad and down about our team BEFORE the harsh reality of a season sets in? I expect the best from everyone. Nabers will be the next Odell and Jones will look like the second half in Arizona every game, Burns/Thibs/Dex are the new Strahan/Osi/Tuck. Let's GO!
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Modog
Special Teams
Posts: 1,205
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Post by Modog on May 1, 2024 20:11:12 GMT -5
To me. It's all up to DJ now. I have no expectations. There are no more excuses. I believe the Giants did wreck him though with the lack of offensive weapons and protection they put around him. He was never going to be Mahomes or Brady. He needed support to thrive. The Giants just sucked as a team for years. The Giants screwed up Eli's remaining years. DJ will have to learn to throw from the pocket, because his wheels are damaged. Can he? He won't be able to depend on his legs. Or I'd be really surprised if he can. I had ACL surgery, but that was 15 years ago. It took a year for me to run on it. But, I was not a 26yo athlete at the time of the surgery. The surgeons today probably have it down to a procedural science now. Bottom line, I have absolutely no idea how DJ will perform this season. I will root for him. If he doesn't cut it, time to cut our loses and move on. GO GIANTS! In order to wreck him, he had to have some talent or promise in the first place. Take a look at his play and stats at Duke, then read his college scouting report. He has the same glaring faults he has always had.
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Post by inconvenientruth on May 2, 2024 9:45:21 GMT -5
one thing not discussed in this thread is... what if Lock outright beats him for Qb#1? Anything is possible, but aside from not being good in games, his issue is between the ears. He's struggled to grasp offenses, understand plays, even remember plays. I'm not sure how fixable that is. Players can take surprise leaps in the right place. Mayfield did last year, but he was a better QB. The Drew Lock we've seen to this point is not good. He'd have to really take leaps, and Jones would have to regress or not be available. I suspect if there play is similar, which i suspect it will be. The Giants will healthy scratch Jones at some point during rather than giving him another $50MM guaranteed in 2025-2026. lets see how it plays out. Lock @ $5MM >>>>>>>>>> DJ at $47.1 MM
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Post by McCherry on May 2, 2024 9:55:56 GMT -5
Anything is possible, but aside from not being good in games, his issue is between the ears. He's struggled to grasp offenses, understand plays, even remember plays. I'm not sure how fixable that is. Players can take surprise leaps in the right place. Mayfield did last year, but he was a better QB. The Drew Lock we've seen to this point is not good. He'd have to really take leaps, and Jones would have to regress or not be available. I suspect if there play is similar, which i suspect it will be. The Giants will healthy scratch Jones at some point during rather than giving him another $50MM guaranteed in 2025-2026. lets see how it plays out. Lock @ $5MM >>>>>>>>>> DJ at $47.1 MM That's not how it works. He has a $30M base salary in 2025. $23M of that salary was guaranteed for injury. So if he has an injury that prevents him from passing a physical and they cut him, he's due that $23M. Teams don't make decisions that impact the outcome of their season based on an injury clause. They will play the best QB.
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Post by inconvenientruth on May 2, 2024 10:11:24 GMT -5
I suspect if there play is similar, which i suspect it will be. The Giants will healthy scratch Jones at some point during rather than giving him another $50MM guaranteed in 2025-2026. lets see how it plays out. Lock @ $5MM >>>>>>>>>> DJ at $47.1 MM That's not how it works. He has a $30M base salary in 2025. $23M of that salary was guaranteed for injury. So if he has an injury that prevents him from passing a physical and they cut him, he's due that $23M. Teams don't make decisions that impact the outcome of their season based on an injury clause. They will play the best QB. You think Daboll wants a guy that throws downfield? or captain check-down who can't get off of his first read? and now, wont be the same runner? Jones is going to be comically easy to defend next year. The entire league knows who/what he is. Well, except Giants fans. Jones has been hurt in 4 of 5 seasons, to pretend like this isn't a intrinsic risk for the Giants is being disingenuous. The opportunity cost of having to invest another $20MM into a sunk cost rather than the roster is massive for Schoen, if it isn't? he will be fired if it backfires. I know the favorite part of the Jones deal was the 2-year out for Jones fans (which in itself is comical) but dragging this out another year when the NFL clearly sees Jones deal as an outlier will be an interesting way to go about it for our FO. Whos 'plan' seems to change with the wind. Lets see what happens, excuses only go so far. Will we get results?
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Post by imgrate on May 2, 2024 10:17:58 GMT -5
I suspect if there play is similar, which i suspect it will be. The Giants will healthy scratch Jones at some point during rather than giving him another $50MM guaranteed in 2025-2026. lets see how it plays out. Lock @ $5MM >>>>>>>>>> DJ at $47.1 MM That's not how it works. He has a $30M base salary in 2025. $23M of that salary was guaranteed for injury. So if he has an injury that prevents him from passing a physical and they cut him, he's due that $23M. Teams don't make decisions that impact the outcome of their season based on an injury clause. They will play the best QB. Two teams have benched a QB in the last two seasons, strictly due to their injury clauses
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Post by McCherry on May 2, 2024 10:21:47 GMT -5
That's not how it works. He has a $30M base salary in 2025. $23M of that salary was guaranteed for injury. So if he has an injury that prevents him from passing a physical and they cut him, he's due that $23M. Teams don't make decisions that impact the outcome of their season based on an injury clause. They will play the best QB. You think Daboll wants a guy that throws downfield? or captain check-down who can't get off of his first read? and now, wont be the same runner? Jones is going to be comically easy to defend next year. The entire league knows who/what he is. Well, except Giants fans. Jones has been hurt in 4 of 5 seasons, to pretend like this isn't a intrinsic risk for the Giants is being disingenuous. The opportunity cost of having to invest another $20MM into a sunk cost rather than the roster is massive for Schoen, if it isn't? he will be fired if it backfires. Lets see what happens. His durability is a question, but based on recent personnel moves they clearly don't share the opinion that he can't be successful in this offense.
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Post by inconvenientruth on May 2, 2024 10:22:39 GMT -5
You think Daboll wants a guy that throws downfield? or captain check-down who can't get off of his first read? and now, wont be the same runner? Jones is going to be comically easy to defend next year. The entire league knows who/what he is. Well, except Giants fans. Jones has been hurt in 4 of 5 seasons, to pretend like this isn't a intrinsic risk for the Giants is being disingenuous. The opportunity cost of having to invest another $20MM into a sunk cost rather than the roster is massive for Schoen, if it isn't? he will be fired if it backfires. Lets see what happens. His durability is a question, but based on recent personnel moves they clearly don't share the opinion that he can't be successful in this offense. Success? this team looked better with Tyrod/Devitto with the same supporting cast, and the NFL clearly see's the Jones deal as an outlier. what does that tell us? The tape out on Jones, he doesn't have a counter. BUT if this is their plan. Then they own the responsibility and ramifications for their decision. I believe its time to hold Schoen to the Jerry Reese level of expectations
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Post by McCherry on May 2, 2024 10:31:16 GMT -5
That's not how it works. He has a $30M base salary in 2025. $23M of that salary was guaranteed for injury. So if he has an injury that prevents him from passing a physical and they cut him, he's due that $23M. Teams don't make decisions that impact the outcome of their season based on an injury clause. They will play the best QB. Two teams have benched a QB in the last two seasons, strictly due to their injury clauses Not really... Wilson sat for only one game in week 17 after he wouldn't agree to updating his contract. Carr was benched for the final two weeks. That's a bit different than suggesting they just not play Jones.
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Post by Danke Schoen on May 2, 2024 10:32:39 GMT -5
I suspect if there play is similar, which i suspect it will be. The Giants will healthy scratch Jones at some point during rather than giving him another $50MM guaranteed in 2025-2026. lets see how it plays out. Lock @ $5MM >>>>>>>>>> DJ at $47.1 MM That's not how it works. He has a $30M base salary in 2025. $23M of that salary was guaranteed for injury. So if he has an injury that prevents him from passing a physical and they cut him, he's due that $23M. Teams don't make decisions that impact the outcome of their season based on an injury clause. They will play the best QB. In the past two seasons Derek Carr and Russell Wilson were benched to avoid the injury clause kicking in for the following year.
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